[00:00:00] Speaker A: Today's episode is brought to you by Peter T. Bonsai. Peter is my teacher, mentor and friend. And on his website, ptbonsai.com you can find copper wire, bonsai pots and bonsai trees. I highly recommend it. I feel like not enough people know about this awesome resource.
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Absolutely phenomenal wire.
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So I feel like there's not enough high quality bonsai trees in the United States.
A great spot to find really good trees is on his website. He's got deciduous, broadleaf, evergreen and conifers available.
Some of them you do have to purchase.
They're only available for pickup. But he does ship a wide variety of trees. He's got lots of trees for sale where you can buy them and he'll actually ship them to you in the United States.
The good ones go quick. So I recommend checking back on the regular super great resource for trees, copper wire and containers. Check it
[email protected] once again, that's ptbonsai.
[00:01:30] Speaker B: Comsai.
[00:01:39] Speaker C: Bonsai.
[00:01:42] Speaker B: The Black Pondo Podcast Bonsai Bonsai.
[00:01:45] Speaker C: Bonsai Bonsai Bonsai Bonsai the Black Pondo Podcast we're at my house here in Birmingham, Alabama.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: Awesome.
What are. Are you in your garage right now?
[00:02:00] Speaker C: Yeah, I guess it's a basement, but yeah. So my garage is pretty sweet. I'll be able to do workshops here once everything gets set up. I've got like a bathroom here that's separate from the house. I've got the heating and cooling so, you know, I can have people here in the winter and in the summer I put in some lights.
You got rubber mats for the floor.
[00:02:23] Speaker A: Oh, that's rad.
[00:02:25] Speaker B: Don't.
[00:02:26] Speaker C: Don't show my model. My model thing, dude. I've got a. I've got a Gundam modeling obsession.
So this is.
[00:02:35] Speaker A: Yeah, that's super cool.
I want to see one.
[00:02:40] Speaker C: Well, oh, well.
[00:02:45] Speaker B: Fun.
[00:02:46] Speaker C: Yeah. I've got.
[00:02:47] Speaker B: I've got a problem here.
[00:02:49] Speaker A: That's cool. I like it.
I mean, I assume that they're way easier probably to get in Japan, probably cheaper anyways.
[00:02:58] Speaker C: They're a little bit cheaper, but to be honest, like, they're so they're easy to get here.
Like last time I was in Japan, I brought some back, but it wasn't really worth it. They took up too much space in my suitcase and I couldn't bring.
So Michael is staying in my house for a couple days while he does, like a.
A bonsai tour around here while I screw up everything.
[00:03:22] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness, what a disaster planning was. Everybody's so nice, though. I'm so happy. Oh, my goodness, the planning. Everything blew up in my face. Seth saved my butt with the Huntsville Club too, though. So one less. One less empty day at least.
[00:03:42] Speaker C: Hi, I'm Michael.
[00:03:43] Speaker A: How's it going, Michael? Great to meet you, man.
[00:03:46] Speaker B: Good to meet you.
Oh, sorry I've been so crazy.
Been like three days. Put on almost 600 miles.
[00:03:56] Speaker A: Wow, that's pretty good. That's quite a bit.
[00:04:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Just in the last couple days now.
So it's like work, drive, work, drive, work.
Yeah, yeah.
[00:04:09] Speaker A: And, Michael, you're from Canada originally, is that right?
[00:04:13] Speaker B: Yes, yes. Okay.
[00:04:16] Speaker A: Very nice.
[00:04:17] Speaker B: My dad is American, though.
Okay. I've been. I've been down here lots, but I've never been here, I guess. Yeah. As over 21 and alone. This is interesting.
It's transformative. I've been here not even a week and I've already had road rage.
I've been stranded in the dark.
Yeah, it's been.
I don't even know. I'm so tired right now.
[00:04:47] Speaker A: How is.
Is driving in Canada much different than the US or is it pretty much the same?
[00:04:53] Speaker B: It's like Mario Kart either way, right?
[00:04:59] Speaker C: Everyone's trying to run each other off the road.
[00:05:03] Speaker B: It's the same, actually. Especially this area is a lot like Alberta.
[00:05:07] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:05:08] Speaker B: Yeah. It's a lot of fun.
So I'm eating carrot. I'm eating carrots and breaking branches. Over here. We got.
Yeah, but you said I could eat.
[00:05:19] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:05:20] Speaker A: You do whatever you want.
[00:05:25] Speaker C: Michael is, like, a little delirious. Like, we went to a barbecue restaurant last night, and I'm pretty sure he just tripped out everybody.
[00:05:34] Speaker A: I send pictures. It looked really good.
[00:05:36] Speaker C: He's so sleep deprived, man.
[00:05:38] Speaker A: Oof. I'm sorry.
[00:05:41] Speaker C: And we're in Alabama, so they're like, so confused that this Canadian guy is from Japan.
It was so, so weird.
That is a little.
They asked them, like, what are you doing here? I can't tell you.
[00:06:01] Speaker B: He's killing me.
[00:06:03] Speaker A: They probably think you're like a. A secret agent or something.
[00:06:07] Speaker B: That's what he said.
[00:06:07] Speaker C: Yeah, I. I just didn't like. How do you explain this?
[00:06:10] Speaker B: I'm way too messed up with this. I'm like, so Strung out, sleep deprived. I get to Seth though. First good sleep I've had. So I'm kind of back to baseline.
[00:06:21] Speaker C: A little bit snuggle. Really well.
[00:06:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Two hour drive this morning.
Did the workshop for nine to four. Two hour drive back here. Of course. I just really quickly on my gps tapped the button and it was. Seth's house was too close to Birmingham. So it took me to downtown central Birmingham and I was on the exit before I realized.
[00:06:47] Speaker C: Yikes. Yikes.
[00:06:48] Speaker B: Yeah, it's been fun.
[00:06:50] Speaker A: How. How was the barbecue and where'd you guys go? It looked really good. I saw pictures on your Instagram story.
[00:06:57] Speaker C: I'll let Michael. So the place is Full Moon Barbecue. It's like five minutes from my house. There's a lot of barbecue here. But for me it's, it's pretty good, but it's not, it's not the best place around here, but it's pretty good.
[00:07:10] Speaker B: It was the best meal I've had here yet.
Yeah, okay. Absolutely.
Ribs and what would you call that? The whole half chicken?
[00:07:22] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it was a quarter chicken, two ribs, two slices of white bread, deviled eggs.
[00:07:30] Speaker B: I'm just making sure I can stink up sets left.
[00:07:36] Speaker A: Is it. Does it feel interesting to start eating American food again for you two and how long has it been since you've been back?
[00:07:47] Speaker C: I'll start by saying, yeah, American food is really like, I really miss American food while I was in Japan, but coming back, dude, everything is poison. Like, everything has so much poison in it and so much sugar. Like everything has sugar in it. Mayonnaise has sugar in it, hot sauce has sugar. And it's crazy.
But I mean, at home I pretty much just eat like meat, eggs, cheese.
[00:08:11] Speaker B: Bread.
[00:08:14] Speaker C: And I don't know, I'm getting a taste for American food again. But it's kind of shocking to me, like, how much my taste did change because food was hard for me in Japan, but now that I'm back, it's kind of like I don't miss it. But it's like shocking to me how different the food tastes.
Like you can, you can taste the preservatives and chemical additives and stuff in.
[00:08:40] Speaker A: The food for sure. I totally think, I totally think.
[00:08:44] Speaker B: So how do you do it and travel here though? Like, I'm already kind of going insane from it. You know, I go to gas stations. They, they, I asked, I asked if they have coffee. The burner's not even on, so.
And then the other option is like cold, like this Starbucks Frappuccino style ones. Where it's just like so unbelievably sweet and then otherwise. Yeah, it seems like to eat good food, like it has to be like a hobby to eat organic or something. Like you have to spend all your money or something. For sure. What is going on?
[00:09:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I do think that's part of it. I, I, I cook at home a whole lot and it's just way easier like that, you know, it's almost like impossible to go out. You can't go to like a 711 here and just get something good.
I thought the 7 11s in Japan were pretty awesome actually. But I don't know if you thought so much better than the ones here.
[00:09:44] Speaker B: But it gets, that gets old and you start feeling pretty junky after a short bit of that. Yeah.
Compared to here at least you have something if you're on the road, I guess.
Yeah, we cooking. I mean Seth has two plates in his house.
[00:10:02] Speaker C: I literally have a big small plate.
[00:10:07] Speaker B: I mean he did cook me dinner tonight too, which is very nice.
[00:10:13] Speaker C: Hell yeah, dude. I, I don't even have like a cup. I've got a coffee mug and I've got this like water bottle and I just use this every single day.
[00:10:21] Speaker B: But I've been, I've been using the same Dunkin Donuts cup since I got here.
[00:10:27] Speaker C: This is, yeah, this is the real life of being a multi professional. Now that apprenticeship was bad, but yeah, it turns out this is, this is okay.
I'm really lucky, dude. I got a great, great house and I'm in a great place. Just, you know, I'm just keeping it like super basic like right now because my family's still in Japan and only got what I need, you know.
[00:10:54] Speaker A: For sure. For sure, yes.
Well, I'm really excited to dive in and talk with you more because that last time we spoke, Seth was.
[00:11:04] Speaker C: It's been a while.
[00:11:05] Speaker A: Yeah, it's been a while, man. You were in, you just hit year four and you were talking to me inside the tea room at ign, so it's been a hot minute.
[00:11:14] Speaker C: I wasn't sick of it now and now I'm a free man.
[00:11:20] Speaker A: I forget, did you guys both graduate your apprentice apprenticeships like very close in time frame?
[00:11:27] Speaker C: Uh, one year apart. Right. Like you're, I think, yeah, you're.
Well, I finished August. My, like my last day of apprenticeship was August 16, 2024.
[00:11:43] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. And mine would have been November 1 and then, yeah, I did six months, a little repayment year out of, you know, just discussing with Fujikawa and now we're here. That was finished. I got my ticket in May. So go after that.
[00:12:04] Speaker C: Yeah, so my. Like, I got my certificate in 2024 in May, but I didn't complete my apprenticeship until August 2024. So then Michael had to wait to May 2025. I guess that would have been. That would have been this May to get your. Your paper.
[00:12:24] Speaker B: Exactly. But it worked out. The timing all worked out pretty good. So what is this I've been woefully unprepared for.
Yeah, it's. I mean, don't get me wrong, everyone's been cool. All the trees you worked on, wonderful. But yeah, it was.
[00:12:43] Speaker C: He's kind of tell. Tell Jeremiah your. Your. The logistics of this trip you're doing. It's crazy.
[00:12:49] Speaker B: Oh yeah. Okay. So this is.
This is going. This time was a little bit south of Nashville, and then I drove into Mississippi and then I drove to Seth. Then I drove north Alabama, Huntsville, and then back to Seth.
I have some. Bless his heart. I have someone from New York wants to fly down here for me to wire and slip hot a white pine. And I'm like, I thought I was being trolled for some time.
I thought it was jokes.
But yeah, he's coming. I'll pick him up tomorrow and actually.
Yeah, we'll get it done and take him back to the airport and then. Yeah, right, right, right after that next day I'll wrote a flight of St. Louis. We'll actually have a.
A new. Well, I don't know how much I'm allowed to say.
I have to keep. Keep that a secret for now, but I'll fly to St. Louis and then I'll go to Virginia and then I'll go to Atlanta and then I'll go back home.
So it's just lost.
[00:13:51] Speaker A: Okay, so Michael, tell me like I. I don't even know what.
What does.
What is your. What are you doing right now besides.
[00:14:01] Speaker C: All this crazy driving around? Yeah.
[00:14:04] Speaker B: Who the heck am I? Yeah, I'm.
[00:14:07] Speaker C: Yeah, we didn't even produce you very much like I've been on the podcast before. Who are you, dude?
[00:14:13] Speaker A: Who are you?
[00:14:14] Speaker B: That's a good question. I'm just a rascal. No.
Yeah, I'm.
I don't know. What do I say about myself, dude, I never have to do start with your name. I usually roll up. Yeah. Michael my tank. Hi, everybody.
I'm a. I'm fairly blue collar guy. I'm not. I'm not one of these fancy bonsai guys. He's got his. Is it master's or his PhD or whatever.
Yeah, I worked right out of high school. Somewhere along the way, I found bonsai. And then, yeah, I got very lucky and actually shout out Julian.
It's because of him that I actually got to go to Copenhagen. Because at some point I started emailing a bunch of gardens, long paragraphs.
And eventually he was on the other end of that. Got back to me, said, hey, if you come, we'll do an interview.
And yeah, I went. I joined up.
It's been six years I've been in Japan now.
Now I'm touring around.
[00:15:23] Speaker A: Where are you based out of?
[00:15:24] Speaker C: I don't know. This is going to make me look real bad.
[00:15:30] Speaker B: Where am I based out of? So I'm working out of Osaka still.
[00:15:34] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:15:34] Speaker B: I'm actually based in Coconut still, which, yeah, Fujikawa and I have a pretty good relationship where, you know, we kind of know where we both stand with each other mostly. I'm there still six days a week, just like the apprenticeship, help take care of things. I like to, you know, I kind of met him in the middle where, you know, making sure all. There's a lot of nice trees there. Right. So making sure those stay alive is obviously his priority. Progressing them forward, cleaning up certain trees for sales or customers, whatever the case is.
And yeah, otherwise, if. If there's nothing pressing to do, I work on a lot of my own material or go sourcing material, and otherwise.
[00:16:18] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:16:20] Speaker B: BSing with people on the Internet. And. Yes.
[00:16:27] Speaker A: Awesome. Okay. So you're based in Japan still. Wow. Okay.
[00:16:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, sorry. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'll let you go.
[00:16:34] Speaker A: No, no.
[00:16:35] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:16:35] Speaker A: I feel like one of the things with podcasting is it's hard not to cut each other off. And so I apologize about that, but I was just gonna ask, do you think that you'll be in Japan for quite a while?
[00:16:49] Speaker B: Yeah, my. So somewhere along the way, actually, during the lockdowns, I met my now wife.
She's Japanese. We got married. I got my visa for Japan.
Been getting set up there for business as well. So, yeah, I'm gonna stay stationed for now in Osaka.
Hopefully we can find. I don't want to. I don't want to reveal too much, but, yeah, hopefully I can find a nice place somewhere close outside of Osaka. We'll see where we end up.
[00:17:19] Speaker A: Yeah, that's so cool.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: Maybe buy one of those Akita, the abandoned houses and just start some from the ground up.
[00:17:28] Speaker C: Start a YouTube channel. Remodeling the house.
[00:17:33] Speaker B: Yeah, we'll see. No, I don't think so. I can't. Stand editing videos.
Yeah, it's going to be interesting. Just really, right now I'd like to start a family, go full bore. I'm going around, I'm just going to be candid about it. I'm trying to make as much money as I can to get my life set up because I don't want to say wasted, but I have worked uncomfortably hard the last six years to get my hands craft a really good technique for making cool trees.
And yeah, now this is it, right?
[00:18:15] Speaker C: Yeah, dude, you gotta get your hands.
[00:18:16] Speaker B: Whatever they're dealing with those hands.
[00:18:22] Speaker A: I respect that. I, yeah, I think that's great. That's what you should do. And being a dad is, is pretty cool, I think. How's it working out for you, Seth?
[00:18:33] Speaker C: Yeah, so last time we talked, you know, there was no even plans of having a baby and my son will be seven months old in 10 days.
You know, my situation I mentioned earlier, like, my wife and kid are so in Japan, but God, I'm going back to Japan on the 17th for three weeks for Christmas and New Year's and stuff. So I'm going to have to just, you know, bounce back and forth between the two countries to, you know, make a bunch of money and go see them whenever I can.
But the goal is to bring him over here and we're in process of all that.
But I got to spend the first three months of his life with him.
And yeah, I, you know, I haven't seen him since, so it's a little, little tough. But Leigh and I knew what we were getting into.
Like all through my apprenticeship, she knew that like I would go back to America and, you know, we would have to go through all this. So we decided it was worth having a kid. And I mean, she loves being a mom and like, to be honest, like having the separation between us, but her having our son, I think it makes it easier for her.
Like, you know, long distance relationships are hard. You know, I went to Japan in a long distance relationship and that was like a huge mistake. So I think pretty much all the apprentices do that and I don't think a single one of us has ever had success.
[00:20:07] Speaker B: So.
[00:20:08] Speaker C: But yeah, having the baby, it's been, it's been really good. And like, she's so happy being a mom and I miss him. But I'm getting to go back soon and I'm really excited for that.
[00:20:21] Speaker A: Hell yeah.
Well, I respect the hell out of both of what you guys are doing. And I think it's not an easy path to support a Family doing bonsai. But I think both of you guys are, are extremely talented and hardworking and because of that, you will be successful. And so it's so cool to, to follow along on your journeys.
And I'm a big fan of both of you guys.
[00:20:47] Speaker C: How, how old are your kids now? Jeremiah? I think like the first time I met you, you must have just had your daughter. It was like the 2017 or 16 US national.
Like you had like a very, very young child. I don't know if it was your daughter or your son. I don't remember.
[00:21:08] Speaker A: Yes, so we met in 2018.
[00:21:11] Speaker C: 2018.
[00:21:11] Speaker A: And the, the reason I remember that is just because she was born that year. So I think she was only like 6 months old or something.
And we did like, we flew her across the country, we brought her with us to New York and it was a cool experience.
[00:21:27] Speaker C: How, how is flying with a baby, though?
[00:21:33] Speaker A: It's absolute.
[00:21:34] Speaker B: Hell.
[00:21:37] Speaker A: No, you know, like, I, I'm one of those parents, I'm like, oh yeah, like, you know, I don't want my kid playing with iPads too much and I don't want to like, appease them with, you know, pacifiers and candy and this and that. But like on a flight, I'm like, whatever, whatever it takes to get through this kind of thing.
And luckily, like, my wife is just phenomenal with them and she does such a good job. So it was, it was mostly her, you know, and dad got the easy role in it, in it all, so.
Yeah, but my kids are great, man. They're, they're so much fun. They're seven and six now and you know, I got them in a bunch of like, sports and gymnastics and jiu jitsu and.
[00:22:24] Speaker B: Sweet.
[00:22:24] Speaker A: They're just like super funny. We laugh all the time. We have a great time. And I'm like, being a, in a family is, is the best thing ever. So I'm a big supporter of, of the whole family thing, for sure.
[00:22:38] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, going through high school and all that always I felt like the public education system kind of fear mongered having a family.
And I always thought like, you know, I would see my friends have kids in their 20s and I would feel like they're like ruining their lives, you know. And then now that I'm starting my own family, it's like, wow, I wish I could have did this sooner. You know, like, it's amazing and I'm just starting it, but like, yeah, I, I wish I could have had more kids earlier.
[00:23:12] Speaker A: Yeah, that, that's awesome. That's awesome. You think you'll have another one in the future?
[00:23:18] Speaker C: Yeah, I hope so.
Get things kind of. Yeah. Kind of where my head's at right now is at least get my wife over here before doing it again because.
Yeah, it's tough. You know, our situation is tough. I'm not gonna beat around the bush about it. Yeah, for sure.
[00:23:37] Speaker B: For sure.
[00:23:39] Speaker A: Ah, that's crazy. Well, so did you guys. Did you guys communicate or hang out at all when you're back in Japan? Was it.
[00:23:48] Speaker C: Most of us, yeah.
[00:23:50] Speaker A: You and Michael.
[00:23:52] Speaker B: Some rabbit holes we can only traverse so far in Japan.
[00:23:55] Speaker C: Yeah.
But, yeah, we hung out.
I think I met.
I met you. Must have been like 20, 21 GAFU 10.
[00:24:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So can I tell a bit?
[00:24:08] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:24:09] Speaker B: Maybe there. Maybe there's more to it from your end, of course. But I didn't really know Seth at all. I knew of him.
[00:24:17] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:24:17] Speaker B: And then he was coming down to hang out with Kaya and we. The plan was Seth wanted to go see. Got the 10 as well.
And then, yeah, I got to tag along. We all got to go out to a bar one night. And then the.
Seth ended up crashing at my apartment in his tiny Japanese apartment. Right. So it was just me, like on the little sofa bed thing that I had and then him on the floor.
[00:24:48] Speaker C: Did I sleep on the floor? I don't even.
[00:24:50] Speaker B: You slept on the floor?
[00:24:51] Speaker C: I offered.
[00:24:52] Speaker B: I offered the couch. And you're like, I'm good on the floor, man. It's worse than. I cheated.
[00:24:57] Speaker C: Well, yeah. When.
Sorry to interrupt, but like. Yeah, yeah, my.
When I was in the main house of Aichen, like, you know, it's just tatami and like a 1 inch thick.
[00:25:08] Speaker B: It's.
[00:25:09] Speaker C: To be honest, that's not even an inch thick futon.
And it's like super, super thin. So anything's better than that.
But you know, like, to be fair, you know, that's just like the Japanese lifestyle. So like, for me, as an American, it's weird, but for them it's normal. So.
[00:25:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I actually found the top right now, and it's pretty good.
[00:25:34] Speaker C: Dang, that's hardcore.
[00:25:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I can't get used to that. Sorry, sorry. Go ahead. Seth and I really just. I don't know, we. We hit it off pretty good there.
We kept my dog.
Yeah. Heck yeah. We always kept in touch, you know. And then, you know, he starts sending me funny stuff. I start sending him funny stuff.
[00:25:56] Speaker C: We've only actually met.
[00:25:58] Speaker B: This is really only the third time we've actually met in person over the last five years.
[00:26:03] Speaker C: Is it really?
[00:26:05] Speaker B: Yeah, man, because you would have been Gafu10 and then you came.
[00:26:08] Speaker C: We worked a couple auctions together though.
[00:26:10] Speaker B: Okay, okay, okay. Besides those, I guess.
[00:26:13] Speaker C: Yeah, like, besides work obligations. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:26:18] Speaker B: We. And then the one time I came up to Seth in Nagoya and all we did was we went to the gym for three hours and then went and ate Y.
[00:26:28] Speaker A: Totally.
[00:26:29] Speaker C: Gym bros. Yeah.
[00:26:31] Speaker B: So that becomes the best.
[00:26:34] Speaker A: Such a hardcore gym bro, man.
[00:26:36] Speaker C: No, seriously, this. This friendship is. Oh, it's not founded. It's founded in bonsai and then solidified in steel.
[00:26:46] Speaker B: Yeah, just progress fix and names and how to get better and what's our squat max and everything. Yeah, yeah. Not. Not good.
[00:26:54] Speaker C: By the way, Jeremiah is a calisthenics God.
[00:26:59] Speaker B: Oh, I bet.
[00:27:01] Speaker A: Definitely not. Do you. Do you lift a lot, Michael too?
[00:27:07] Speaker B: Lately it's been bad, but throughout the apprenticeship, like, I. I put on like 15 kilos of like, just wait, like I was a noodle. I was a skinny, skinny noodle when I started it.
And yeah, I just tried to eat as much rice as I could. For the first two years especially, it was just, yeah, chicken, potatoes and rice. And then constantly, what do I have to do? Especially until I met my. Now my wife, it was just go to cocaine, go to the gym, go home, sleep. And yeah, I had. I had nothing else for a while. Right. So yeah, it go. It went pretty good.
And then of course, yeah, you need. You need it to lift trees all day, right? We get put in some wacky positions, man. Just like, you know, you got a crazy branch coming up right side. You got to pick it up with your. Your co worker who's, you know, got. Got the good side for some reason. It's just is. There's awkward, awkward lifts all the time. So.
[00:28:11] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, a lot of times.
[00:28:12] Speaker B: That kind of became an outlet to save my back.
[00:28:15] Speaker C: Yeah, your arms are always like fully extended to lift. And like in that position you're not. You have like no muscle activation, you know, so it's. You always end up lifting with your back. And then I hurt my back. That's how. That's like the main reason I got into the gym. I always like, I had a bad back from nursery work already, but then I. I was picking up a tree and it like was very top heavy and very. It was too heavy for me alone. But like, I was working at auction, I had to do it and yeah, I just had to like torque the hell out of it and I threw my lower back. I Like partially herniated a disc or something. I don't know. But I've never had it diagnosed. But like, lifting was the only thing that, you know, helped just like a strength in my back, you know?
[00:29:01] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, man. I've had lower back issues too, and like, really bad at some points. I don't know. It's come from jiu jitsu. It's come from like lifting trees. It's come from a variety of different things.
And what I have, I have a good friend who studied to be a physical therapist. He's just like hardcore into exercise.
And he taught me some exercises to strengthen your lower back. In particular, like, he taught me this like, dumbbell seated good morning variation.
And that's really helped. Like, I've really been focusing on building strength in my lower back and it hasn't gone out since.
And so I think like, I used to just work out like a, a bro, you know, just do like, duh, you know, the beach muscles. And, and more recently, I've just been really been trying to focus on the entire body and especially targeting my lower back because I, I, that's something that.
[00:30:01] Speaker C: You want to do.
[00:30:02] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:30:02] Speaker C: Goes out. You want to do weighted back extensions.
You, you need like the back extension chair, you know, the 45 degree chair. You know what I'm talking about?
[00:30:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. The, the seated good mornings is similar to that. It's similar to.
[00:30:18] Speaker C: Yeah, it's like that's what you, right, that's like your, your early progression into a back extension. Like once you get good at like a seated good morning and then you move forward with it.
But I was doing like, you know, you start with body weight, right? And then you can do like single leg back extension, but it's like pure lower back.
And like, the thing is like, normally you try to avoid using your lower back when you're lifting, but then you go and lift something and you have to use your back and you throw it out, right, because it's weak. So, yeah, I mean, direct lower back training really, really helped me.
[00:30:59] Speaker A: That's awesome.
We should get together and work out some lower back sometime.
[00:31:04] Speaker B: That sounds a little weird, but I'm going to.
[00:31:10] Speaker C: Do. Let's work those glutes.
[00:31:13] Speaker B: Let me hold up for you.
[00:31:16] Speaker A: I'm game. I'm game. Next podcast episode Just Live Gym bro Podcast. Just lower back talking Bonsai. There we go.
[00:31:28] Speaker C: Very nice, very nice.
[00:31:33] Speaker A: So I guess I was curious if we could talk a little bit more about just like where you guys are at in your bonsai journey now.
So, Michael that's awesome that you're in Japan, but you are touring around right now making some money, saving up for fam, I guess. Seth.
So did you buy this house in Alabama and are you setting up permanent shop here or is this just kind of like a temporary holding spot?
[00:32:01] Speaker C: So I, I am super blessed.
So in spring, you know, I came back to the US In January.
I worked a little bit in January, like couple jobs. And then February I did a like southeast tour. I did Tennessee.
I did Tennessee. Atlanta, Alabama. And here in Alabama, I. I met someone, you know, he likes to say, pretty private.
So I'm not going to like name him, but I met someone who I would call my patron instead of a customer because he's doing so much for me. So he set me up with a place to live full time, work here, and he's giving me the freedom to like build my independent business at the same time.
So it's like, I mean, more than I ever could have imagined, to be completely honest.
I met him during like my, my second month working as a professional and at the time, you know, my wife was pregnant and I just like ran into this opportunity and yeah, he made me an offer that like I got. It would have been the biggest mistake of my life to say, like, no, I want to work independently still. He just made me an offer I couldn't refuse, you know, and so, yeah, cats out of the bag, right?
I am pretty much looking to be permanently here at least for the foreseeable future. Probably, you know, more than the next 10 years.
The growing climate here looks like it's going to be like awesome. There's my next door neighbor, has two Japanese maples that are like super, super thick in the ground. And down the street there's sakura cherry.
Yeah, yeah. Japanese cherries in the ground all over the city there's like Japanese garden trees, not like miwaki, but just the varieties of species.
The gentleman I'm working for, he started bonsai like 30 years ago and he field grew some like massive kishu here in Alabama. And yeah, it seems like for what I want to do, which is more like build a nursery and grow material myself. Like propagate, grow, make bonsai. Not just like do the hire for wire bonsai traveling tour guy.
So for what I want to do, like, it seems like I'm in a very, very good spot. Like I'm three hours from Nashville, three hours from Atlanta.
I mean, Birmingham is an international airport also, so it's a really good location to be completely honest. And like I, you Know, I'm from Florida and I always have this like, image of Alabama being like a very backwoods kind of place, but it turns out, you know, that's what Florida is.
And, and Alabama is actually a lot nicer than I could have ever imagined. Like, I'm. I'm really excited to be here. And like, I.
Yeah, I mean, the last time I talked to you on the podcast, I never would have dreamed to be sitting where I am right now, like, so shortly after finishing my apprenticeship. It's pretty awesome.
[00:35:38] Speaker A: I'm so pumped for you.
[00:35:39] Speaker C: I.
[00:35:40] Speaker A: So I saw you just put up benches for the first time.
[00:35:43] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:35:43] Speaker A: So garden going.
[00:35:45] Speaker C: Zero trees here.
I've got a handful of trees, but because I'm going to.
I'm going to Japan on December 17, so all my trees are with my coworker in his greenhouse for the time being because I'm coming back in January so he can help me take care of them.
But yeah, trees are. Trees are coming actually in three days, a ton of trees are coming.
So things are.
Things are evolving at a like, really fast pace.
Yeah, it's pretty.
Yeah, it's pretty freaking awesome.
[00:36:25] Speaker A: Sweet.
And how, how do you envision your nursery being set up, like, long term?
[00:36:32] Speaker C: You know, I'm sitting on half an acre and I'm. I'm in the middle of a residential neighborhood. Like, I'm in a cul de sac right at the. The top of the hill, basically.
But the house is situated pretty far forward on the lot. So the backyard is.
It's actually like, even though it's a half acre, it's probably more land than I can handle by myself, you know, so as far as I can see, you know, like, this land is going to serve me for a really long time, and if I need to think about expanding in the future, I will. But like, I've got space to do everything. Like, I've got a lot of space that I can field grow on. I'll probably do like raised beds instead of like directly in the ground because we remove like 13 trees and 20 foot tall bushes and vines and stuff.
So the, the ground soil is just like full of roots, you know, so I don't.
To get through that and actually into the soil was probably like too much work.
So I'll probably just do like massive raised beds.
We'll see. It's kind of where my head's at right now about it.
And I've got. So I've got five rows of benches. They're 2ft wide and 30ft long.
So I've got a ton of bench space already, and if I need to expand, I can. I've got like half an acre to expand on. So I'm.
Yeah, I'm. I'm really. Yeah, things are. Things are, like, incredible.
[00:38:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:07] Speaker A: That's great, man.
[00:38:08] Speaker C: What kind of dream come true?
[00:38:10] Speaker A: What kind of trees do you envision yourself growing?
[00:38:15] Speaker C: Primarily, you know, the. The classic bonsai species, right? You know, charred in maple, Japanese black pine, Japanese maple, kishu itoigawa I might do. I still love sea hibiscus. Uh, but I am really cold here. Like, we've had freezing temperatures for a couple weeks now.
Um, but it doesn't really snow too often, which is kind of weird. I think it's actually colder here in Birmingham than it was in Nagoya. But in Nagoya, we got snow, and we don't get snow here in Birmingham. I was told, like, maybe once every five years.
So, yeah, tropical is probably like the. The juice isn't worth the squeeze, you know. But I. I really love sea hibiscus. I had, like, that was my number one species before I went to Japan. So I don't think I'll ever stop doing it.
[00:39:10] Speaker A: You know what, like, can you talk to me about sizes, styles that you want to go after? Are you going to do, like, every little bit of everything? Are you going to focus on anything in particular?
[00:39:24] Speaker C: I mean, where my head's at is like, probably shohin shoehin focus.
Because, like, you know, to be a professional, right, I have to make money. And shohin shoehin sizes are like, very shippable.
And you can get a really good quality tree in a pretty affordable price range.
Even like as pre bonsai material. You know, like a 300 to $500 shohin, like, you're gonna get a pretty good trunk line and maybe a couple primary branch lines started. And that's a. That's a price range that's very affordable for a large piece of the market, I think.
So that's kind of what I'm thinking. But then, of course, I want to have long term, you know, bigger stuff. And I'd like to get yamadori here eventually.
But, yeah, you know, everything in time because the east coast US, right, especially southeast, there's no, like, yamadori juniper.
There's Virginia pine, which looks pretty promising, like, as good pine material. And I'm not too keen on collected deciduous material because you just end up with, like, really big cuts. And I would rather grow something myself, to be honest.
And, yeah, I want to do lots and lots of black pine, like, lots of black pine.
I chain focus. Right?
[00:40:57] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure, for sure.
I think Michael knows a thing or two about growing little trees from seed cutting and air layer.
I saw your video on Bjorn's platform about the little, little maples that you've been developing and those things are looking pretty solid, man.
[00:41:17] Speaker B: Yeah, let's hope I can give them the attention they need over the next little while because I don't even run away from me. They.
They can really change a lot in a very short time.
Yeah, I would love. I would love to do more. I know if. If we're gonna get a piece of land in Japan, I'm definitely going to be looking for something with a fairly substantial amount being in the city. A, it's like way too hot and B, yeah, you can't get anything right. So I'll probably be out in the middle of nowhere somewhere. Hopefully. Hopefully I could just like hunker down, become a hermit.
I. I kind of hope, you know, when you get old in Bosse, there's like this old wizard effect and maybe people will look up to me by then.
I grow a really long beard.
[00:42:09] Speaker C: I love it.
[00:42:09] Speaker B: Maybe people come to me by then and I can just sit still and wait.
[00:42:15] Speaker C: The, the difference between like the US and Japan.
I feel like land in Japan is super expensive. Like it's half an acre. I don't even know if I Chen is like on a total of a half acre, to be honest.
Like.
Yeah. I don't know. Everything in Japan is so small and so expensive. Like the houses are cheap, but the land is incredibly expensive.
[00:42:45] Speaker A: Interesting.
I wonder.
Yeah, it is crazy expensive in Japan, land wise.
Although.
So Michael, were you joking or were you serious about potentially buying one of those homes that is abandoned and really inexpensive? I see a lot about that online. I don't know much about it actually.
[00:43:08] Speaker B: It's kind of funny. Like I am always looking for land available.
They. They get cut into really weird shaped parcels in Japan. Right. It's very mountainous. So often they're like through forests that skirt along the side of a mountain. It's totally unviable when you're looking for the amount of land that I'm looking for.
So a lot of the time it comes down to here's an akiya that has land, one of the abandoned houses and it might be one of the routes we have to go. I'm just kind of waiting to see, you know, when what's financially viable and what is like actually reasonable location wise too. So just if those things match up. Like I said, right Now I'm at Inosaka. Things are going pretty good, so there's no reason to just like scared away immediately.
But yeah, it'll. It'll just be like an opportunity in time thing. Right.
[00:44:03] Speaker A: So, yeah, very nice.
[00:44:06] Speaker B: Mostly serious.
[00:44:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Cool. That's. That's so cool. What are, what are like the positives and negatives when looking into those types of homes?
[00:44:16] Speaker B: Oh, let's see. I mean. I mean, Coca N's location isn't really the greatest, but we still get like, tourists and just random people who come and want to buy things every once in a while. So we've been running workshops out of there too, for beginners. And that's like fairly good income every once in a while.
But when you're looking for something abandoned out in the middle of nowhere, like, it just becomes hard to access right where, you know, even for me, if I'm trying to do bonsai over there, I would need to drive around a lot. So it would be good, you know, find something that's close to at least the highway. Something you can get onto the main veins as soon as you need to.
Also. Yeah, you're looking at, you know, are you on south side or north side of a mountain?
You know this. There's just all sorts of little weird things. And it's hard because it's not like here where they're happy to just, here's the address of the place. You can go look at it. They kind of obscured it. Most of us. You have to really dig and be like, where the heck is this place? I don't want to call them. I don't want to talk to them yet.
Want to go, have to go meet them to go see the place? I just want an idea right now.
Oh, interesting. A lot of digging around on the Internet, so.
Okay.
[00:45:31] Speaker A: I've heard those houses can be like dirt cheap, though. I mean, I've seen some for like, I don't know, 15 to 35k or something like that.
[00:45:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I'm fairly handy, but some of these things look like they could just be absolute death traps. So it's, you know, may whatever comes of it. Right.
[00:45:51] Speaker C: Can I blow the whole time up.
[00:45:53] Speaker B: Or try to fix it? Go ahead, chime away.
[00:45:56] Speaker C: So, yeah, what I understand is like, the amount of money it takes just to clean the home and like, get rid of the trash is generally more expensive than just tearing it down and rebuilding a home.
Like houses in Japan are like, they don't hold their value, you know, the way they like a home in the Us And I'm assuming Europe also does.
So the other kind of hidden thing they don't talk about is you have to pay the back taxes on the property, too. So if you find this, like, abandoned house with, like, no one's paid taxes on it for 30 years, if you want to buy that house, you have to pay all those taxes, too.
So it may be listed for like 15,000, but then, like, there's all these hidden costs just to, like, clean it and get rid of the. You know, you have to pay for trash removal. You can't just, like, pick it at the curb and someone will come and pick it up. You know, you have to, like, either hire a crew to take it or take it all yourself and then pay the.
The. I don't know, the dump or whatever, the recycle place.
And then, like. Yeah, also in Japan, like, you can't just throw stuff away. Everything is, like, separated and glass and plastic and bottle caps and aluminum cans. Like, it's a. It's a huge endeavor. In all reality, a lot of things.
[00:47:23] Speaker B: Will have to line up. But, like, like I said, where we're at right now is pretty good. We just moved into the place on that about a year and a half ago, and my wife and I agreed we'll probably be sitting there for about, you know, four or five years. So I think, yeah, it's gonna work out solid.
[00:47:41] Speaker A: Very cool. Very cool.
And do you see Bjorn much these days?
[00:47:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, he comes by, you know, once, twice a month, does his thing, film something. Sometimes we work together on something.
Otherwise. Yeah, I was doing a little live streams there for a bit. Those were fun.
But, yeah, his place is built now, so he started taking his trees over there. Now the garden is so empty. We need to. We're gonna fill it up, though. I think so.
[00:48:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:11] Speaker B: He was keeping very fun trees with the garden, so.
[00:48:15] Speaker A: Oh, man.
His Shishigashira maple, it was. That's ridonkulous. It was so, so insane.
[00:48:27] Speaker B: That's a good tree, man.
[00:48:32] Speaker A: Very, very good.
[00:48:33] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:48:33] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:48:34] Speaker A: Have you been to his new place?
[00:48:36] Speaker B: No, not yet. I. We both kind of agreed. I'll just go see it when it's done.
Sweet, sweet.
[00:48:42] Speaker C: Is he done?
[00:48:44] Speaker B: I don't know. I don't know their exact status is. From what I heard from people going there is. Yeah, the garden's still got to get built, but otherwise, I think house workshops all there.
Cool, cool, cool.
[00:48:55] Speaker A: That's so cool.
Awesome. Well, yeah, I guess.
Michael, what, like, you know, next 15 years or so, any. Any Any hints you can give us or. I'm sorry if I'm prying too much.
[00:49:11] Speaker C: To let Jesus take the wheel.
[00:49:14] Speaker B: Literally, let Jesus take the wheel. I am screaming into the void and praying so hard every day that everything works out.
Taking a lot of opportunities, I guess. Like, you know, I'm just trying to make it till tomorrow right now.
But yeah, long, long term.
I don't know exactly what it looks like, but like I said, I would love a place in the countryside. I was raised pretty rural for the most part.
And yeah, it's.
I hope it comes together. One thing I discovered from this is I kind of really like teaching one on one.
So if. If I can. I found it to be very fun to just, like, there's the idea of, you know, I could go wire for somebody, whatever.
But if people like to improve their own collections and want to learn at the same time, I've had.
And the people I'm doing it with have had a very good time where, you know, I kind of work on their material, explain. Really stream of consciousness. Everything's just flowing out. I'm coming up to the issues of the tree, pointing it out, showing them how we can fix it. I'll wire out something, for example, and then let them do a part of the tree and kind of correct. Correct, maybe the wrong word, but help improve their technique or find a way to make it more efficient, easier, more enjoyable for them, say, for wiring, example. Just small little technique improvement. Things that really help the process. Right.
And that. That's been a really fun discovery because.
Yeah. Otherwise, a lot of the workshops at Copenhagen have been really beginner stuff, like tourists coming by. Maybe a few kind of intermediates came every once in a while. But helping people with their own trees has been really cool. And, yeah, everyone's everyone over here. Maybe it's an American thing, you know, they make America seem a lot worse on the Internet than it really is.
This place is not bad, man.
I've always liked it here.
[00:51:24] Speaker C: When we're living in Japan.
[00:51:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:51:27] Speaker C: I mean, even for me, living in Japan the last five years and watching, like, how the US has changed via, you know, getting all of my information from my phone.
Yeah, I was kind of, like, uneasy about coming back, to be completely honest. But I will say, like, two days ago in my hometown, like, is it fda, Firearms, Tobacco, Alcohol? Is that what the agency is? They just, like, did a huge raid and they had like, 92,000 pounds of synthetic kratom.
And, like, the guy had explosives and a rocket launcher and fully automatic rifles. And the kid was 20. He was 26.
And yeah, that's my hometown, so.
[00:52:15] Speaker B: Doing better than me.
Yeah.
[00:52:18] Speaker C: America's wack.
That doesn't happen in Japan.
So, Michael, I wanted to ask you because it sounds like you've been alluding to being in Japan long term for like, foreseeable future.
[00:52:34] Speaker B: Yeah, man.
Wife and I are very comfortable there.
You know, I'll. I'll scout up Vancouver area maybe around March, but I think I'm priced out.
It's. It would be very hard to get the foot in the door over there.
We'll see.
You know, it's gonna be wherever the best opportunity is, right?
[00:53:02] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, that's, that's how I landed.
[00:53:06] Speaker B: You've had no idea. I have no idea what the next little while holds. I have, you know, idea long term vision. I can kind of imagine having my own garden and all this stuff, but right now it's just scrapping, so.
Scrapping Scrapper Joe and just, just trying to have a good time while I do it. Right. It's just, just like the apprenticeship. There's so much, so much that sucks along the way. But yeah, just try to have a good time.
[00:53:38] Speaker C: Just east and have a good time. You're gonna eat bugs and you're gonna like it.
[00:53:45] Speaker A: Is there a favorite type of work that you guys have in like, like really for yourself?
[00:53:54] Speaker C: What.
[00:53:54] Speaker A: What part of the process do you guys enjoy the most?
What types of people do you want to work with?
[00:54:02] Speaker C: I am, like, for me, I really love just working on bonsai.
Like, I really enjoy it. That's why I do it for a living. And I can't imagine like clocking in at an office or doing some. Any, like, honestly, anything else.
So, like, I, I like making trees, right? Like, I, I like to actually work with the trees, like display and exhibits and all that. Like, doesn't really excite me the same way that, like, you know, growing or wiring or pruning, whatever.
Like, I just, I like the doing part of bonsai and when, like working with customers, like, I think for me, like the most ideal scenario is I get hired to do like a specific tree.
But that doesn't really happen much in my, like, experience so far. I've done like a lot of, in the travel work I've done, I've done like little bring your own tree workshops. I've done a couple club demo things.
And like, they're fun, they're okay, but like, it's kind of like a Food Network cooking challenge. But for bonsai, you know, they give You a tree you've never seen before. Like, you have two hours do it and then you're being live streamed and it's. It's kind of weird. I don't like, it's kind of fun because like you, it's a learning experience even for me. You know, like, it's the first time, like getting up in front of a crowd and like doing the thing that I love to do. And like, I'm a lot more comfortable doing it than I would have ever imagined, to be honest. Like, I'm generally a pretty shy person and like, I hate public speaking with a passion.
But you know, getting in front of a crowd to do bonsai is like pretty, pretty comfortable.
[00:55:50] Speaker B: That's, that's an important thing I've discovered too. Oh, sorry, that's all you.
[00:55:56] Speaker C: Sorry, I'm.
[00:55:57] Speaker B: Go ahead. Yeah, it's. It's something I discovered too. I totally agree with Seth because I like am the kind of person who would typically just like start vibrating if I had to do public speaking.
[00:56:07] Speaker C: Yeah. Or anything funky.
[00:56:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But you know what, what I found, especially with bonsai is like, I speak from experience. Right. I'm never going to tell anybody to do something that I read about or I heard somebody doing.
Everything I kind of teach, kind of hand down is through just yet a lot of mistakes I've made over the past few years. Right.
And I think that has helped a lot with. And my ability to.
Yeah. Communicate and get through to people what I think can help them.
[00:56:44] Speaker C: Right.
I want to hit on this real fast. Like what Michael just said, the experience, like as I've been working around, like, you know, I was just in California for a few weeks and I've done like other prior work. You know, everybody always asks, like, is, is it necessary to study in Japan?
But like the, the thing that you get that you can't get anywhere else is like that full immersion day in and day out. And like there's. Michael and I were just talking about this where like every time you're working with a tree, there's like this recall. You know, like I can recall a similar branch pattern or like scenario like some kind of issue with a tree or like design or something like that. There's this recall because we have like years of literally like day in, day out, bonsai experience. And it's kind of. I don't know, I just wanted to hit on that real fast before I forgot.
[00:57:42] Speaker B: It's a, it's a niche reference. But maybe a lot of young guys will know, like Dragon Ball Z. They have the. The hyperbolic time chamber. I used to watch that when I was a kid. And.
[00:57:52] Speaker C: And you go in.
[00:57:53] Speaker B: You go in for two days, but it's been. It's. It's.
It's been two days in real life, but it's been two years in the chamber. Right. Do you go and you do bonsai and you are. You are accelerating your exposure to all these different scenarios with bonsai, and you're. You're able to wrap your mind around so much of it. Right. And then again, like I said, I'm. I'm a working guy. I'm not the smartest person, but I have this muscle memory that I can make things happen with the material that I'm working on. So it's very interesting. Seeing being. Especially being outside of Japan now and seeing, like, all sorts of different stuff is very cool. It's very. Yeah, yeah.
[00:58:38] Speaker C: That. It's something like the apprenticeship experience doesn't really prepare you for the professional experience.
Like, it, like, in a direct way.
[00:58:49] Speaker B: Right.
[00:58:49] Speaker C: But you get the skills in, like, mental tools to do bonsai well, and then, you know, you kind of. Yeah, I'm still kind of figuring out, like, what to do as a professional, you know, like how to work with people, how to do a demo and, you know, part of it's entertainment. But then, you know, you're also trying to, like, execute bonsai at a. Like a high level.
Yeah, it's. It's cool. It's a cool experience.
I don't know where I was going with that. I kind of. I lost my train of thought there.
[00:59:24] Speaker A: I appreciate you being so. Both of you being so authentic, and I think we're all figuring things out. And I also don't know how you become good at anything without a lot of time spent on whatever endeavor you're pursuing. And I just don't know any better way to get good at bonsai than it seems like doing an apprenticeship and just putting in those hours and hours of getting your hands on trees. Like, there can't be a better way to get better at bonsai than getting your hands on trees. High quality trees with feedback. And so I think you guys did.
[01:00:00] Speaker C: It really, the right way. Yeah, bonsai is. It's doing, you know, like, you can read books and, like, that knowledge will take you pretty far on your own. But say, I'm sorry, like, not to call you out, but, Jeremiah, how many black pines do you have in your backyard?
[01:00:19] Speaker A: I have zero.
[01:00:20] Speaker C: You have zero. Okay, well, that.
[01:00:22] Speaker A: Let's say you had five.
[01:00:24] Speaker C: Okay.
[01:00:26] Speaker A: I Take that back. I have one. I'm sorry.
[01:00:28] Speaker C: It's.
[01:00:29] Speaker A: It's growing in the ground though, so it doesn't really count.
[01:00:32] Speaker C: Well, just for hypothetical, let's say you have five.
So in one year you decandle all five of those trees. So you've decandled five. And you get five examples of how like the tree will respond to decandling.
[01:00:45] Speaker B: Right?
[01:00:45] Speaker C: But like, in. In my experience at ign, we have like several hundred black pines. So you have several hundred like unique reactions. Right? And like examples. That's the word I was looking for. You have like several hundred unique examples of how a tree responds to black decandling. And then you have five years times several hundred examples.
So like, that type of exposure, I don't think you can get it anywhere else. If you want to do bonsai, like, you can learn bonsai, you know, but the. That type of exposure, you can't get it from anywhere else except a Japanese bonsai apprenticeship. I mean, I mean, you can study bonsai in America, right?
I think I said it the last time I talked with you, but like, my oyakata told me, like, yeah, anyone can teach you how to wire, but only I can teach you how I work.
And yeah, I think that was a really wise thing he said to me. At least it stuck with me. So I feel like it's wise.
[01:01:53] Speaker A: For sure.
I. I was curious with. Sorry, I'm changing topics. We're kind of jumping all over the place. I hope that's okay.
[01:02:05] Speaker C: Yeah, we're riffing it, dude. Winging it.
[01:02:09] Speaker A: I like that. I like that.
Did Ien and Fujikawa Koka and ever interact with each other?
And one thing I'm really curious about is.
I don't even know how to say this properly, but like, with the different bonsai families or clans, is that still a thing or.
Not so much in Japan. And anything, anything you have there, I would love to hear.
[01:02:37] Speaker C: I'll let you start, Michael.
I was talking.
[01:02:42] Speaker B: You know what?
Fujika really keeps his distance from a lot of people.
Keeps his distance from a lot of people. So I. I'm not too involved with the, the garden family dynamic stuff. Right. But no matter what you do, the thing is, when you're doing this, when you, when you get involved, the. The life is so family. Like, you work so closely. Anybody who works alongside you, anything they do affects you as well. Right?
So if somebody, you know, wanted to do something to mess with your situation, your well being, you know, it's. It's as easy as, you know, like, if I Left cocaine. Right now there's only one apprentice there and I can really mess up his life. You know, that's going to be, you know, I'm on this trip right now and bless his heart, he's. He's not going to take a day off for the two weeks I'm here.
So we have that, you know, you want to take care of the people around you. Right. So as far as I know, there's, there's, you know, bonsai families, certain gardens have certain dynamics, I guess. Like Daijuan is a really big one where lots of people have studied there. So maybe they all do business with each other in a. In a nicer way. I'm not really too sure, to be honest. I think Seth would have kind of decent experience with this too. He's had lots of different Japanese guys that he would have to consider. Like senpai too.
[01:04:17] Speaker C: I'll let you take it from here, man.
So I, Chan is part of that Daijuan bonsai clan, I suppose you could say.
And the connection is my oyakata Junichiro Tanaka studied with when we studied at Daijuan with Toru Suzuki is like the current way kata and his father.
To be honest, I don't remember Daijuan family very well. Like, I, I didn't study at Daijuan. So.
So anyways, like, yeah, there's been like 36 to 40 Japanese professionals who studied at Daijun.
So then under each one of those professionals had they, you know, eventually have their own apprentices.
So it forms this like large network of business relationships. Right. That they. Because like Japan's such a hierarchical society.
So like that's like the whole senpai thing.
[01:05:23] Speaker B: Right.
[01:05:23] Speaker C: So like if I came in in 2019, anyone who studied at like a Daijuan related nursery would be my senpai. But it'd be like they're my cousin because I'm studying at Aichen. And because my Oikata studied at Daijuan, we are like loosely have some kind of relationship. But to be honest, as a foreigner, you're never, you're never part of it. So that whole thing.
Yeah, yeah, I have mixed feelings on that.
Probably I'm more pessimistic about it than a lot of people because like, yeah, I just felt like I was, you know, never actually part of the group. But you know, I don't live in Japan, so why would I be part of the group?
[01:06:12] Speaker B: Right.
[01:06:15] Speaker C: Interesting.
What was the, the original question? Was there something else that you wanted to touch on about that?
[01:06:26] Speaker A: I guess I was Curious if IGN and Fujikawa are connected in any way.
[01:06:36] Speaker C: I mean, not. Not really. Like, there's no bonsai family connection. Right. Like, they're. I don't. I think Coca N is, like, somehow related with Monsign, if I'm. Is that right, Michael?
[01:06:52] Speaker B: Yeah, that's from Fujika.
So, yeah.
[01:06:55] Speaker C: So, I mean, there's no, like.
Yeah, there's no connection there.
But, like, you know, they. The bonsai community is so small that, like, all the professionals work and deal with each other. It's not like you can't work outside of the family, you know, but, like, when I say work and deal with each other. It's like if they're selling a tree at an auction, it doesn't matter who's selling. Like, everyone.
You're gonna buy from anyone who's selling. Right.
At least that's, like, what I've seen. So.
[01:07:28] Speaker B: Yeah, there's cooperation where, you know, the. The rising tide raises all ships. I guess that's pretty common way to say something like this, where, you know, especially, like, auctions, everyone's just trying to give, you know, get money on certain things. Yeah. You trying to make a buck. You have material you don't know what to do with. Some other guys garden. Some other guys apprentice. They have a technique to, you know, take that. Or they just have someone they can sell it to. Right. So there's a lot more maybe cooperation in that way. But ultimately, I think it's just. Everyone's trying to make their ends meet, too. Right. So.
[01:08:07] Speaker C: Yeah, I think so.
I think maybe in the past, there might have been more of this, like, family.
I don't know what the right word is, like, territory. Like, customer. Like territorial. Being territorial about customers or something like that. But I think bonsai has, like, shrunk so much that that. That had to go, you know, or nobody could eat kind of thing. I don't know. That's my. That's my impression as not being someone who's, like, very actively involved in it. You know, that's only looking from the outside. And what I saw.
[01:08:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I. It's super interesting to me. And I don't even know what I'm asking exactly. And I'm even more of an outsider. It's just fun and interesting to get an apprentice.
[01:08:56] Speaker C: Weird.
[01:08:56] Speaker B: And it's hard to relate and express, even if you haven't just been in it. Like, it's something you have to observe. And I mean, as foreigners, it's something you really observe kind of from, like, an outside position, too. Right. So you kind of just get to sit.
[01:09:10] Speaker A: For sure.
[01:09:11] Speaker B: These things happen around you, it feels like, right?
[01:09:15] Speaker C: Yeah, they definitely happen around you. Like, the world moves around you and you're just kind of in the middle of it happening.
At least that's how I felt. I felt like the whole world was moving around me and I was just sitting still.
Yeah.
[01:09:33] Speaker A: What, what are any other general trends about bonsai in Japan come to mind right now? I think last time.
[01:09:43] Speaker C: Go ahead. Yeah, that's the trend. Sell it all.
Everything.
Yeah, yeah, Everything must go to China and Vietnam.
I mean, like, that's the honest truth is like, they're, they're just selling everything. Like, I don't think even like Kicho bonsai, that is supposed to be like, quote unquote, cultural masterpiece or whatever.
Yeah, those get sold all the time.
Like, really, everything must go.
[01:10:12] Speaker A: I thought those could not leave Japan. I thought that was the deal. But I guess who, who would regulate that?
[01:10:20] Speaker C: Yeah, who's going to stop you?
Yeah, I mean, that's what I say. Like, you know, everyone's just out to make a buck now.
Like, my, my impression of Japanese bonsai is like, yeah, everyone's just trying to make a buck and you got to get the money while it's good or you're missing out.
[01:10:37] Speaker B: Kind of like the whole world.
[01:10:38] Speaker C: Very pessimistic. Yeah. Yeah, I guess it is like a global trend.
[01:10:42] Speaker B: We're just all trying to grind each other into a pulp.
[01:10:44] Speaker C: Like, don't grind on me, bro.
[01:10:54] Speaker B: Hmm.
[01:10:55] Speaker A: Depressing. Although.
[01:10:56] Speaker C: Yeah, a little bit. Sorry.
[01:10:58] Speaker A: Cool. All right, well, why don't we move on?
Yeah. Yes.
Let's see.
Why don't we talk about a few more technical type topics? Is that cool or do you want to. Is there anything you want to talk about in particular?
[01:11:23] Speaker C: Shoot.
[01:11:23] Speaker B: I don't know.
[01:11:28] Speaker C: You know, to be honest with you, like, I, I have a pretty.
So I think bonsai in the US has been, like, made overly academic.
And when it comes to, like, technical bonsai work, it's.
To be honest, it's kind of common sense. And I was just at Tom Vong's and I was talking to Tom Vuong about, like, collecting and grafting and bending. And like, he literally said to me, like, yeah, it's common sense. And for like, example, with bending, like, if you take your arm and you hold it out straight and you, you know, you can always bend it in, but you. There's a point where you can't bend it back, and if you extend past that point, it breaks. And like a tree branch is exactly the Same.
And then.
Then he made the point, like. But if you add in some rotation, you can then bend it where it, like, originally wouldn't.
And I don't really know where I'm going with this, but I. I just feel like.
Like, I. I feel like at some level, when you really understand something, you should be able to explain it to a child, you know, in just a few sentences.
[01:12:42] Speaker A: I like that one.
[01:12:44] Speaker C: Yeah. So talking about bending like, it's. God, I don't know.
I need to be led in this conversation.
Kind of dummy, to be honest.
[01:12:57] Speaker B: Yeah. When it comes to that. When it comes. Say, for example, you're wiring something. You have to come up with a technical method. Like, for example, today I was the very first time I really wired or used somebody else's wire on their own tree. And it's totally different from what, you know, I'm used to my own.
[01:13:16] Speaker C: Yeah, that's really weird to do my.
[01:13:18] Speaker B: Own tension and everything.
I have come up with a technical method of preparing, cleaning, styling trees that, you know, is pretty reliable when I run out of, like, creativity. Right.
And you kind of need that, otherwise you're really gonna get burnt out. Because, you know, there's a lot of times when you're just doing bonsai all day, you cannot rely on just your imagination to make it happen.
[01:13:48] Speaker C: But.
[01:13:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:13:49] Speaker B: Anyway, so I was bidding the branch, and I'll admit it was his wire. It was totally different from we used to. And we broke the branch, and that was a lesson for everybody in the room.
And then. Yeah, I redid it on the next one and kind of showed them how. How I would typically do it. And this works for me. Right. So I can't expect everyone to wire at the same kind of consistency that I have right away.
But it is something you have to, you know, develop over time so that you can, you know, wiring is not just to bend the branch, it's to protect the branch. And we have to keep that in mind.
[01:14:25] Speaker C: Yeah. To protect the branch as it bends.
[01:14:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Otherwise, you know, like, one. One thing Seth always says is, like, if, If, If. If the work is meaningless, if something bad happens to the tree, right. If the wiring you've done all the bends, you put in now you kill the branch. Say you put the stress on the branch instead of the wire.
Now you. Now it's gone. It's pointless. Right. All the work you do is pointless. However many hours, whatever the case, it doesn't mean anything. Right.
[01:14:56] Speaker C: So, yeah, it's, I think, touching on this idea.
I think what's really important is that people build like a foundation and like, master that foundation. Right. Like, like Michael just said, like, he kind of has this like, like, God, I don't remember the words he used, but like a step by step, whenever he's not feeling creative, like just blueprint.
Like, if you have that, like, foundation, you can build on that and then you have like, the knowledge and freedom to explore.
And like, that's when you can really get creative and like, execute creatively at a high level because you have this, like, strong foundational skill set.
And I, I think, like, that's something that's really overlooked now. And Jeremiah, have you met or heard of Avram, the Niwaki guy out in California? He's down like socal. He's good friends with Fred Miyahara.
[01:16:03] Speaker A: You know, I don't know if I have actually.
[01:16:07] Speaker C: He's a really cool guy that you should, if you ever get the chance, meet. Avram is a super cool guy and he did a seven year apprenticeship. Like Milwaukee garden tree.
[01:16:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:16:20] Speaker B: Wow.
[01:16:20] Speaker C: Yeah, so he's, he's a super interesting guy. Super interesting guy. But he was talking about this, this.
[01:16:27] Speaker A: Japanese Instagram profile before I forget.
[01:16:30] Speaker C: Dalton. Dalton landscape.
[01:16:32] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah.
[01:16:33] Speaker B: Okay.
[01:16:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I follow Dalton landscape and I've seen a lot of the rock walls they build.
[01:16:39] Speaker C: Okay. Yeah, he's. He's super cool. Super interesting guy.
So Avraham is explaining to me this concept from Japan.
Like, it's a word called shuhari, and I'd never heard that word while I was in Japan, and I forget exactly what it means. Like, each kanji has its own meaning, right? And there's three kanji, like Shu Ha Ri. But basically it's like the, the idea, the way Auburn explained it very simply to me is like, you know, you. You go from 0 to 100, and then once you hit level 100, you restart at 0 and you start like sharpening the knife all over again.
So, like, the concept, I guess, is like, build your foundation, and then from your foundation you have this like, skill set to explore and like break the rules. Right. But because you've like sharpened your knife, you can actually, like, do this at a high level.
And yeah, it's one of those Japanese concepts that doesn't really translate directly into English, but is like, deep in the cultural. It has like a very deep cultural meaning. And Avram, he's like, very fluent in Japanese and he had a very traditional Miwaki apprenticeship experience, which makes like a bonsai apprenticeship look like, like a cakewalk, to be honest.
[01:18:01] Speaker B: I Will add on to that where just kind of.
I've always thought there's. There's been the question a lot, actually. Like, Japanese newspaper came and interviewed us at the garden and asked, like, why do Westerners see, like, bonsai as art?
And my. My kind of process has been it's. It's not art, but it is an art or there is an art to it. Right. And expanding on what Seth said.
Yeah, you have to learn a fundamental basis. It doesn't matter. There's no right way. There's many different ways to it. Right. To do it artfully, but it's just like anyone else's art. Like, if you just go at it and you call it, like, oh, I'm expressing myself, and you just throw paint at the canvas, like, there's not so much meaning to it. Right.
Or who knows? Like, even say Picasso was also an amazing painter before he got into abstract. I don't know, the whole Picasso story. This is just my bad example. But especially with bonsai, like, there's many ways you can build trees and, yeah, execute that to make it beautiful, but if you just slap it together very carelessly, who knows if that's good for the tree.
If it's good for your heart, though, like, go for it, I guess. Right.
Like, just do it. But it depends what your goals are ultimately, Right?
[01:19:31] Speaker C: Yeah. I think, like, bonsai, it is like a very technical thing. Right? Like, it. Because it. The. It relies on horticulture. Right. And horticulture is just horticulture. Like, it's part. That's plant science. Right. So, like, to actually get artistic and creative in bonsai, you have to at least master the horticultural aspect of it first, which takes like a. It's a technical skill.
[01:19:56] Speaker B: Right.
[01:19:58] Speaker C: And then, you know, the honest truth is, like, you asked earlier about, like, what you love about bonsai. Like, yeah, the horticulture is what I. I love about bonsai too.
Like, prior to going to Japan, I was working in a retail garden center where we. We grew all of our annuals and perennials. And I just like growing. Like, I like plants. I'm a plant guy, but I like the doing. I. I really like the doing.
[01:20:25] Speaker A: So many interesting points there that you hit. And I like that you say you like horticulture, because I feel like a lot of people, that's not what they say they like when it comes to bonsai. You know, it's. Yeah, it's several different things, but not necessarily, necessarily the horticulture, which is such an important part of bonsai in general.
And Then I really like that you guys were just talking about creating a foundation of general bonsai knowledge before you move on to all these crazy advanced techniques and styling.
And I almost feel like in the U.S. maybe that's kind of just a big, broad area where we could improve.
[01:21:07] Speaker B: I feel like.
[01:21:07] Speaker C: Yeah, I think.
Go ahead.
[01:21:10] Speaker A: I just hear a lot of people talking about, oh, we're gonna do this and that and this and that with the trees. But really, like, we just gotta get the basics down really well first, and then let's move on to all that.
[01:21:23] Speaker C: That's. So Avram was explaining, like, Shuhari basically, in that way. Right. Is you. You master the basics and then you get creative, but you go back and you continue working on the basics. Like, you continue building that foundation.
And.
Yeah, I mean, I can't explain it as well as he did. Like, I just learned this concept, but I really like it. You know, stuck with me. But, like, I'm gonna say a little something controversial, but I think, like, the truth is, like, if let's say you're doing a bonsai exhibition and you bring a tree that is like, just traditional styling, very typical looking bonsai, right? It's gonna look pretty good in the show. Like, even if it's not a very high level tree, it's going to look pretty good. But if you do something that's out of the ordinary, but you don't execute it at like, 110%, it just sticks out as a sore thumb, as, like, something that doesn't really belong in the setting.
And I think a lot of people end up just doing something more like that because they don't have that strong foundation.
But then, you know, like, Laurent Derues. I don't know if I'm saying his name right, but he's like the perfect example.
Yeah, he's doing.
What he's doing is very outside of the ordinary, but he's executing it at a very high level.
So you, like, he has such a strong. The trees are built on such a strong foundation that they're. The style is not like, you can't deny it, you know, And I think there's a lot of missed opportunities in American bonsai where a lot of people just kind of jump over the foundation to do something a little weird and it doesn't really land most of the time.
And.
[01:23:14] Speaker B: Yeah, that's.
[01:23:15] Speaker C: That's kind of how I feel about it.
[01:23:19] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I totally agree with you.
And I want to look more into that. That term. I love that the Japanese have these terms that describe such Deep concepts. Like, personally I, I live by the concept of kaizen. Like I'm always trying to slowly, incrementally improve whatever I'm devoting my time to. So I really want to look into shuhari more. I'm saying that completely incorrectly, but I would like to research it and understand it more. But thank you for bringing that up.
[01:23:54] Speaker C: I really appreciate it. Yeah, you know, I don't. Michael was fluent in Japanese and I'm, I'm not like, I don't pretend to be or anything, but there's, there really is like some of these, I'm not going to call them proverbs, I don't know what they are, but like these three or four kanji words from Japan that they don't translate into English. So like you kind of have to know them in Japanese. Right.
And they're just. Some of them have like a very complicated meaning that doesn't like in, you can't use a different word in English for it.
And like shuhadi is one of those things. It's one word that like encompasses like a bigger, deeper concept.
[01:24:36] Speaker B: Rad.
[01:24:37] Speaker C: Rad.
[01:24:38] Speaker A: I like it.
[01:24:40] Speaker B: In English we say get good.
[01:24:43] Speaker C: Sucks a suck, bro.
No.
Got it.
[01:24:50] Speaker A: Speaking of technique. So with repotting season coming up around the corner, one thing that I wanted to pick your, both of your brain on is how did the nursery manage trees that were long overdue for repotting. So, so very root bound soil completely broken down.
No air, no oxygen, no water penetrating that root ball. What do you do with that at IGN and Daijuan.
Sorry. Fujikawa Koken. Sorry, sorry.
Don't leave the podcast, please.
[01:25:28] Speaker B: Bye.
[01:25:31] Speaker C: I've been talking for a while. Why don't you go Michael?
[01:25:36] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean we're no stranger to it. We get all sorts of trees. Yes.
Oh man. We like, sometimes we get trees that can just help keep us busy in the down season. Right? So we'll just get these super big overgrown white pines.
You look at them and you're like, what the heck's gonna happen with this tree?
And sometimes they've been in the same pot for, you know, a decade or more.
Roots just pushing up out of the pot and it can get pretty crazy.
It's, it's difficult.
[01:26:07] Speaker C: Right?
[01:26:09] Speaker B: You know, you just have to, again, you have to do the work.
In the case of like those, those are white pines, so you don't want to brutalize the roots entirely. If they're like grafted ones on black pine stock, they can handle a lot more work.
But for the most part you know, we're just kind of gonna go and excavate as much of the hard stuff as we can and kind of expose, you know, whatever routes are viable.
And that's hard to judge. That's, that's really. That's not something I'm ever going to explain over voice on the phone call.
[01:26:43] Speaker C: Right.
[01:26:43] Speaker B: You gotta, you gotta be there to watch that for sure.
Yeah. But, you know, you're. You're exposing kind of what's viable.
If all the ones that rip around the pot, you're gonna just have to make judgment calls. Right.
And sometimes just cut and pray, usually it's pretty good because, you know, they're bonsai, right.
And if they've been adapted for that environment, usually you cut one big root, there's probably a few others that can still sustain it. Right.
But yeah, you just try and find, of course, the fine roots that are in there, get rid of all the stuff that's turned to concrete. And yeah, it's, it can be very, very tricky. But, you know, reduce, if you can. If there's space, try to reduce the root ball so you can get it in. Just refresh, maybe. Generally we end up in like the same pot for those kinds of trees, something like that. It would be probably not smart to try and reduce the plot size at that point. Right. If you can.
You know, we're. We're at a balance of repot it so we can wire it later and sell it. But, you know, something good would probably be prepare a box for it. Right.
Other options. Yeah, if you want to go that route. Stick it in the ground. If it was declining.
[01:28:07] Speaker A: Do you think that a box has a benefit over a ceramic container?
Like just a wooden, Wooden box?
[01:28:16] Speaker B: Yeah, go ahead.
[01:28:18] Speaker C: So my professional opinion, yeah, Wood is porous and the roots will, like, explore even the pores of the wood. So you get like this kind of expanded area to a sense. Like I, you know, terracotta is really good and it's like very breathable and stuff compared to like a plastic pot.
But I feel like wood just gives you even more space to, like, let the roots explore.
I'm. I think it's like a really good thing.
And like, also the wood kind of acts like a sponge. Right. It holds water and the, the roots love it.
[01:28:56] Speaker B: Yeah. With, with the box too. You can, like, if you put the bottom as just a few slats, you can have the rest be a mesh and it's just total open drainage for everything to run right through.
[01:29:07] Speaker C: Right.
[01:29:07] Speaker B: You have superior airflow for sure.
[01:29:11] Speaker C: For sure.
[01:29:13] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, that's, that's great. I, I always kind of debated that in my mind. Like I thought, hey, maybe a box would, the wood material would be beneficial. But I just, it's hard to tell how much benefit you actually get from a box compared to ceramic pot, you know?
[01:29:32] Speaker C: Yeah, I think like a box, a wooden box compared to a plastic pot, there's a much more visible difference. But like a wooden box compared to terracotta.
[01:29:43] Speaker A: Pretty close.
[01:29:44] Speaker C: Pretty close. Yeah, close, close. But I would still say like the, the box, like Michael said, you're going to get better drainage if you do like a big mesh or you know, custom, custom size. Right. If you don't have like a pot on hand, but then like a glaze bonsai pot, you're, you're gonna have a little less breathability than terracotta.
[01:30:03] Speaker B: Right.
[01:30:04] Speaker C: But anyway, I digress.
[01:30:06] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I, I've seen, I saw a bonsai professional once take an ice pick for a tree which was very root bound and the soil was just so compact and essentially they would like jam the ice pick into the soil to try and loosen that up a bit. Sometimes they would kind of like shake the ice pick back and forth a bit.
[01:30:35] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:30:35] Speaker A: Is that pretty common practice, would you say, just to try and loosen that, that up?
[01:30:41] Speaker C: Because I, I mean like as a temporary kind of, you know, maybe you're out of repot season and you, you need to improve some water flow. Like. Yeah, it's, it's a good thing to do for sure.
Like, to be honest, there's probably scenarios where it, it can save a tree. But. Yeah, you know, that's pretty, that's an extreme case. Right.
[01:31:03] Speaker B: 1. I just did it to a tree before I left.
[01:31:07] Speaker C: One thing I wanted to add like at I Chen, there is a lot of trees that we didn't like the entire time I was there, we didn't repot.
I think in the US there's like maybe an over emphasis on repotting. To be honest, I think a lot of people could repot a lot less frequently and their trees would probably grow better.
Yeah, it's a fine line. Right. That's the horticulture part of bonsai is like being able to read the tree and determine like, do I need a repot? Am I going to actually increase the health of the tree? Is my tree in decline? Do I need to repot because of that? Like, I think a lot of people, they just get it in their head, like, you know, conifers every three to five years, deciduous every one or two year, and they just stick to it and do that instead of, like, reading the tree and just doing what the tree needs. But, you know, that's. That's that foundational skill that you have to. You have to build on and just like, get a feeling for.
Yeah.
[01:32:06] Speaker A: I will say I feel like as I've. And I am very much still learning with bonsai, you know, all the time, but as I've learned more and more, I really try and utilize whatever the tree is telling me. So I'm always just looking for, you know, what does this tree right now need right now? Does it need to be under 30% shade cloth because it's a hot day?
Do I need to water this tree for a third time in the day because the topsoil is drying out so quickly? Do I need to put this tree in a bigger pot? Do I need to repot the tree?
Do I need to, you know, do this or that? And I feel like it's hard to give specifics like, hey, repot your trees every three years.
[01:32:52] Speaker C: Yeah, More so. Yeah, yeah.
[01:32:55] Speaker A: Go by what the tree is telling you.
We can give general guidelines, but what really, it's all about, what does this tree need right now?
[01:33:04] Speaker C: Yeah. And being a bonsai professional, you know, I'm kind of realizing most people want, like, black and white do this at this time kind of answers. And like, the. The reality is it's just not that way. And it's kind of weird being in this position as like, quote, unquote, expert. Right.
And people. People have this expectation of, like, you're gonna give them a solution to their problem, but it's gonna be this simple solution. And like, bonsai is just not one of these things that, like, there is a simple solution to every specific problem. Like, there's, you know, there's a lot of guesswork in bonsai. Like, you can, like you say, like, you look at the tree and you kind of have to figure out what it's telling you and you then have to react. Right. Like, so there is just a lot of guesswork. And, you know, the more bonsai you do and the more, like, involved with your bonsai you are, you should be able to make a good guess.
[01:34:01] Speaker B: Right.
[01:34:02] Speaker C: But ultimately, like, you are kind of guessing, right?
[01:34:06] Speaker A: For sure.
[01:34:09] Speaker B: For sure.
[01:34:11] Speaker C: Educated.
[01:34:16] Speaker A: All right, well, I'm thinking one more.
I was hoping to pick your brain about one more topic and then I probably. I. I should get going because I gotta drive to LA still.
[01:34:26] Speaker C: Oh, actually, two things. Traffic for hours.
[01:34:30] Speaker A: Wanted to ask you, Seth, did you work With Tommy Lee?
[01:34:34] Speaker C: Not at his house, but I did a workshop at Bob's in the spring and Tommy was there.
[01:34:42] Speaker A: That's so cool. How was, was that.
[01:34:44] Speaker C: Did I disconnect?
[01:34:45] Speaker A: Nope, you're still on. I can still hear you.
[01:34:48] Speaker B: Okay.
[01:34:48] Speaker C: Yeah. Tommy's a super cool guy. You know, we actually talked a lot about fatherhood because at the time, you know, my wife was pregnant. And it was so funny hearing Tommy Lee like being excited about being a dad. It was like surreal to be honest. He's a great guy. Like, you know, I've never really met. So we lost Michael.
[01:35:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:35:09] Speaker C: I never met like a celebrity. Right. And Tommy has this like reputation.
Like he's a. Has a pop culture icon. Right. So yeah, to the, the real person, he's a great guy.
[01:35:22] Speaker A: That's so cool. So cool.
[01:35:24] Speaker C: And he's so. And I will say too, like, he's really into bonsai. Like he works on his own trees and so in the workshop I did like he wired his California juniper. Like I helped him a little bit with like some tough connections and heavy wire, that kind stuff. But he wired the whole thing in a day and it was like a big tree, you know, it was pretty. Yeah, it's pretty cool working with him. Like he's.
He's not just like, you know, rich collector kind of guy. He wants to learn bonsai. Really, really cool guy.
[01:35:56] Speaker A: I respect that. That's so cool, man.
[01:35:58] Speaker C: For sure. Just for sure.
[01:35:59] Speaker A: Just wanted to see how that was.
[01:36:01] Speaker C: Yeah, he's super cool.
[01:36:04] Speaker A: Last topic.
I just wanted to pick your guys brains about leaf size and deciduous and does, does leaf size matter? When might it matter?
Is it important at all?
[01:36:25] Speaker C: I'm sorry, I'm being an idiot.
[01:36:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I'll take it.
We're both overtired and, and let's, let's see. So, yeah, of course leaf size is going to matter. It's going to help you build, you know, smaller, tighter ramification. Oh, stop it, Seth.
I'm gonna burst out, dude.
[01:36:48] Speaker C: Nine. Nine out of ten people will tell you leaf size doesn't matter.
[01:36:53] Speaker B: I don't know.
[01:36:54] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I know you use it, man.
[01:36:58] Speaker A: You know, when you're, when you're a little kid. Yeah. And you spend the night at your homie's house and you guys just start laughing at a certain point because you're just snowflake.
[01:37:08] Speaker B: 44 hours though, dude.
[01:37:11] Speaker C: Okay, okay, okay, I'll stop. I'll stop.
[01:37:13] Speaker B: Yeah, okay. So yeah, it's going to depend what your goals are though. I've seen some really cool Trees with really big leaf, but maybe, maybe they're bigger. Sometimes you get weird, funky shohin that have a lot of character and because they have, even though they have big leaves. Right. Like the purpose is different. Right.
But if you want to develop like really ultra ramified branch structure, of course a smaller leaf is kind of going to be the way every time. If you can, you can get your hands on something like that, right?
[01:37:48] Speaker C: Yeah. So like I have experience with sea hibiscus prior to going to Japan and sea hibiscus has like a monster sized leaf, you know, bigger than my head.
Uh, but just through regular bonsai technique, right. Like cutting, pinching, defoliating, leaf cutting, you can reduce down like the leaves to like centimeters.
[01:38:09] Speaker B: Right.
[01:38:10] Speaker C: But it's not only leaf size, it's also like the, the twigging quality.
Like in sea hibiscus there's like, you know, there's, there's genetic variables.
[01:38:21] Speaker B: Right.
[01:38:22] Speaker C: So like there's a type that I have that like no matter how much cutting I do, like pruning the leaf, the twig will always come, you know, be like 2 or 3 centimeters thick.
And then there's like this variety from Taiwan that Eric Weigert has like recently been able to import in the last like say, I don't know exactly when, let's say like last five years he's been getting them and like that's the finest twigging variety they use in Taiwan. And those twigs are like, they're just super fine. So you're going to get more ramification and the leaf size will maintain and be more uniform just because of that too. And you see the same thing in trident maples, right? Like so like leaf size and twig quality are like, they're def. They definitely correlate in trident maple. Sometimes you can see like a small leaf trident maple that's still like a pretty coarse single branching, like have pretty coarse branching.
And you can also see like, you know, monster trident maple leaves that'll have like huge inner nodes that are practically unusable, but they'll make like super thick trunks quickly. And like for me, like I, I'm not too interested in those types of trident maples. Right.
But yeah, like every, every species you see that.
You were on the podcast talking with Julian Caesar and Adam.
[01:39:52] Speaker A: Yep.
[01:39:53] Speaker C: The olive guy. And you were talking about Chinese quince and you said something about the quince grown from seed. And maybe I messaged you recently when I listened to this. But yeah, like quints grown from seed, they always come with like a smaller leaf. Size. But those like really big quints that like have fruit on them, I don't know if those are grafted.
Michael, do you know, like, are those old grafted trees that they like were in fruit production or something?
[01:40:24] Speaker B: I couldn't tell you for a hundred percent certain.
[01:40:28] Speaker C: Okay. But yeah, like if you take Chinese quince and you propagate from seed, all of those seedlings will come with small leaves. And like, you know, that's how they make like the shohin. Right. But then you see like a lot of these really old big Chinese quince do have like large leaves and they do have like a coarser branch structure too. Right. And a larger fruit. And yeah, every, you see, you learn to see this on all species of deciduous trees for sure.
And I think it's really important to, if you want to create bonsai at a very high level, you have to work with like the best material. Right. Like the best genetic material.
[01:41:16] Speaker A: Yeah. So regarding Chinese quints, I, I really like that you brought up twigging, twigging quality.
[01:41:23] Speaker B: Right.
[01:41:24] Speaker A: And how the size of the leaf and the quality of the twig, so how fine the twigs are, they're correlated, but they don't always, they're, they're not always exactly the same. So for example, like, I have definitely seen Chinese quints that have like equal size leaves, but one of the Chinese quince has way finer twigs and just gets way more ramified even though the leaf size is dip is the same.
So I think that's a really important point to bring up. Like it's not just the size of the leaf, even though generally speaking like a smaller leaf is going to have more ramification. It's also about the twigs and the fineness of the twigs.
I guess for me it just seems like bonsai that have really fine twigs and grow strongly, they just like want to become bonsai.
[01:42:15] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:42:16] Speaker A: And it's probably easier to create like a really nice final product. Whereas 100%, a bonsai with large leaves and large twigs will just fight you the entire way. And you're, you're never gonna, it's never gonna be as easy and you're, you may never get to the same point that you got to if you had the, the small leaves and the small twigs.
[01:42:39] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, bonsai. Right. Like the whole point of is that to keep the tree small. Right. So if you work with like a fine leaf and fine, like a fine textured branch.
[01:42:49] Speaker B: Right.
[01:42:49] Speaker C: You're just gonna reach your goals and maintain your goals a lot easier.
But you know, everyone does Bonsai kind of at their own, you know, with their own goals. So you know, leaf quality for some people, maybe they don't even care all that much. Right. But you know, if you're trying to execute bonsai at this like high artistic level, you know, it's, it's super important because like imagine, imagine like growing a chart maple in the ground for 30 years and it just has these monster leaves and like super thick twigs that'll never get dense.
And you could have spent that time working with like something good, like some like a good leaf trident maple. You could have like a much higher quality tree in the same amount of time and like the same amount or less work. So then you could have also made other trees at that same during that time. Right.
One expression I've been hearing lately with the gentleman I'm working with is, you know, Ford Pinto will always be a Ford Pinto. Like it doesn't really matter what you do to it, it's still a Ford Pinto. So you can work with a Pinto for 30 years, but at the end of the day it's still a Pinto, you know, for sure. Putting lipstick on a pig, that's another way.
Say it in Alabama maybe.
[01:44:12] Speaker A: Totally, totally.
[01:44:13] Speaker B: And then a good leaf will practically grow itself.
So yeah, just people got to work with what they can though, right? But don't there comes a point where you can't fight it so much. So it's like you have to make the choice of like you go up a size class or for example, like I've seen plenty of really nice kind of bungeon style maples even just as, you know, simple displays where it's really was a really big leaf but it makes a compelling tree with character that is nice and tall and long. Right. So go for it. Figure out what you can. But yeah, like don't, don't, don't fight an uphill battle. Right?
[01:44:55] Speaker C: Yeah. I don't want to be totally dismissive of it because I chan. There's like a lot of you know, 100 plus year old trident maples that are not like super great leaf quality but they're you know, 100 plus years old and they're still relatively dense, you know, like very high quality balls eye but they're not like the finest quality and they're not gonna like win awards at that highest level.
But you know, that's.
[01:45:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I told someone in, in the workshop today, he had this juniper. He didn't know what kind it was. It was very loose and long, all got that kind of juvenile foliage And I told him when we, when we laid everything out, I just gave him the explanation. Like when you go to prune list, do your pinching your kind of tip cutting next summer, if it doesn't start to clump up and get nice and compact like you can just. My, my only suggestion for this would be you can either keep it at the size and you're kind of fighting it forever, or just throw it up nice and long. Make. And I try to imagine a totally different tree out of this because it's going to be impossible to maintain this at like, you know, one foot size tree.
[01:46:03] Speaker C: Makes sense. I know, I know you're trying to wrap up Jeremiah, but I just want to, you know, finish up this idea with the other thing is right, if you're fighting a tree and you feel like you're fighting it, sometimes the best thing to do is like to move it on to someone who wants to take on that fight, you know, so like sell the tree to someone who appreciates the tree so the tree can actually move forward rather than you continue to own the tree and you neglect it and it just declines.
I forget my, my second thing I wanted to say.
So yeah.
[01:46:43] Speaker A: That's great. Both really important points and I guess what other concept that I think is cool that we can experiment more, a whole lot more, more with here in the US is just like taking a trunk, a nice thick trunk and grafting a finer variety onto.
That's definitely something to experiment with that they, they do a decent amount in Japan it seems.
[01:47:09] Speaker C: I will say while I was in SoCal just recently, I saw a lot of these prostratas that were grafted with Kishu. And the Kishu like growth character actually changes. Right. And it gets really tight and more dense than regular Kishu. And yeah, you know, there's a lot of like that old, old grafted material in California. But it seems like outside of California people really haven't explored that, that path too much for sure. Not, not that I'm aware of.
[01:47:36] Speaker B: And propagate the good ones. Make sure you, if you find something good, propagate the heck out of it.
[01:47:43] Speaker A: Totally.
Yeah, I do. I do wonder like with, with American native deciduous, like say American Beach American Hornbeam, if we can graft other varieties onto those potentially. Like if, if they do have large leaves like I think American Hornbeam, pretty small leaf, I would leave that alone. But American beech, for example, could you graft another variety of beech on, on there to help with ramp ramification? I think that could be fun to.
[01:48:14] Speaker C: Experiment with too Yeah, I mean, to be Thomas, I've never actually worked with American beach, so I don't know how it compares to, like, Japanese beach or European beach, But as long as the barch mat, the bark match is pretty good. Like, I would imagine putting Korean hornbeam onto American hornbeam would look weird because the barks are so different.
But, yeah, I mean, it's always someone in. Somebody can do the experiment and find out. Right.
But there's. There's certainly, like, plenty of other species. Maybe, like, beach isn't the best example or whatever, but, you know, there's. There's other species out there that probably do have good matchups.
[01:48:59] Speaker A: Totally.
[01:49:02] Speaker C: Cool.
[01:49:03] Speaker A: All right, guys. Well, I really, really appreciate your time. It was super cool to get to meet you, Michael, and I am so stoked to be watching along, following along on your bonsai journey of both you guys.
And I hope we can talk more. I had a really good time. Like, I would love to podcast with both of you guys at some point, if you'd ever be down one on one.
[01:49:30] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. And, yeah, let's follow up with that. For sure.
Like, you know, I'm gonna have more. A little more time in January. I'm gonna be wrapped up here recently, but yeah, maybe. Maybe in January we could follow up.
I would love it if you have. Yeah. If you have time.
[01:49:50] Speaker A: Absolutely, Absolutely.
[01:49:53] Speaker B: You can watch me either rise as a star or crash down spectacular fashion.
[01:49:58] Speaker A: Either way, definitely going to be rising. Definitely going to be rising, Michael. Super cool, man. And it's been really fun to follow along with you on Instagram and through Bjorn's platform, which is absolutely awesome.
So thank you so much for the time, man. I really appreciate it.
[01:50:16] Speaker B: Thank you.
It worked out really good.
Being here at SAS Places is perfect.
[01:50:23] Speaker A: Yeah. I hope you guys keep having a blast together and. Oh, yeah, I hope you don't get too sick off that American food, and maybe you guys can get some good, good stuff. But I really appreciate it.
[01:50:37] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I appreciate you having.
Yeah. I really would like to talk.
[01:50:43] Speaker A: Absolutely, man. Anytime. You're always. Both of you guys, always welcome on here right now. Thank you so much.
[01:50:51] Speaker C: Yeah, I know.
Said you got.
Thank you so much.
[01:50:58] Speaker A: Really appreciate it.
