#32 Austin Heitzman

[00:00:00] Speaker A: To baby trees. [00:00:11] Speaker B: The Black Pondo podcast. The Black Ponda podcast, I guess. Austin, I was really curious if you could tell me a little bit about the national show and kind of like the. The journey to get there. Did you actually drive out there? [00:00:31] Speaker A: No, I did not. Thank God. Because that is a haul from this coast. And it shows too, because I think me and now were the only western artists represented at the show. And that kind of went for a lot of the trees too. There was not a lot of western trees. Todd came out from Denver and so, you know, the Rockies were decently represented. And Isaiah up, you know, on the. I guess he's in Wisconsin or. Yeah, somewhere up that way. Racine. Ish. I think that's Wisconsin. But other than that, it was a very east coast dominant show, which was interesting because I'm just not as familiar with that crowd. I know a lot of those people. I've seen them around, but I just. Yeah, I don't see them as much on a daily basis. So it was kind of a new group of people, people to be around. A lot of them I haven't seen since the last time I did the national show, which was two nationals ago. So it's been four years at this point. So it was a bit of catch up on that. But it's interesting. I mean, you. You do the Pacific Bonsai Expo and the National. They're two very different shows with very different aesthetics. And it was interesting to kind of see. See that at work. But there was. It was well attended. I mean, they had. The ABS Convention was in tandem. [00:01:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that. That was cool that they. [00:02:01] Speaker A: They did that, I thought, and I think. [00:02:03] Speaker B: Interesting approach. [00:02:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And the hope was that that would bring a larger crowd to do both events. And I think it did work. And I think there was a lot of people that participated in both. It was really well attended even by the locals as well. I remember. What was it? Friday night they got in set up or. No, it's Thursday night. Got in. You know, it was late. I was kind of antsy off after getting off an airplane. So I just kind of went through a walk through East Rochester, which is, you know, a ghost town after about 7:30 at night. And one of the local bars was closing up and I was just kind of walking down the street as some of the gals were coming out of the bar after the closing. Some people that worked there and they were talking about, you know, oh, what are you gonna do this weekend? And I just overheard one of them saying, I'm gonna go Check out the, the Banzai Show. Just this little, little snippet, you know, out of just the, you know, the, the local pop. It was just so funny to hear. I was like, wow, that's amazing that, you know, like everybody's coming in and in the bonsai community, the national is a big deal. But to just like randomly hear it mentioned among the, you know, local population was. Was really nice. It was like, wow, okay, well, this is making an impact obviously, which is cool. [00:03:22] Speaker B: That's great. That's fun. [00:03:23] Speaker A: So. And the rumor mill has it that Bill wants to do another one, so that's great. [00:03:29] Speaker B: Fantastic. Fantastic. So how'd you get everything over there? [00:03:33] Speaker A: And so I thumbed a ride and now's van, now rented a van and had someone drive it out. And I was able to secure a little space in that van for my work. Which is the reason I haven't been to a national in four years is because getting the work, enough work out there to make that kind of journey worth the experience is, is kind of the challenge. I think the first time I did the national, I did it out of a suitcase. And there's just only so much work you can bring, you know, dollar wise in a suitcase. And so at that point, it turns out, you know, it just basically is a working vacation because best you can hope for is breaking even. So to actually make it a productive business experience as well was. Was nice. [00:04:23] Speaker B: That's great. Were you able to bring enough of your product? [00:04:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, we, me and Al both, I mean, with room to spare, I brought a lot of stuff out to the point where I was just kind of throwing in things that was hardly usual product. I brought out some, some things more, I would call them bonsai experiments. I've been. How long has it been going to talk about fossils now that it's been 15 seconds into this conversation, but I've been collecting fossils. It's just a hobby. I feel like bonsai used to be my hobby and then it became somewhat of a profession. And so I felt like there was a work life balance that was out of whack. And I was desperately in search of a new hobby and kind of discovered that. But the long and the short of it is some of these rocks that I'm digging out of the hillside have these kind of interesting Suiseki aesthetics to them. You know, there's the, you know, the fossil that's an object, an animal that's a representation. Like this is a shell. It looks like a shell, but there's some that are Slightly more abstract. Like, I found some sea urchin fossils that kind of look like this, like full sun. I mean, you imagine it's just a circle with these kind of radiating spines. It appears more kind of almost evocative of like a sun, you know, bright desert sun on this kind of, you know, bare rock face. And a couple others that kind of had these. They kind of transcended the fossil that they were and kind of became something else that was a little more abstract, a little more nuanced, a little more interpretive. You know, you let your mind kind of wander outside the literal. So I brought some of those just to kind of pitch them out there and see if anybody wanted to talk about them. [00:06:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:21] Speaker A: So. And yeah, they just kind of. Yeah. You know, I'm working on the bonsai crowd to get them into the, the fossil world. We're not there yet. There are some, some closet fossil folks in the bonsai community and I've enjoyed. Actually I'm trying to collect. Going on hunts with as many as I can. Been on hunts with Steve Barland, which was just an amazing experiment I'm working on. Randy Knight. I think I got him. So that would, I would just love to go on a fossil dig with that guy. [00:06:57] Speaker B: Sure. He would be. He would get very good at fossil collection. Yeah. I mean, a short amount of time. [00:07:03] Speaker A: It'S the same game. It's a treasure hunt in nature, you know, and you're packing out a ton of poundage. The only difference is you don't have to keep the thing alive when you get home, you know, which is kind of nice. Yeah, you leave the truck packed and you go to bed and wake up in the morning and then you're like, oh, I can worry about this stuff now. Yeah, you know, so cool. [00:07:23] Speaker B: Are there some fossil collecting areas near you? [00:07:27] Speaker A: Mm, yeah, we have some almost world famous sites just within an hour and a half of Portland, actually quite in the direction of Mirai. And I've been trying to work on Ryan to get him out, but he's a busy guy. It's hard to, to nail down. But yeah, just out that way, not far. [00:07:46] Speaker B: Oh, that's so cool. Yeah, I can't, I can't help but follow a few fossil collecting people on Instagram. They, they always get me when they, they have a rock and then they break it open. They like split it in half and then I will just want to see what's going on inside. And so I do. There are a few people that I do follow fossil wise. [00:08:09] Speaker A: It's. It's magic. It's like finding a perfect juniper in a rock pocket. It's the same thrill, high exhilaration of just kind of nature just opening itself up for you and just being what you want it to be at the time. Yeah, I think it's just an easy transition to, like, the woodwork as well. You know, if you're into bonsai, you're into nature, you're in the trees. It's not a hard leap to get into woodwork and get into that side of things. And likewise, I don't think it's a very big leap to get into, you know, the fossils and the history of nature. You know, seeing the evolution of leaves. I mean, just leaf fossils and seeing how an oak leaf has evolved and the past 40 million years is really quite fascinating, I think. [00:08:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:55] Speaker A: So it all kind of dovetails. [00:08:58] Speaker B: Most definitely. Most definitely. That's so cool. Well, you know, I guess I was really curious how you got into bonsai and stand making and how that all kind of came about. Would you give me an overview on which one came first and what. What order you got into those? [00:09:18] Speaker A: I came first. I was doing bonsai long before woodworking. You know, speaking of dovetails, it was actually the bonsai that pushed me into the woodworking, really. [00:09:29] Speaker B: Okay. [00:09:30] Speaker A: So when I was in art school in college, I was looking. It was back Walter Paul blog days and kind of discovered that and was just really interested in the movement he was getting out of these trees, you know, that. Just the dynamic movement of them. And then I was just very fascinated in how that movement that seemed so immediate and so dynamic was created so slowly. You know, like, there's. There's, like, unified movement. The tree looks like it's just doing one thing that you would react in an instant, but this is something that you develop over 10, 20, 30 years, you know, hundreds of times. And so I was kind of looking at that movement to inspire my artwork. And I was making sculptures that were somewhat influenced by bonsai trees and just kind of that, you know, dynamic movement in them. And then at a point, I decided that I kind of wanted to learn that skill, talent, ability, whatever you want to call it, of, you know, making, you know, creating an image that is instantaneous and dynamic, but doing it over this expansive period of time and kind of learning the patience and the discipline and the organization to be able to do that. So I started kind of doing bonsai as a hobby myself. I was living in Philadelphia at the time, and that city has a lot of areas that are kind of Fallow, I guess, if you want to put it. Just kind of abandoned spaces. I was living out in West Philly, and there was an old ancient cemetery not far from my house that, I mean, it was, for all practical purposes, closed, abandoned, done. I mean, the unmaintained. It was just this wild space. There was a lot of rough stuff going out on out there, not great stuff, but at the same time, it was like this free, wild space in the middle of this urban environment where I could go collect trees. I would get burls from there. You know, there'd be a lot of fallen trees that I could saw the burls off of. And I could also collect bonsai trees off of the kind of nooks and crannies of. There was creeks going through there with, you know, rock faces, and I actually got a couple of decent trees out of that park. But it was just kind of like, you know, you. Here we have our BLM land, and you can go out and get lost easily. But in the northeast, Philadelphia, I mean, you can drive for an hour and a half, and you're still in the city. So to be able to go 15 minutes up the road and, you know, essentially be in nature was just really something that I was in love with. And so I started kind of developing the hobby. Chase Rosade is out that way, and so he was in early. I would go by his garden and kind of poke around and just kind of be that fly on the wall. At the time, he had no clue who I was. I didn't interface a lot, but I was very interested in what he was doing. And we'd chat, and, you know, I'd leave. I didn't take any classes, but I was very diligent, you know, kind of online and just influencing myself. And then after doing the. The bonsai for a bit, you're having to learn the, you know, the Latin names of these trees, and you're learning the biology of these trees. And that kind of pushed me to kind of want to understand, well, what's going on inside these trees. Like, you know, there's this variety of oak and elm and maple, and they're different. I see Their leaves are different. Their trunks are different. You know, is. Is the inside different? Like, I never thought about walnut lumber being something special or different from red oak lumber or any other lumber. It was just wood, you know? But then I started to realize, oh, there's not just a singular wood. It's diverse and dynamic, and there's all kinds of different woods, and they do different things. And they look differently. And so I just started cutting them up. [00:13:51] Speaker B: Interesting. So you're saying that bonsai really got you into woodworking and not the other way around? [00:13:59] Speaker A: Not the other way around at all. Not the other way around at all. And so I was doing. [00:14:05] Speaker B: Did you do any woodworking before bonsai? Like, I'm picturing like shop class in high school or anything like that. [00:14:12] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I took a shop class in middle school and I mean, I used tools. I cut two by fours and. But nothing. Like, I wasn't building anything of wood specific. [00:14:29] Speaker B: Okay. [00:14:30] Speaker A: In college, I was doing sculptural art pieces from wood. [00:14:34] Speaker B: Oh, that's cool. [00:14:35] Speaker A: But they weren't done in a way that was like, finely crafted. There were these kind of like. It would be more like vomited wood really than any kind of like, built piece. They were. I was tying them together with string and there's dumping gorilla glue on them and letting it fold foam. And they were just these ugly mess. I was kind of. My basic influence was basically like a. A tall sailing ship being drunk out of the ocean by a kraken and just ripped apart in the process. And just kind of. That flailing mass of exploding wood and arms was kind of where I was coming from with it. [00:15:11] Speaker B: Oh, interesting. Okay. And then I also see. I see a guitar behind you. Are you a guitar player? [00:15:19] Speaker A: No, that's my wife. [00:15:21] Speaker B: Oh, okay. Cool. Cool. [00:15:23] Speaker A: I. For some reason, the musical talent. I can't. I. It's just languages and music don't process well with me. I've never been adepted either. I. I'll. I'll. I'll sing when I'm bored, but I'm not good at it, so. But any guitar. I like guitars. I like what they're made of. I think they're beautiful objects. But. Yeah, no talent for myself. [00:15:49] Speaker B: Well, I. I grew up playing guitar. I was in a bunch of crappy bands back in the day, and. And I got really into the guitars themselves. And I think that was really my first exposure into wood and quality wood. Yeah. Learning. [00:16:04] Speaker A: There's a lot of wood engineering in guitar. [00:16:07] Speaker B: Oh, most definitely. Yeah. I was curious, like, do you. Would you ever make a guitar? And. And do you think that would be really challenging? [00:16:16] Speaker A: That would be extremely challenging. That is a very specific skill set, both electric or acoustic. I shared a shop space with an electric guitar maker for many years. He was a great guy. We were good friends and just watching the frustrations that he would run into. I mean, wood moves. It's. It's not a Stable medium to work with. And then furniture and bonsai stands, that's an issue. I gotta navigate that. But in a musical instrument, that is the precision, huh? It is a critical issue. I mean, that's like sending it to the moon kind of situation where if there is any degree of warpage, the tune is out and the instrument is. It's toast, you know? So, yeah, I. It would be an interesting challenge, but I think it would have to be one of those things where you'd have to build five guitars to build one guitar, you know, to get that skill set to be able to operate. I am having the privilege right now, though, of I have a client who has given me several pieces of Brazilian rosewood to make a bonsai stand for him out of. Wow. [00:17:34] Speaker B: Okay. [00:17:34] Speaker A: And that I am thoroughly enjoying. But, yeah. Yeah, that's probably about as close to guitar making as I'm going to get. [00:17:42] Speaker B: Yes. So from my understanding, Brazilian rosewood was kind of outlawed a long time, so they're just using stockpiles that are currently in existence. [00:17:54] Speaker A: It has to be cut by 1970, and you need documentation to prove that too. And even if you have that documentation and you take it across a border, you're losing it. So it all has to be within the country, documented. Apparently there's companies that go out into the forest and pull stumps of Brazilian rosewood trees to make little pin blanks and stuff out of. But even to do that, you need documentation that that tree was cut down before 1970. So it's. It's very heavily regulated. Very heavily. Yeah. So, yeah. [00:18:33] Speaker B: Gotcha. [00:18:34] Speaker A: It's a special wood to play with. [00:18:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I think I kind of always heard it being discussed as kind of like the holy grail of rosewood or maybe like the top tier of rosewood. Would you agree with that? [00:18:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it's. I mean, musically, it is an exceptional tone wood, so the musicians love it for its acoustic qualities. Aesthetically, it is an extremely beautiful wood at its best. It's. It's a deep, dark black with these, like, veins of brilliant red running through it. It's lustrous. I mean, it's been the wood of preference, you know, back 17, maybe even 1600s. I mean, it has been sought after, desired for centuries at this point. And then it smells beautiful when you cut it. It has. I mean, it's called rosewood because of the scent that it evokes when you. When you cut it. It has this wonderful fragrance to it that's. That's really quite pleasing. [00:19:38] Speaker B: Do you have a ranking of the rosewoods in your mind, or is that a little more blurry, like if Brazilian rosewood's at the top? [00:19:47] Speaker A: I think it's more blurry now just because the access to rosewood is so limited. It's kind of hard to have that ran because you just. It's. It's. Rosewood almost comes down to access at this point, you know, like, Brazilian is the top tier, but you don't see it out there. Every now and again, I'll go into a woodworker's shop and he'll pull out some prized billet of Brazilian rosewood that he's been saving for 15 years, and he's not going to sell it. You know, that's. That's his baby. [00:20:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:18] Speaker A: You see it as veneer. Occasionally they'll veneer old boards that they get from collections. I have some Brazilian rosewood veneer that I keep around just to play with and use because it is aesthetically pleasing. I think my biggest interest in the rosewood spectrum is I recently discovered that they are planting a true rosewood as a street tree in the southwest in Arizona and that area. And so to be able to get. Because, I mean, the dalbergia species in general, the rosewood species is kind of restricted in its movement and harvesting on the whole. And in fact, I'm not even sure if you can import rosewood into America anymore, that we're just operating off existing stock. That might not be completely true, but it's pretty close to that. It's very limited in how it can move around and be used. So finding a domestic rosewood, especially in a kind of more northern climate where you really don't expect it for from, was a really interesting discovery. And over Covid I was able to get. It was Dalbergia siso is the, you know, the official name of it, native to the Himalayan foothills. But they were. It works in a kind of more. It's. It's kind of an explorative riverside tree. So it's kind of used to an arid environment. Its roots are very good at kind of going through rock and. And exploring for any scrap of water that might be around, which makes it a horrible street tree because apparently it's decimating foundations and sucking up groundwater. So to be able to eliminate something like that and get to use a rosewood in the same swoop is kind of an amazing find. And it's a pretty wood. It has a nice reddish color. It's not as dark as the Brazilian or the East Indian that are a little more popular for bonsai purposes, but it is bonsai serviceable. In fact, I made a stand of it. For the national show, Kurt Dillo had a kind of desert tree. I'd never heard of the species before. I can't even remember what it was. Kind of styled it like those Bilbao trees. And it kind of had an appearance of almost a succulent tree hybrid look to a very fat trunk, beautiful peely bark. [00:22:47] Speaker B: I saw pictures. I really liked it. He did a very. [00:22:49] Speaker A: It was a very striking tree. Yeah, it's very beautiful tree. And the. The lighter red worked really well with the desert aesthetic. So we were. It really paired perfectly with that specific tree. So it was really fun to be able to apply it to a display like that. [00:23:04] Speaker B: That's so cool. I'll have to go back and look at that stand specifically. Now, I didn't know that that was the type of wood that it was made out of. Now, within. Within all types of trees, is there all much variation in the color for, like, same talking, same species? Is it all pretty much the same color, or can you find a lot of variation? [00:23:26] Speaker A: Tons of variation? I mean, you think of the foliage on. I mean, people talk about different junipers having different foliage characteristics. I mean, you think of our, you know, western walnut that you see out of California, with its reds and blues and all the different colors and figure. That's the same walnut that's growing in Pennsylvania. It's just the soil and environmental conditions influence how the grain characteristics are. Eastern walnut tends to be straighter grained, Less figure, less color variation. I mean, there's exceptions to that rule, but by and large, we're going to get massive color variation on the west coast, less so on the east. And then conversely, cherry. Pennsylvania cherry is known for its deep, rich red color, Whereas the cherry out here on the west coast can be almost green at times. It's not quite as aesthetic. It doesn't get that deep red. At best, you can hope for kind of an orangish color out of it. But again, that's the soil and environment influencing the grain. I mean, a lot of that grain color that you're seeing is kind of minerals and stuff in the soil being taken into the tree. [00:24:46] Speaker B: Okay. [00:24:47] Speaker A: And so that kind of affects how it is. And then there's always just. I mean, they call it freak figure and. And the kind of woodworking world where you just get one specific specimen that has just done something for some reason that is just completely unusual. You know, trees are individuals just like us, and they have. I don't know if I'd call it genetic mutations, but they certainly have aesthetic mutations. And you come upon them from time to time, where you just get these figures that are just beautiful and extraordinary, but just not something you're ever going to see again. [00:25:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:24] Speaker A: And it's just a blast. [00:25:28] Speaker B: That's fascinating. I'm really curious about figuring, coming from a guitar background, where we talk about like, you know, the perfect flame maple or that bird's eye quilted maple, or, you know, we always go for like the. At least in the electric guitar world, you look for like the most flashiest piece. Do you think that translates well to bonsai tables? What are your thoughts there? [00:25:57] Speaker A: I think it's an aesthetic issue, and I think it depends because of that. I think it needs to be taken into consideration with the display at large. Same way ornamentation on a stand will work for certain trees, but not others. I think, you know, figure has a visual. A visual presence and power to it, and that needs to be balanced with the tree. It is fun to go balls out and extreme figure and, you know, the smaller scale of musical instruments and bonsai stands does kind of allow for that. It's difficult in the furniture world to really dive into the figure is hard because that wood tends to demand a higher price point material wise. And it can be very prohibitive if you're paying, you know, 50 bucks a square foot, which is not even that high in the. The world of highly figured lumber. If you're building a table or something, that adds up very quickly. But in bonsai, where you're using maybe 3 square feet of wood for a stand, suddenly it's not the most unreasonable thing to consider. However, again, like I said, I mean, if it's a tree that's very quiet and subdued and you throw a bunch of figure at the stand, it can imbalance the whole composition. Where if it's a very strong, robust tree, maybe a very dynamic, you know, sinuous tree with jen and deadwood, that figure can be, you know, very complementary and work with the overall display. So I think, yeah, it's very case by case basis, but, you know, it's not something that should be avoided and doesn't apply to bonsai. I think it's. There's a place for it. I just feel like it has to be considered. [00:27:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I would agree 100%. It seems like you have to find the right balance and it has to work well with the tree, which is kind of everything when it comes to bonsai. Matching the right stand and the right tree is so challenging. And throwing figure in there, I think makes things even more complicated. And I could see how it would be almost too powerful if you use too much figuring or too, too wild of figuring. But it could also be nice little accents or if it's not so dramatic. [00:28:31] Speaker A: Sometimes that figure plays to the. I mean, to the stand. You know, in one case, I had a. A slab. I mean, it's not a stand, per se, but it was a slab. And. And the grain pattern made this kind of perfect bullseye around that piece and really framed the tree on top, because it was kind of in this pool of grain pattern going around it. So that, you know, it's. You know, figure pretty much refers to any kind of character in the wood. Usually it's curls and bubbles and stuff like that, but it also kind of applies to coloring and, you know, patches of different patterns in the wood. But in that case, you know how that patterning really kind of helped emphasize and frame that tree. So, I mean, that's kind of the beauty of bonsai display is just there isn't room for extraneous elements. Everything needs to be considered. There's nothing to hide behind. They're very minimal in their aesthetics. So each of these elements really plays into the whole overall image and really needs to be considered. But then that is kind of the beauty in front of it is that, you know, you do get to let these little things kind of speak instead of just being kind of lost in this, you know, overall, just kind of, I guess, washed out, you know, in terms of just kind of. What's the right word for that? But, yeah, they get their day. They get to be seen, which is fun, most definitely. And if you. [00:30:09] Speaker B: Yeah, awesome. One thing that I don't know when it comes to podcasting is sometimes it just. The conversation goes all over the place, and then sometimes I. I tend to follow a nice, clean format. I'm kind of good with both ways of going about things, but we may, like, bounce around a bit, I guess. [00:30:31] Speaker A: So I'm happy bouncing. I've learned to be a little more disciplined. I think the first podcast I did, they got. I mean, we were out in outer space. We weren't even talking about nature. You know, we were. So far. I mean, we weren't. Not only were we not all bonsai, we were just. I mean, it was just total craziness. We got a little more disciplined about at least being focused on the subject at hand, and I think we're doing a good job on that front. I tried to sidetrack us with apostles, but we're got right back on course here. We're doing great. So I'm happy to meander. I have no agenda here to really track, but. [00:31:05] Speaker B: Okay, awesome. Me too. Well, I have just a thousand questions in my head, but why don't I try and go back a little bit? I want to learn a little bit more about your story. And then I still have other questions about wood as well and just your thoughts on stand making and all that. But. So talk to me a little bit more about transitioning over from having an interest in bonsai to stand making. Like, what were those initial years like for you? So, and when did it happen? [00:31:38] Speaker A: Happened around the time I moved to Portland. So I was like, 2011. I had been interested in woodworking prior. I had a job at the Philadelphia Museum of Art. I was handling their collection. And a significant part of their collection was furniture. Mostly colonial, but they spanned all the way to Nakashima. They had modern works as well as, you know, more historic pieces. But really being able to handle and get in close and take those pieces apart, I mean, to be able to deconstruct literally a 17th century, you know, case piece from Philadelphia was just. It's an amazing. And you can see the woodworkers decisions. You can see, you know, we're pulling drawers out, you're taking the top off or unscrewing pieces, you know, so you're seeing the inner workings out of these things. And it was just fascinating to experience. So I think through that, I really caught the woodworking bug. I would go in after hours. They had a wood shop there for crate making and stuff. And I would bring burls into the wood shop and cut them up. And every now and again, I'd cut into one that had a nest of carpenter ants in it and just unleash this like, yikes storm. I know of these insects that were like the last thing the museum wanted to have in the space. And I was frantically vacuuming them up, trying not to get caught. Being the one who introduced the nest of carpenter ants into the furniture collection, but really got fascinated with woodworking. I was making furniture pieces just kind of for friends and. And then friends of friends, you know, on the side at the time. And then around. [00:33:22] Speaker B: Were you taking classes or were you. How were you learning the technical ability of woodworking? [00:33:28] Speaker A: I hate to say it, but a little bit of YouTube and a lot of messing up, really, it was just. I was just kind of going at it, and I wasn't really too intimidated about messing up stuff. I was just. Just experimenting and learning through my mistakes, you know, and I made plenty of those. But I made some nice stuff, too. In the process. I was just trying to figure out, you know, what. What I did enjoy, like, what kind of. How did I want to work with wood? I was using a lot of foundation pieces that were kind of sculptural and natural, so live edge in a sense. But more in the round. Like I made a coffee table. There was this. I don't know how old it was, but in Jersey, there was this ancient oak. I mean, the trunk was probably 8ft diameter that they had cut down, and it was all bucked up to be removed for firewood or whatever. And there was this branch piece. And I mean, the branch piece was like three feet. You can't even see my hands in the image, but it was like 3ft diameter, completely hollow. So it was just the outer 2 inches of wood that had kind of the live area that had grown around this cut section. So it was this weird piece, but it was beautiful. And it had this graceful arc to the top. Kind of looks like some sort of monster's mouth. You have kids, you know, the. The hungry thing kind of looked like the hungry things could just gobble up anything and kind of made that into. I had a shelf suspended in the hollow area and a coffee table floating over top. But kind of working with wood there and it on its own terms and trying to figure out how I can incorporate that into a piece. Kind of coming out of those weird sculpture days. [00:35:24] Speaker B: Yeah. So back then, were there individuals that were influencing your woodwork or who was the most inspirational woodworkers that you looked up to and has not evolved over time a little bit? [00:35:40] Speaker A: I mean, Nakashima was a very big influence. But then also being at the museum, I think there was just. It was kind of coming from every direction. I kind of had access to a lot of influence. You know, Wendell Castle had some pieces there that were really interesting. They had an excellent Chinese collection of some antique Chinese pieces. Out of that hung Holly, how you pronounce it, the rosewood that they were using a lot. Very beautiful rosewood. I think it's completely extinct at this point. [00:36:13] Speaker B: Is it have a redder tint to it? [00:36:16] Speaker A: Is that. [00:36:16] Speaker B: Yeah, it has red that you're talking about? [00:36:18] Speaker A: Yeah, it has that really red tint to it, kind of, I think same story as Brazilian rosewood, where it had a high desirability early, you know, in history and was harvested to near extinction long before modern man even got an opportunity to industrialize that, you know. And then the colonial works were really, you know, impactful. They had a big shaker Collection and the shaker simplicity I found really beautiful too. [00:36:49] Speaker B: And now early on, so. So you were finding wood just like you do now and were you drying wood like right off the bat? I guess, you know, if I got into woodworking, I would, I would think to go to a place that sells, you know, draw dry lumber and go about it in that manner. But I, I love that. The fact that you got a piece of oak from an oak tree that just seems like you started from the absolute ground and worked your way up. And I'm very impressed that you went that route is that kind of. That was just the, the thought in terms of getting into woodworking, you know. [00:37:31] Speaker A: I mean, I was coming at it more aesthetically than practically speaking. Like, I was very interested in how it looked in its shape, in this kind of natural form. I didn't quite have the knowledge at that point to fully understand the drying process. That was part of the learning curve. I learned fast through doing that because when you take wet wood to dry, there's a lot of frustrations that are going to happen there. So you do have to kind of develop that understanding of how wood dries and moves to be able to play with it on that level. And I was going like we, you know, we'd go on vacation up to Vermont and pass a lumber mill and I would, you know, go in and find four boards that just like had really interesting character and look to them and you know, I'd buy those and take them home and cherish them. You know, my son has a little cabinet I built ages ago, not for long before he was a thought, you know, but it has probably about seven different kinds of woods that I had collected from different mills and kind of cobbled together in a pattern on the door. And then a beach root that I had found and sawn almost like a jita, you know, and that kind of patterning. But it had. Wasn't a round piece. It kind of had grown and gnarled and so it almost looks like a kind of had this look of like a monkey hanging from a tree holding something like it had appendages and a head and had a really interesting shape to that. So I used that as decoration on the front, kind of affixed it to it. So kind of coming at it from the pre made lumber and then kind of the found object side. And I think that's what always attracted me about bonsai is where these, you know, they're natural found objects. I mean, you can grow them from seed and make them how you want them. But there's a large Yamadori contingent to that where you're taking something that's pre formed in a lot of ways and drawing inspiration from that natural object. And you can manipulate it, you can change it to some degree, but it's not completely your creation. You're. You're taking it forwards. But there's a base that's already been established and that's always something I've been very interested in. And that has continued to this day. I mean the live edge work and that's what that is to me, you know, and then all the kind of side interests. I mean, Suiseki is a big influence on my woodwork. Just kind of the stone and using the stone that, you know, laying on the ground is nothing but stood in a certain way. Suddenly it's transportive. And that quality in the natural object is just fascinating. So yeah, I was, you know, I cut an apple tree down from my in laws house that they were trying to get rid of and carried it home and put it in the basement and it never even got used. I ended up giving it to a buddy when I left Philadelphia because I had big plans for the thing, but I was never able to actualize them. It just, it was too close to the end there. But it was just around like 2008 hit, just as I was kind of thinking as maybe it's time to leave Philly. And then the recession hit. Had the job at the museum, the initial layoffs happened and I wasn't part of that. And so the general thought was, well, we're gainfully employed with benefits, no need to rock the boat, let's just kind of wait this out and we'll leave Philly when the time comes. And it was over that span, 2008 to 2011, that I think I just really lost myself in the woodwork. Partially as an escape for kind of being for all intents and purposes stuck. And then also it's just kind of. I just grew increasingly fascinated with it. So when 2011 came, we're like, all right, it's not going to get any better than this. Quickly, you know, this is good enough, it's time to go. So I ended up moving to Portland, totally unbeknownst about the. The bonsai scene out here. We picked it more for its history and craft and its kind of openness to craft and craft scene. There was a big craft furniture scene this way. A number of galleries all down the west coast. Unfortunately, most of those have now closed in the, you know, since that time. But coincidentally around about the same time, Ryan Neal moved out here. And, you know, I came to Portland with the same interest in bonsai that I had in Philadelphia. And so I attended a. Attended a BSOP meeting early on which Michael Hagedorn happened to be speaking at. And then I think that awareness of, you know, the bonsai world and my interest in the woodwork, I kind of. Those two worlds kind of came together and I kind of understood, well, there is this woodworking contingent to bonsai. There's the display stands. Like there is a place where the bonsai and the woodwork intersect. And so I reached out to Michael Hagedorn. Kind of a cold email, I think. We had looked at an apartment with someone who was a friend of his, and it was kind of the closest connection. I was like, hey, I know this friend of yours. I do bonsai, and I understand there's this woodworking element to bonsai. Can I talk to you about this? Because I didn't know anything about display at that point. And he was kind enough to meet up and just let me pick his brain about bonsai display and the conventions of bonsai display and what was good, what was bad, what did it need? I mean, it was kind of like a potter for the first time learning what does a bonsai pot need to. Where you had to secure it and how, you know, like, all the details that you know are very specific and important, but it's just not intuitive, just coming from it. And then I made a few stands for him to play with and, you know, and just kind of see how they worked. And he put them on his. On his blog and Ferrand from Funsight Focus saw them and did a little write up on them, kind of out of the blue. And then Ryan Neal saw that write up and contacted me and invited me out to Mirai to talk about making a few stands. And, you know, I was giddy as a schoolgirl about that. I mean, I had known I had a Kimura book from Philadelphia with Ryan Neal in the back and his puka shell necklace as an apprentice, you know, so I had kind of known who this guy, you know, prior to this, you know, just through all that, I. I thought Kimura's work was amazing. I just loved how he was just kind of, again, really exploiting these natural objects, getting that real dynamic shape to them, which I really enjoyed. And then. Ditz. Go ahead. [00:44:57] Speaker B: Oh, I was just gonna say, I think it's so funny that Ryan Neal is known for his puka shell necklace. [00:45:03] Speaker A: It came up as a national Somebody was, oh, no, I was taking a class with Scott Elser the other day and he was talking about how he was taking a class with Kimura ages ago. Like Boone was supposed to be interpreting and instead Kimura brought his own interpreter who so happened to be Ryan Neal. Like two years into his apprenticeship with the. He was like, he still had his puka shell necklace on. It's like a, it's kind of a how you had to time caps how you date them, you know, Ryan circa, you know. [00:45:35] Speaker B: Oh, circa Puka 2000. [00:45:36] Speaker A: And yeah, you know, he said it's puka shells. Like Picasso had his blue period. You know, Ryan had his puka period. It's hilarious. Yeah. [00:45:44] Speaker B: Oh man, I totally remember when those were the coolest thing ever. [00:45:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I remember that I'm old enough to have worn one myself at one point, I believe so. You know, I can't say too much there. Um, Love it, Love it. [00:46:01] Speaker B: That's great. So, so Austin, I'm here. I. At no point have you said, then I took woodworking classes or you know, I had a mentor from the woodworking perspective. And so it's mostly self taught, would you say? [00:46:18] Speaker A: I would say exclusively. I've never had a woodworking class in my life. I've taught. [00:46:23] Speaker B: Wow. [00:46:23] Speaker A: Several, but I've never taken one. [00:46:27] Speaker B: Okay. So I am, I'm incredibly impressed there. I mean, I absolutely love your work. I think it is so well done. Such high quality, high, high level of craftsmanship if I always think about. Actually I always think if I was a wealthier man, I would just want to hire you to make every single piece of furniture in my house. And I feel like a lot of bonsai people feel the exact same way as me. I know, I've talked to Sam Tan about that and I know you've built some furniture for his house, but I just think your work is, is so well done. And it surprises me that you are mostly self taught because your level is just so incredibly high. And I just absolutely love everything that you're doing. I feel like we have a few individuals in the US that I consider like American bonsai national treasures. And I consider you one of them. A hundred percent like a protect this guy at all costs kind of thing. So we gotta watch your back and just the highest level of compliment to your work, it's. It's incredible. I will, I will try my best. [00:47:43] Speaker A: Yeah, no, no threat at the moment, I don't think. But yeah. Thank you. I don't know what to even add to that. Yeah, I Yeah, I. Sorry. I'm not great with praise, but, yeah, thanks. I mean, it means a lot. It does. It means a lot. And I think it's just. Yeah, it's just always trying to up that bar and just not kind of ever being satisfied with the level that you're at, and it's just trying to keep pushing that envelope of what you can do. I. I think anybody can do it with any medium, woodworking, bonsai, you name it. You know, if you achieve something you're proud of and then it's. The next step is, okay, how can I do one better than that? And. And then you just keep climbing that staircase, and it doesn't end. There is no top to that staircase. I mean, I continue. I mean, I'm proud of what I do, but every time I finish one, I'm. I'm ready for the next and the next challenge and, you know, the one better. Hopefully. Hopefully I mature like wine and not get vinegar. But, yeah, it's. It's a. Yeah. [00:49:07] Speaker B: Yeah, most definitely. Yeah. I think that it's so important to make those small, incremental improvements over time, and I think that's how we really achieve great things in life. It's not about, like, the massive things that happen so much in your life. It's more so about, like, how do you optimize everything on it on a daily basis, and how do you keep building upon what you've already built? And even if it's just small little baby steps, I think that's the right way to go about things, and I definitely see that in your work, and you're doing a phenomenal job. [00:49:45] Speaker A: It's that same progression as developing a bonsai tree. You know, you're creating something that is absolutely, you know, singular in scope, but it's something that is done in small baby steps over many, many years, and it's something that is never done. You know, your most refined, beautiful, developed bonsai tree you own in 10 years is going to be more refined, beautiful, and developed, and it, you know, maybe restyled, maybe different. I mean, it's something that is continually elevated every year that you put into it. So, yeah, it. [00:50:20] Speaker B: 100%, most definitely. It does. You know, So I have a question for you, and I feel like it's not a question that I would want to answer. [00:50:36] Speaker A: Great. [00:50:39] Speaker B: And partly, you know, like, back in the day, I remember I was in a bunch of bad bands. We weren't that great. But I hated the question when people would ask me, like, what genre are you? Because I didn't want to put myself in a box, you know, But I. I guess I'm really curious how would. How you describe your personal style and maybe philosophy when it comes to stand making? I. I know that's not exactly the same question as what genre are you? But, you know, it's hard to put labels on yourself, or sometimes it can be hard to describe your own work. [00:51:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I guess, like, you know, husband before the. The natural object really inspires me. And so I really enjoy working, you know, with that kind of, I guess, leaping from the found object, whether that be, you know, the natural edge, the sculptural wood piece, or even the figure in the board. But I feel like, you know, that's. That's always kind of been something that's driven me. I was taking that class just the other day, and. And, you know, they were saying, like, you know, I guess we got on the subject of talking about, you know, traditional stands versus modern ones, and I was kind of like, I think traditional stands are awesome. And they're like, well, you're. You know, you're. You're known for not traditional. And I was like, yeah, but I've got nothing against the traditional stands. And if somebody were to come and won a very traditional bonsai stand, I would be exhilarated to build it. There's a technical challenge there that's really fun to delve into. [00:52:29] Speaker B: I was curious your thoughts. [00:52:31] Speaker A: For me, it's kind of finding that unity of taking inspiration from the traditional but then kind of applying these other forms to it, I think is what really I find is that kind of intersection between something that maybe is a little more, I want to say modern, because that kind of comes with an aesthetic, you know, but something that's less traditional in the terms of the use of the wood and the way the wood is applied to the woodwork, but then with those kind of more traditional flourishes. A lot of times when I'm using live edge in the wood, I'm looking at it in terms of sculptural carving. And a lot of times it's. I'm evoking very traditional carved elements. I mean, I've done a number more in the furniture as well, but, you know, I've done. Used natural edge. You know, they're almost like. What's the word? Cartouches or whatever, like toppings on pieces of furniture that are very traditionally carved. But then I find a live edge that has that same shape and flow, and I'll use that as kind of the topping instead. And similarly, in, in bonsai stands and decorative elements under the, you know, the top using live edge curves that kind of mimic, you know, traditional wood carving elements. So, yeah, it's kind of having that foot in both worlds if I'm allowed to. I'm not trying to, I guess, disrespect anything in that. I have like, absolute respect for, you know, the traditional. I'm not, you know, trying to poo poo it and saying, oh, we're gonna, that's the past. We're gonna push forward. It's kind of like, well, I wanna, I wanna hold on to that, but I wanna kind of reinvent it in, in a way that I find interesting. And, you know, that excites me. So, you know, I think, I guess if I had to pick a style, it was what interests me. You know, it's, it's where my passion lies and that evolves over time. I think the stands I'm making today are different from the stands I made five, 10 years ago. And that is just kind of as my natural exploration has taken shape, you know, I've been carving a lot more stands. Like on your redwood stand, I was, you know, that's a technique that I kind of developed out of a frustration of being able to want to bend the wood and incorporate the live edge. But technically it's, that's not possible because the, the, the, you know, the, the grain characteristics of the wood. You just can't get a bend reliably. You need straight grained, you know, pieces to do that. So by carving, I can kind of sidestep that. But that has led to exploring all kinds of new forms in terms of what I can shape and do and has led to a suite of stands that, you know, have a different aesthetic than, you know, something I was looking at, you know, five years ago. But then a lot of that carving technique comes out of, you know, traditional carved cabriolet legs that you see in furniture. And, and then the technique I use is, is simply a cove cutting technique for, for your, your molding in your house. It's kind of an old carpenter's hack where you just kind of run wood tangential over the blade instead of cutting it. You use the blade as a, basically a shaping wheel. Not totally the safest thing. Not something I would recommend anybody doing without extreme practice because it's a, it's a lawsuit waiting to happen there. But the guy, a guy at a museum taught me that trick ages ago. And it just happens to work where you can cut a big cove out of a piece of wood. But, yeah. I don't know if that completely answers the question, but I think I. Yeah, yeah. You kind of understand. [00:56:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:41] Speaker A: The reluctance to answer it. [00:56:43] Speaker B: Yeah. It's a challenging question to answer. And I think I was even thinking about the name of this podcast, the Black Pondo Podcast. It's really a fusion of traditional Japanese in the black pine grafted onto a ponderosa, which is an American tree. And I think a lot of the name behind this podcast is because I'm always searching for what is the right answer to blend traditional Japanese with American bonsai. Like, what are we doing? What is the goal? And I feel like it's not a really simple explanation. It more so deserves long format conversations. [00:57:32] Speaker A: Yeah. It's an exploration more than a. And I think bonsai requires you to kind of internalize the tradition and rehash it in your own way. I mean, when you think about use of your species, I mean, certain trees don't exist well in certain environments. So you're drawing a lot from your native plant culture. And all those native plants come with benefits, and they also come with restrictions and limitations and sometimes their own beauty. There's not a lot of ponderosas being used in Japan, you know, specifically for the reason they don't really grow there. And we can import some traditional Japanese species here, but in some regions, they don't take or do as well as the natives. And then we have vast swaths of. Of native material that is amazing here. [00:58:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:29] Speaker A: And influences the aesthetic of the trees we make. I mean, I saw it at the National. I mean, having the. The Western influence kind of taken out, you didn't quite see the kind of yamadori, Rocky Mountain heavy species in the show that you would see it like a Pacific malte exhibition or something, or like the artisan's cup or something out here. It's just that native plants are just of a different spectrum and that influenced kind of the art and what that's, you know, is being produced. But that's kind of the beauty of it. I mean, the same way the Japanese took kind of pinjing and made it their own and developed their own aesthetics around it and kind of developed that further. And, you know. Yeah, I heard people argue that, you know, the Chinese brought pinching from somewhere else, you know, that. That trees have existed in pots before then. I mean, who knows where it started and how it started. But just that way of capturing and displaying nature at its best and kind of developing nature into art is just kind of. I think there's a natural Pull there. And I think every location has its own way of, you know, expressing the nature that's around them and working with what's there. So. [00:59:56] Speaker B: Yeah, no, absolutely. You know, circling back, Austin, you said something really interesting. I always was curious, like, if you would be open or interested in making a traditional Japanese stand, like, maybe something we would see in the. In kokufu. And I think you answered that question like, so I would love to see that. I would just be very curious what it ends up looking like. [01:00:23] Speaker A: That would be the thing. I would be up for it, but I don't know how. I wouldn't. Like, I wouldn't. I don't know if just copying verbatim would be something. I'd be completely into it. It would be an interesting challenge technically, but I don't think I would have the same passion for it. [01:00:41] Speaker B: But now, what about if someone gave you. Okay, in this kokufu book, page 87. I really love this. Stan, can you make this for me? But I want you to put your own flair on it. Do you like that idea? [01:00:57] Speaker A: Billion times. I mean, I pour over. I have a file on my computer of kokofu images that I review regularly. I draw a lot of inspiration from kokufu stands, Japanese traditional stands. In the same way, pulling from the colonial pieces. Yeah, it's a big influence. I do that all the time. When developing stands, I'll. I'll go through and I'll look at, you know, more traditional pieces that are, you know, paired with similar trees and see how they did it. And then kind of be like, well, I really like these elements. And then these elements remind me of this. And then I'm like, you know, at times it'll be like, well, this element reminds me of this colonial piece, which, by and large, is probably inspired by, you know, Asian furniture and design. And. And then maybe there's a fusion of those two that can come together where that kind of circle is completed, where the inspiration is kind of through history, come completely around, full circle. And that's always a lot of fun. I love doing that. A lot of colonial American furniture is inspired by Japanese and Chinese furniture. So there's a real link there culturally. So, yeah. [01:02:23] Speaker B: So cool. I love it. Well, at some point in the near future, and so I've kind of been waiting because I want to make sure that the tree is going to be ready. But my next PE Entry, it's hopefully going to be a Sierra juniper, one of my favorite trees. And I'd really like for you to make the stand for me. And I have kind of an idea based off of a kokufu stand that I like, but I would want you to put your own take on it. [01:02:53] Speaker A: Yeah. So be a blast. Love to. Don't wait till the last minute. Ran into that issue with the, the national here. I guess notices were sent out in like July on who was in and not. And I got this deluge of calls in July for, you know, September, which, you know, normally, you know, my lead time is three months, basically. So it was, it was tight. I had to say no. And I hate saying no to jobs because I hate turning away anything. But there was a point where I was just like, I took a few and I was kind of like, that's, that's all I can manage, you know, in the, in the time frame. So. Yeah, then that goes out to everyone out there. Get early because. Yeah, especially if you want something that's highly developed and, you know, original in that sense. I mean, it's easy to just rehash a design or something, you know, that can be done a lot quicker. But sometimes that design process can take a long time. I mean, I've been in discussion with someone for a stand for the PBE now for, since the last one pretty much, and we still haven't really quite nailed down a design for it. We're at a point now where I think we have a general direction that can be fleshed out and developed. But it's taken that much time just to get to that kind of point where it's like, all right, and it's, we're going. I mean, it's left field. I mean, it's pretty wild and what he's trying to achieve. So it's taken that time, same way with Ryan and that three legged stand that took ages to figure out. How does this exist as a piece of furniture that doesn't look stupid? It's, you know, it's like it can't look contrived, you know, you can't just be like three legs. We're done. Okay. That's the, you know, that was the challenge. Here it is. But it has to work as a piece and look like it was meant to exist, you know, and not like you just like hammered it into being because this is like what you wanted, you know, so. Yeah. [01:05:04] Speaker B: Okay, gotcha. Well, great tip. Don't wait too long. I'm curious how, how else can someone be a good patron for you? Like, like what, what, you know, what tips do you have for someone that wants to order a stand from you? [01:05:20] Speaker A: I mean, Usually, and I will say the bonsai community are the best patrons. I'm always happier. I mean, the furniture clients are great and I love making furniture for people, but I think the. I don't. What's the word? Just the feeling there is very different. I think the bonsai community tends to be more understanding, more collaborative, more interested, more engaged, which makes for a better piece in the end because it is by and large a collaboration. I'm working to complement the tree and so I am working with the other artists in terms of we're producing something together in a way. They've developed a tree and, and you know, they need something to support and complement that tree. But, you know, there's a vision there. So I think, you know, as far as being a good patron, certainly leave adequate time, you know, and, and that kind of goes into being realistic in expectations. Yeah, you know, don't, don't. [01:06:29] Speaker B: How many. How long do you, do you. Do you want. [01:06:34] Speaker A: I mean, like I said, I mean, three months is, is kind of the comfortable minimum that seems short. [01:06:40] Speaker B: Three months seems like not enough time to me. [01:06:42] Speaker A: Oh yeah, the comfortable minimum. I guess that's my, my nice way of saying that. At least, you know, three months. You know, there was a few when they were calling about, you know, those last minute stands for the national and we're at like, I think it was barely eight weeks at that point. And I was basically telling them like, look, if we're going to do this, we need to have a design tomorrow. Basically, you know, we need a design a month ago. So like, we've got to very quickly settle on the esthetic that we're going for here, you know, and so that terms is kind of have an understanding of, of kind of what you're looking for. If you are looking for something, you know, if you just want me to create something for you, that's fine so too. But if you do kind of want to actualize a vision, just kind of understanding, you know, what your expectations are for that vision, and even if you want me to create something, you know, out of thin air on my own, just kind of have an understanding of what's acceptable for you and, and be honest with that. Like, if there are limitations to what you're willing to display a tree on, be clear about those with yourself and, and with me. And then sometimes we discover we don't like things in the process of seeing those things, you know, and I have no problem submitting a design proposal and having it rebuked, but then understanding why you don't like it too is always very helpful. Like if you can, you know, I don't like it isn't constructive in terms of developing the next one. You know, I don't like it because these elements aren't working for me. I mean, even if they're not, I don't understand exactly why they're not working for me. But just understanding what part of it, you know, being able to communicate that and, and be open about that is always very helpful because it just does help kind of get to that moment where we're figuring out like, okay, well this isn't working, so we can kind of do this. So those are always very helpful things, you know, and it. People come to me with very specific visions and, and that can be great and, and people come to me with no vision and that can be great as well. That Rosewood. [01:09:06] Speaker B: Stan, I did preference there. Oh, sorry. Keep going, keep going. [01:09:10] Speaker A: Well, I was just saying when Kurt for that Rosewoods thing came to me, he had a very specific division vision in terms of, you know, the aesthetics of it, I kind of developed on my own. But in terms of the sizing and everything, he was very specific on what he wanted and we scaled it. You know, he was doing scale mock ups with the tree and you know, very specific on what he was looking for. And I was able to, you know, actualize that vision, which is great. You know, it's always nerve wracking when, you know, people are expecting a very specific thing because there's a real target there that you have to deliver for. There's no room for slop in that. [01:09:50] Speaker B: So this is a pure rosewood, a hundred percent rosewood stand? [01:09:53] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a hundred percent. That's cool, that Arizona stuff. But I'm up for both. Honestly, I. I don't poo poo much. It's all kind of interesting. It's fun to develop my own thing and work completely for my own inspiration. But then sometimes it's fun to be given a prompt. You know, it's, you know, you think of a jazz artist, it's fun to play off of someone else's music. You know, that's an interesting way to go about working. But then it's also fun to be the leader and kind of set the pace. And I think the variety is kind of what keeps me going in this. It's not the same thing day after day. I'm not making production work, I'm not doing the same piece for different people. And maple and walnut, everything is kind of a new adventure. And that's the Fascinating. Part of it. That's part I really enjoy, I think. [01:10:55] Speaker B: Yeah, great. No, that's fantastic. So open to both, which is great. What a couple sidetracked questions about wood, because I. I love wood so much. I'm. I'm so interested in wood. I guess first I was curious, how is the. The Manzanita project going? I know that you collected some down in California. [01:11:25] Speaker A: Manzanita project is often running. Manzanita will be out of the kiln Friday and ready to work. So the Manzanita project has sailed and has landed successfully. Beautiful wood. Far more stable than I ever imagined it to be. [01:11:49] Speaker B: What does stable mean exactly? [01:11:52] Speaker A: Stable means that it looks a lot like it was cut when it's dry. You imagine you cut wood, it's full of moisture. And so as the process, as it drives, there's internal tensions in the wood that can cause it to warp. There's the shrinking as it dries that causes it to warp. So like your. Your typical forest tree that's growing 90 degrees from the ground, straight and vertical, no branches, is generally very desirable woodworking wood because it's very stable. There's no internal tension there. Gravity is not pulling it one way or the other. You know, if you imagine, you know, holding out an arm, holding up a heavy weight, you're having to exert a force, and then if you pull that away, the arm's gonna kind of flip up, you know, as that force has to go somewhere, you know, now that it's not being restricted. The same thing happens in wood. There's those internal tensions, and then when you saw the board, those internal tensions get released in different ways and can cause boards to do all kinds of crazy things. Manzanita is not your ideal forestry. It is not a straight trunk. These were exceptional specimens that had a relatively straight trunk, but still low branching, less than ideal lumber wood. But that has not translated into any discernible warpage at this point. I cut them super thick, expecting, you know, just kind of like ocean waves of lumber. And I got the nice, flat lumber boards exactly what you want to see. High moisture content, which can often translate into a lot of warpage, cracking, all kinds of drying issues. The logs were incredibly heavy. Like, I. I had. I think it was four logs, insanely dense. I. I overloaded my pickup with four of the scrawniest logs you've ever seen in your life. It felt like I had, you know, this massive tree back there. But it's. You could see the bed through the boards. It wasn't even the solid load And I was on the bumpers. My suspension was completely collapsed. The wood when I, you know, we. We picked it up on the forklift and kind of dumped it on the ground at the mill. And you could feel the earth shaking as they hit. I mean, they were just like just dense, solid things. Yeah, just pretty much, you know, high saturation of water. So it's kind of. Madrone is one of those species on the west coast. It's very similar to manzanita in aesthetic and very high in its water content and is a very unstable wood, very difficult to dry, high prone morphage. And I was kind of approaching the manzanita with that as my baseline just because there is no, there's no literature out there about manzanita as a lumber. It doesn't. [01:15:01] Speaker B: I haven't even. I haven't seen anyone else use manzanita except for turning bowls. Like they have seen the burls for turning bulls, but not, not as the burl is furniture. [01:15:13] Speaker A: The burl's an entirely different beast. As far as even the manzanita tree goes. I mean, that's the root stock that you're using at that point. I mean, nothing above ground I've never seen used. There's one site I found that they had small samples cut and they had done some like Janka hardness tests on it or whatever, but very limited information. So we're kind of just flying blind on it and just playing it safe and hoping for the best. And, you know, knock on wood. It's still got till Friday. It could go sideways, but it's looking like we got the best scenario out of it, which is amazing. [01:15:49] Speaker B: So great. Now what do you think? What do you think about the color? I kind of have mixed feelings about it. If I'm being really straightforward with you. Part of me, absolutely. [01:16:02] Speaker A: I want to. What, what are your mixed feelings then? I want to turn this around on you. [01:16:08] Speaker B: Well, first off, I've actually. I don't know if I've seen manzanita used as furniture or. Or lumber. So I don't really know what the coloring looks like of the wood. However, I assume it's. It's fairly red. [01:16:20] Speaker A: It's very red. [01:16:21] Speaker B: Very red. [01:16:22] Speaker A: It's. Yeah. I mean, it's cut your arm open red. It's that. It's the same as the burl stock, same as the, the jitas and all. It's that like blood red. [01:16:32] Speaker B: Yeah. So, yeah. I don't know. Part of me absolutely loves that and I love manzanita in general. Like in my bonsai garden. I planted manzanita just because I've grown up around them. They're native to California and much of the west coast, and they're just beautiful plants, but their. Their wood, their bark is beautiful. I wish they worked well for bonsai. I don't think that people have really been successful yet there. [01:16:57] Speaker A: I have not heard any success there. [01:17:01] Speaker B: But in terms of the wood. Yeah, just very, very red. Like, I. I wonder if it will be overpowering for a bonsai stand. Like, maybe I could see it working really well for shohin, because maybe you get away with a little more. Go ahead. [01:17:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I just. I think it's the same as going back to the figure. I think it's. It. It's. It needs to be applied appropriately in the display. And the thing that excites me so much about it is, you know, working with wood, you're kind of given a palette. You know, I don't get to go buy my paints and mix up any color I want. I'm using the palette that nature creates, and there's a little bit of a hole in that palette when it comes to the red spectrum. Same with the blues. You don't get a lot of blues in wood, and I'm always on the hunt for blue wood. But that deep red is singular in the wood world. I mean, I can go, you know, to the tropics and get red heart or something, and I can achieve that red, But I much prefer to pull from native stock. [01:18:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:18:13] Speaker A: You know, similar in the bonsai world, it's always better to work from what we have here. I think both, you know, using native is a more environmental way to go about it. But then I think there's also more of a connection to the material that way. The same way you're saying manzanita is this iconic west coast species, and there's a connection with the tree that I have. I have no connection with, like, red heart or something out of the tropics. [01:18:37] Speaker B: Totally, totally. [01:18:39] Speaker A: So, you know, being able to achieve that color naturally, I think is a very exciting opportunity, and I believe that it will find its display. And to be able to have that card to play when the time comes, I think is incredibly exciting. And I think it. I think it is powerful, and I think it is going to have to be considered for that. But it's also a very, like, there's no pore structure to it. It's a very smooth wood, which I think would work really well in bonsai. Again, probably the shohin spectrum would really appreciate that, because it is not disruptive. It's unified in its color. You're not getting, you know, poor structure. There's mild figure in it, but not a ton. So while it is kind of a saturated, loud color, it's. It's kind of a consistent in that, which I think would allow it to be more functional in kind of a display situation. You're not. If it was, like, highly figured and highly irregular and that red, that would be, you know, the kind of slap in the face that would require, you know, just the beast of a tree or something to be able to balance. But I think the fact that it is muted in its character, I guess, although not in its color. I think there is a balance there and very strong and durable. I think it can be taken down to very fine dimensions and still be very practical, like a walnut or something. You can only get so thin before it becomes too brittle to. To really use practically. [01:20:27] Speaker B: Yes. [01:20:27] Speaker A: Whereas this, I think you can push it to the limits that you could only push your hard, dense tropical woods. [01:20:34] Speaker B: That's a cool characteristic which, you know. [01:20:36] Speaker A: In the bonsai realm is. Is very important. And then, you know, as a secondary accent wood, too, it. It has, you know, added potential. It doesn't have to be the soul piece that we construct with. It could be just a fine accent line to something to kind of give a pop, to evoke the red vein of a juniper or something or, you know, or even like a flowering plant or something that kind of give that sense, I don't know, even, you know, limitless there as far as the options. I mean, you think of, you know, autumn coloring or, God knows, I mean, red blooms, you can really pull that into the display. So, yeah, I'm excited about the potential with that. [01:21:23] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I. You have no idea how excited I am to see it. And I want to see it in person. Like, I want to come. Come. [01:21:32] Speaker A: I brought a piece to the National. I was showing off one of the smaller chunks that wasn't worth putting in the kiln. I mean, they're functionally dry at this point. The kiln kind of finishes off, and it kind of. It can't. It kind of caps that moisture off. You don't necessarily have to kiln dry wood to use it, but it is nice. It does kind of mitigate the water fluctuation down the road a little bit when you kiln dry. And it also kills the bugs, which, when you're pulling from the forest, can be nice. There's no sign of bugs in the wood, but you don't Want to find them later. So the kiln dry process just kind of makes sure it's all nice and clean. [01:22:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I think Manzanita, for me, I was just thinking it's kind of like, it's like a. If we were scouting college football teams, it's like the best college football player that's extremely highly ranked. That just destroys everybody in college football. But I haven't quite seen it yet. Incredibly excited. Like I, I'm most hyped about the potential for it. I just haven't seen it, so I want to see it. And I also have a little bit of FOMO going on right now and I'm worried that everyone else is going to buy up your Manzanita stash. It's going to be gone very, very soon. This is absolutely going to happen and then it's going to be no other opportunities to ever get it. So there's some of that, unfortunately that. [01:23:01] Speaker A: It is a very limited stock at the moment. Maybe potential for more hopefully down the road, but certainly Manzanita. I did get 16 inch wide boards of the stuff, which is awesome. But and two for me, I have this kind of ongoing bucket list of species that you're not going to buy at a lumberyard that I know are out there and interesting, but I'm going to have to find it to use it. [01:23:36] Speaker B: And Manzanillo, couple more. [01:23:40] Speaker A: Red Bud is high up on that list. And unfortunately Red Bud is not going to come from the West Coast. I've got redbud out here. I've cut and milled redbud out here. I've got dry redbud from out here. But Red Bud doesn't get too substantial on the West Coast. 10 inches and that's about the best you can hope for. But in the Chicago Midwest area, I have seen the most awe inspiring redbud trees that are just these massive burled trunks that are just, you know, 16 inches diameter, gnarly burled, just beautiful things. And if I could ever land myself one of those, I would be a very excited and happy person. So that's, that's definitely up on the list. Sumac is actually a really beautiful wood, but takes a very special specimen to get one big enough to do anything with. Bolt earners will do them sometimes, but if I could ever get a hold of a millable sumac, I would be pretty happy with that one. [01:24:56] Speaker B: The common, common name for sumac is that poison oak or Miles. [01:25:01] Speaker A: No, I don't. [01:25:02] Speaker B: Okay, I'm totally off. I don't. No, I'm not. [01:25:06] Speaker A: Yeah, there is a poison sumac I believe though. But either I don't know what I'm talking about or the names get thrown around a lot. But like the, the Pacific bonsai has that sumac there that's kind of almost the bungee deciduous basically it looks like something out of Dr. Seuss, but that's a lot of them. How they come, they're, they're pretty scrawny little things with kind of, you know, multi leave little fronds up top. But they do get large and they do exist. Just haven't come across one yet. [01:25:47] Speaker B: I. I just threw it into chat GPT. It sounds like there's different varieties. Yeah, it says some are even edible but then some are do cause rashes like poison ivy. So some, some maybe not. [01:26:03] Speaker A: You can't get yourself in trouble. Yeah, summer's definitely. There is a definitely some poison sumac that I've heard of. But manzanita, you know, specifically being on the west coast and traveling down into California you always hear these old wives tales of these massive manzanitas. And up in Oregon we don't get that they're these spindly little garden things and most everywhere they are. But then you hear people saying oh, I have a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend who has some land and there's manzanita on that land that are big as round as your thigh. And so you just hear hear these rumors. It's kind of like the white whale out there and like you know, people talking about these sea monsters that exist in these dark spaces that nobody's explored. But then, you know, when it comes down to it, you try and verify this and find one, it just ends up being smoke. And that was what really excited me about when Eric sent me, you know, he came up at the pbe, he was like I got some property with some large manzanita on it. You know, I'm clearing them out. You know, would you be interested in milling these? And I kind of initially went into it with that skepticism of hearing this a million times. And I'm being like well, large means different things to different people. You know, large in terms of manzanita isn't necessarily large in terms of a woodworking feasibility. And I was like well send me some pictures and we'll talk. And I fully expected to get some little 6 inch thing that's like oh that's cute but it's not going to make it as lumber. And he sends me this image of somebody standing next to one of these manzanita trees. I mean, it's not a bush. And it was just like jaw dropping. And then at the same time, it was like the confirmation of these wild rumors that I've been hearing for years. And it was just like all those pieces fell into place and then it was something that I could access too. You know, it's just. It all came home. So it was a very exciting moment. You know, like, I've been dreaming about that burly red bud for years when me and my wife, we drove from Philly to Portland when we moved out here. And I have a cousin in the Midwest and we went through the Chicago area to visit him. And I remember, you know, driving down the freeway and looking out the window at these huge red buds on the side of the road, you know, thinking, wow, you know, I wish I. I lived here and wasn't just passing through in a Jetta and could actually get one of these things and. And play with it. But it's always just been kind of too far out of reach to. To really get. So, yeah, when that moment comes through, I mean, it's. It's really a fun, fun experience. [01:28:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Wow. So, so cool. I'm. I can't tell you how excited I am to see it in person. [01:28:53] Speaker A: Yeah, me as well. I'm designing a furniture piece at the moment that's going to use the manita as an accent, not as a predominant feature. So it'll be in woodwork here shortly, hopefully. [01:29:06] Speaker B: Very cool. Exciting. Awesome. Well, you know, I was hoping to pick your brain a little bit, changing gears here a smidge on matching trees with stands. I think that bonsai is all about scale and proportion. And, you know, if you have a bonsai container or pot that's way too big for the tree, just in my mind, you know, it can ruin your overall display if you have a stand that's too powerful or too small for your tree. It can really ruin everything in my mind. And matching it can be just so challenging. And I feel like a lot of times people hire you and they say, hey, make me this stand. And it's not like you're near the tree. They can send you measurements. But I guess I'm just curious if you have some general thoughts on matching up a stand with a tree. And like, how do you get that right? Any general tips and suggestions come to mind? [01:30:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, like, bonsai is an illusion. And you're right when you. When you get things out of scale, it. That illusion falls apart and then the whole composition falls apart with it. You Know, generally speaking, you know, your, your pines and stuff are going to be more accepting of massive pieces, you know, and kind of playing. If you have a, a thick trunk and a thick pot, you're going to want more weight, visual mass underneath, whereas your deciduous are generally more delicate and will appreciate a more delicate woodwork underneath. And it's all, I mean, there's so many different permutations. I've seen very massive deciduous, I've seen very delicate pines. So there's really not one hard and fast rule that can be applied to everything. I think it's important. You know, there's a general parameters of scaling a bonsai stand that you know that the, the inner framework, the quote unquote picture window, you want your, your pot to fit nicely inside of that, not breach those lines. You don't want pot overhanging that inner framework. If you're doing like a slab stand, that gets a little bit confused because there isn't that inner framework. But I do like to approach those kind of slab solid pieces with a similar mindset and just kind of almost project that inner framework into that open expanse and kind of scale it appropriately. Just kind of consider, you know, three inches in there's a frame and just kind of contain my pot within that. [01:31:53] Speaker B: So with, with, with the inner framework. So you're talking on the top of the table. Just to break this down a little more simply, top of the table, you have a rectangular or sometimes square shape and it's outlined in, either in, in some woodworking method. And then you want your container to fit within that interior rectangle. [01:32:18] Speaker A: Is that correct? So the thing is, the problem with wood is it moves. It's always expanding and contracting. And the wider the piece of wood, the more it moves. And so the only functional way really to make a wide tabletop to hold something up is to either make it out of a solid slab of wood or to frame a large piece of wood and allow that piece of wood to float inside that frame. If you look at most doors, it's frame and panel construction. It's kind of the cornerstone of wood engineering. And the bonsai stand traditionally is, is similar frame and panel construction on top, where you have, you know, a thin 1 to 3 inch frame that encases a large piece of wood that forms the majority of the top of the stand. And then a traditional stand and display, they've kind of utilized that nature of wood to kind of play with the display and, and basically make that a picture frame that kind of frames the tree and the stand, which Is kind of interesting how the, you know, technical nature of wood is influencing the nature of bonsai display. So it's almost the tree is influencing its own display, but it does make an aesthetic. It. It makes a, like an aesthetic beautiful object. It works very well in that sense. It does frame the tree and it does present it in a very nice way. So it works. It's a very practical application of that and that frame. Go ahead. [01:34:00] Speaker B: So, sorry. [01:34:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:34:03] Speaker B: Within the frame, how much distance from the edge of the frame would you like your pot, ideally, like, should it take up the entire frame or should it be, you know, should you have an inch on each side or how do you determine that? [01:34:18] Speaker A: That kind of varies depending on species. Conifers. And a lot of that's influenced by the crown. You basically the. The perimeter of your stand you want inside the crown of your tree. You don't want your stand overhanging the crown of the tree. And again, if the tree is, you know, leaning and has, you know, momentum predominantly one way instead of a balanced crown, that can, you know, you have to fudge that a little bit. But by and large, you know, if we're going to think of our simple, you know, bonsai tree with a trunk and branches coming out on either side, you want your sand to fall inside of the perimeter of those branches. And so, you know, you imagine your average deciduous tree is going to have a much wider crown than your average conifer, which is going to have a much tighter crown, being, you know, inspired by alpine environments that tend to produce, you know, sagging branches tighter to the trunk, that kind of growth nature versus your meadow deciduous that can spread out and sprawl. So your deciduous trees are going to tend to have more space both between the pot and the perimeter of that inner framework, and then also in the frame that encases it. So, you know, on a deciduous, you know, having a three, four inch rail framing, the. The center frame is not unheard of and is usually you're going to want more space there, whereas in a conifer, you're going to need to bring all those elements in a lot tighter. And sometimes that inner framework will actually be under the lip of the pot. You know, a lot of the pots kind of come in towards the bottom. And so that bottom part, you'll be outside that bottom cut in, but inside the upper lip of the pot to get that all in tight enough. And then again in cascades and semi cascades, you're going to need to get that stand in tighter. So it's not encumbered and not, you know, one, it doesn't conflict with the natural alliance of the tree as it cascades over the pot and two, it doesn't interfere. You're not hitting the pot with the tree as well. So yeah, that tightness, there's, there's some play there and it's a visual thing in the end where you kind of A roomier tree is going to need a roomier stand. A tighter tree is going to need a tighter one. So there's no ratio that can really be applied. That works in all instances. [01:36:54] Speaker B: Makes sense. [01:36:54] Speaker A: But generally, you know, you're deciduous, you're going to want to spread out your conifer, you're going to want to bring it in. So yeah. And then you can, there's fudge room with that. I mean not everybody has a stand for every tree. And if you look even in Japanese shows, you know, sometimes they're utilizing stands that may not be 100% perfectly sized where you know, they, you know, a lot of times on the front back dimension, they'll push a pot back over the back rail of that frame so that the front rail, when you look at it from the front viewing angle, it's inside that framework but it hangs over the backside and they will even do that at the kokofu. I mean it's not unheard of and some very high end shows, it is a pretty accepted technique but it kind of gives you a little more room where you can use, you know, if you have limited options, you can make an option that may not be perfect work acceptably for a display. You know, the good news is, is bonsai is a 2D art form by and large. Even though it's, we're doing it with three dimensional object, we're conceiving of a front, we're looking at an image and so to push that back, it's, you're still playing with that image correctly, if that makes sense. [01:38:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:38:17] Speaker A: So absolutely. [01:38:19] Speaker B: I, I'm curious, what do you think about stand heights in the US versus in Japan and do you think that it has anything to do with the height of the average person? And the reason? Well, I don't know. I, I, I tend to like my trees a than I think maybe I, I commonly see in Japan and I wonder if it's maybe because I'm a little bit taller. Is there anything there or what are your thoughts? [01:38:47] Speaker A: That's where I, I think I fall on it. You know, I, I do think, I mean being 6 2, I like taller stands. I mean the idea of the Stand is, you know, your display tables. When you go to the show, the tables, all the trees are put on a table at the same height, but all these trees are different heights. And so the stand, in its essence, is to get that tree to the ideal viewing height so that you can, you know, comfortably appreciate the most important part of that tree, you know, generally kind of that main trunk section, you know, and generally speaking, you know, a slight stoop is right where you want to be. So, you know, a slight bend over, you're looking right into the meat of that. That composition. Excuse me. So, obviously, different heights of individuals are going to dictate different preferences for where that needs to be. Unlike the, you know, display tables, we're not all the same height. So I would think that a taller individual would appreciate a taller stand and a shorter, vice versa. And, you know, I don't know if not to. Yeah. I don't know if everybody in. In Japan tends to be five, six, and under or on the shorter side. I don't want to put any kind of cultural stereotypes there, but I do think traditionally, you know, in the Japanese aesthetic, they. They want them a little lower, a little tighter to the table, where I think here we're a little more comfortable with kind of spreading our legs and kind of getting them up a little more. So I think there is that kind of tension on stand height, where people kind of hold back a little bit in terms of lifting the stands up. And I'm always a big devil's advocate for getting them up a little higher. And part of that is a. A selfishness of just trying to suit my own height. [01:40:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:40:57] Speaker A: Parameters on that. [01:40:59] Speaker B: Totally. [01:41:00] Speaker A: But that's kind of where. I mean, there's no. It's hard to put exact rules on this because it is an aesthetic art form, and many things influence that. [01:41:10] Speaker B: Yes. [01:41:11] Speaker A: So. And there is no wrong or right. [01:41:15] Speaker B: I guess the risk of being too high of a stand is one, the tree would go too high on the backdrop, so it would. The. The apex would go over the backdrop so that you have one risk there, I guess. Would another one be. Do you feel like the stand gets unstable looking the taller that it gets, or like there's probably a balance there. Right. [01:41:39] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, that's put perfectly. So. Yeah, I mean, that's something to take into consideration. Like. And that's why I asked for the overall height of the tree, too, when we're trying to size a stand, because if it is an exceptionally tall tree, that needs to be taken into account. I mean, it may be the most interesting parts lower in that. But if you have a 52 inch tall tree, that really needs to be a consideration in determining a, a stand and, and display. And a lot of those really tall ones are just put on a slab just because you just, you can't get the height without pushing it outside the realm of, of the backdrop. And then different shows that can be more disjoining than others. You know, a lot of shows sometimes will put that kind of front, like you have the backdrop, but they'll have that kind of front drape, you know, almost like the tokonoma kind of front element there. And in that case, you go above that. That is just game over. That's horrible. Yeah, there's no saving that. But it was just a backdrop. Yes, it's not ideal to go above it, but at least it's not catastrophic in that sense of the word. But actually, one of the trees that took the top price at the national when they showed up, their stand that they had brought was a little too tall and ended up getting a slab for me just to bring that tree down so it wasn't sticking out above the backdrop height. [01:43:08] Speaker B: Was that the best in show award? [01:43:10] Speaker A: Was it a big pine? Yeah, that huge black pine. Beautiful tree. [01:43:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shout out to. Nice work. [01:43:18] Speaker A: Yeah. But that was. They got there and, you know, you have all your great plans, but then when you show up and it's just like, oh, that backdrop is not where I expected it to be. Totally. And so it was kind of a pivot and it worked out beautifully. But at the same time, yeah, that's definitely something to take into consideration with those things. And then like at the pbe, sometimes they have the extra large tree table that's a little bit lower than the other standard tables. And I know Todd at the last PvE when he was configuring his stand display, he was crunching his numbers based off the 30 inch regular tables, but then got put on the big tree table at 24. And it was a. I told him, I was like, man, you were six inches away from winning the show. But it really put it down and it really sucked a lot. I mean, it was a beautiful tree, but there was some interesting elements that the energy of that really sucked out of them because they weren't quite where you could appreciate them. You had to really get down to see them. At one point I got down on my knees and was looking at that tree and it was just like, man, this thing's amazing. But I didn't get that same yeah, Yeah. I didn't get that same impression when I was kind of up higher above it. So, yeah, that height issue. And so. And the thing is, is to kind of, you know, when you're getting into these shows is to understand, like. And a lot of times there's miscommunication, and it's hard to nail down all these facts. But as much clarity as you can get on what the display table height's going to be, you know, standard is 30. But then if there are exceptions to understand, you know, so you can be prepared, and then having options never hurts. The All American Award. Isaiah's tree at the National. I didn't make that stand for that tree. I had made another stand for that tree for that show. But when he got to the show, I guess the accent that he had put together, he thought it was too tall to use with the stand that I had made, and he wanted the Dan to go a little taller to compete with the accent. So he used another stand they had made at a different time for that tree and had used the stand that I made for that tree for another tree. None of these were conceived for him. But honestly, like that stand in that tree, I don't think I could have designed it better. They were a perfect pairing for each other. It was an amazing composition. It worked beautifully. And then he put the other one under bolt, and that worked very well as well. So. Yeah, but just having that ability to kind of pivot and. And try some different things really produced some. Some results that I didn't even expect. So that was really interesting to see how that all played out. [01:46:09] Speaker B: Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And like you pointed out, or with Isaiah, his thought process, I guess you want to make sure that all the elements are different heights within the display. I think that's really important. And you don't want them too closely aligned. [01:46:26] Speaker A: It's having variety. It's having that dynamic interest, and when things kind of all match up, it tends to. You produce these sight lines, and it tends to just kind of cut up a composition instead of letting you, like, flow and explore through it. But, yeah, I guess that was where the issue came up, is that that accent and the stand were just not talking to each other in the right way. And so kind of pivoted and worked out. Beautiful. [01:46:55] Speaker B: Gotcha. Yeah. [01:46:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:46:59] Speaker B: You know, I was curious in terms of the colors of wood for bonsai stands. I typically feel like. I see in Japan, we use. They. They go for a lot of darker tones, generally speaking. Is that something would you agree with that statement. And do you feel like darker. Darker tones work better for bonsai stands in general? [01:47:25] Speaker A: In general, yes. The stand is kind of the earth, the grounding force of the tree. And visually, darker tones have more visual weight and more grounding force. You know, a lot of the Japanese display, a lot of Japanese bonsai is very grounded, very centered. There's a lot of kind of visual weight in America. Or Yamadori. A lot of it. There's a lot. A little more dynamism. I find, by and large, there's exceptions to both of those. You know, Kimura does very dynamic trees. I think he's very unjapanese in that sense, but, yeah, so we have a lot more dynamic, you know, material here to play with, which I think gives us a little more freedom and. And creating. I like creating stands that kind of have a little bit of lift to them, you know, as well. But the darker ones does tend to be. It's kind of the period at the end of that sentence. But I think there's some flexibility in tone as far as that goes. You know, like, you know, the walnut is. Is, you know, not black. It's not the darkest of darks, but it's a great wood. For bonsai in Japan, they also have a lot more access to darker tropical species, rosewoods and such, that we really don't have the same kind of access to here. But I think there is, again, that cultural connection where, you know, utilizing what is in our natural environment to kind of speak about and create our, you know, esthetics of our natural environment and then, you know, different trees, you know, flowering and junipers, I think, can take a lighter wood than like a black pine could. You know, I've used mahogany often with junipers, and mahogany's, you know, it's a deep red, but it's not the darkest of woods, but can work quite well with those lighter trees. And oftentimes that kind of red could really make the foliage more vibrant. You know, if you get some of those Sierras with that deep, you know, that nice green, or even the bluish green like that red really contrasts with that and accentuates that element of the tree. So I think a lot of times the color of the stand is kind of a. You know, you're considering the whole aspect. That. That stand I did for Andrew Robson's. Was it the winter hazel with the yellow flowers? It was out of mahogany, and those yellow flowers against that mahogany. The two colors together, it's just. It's electric. It's beautiful together, you Know, whereas if it was black, it would be a very different composition and the flowers would be a very different impact, you know, almost color. I mean, a lot of times color is developed by contrast. You know, we see colors and when you pair colors together, it changes the colors without actually changing the colors. You know, if you were to draw black and yellow next to each other, brown and yellow, saying yellow. But you're going to see that yellow differently, you know, compared to what colors it's paired with. And I think that plays in with the bonsai as well. Absolutely. Certainly a consideration. And then I've always kind of had this little bit of a wild hair that I've wanted to kind of create an alpine snow composition. I've got a, A very essentially large holly tree that I milled a few years back. And holly is like the ivory of woods. It looks like elephant ivory. Very dense, but bone white. [01:51:12] Speaker B: Okay. [01:51:13] Speaker A: And I always thought it would be very interesting to just have a white stand and kind of evoked this kind of alpine snow covered, you know, never sees the earth kind of environment. Totally untraditional and totally unacceptable in many spheres. But I think given the right instance, the right tree, the right composition could be something very interesting and could be something very beautiful to play with. [01:51:42] Speaker B: That's fun. [01:51:43] Speaker A: So, you know, those are the fun little moments where, you know, it is really fun to just kind of go off the beaten path and try something new. And potentially you fail miserably. But then the other side of that gamble is you really achieve something significant that's beautiful. So. And that's definitely exhilaration of that. So if there's anybody out there that wants a snow covered stand, call me up. I got the material. [01:52:16] Speaker B: Love it. [01:52:17] Speaker A: We'll. We'll lose the show together. [01:52:23] Speaker B: Could you narrow it down within the woods that you commonly work with? Could you narrow it down to a top three, or is that just way too hard of a question? [01:52:32] Speaker A: I mean, there's a top three that get used, you know, that are just kind of the, the consistent winners in terms of their adaptability for bonsai and suitability for bonsai. I mean, walnut is kind of our number one domestically that we're going to find. [01:52:52] Speaker B: I love walnut. I. Yeah, I don't know. [01:52:54] Speaker A: I do too. [01:52:55] Speaker B: It's just a great, great wood. [01:52:57] Speaker A: It's hard not to love. And being on the west coast with access to the stuff that's growing in California is even easier to love because there's some of the walnut I've gotten out of California is just some of the Most inspiring stuff that I've ever seen in my life. It's beautiful. It's amazing. The color variation, the nuance in it. I mean, it is. It's killer. I got nothing against walnut. I think my thing is, is just I. I like to experiment. I like to play with new things, and so I'm always interested in that opportunity to explore outside of that realm. But it's nothing against walnut, and it's nothing against, you know, it being unsuitable. It's. It's. It's kind of the perfect one. [01:53:44] Speaker B: And really quick with the. With walnuts, when you actually go and harvest the wood, those are coming from Production Nurse or Production Fruiting Tree or Nut Tree Productions, where they have a grafted black walnut base and then a white English walnut top. Is that. Is that where you get them from? And you're using the. The base typically, Although I've seen you use both. Like the. With the graft. [01:54:12] Speaker A: Yeah, the graph line's fun to play in. And then there's another wrinkle in that. Whereas a lot of times it's black walnut rootstock that they've grafted the English walnut trunk to. And English walnut's not white, per se. It's more of a milk chocolate color. And at its best, it has black veins that run in that milk chocolate. It has a whiter SAP than the black walnuts, and that is white. So you're getting less heartwood per foot, you know, of material, and more lightwood, you know, in that. But they've also do high grafts. These are something I've just recently kind of tuned into, where they're grafting the English walnut four feet, five feet up the trunk of black walnut. And so you're getting that crazy graining that you're getting in the rootstock along the whole trunk of the wood. And those are just spectacular. I. Your stand was made from one of those high graphs. And I've made. I've got several other high graph trunks that are just, like, incredible. I mean, that is the most beautiful walnut I've ever seen is those high grass. They're the little gem in the world. But, yeah, by and large, out here we're getting grafted orchard stock. And again, I mean, I like to be able to be environmentally friendly in a productive way where I'm not compromising. And that kind of shakes both hands, you know, like the grafted orchard trees that are being decommissioned and ripped out of the ground and burned. To be able to mill that and use the lumber is obviously a great thing. And the Fact that the lumber is superior to anything out there and I'm not compromising on quality by doing that is, it's, there's, it's a win win there and it's kind of this perfect situation. So yeah, those are, those are great to use. And then the California soil does the rest and it just kills it every time. And then mahogany is also, I mean, kind of a domestic, not really. You get mahogany in Florida and stuff that'll grow, but by and large that's being imported. I have found one slight workaround. I mean, mahogany is kind of like the rosewoods where it's been over harvested long before, you know, modern man got a chance to mechanize it. I mean it was the wood of Choice in the 1700s. So it has been, you know, heavily exploited. Cuban mahogany was like the OG first love. That's, that was gone before. I think Abraham Lincoln had a chance to, to do anything. Honduran mahogany was kind of the follow up preference that's heavily restricted at this point. That's very tapped out. You can still get it, but it's, you're paying a premium and it's very limited quantity in stock. And then there's all the mahogany mahoganish I call them, like the African mahogany, which has no relation to mahogany whatsoever. Philippine mahogany, same thing. It's not mahogany. It just kind of looks like mahogany and so they're selling it as mahogany. Sapele is another one, not mahogany, but kind of has a similar grain and coloring and so they kind of group it into that. But it has no affiliation with mahogany. But I have found their plantation growing Honduran mahogany genetics in Fiji for outdoor wood. And it doesn't, you know, the soil is a little bit different so you don't get quite the same look as the Honduran mahogany grown in Honduras. But you're getting the same genetics. And so you're getting. The tree will react to certain things in the same way. So there are certain old chemical dyeing techniques that you can use that react with the tannin and the composition of the wood. They have a fuming technique where you expose it to ammonia fumes and the ammonia fumes react and darken the wood. But the Honduran mahogany will react with the ammonia in that way. So you can use that Fijian stock and expose it to the ammonia and get the same rich antique red mahogany that you want out of that Honduran stock, but at a much more affordable price without tapping into that forest stock that's dwindling and hard to get anyway. So it's kind of an interesting workaround there. And then they don't grade the Fijian for figure. So you. I've gotten highly figured mahogany Honduran grown in Fiji, that can then be applied to bonsai stands and make beautiful stands that you can't tell or not from, you know, the Honduran stock, just because you're getting those same genetics. So that's a great one to have access to. And then the rosewoods are always great. Yeah, I've done a number out of Indian, East Indian rosewood. You're getting that deep, purplish black. A lot of what you like, what you see at a cocofu or your more antique Japanese stands. Pretty pricey, though. All the rosewoods are but a beautiful wood, a dream to work it. You know, it's very hard, but because it's very hard, it holds detail really well. So any carving and shaping that you do to it, you're going to get nice crisp edges, really defined lines. So it's. It's really great for kind of more ornate stands and pieces like that. So that's a wonderful one to work with. But domestically, we're a little limited in the dark woods, which is why I explore so much to kind of increase that palette. I mean, why I'm excited about the manzanita, why I'm looking for the red bud. I mean, red bud's like a purplish walnut color. So that's where my interest in these kind of alternative sources is fueled. It's kind of, how can I get dark without repeating the same thing over and over again? And then I've explored the chemical dyeing techniques, because you can darken a wood in a natural way, like the oxidizing, where you have the iron and the vinegar, it's reacting with the wood and not coloring the wood. So you're getting tonal variation in the wood that feels very natural, whereas, you know, a pigmented dye. You're just painting the wood, and it's all monotone. You're not getting that fluctuation that you get in a natural stock. So I'm able to take maple and make it a deep, dark gunmetal gray. That works beautifully for bonsai, but it's a plentiful domestic species, you know, that has all kinds of figure and options in terms of size and, you know, shape. I mean, maple trees take on all kinds of crazy contours. So it opens itself up for some very interesting live edge work and interesting slab work on a scale that, you know, suits even the Largest bonsais. But then it's very affordable, very plentiful, and again, something that is naturally growing here in America, you know, that we have a connection to every day, especially on the west coast, with the big leaf maple, where we get those just massive, massive maples. [02:01:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Have you utilized that process with other woods outside of maple? I've seen the maple. I absolutely love it. I think it looks fantastic in that gunmetal gray. Yeah, yeah. [02:02:05] Speaker A: It works with walnut. It'll go jet black with walnut. [02:02:09] Speaker B: Okay. [02:02:09] Speaker A: So you can almost evoke that kind of rosewood dark in a walnut, which is nice. It'll do the same thing with white oak, incidentally, not red oak. There are no tannins in red oak, which is why your wine doesn't come in red oak barrels. It comes in white oak barrels because it's the tannins that are flavoring the wine. And incidentally, white oak, you can expose to the ammonia, like the mahogany, and it'll go walnut brown. It'll just take on this deep chocolate brown. That's very beautiful. Pretty much tonally, exactly the same as walnut. But it has that kind of coarse character of the oak, which is nice to kind of introduce a different texture, which works well for more coarse. Kind of a. A rough pine or something that kind of is a little more rough in texture in terms of its bark and its nature. You know, wouldn't work with a beach very well, but with something a little wilder and rougher. It's a nice pairing. I think so. Yeah, a lot. I mean, you can even do it with, like, cherries will take on a bit of a darker black coloring. It's really just a tannin thing, and so different woods have those different contents. I've actually gotten some really nice color out of cottonwood, which is a crap tree. You know, it's. It's nothing I've ever been impressed with, but I. I oxidize some, and you almost get, like, this teak color out of it. It's like this greenish brown that's really captivating and really beautiful. So that's. That's an interesting kind of one that I haven't played with much in stands. I've done a number of jitas in it, and they always are just kind of like, I. They just. People just jump on. People are really drawn to that color, so there's certainly potential there. Unfortunately, it's a little softer, so you're not going to get the kind of refined detail out of that wood that you could out of, like, a rosewood, but with the Right. Design. It could be a very good wood to use. [02:04:25] Speaker B: Fantastic. Awesome. Well, hey, Austin, I. I've really appreciated your time, and this has been such a awesome conversation, I guess. Is it cool if we do Kind of. One more question for you. Awesome. So I. I am curious about any long or short term goals that, that you have and maybe like, what, what you envision things looking like within your practice within the next, like, five to 15 years or so. [02:04:58] Speaker A: I think the thing I'm most interested in right now is bringing display to the tree. I feel like traditionally we've always brought the tree to display. It's where the tree has been taken indoors and displayed in that environment, which is not really conducive to the tree's health. Overall, it's a short snap, you know, window of the art that you can appreciate, you know, and I first started experimenting that with. At the lab at the Pacific Bonsai. But being able to bring display outdoors where it can be art 365 days of the year and the tree can be displayed as art in the same manner, I think it's a really interesting dynamic. I think there's a lot of potential there. It's not something I don't think that's been heavily explored. And so that kind of makes it exciting because everything's kind of new at this point and everything's a discovery. I've gotten to do a few stands since for outdoor display, and everyone has been a learning experience, but then has also been really interesting to develop a lot of material exploration. You know, wood is not at its natural best outdoors, but there are woods that can function well. And I think it's just a matter of working with the material and understanding the material. And I think some really interesting things can be developed out of that. So that's certainly something that I hope to be doing more of going forwards. And yeah, that would be probably the most exciting thing that I hope to develop. [02:06:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, that's. That's a very cool idea. Very cool concept. I've enjoyed looking at your outdoor display stands, and I'm really excited to see what they continue to evolve to become. So I like it. I think that could be really cool. I'm kind of figuring that out myself. I'm kind of going very basic more so just using redwood to create outdoor display stands that are. Are very, very basic but functional and look okay, but not nothing like you would make. That would make them look really, really awesome. But I think that's definitely an area that should be explored more. And I'm excited That we have the right person on the job. [02:07:30] Speaker A: Yeah, there's a lot of. A lot of woods can play. And then also, you know, using the concrete and stone, metal, there's a lot of interesting avenues and then combinations of those materials. And don't poopoo. The redwood, I think there is some very interesting. It's a good outdoor wood, for one. And then, you know, there's interesting forms. I mean, it's something that comes in just massive, you know, quantities. I mean, the redwood just grows so big, and, you know, some of those rootstocks could be very interesting, you know, shaped. [02:08:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:08:04] Speaker A: Cut. I mean, there's infinite potential there. And I think that's the funnest thing is there's no limit to, you know, discovery at that point, you know, Most definitely, yeah. [02:08:16] Speaker B: No redwood. I've seen some really nice figured redwood before, which I think is absolutely beautiful. I think redwood for indoor bonsai displays can be really nice. And. Yeah, I just. Actually, I just went up and visited the giant sequoias, like, last week, and there were a few trees that had blown over, and the root systems that are left over are just extraordinary. They're just the most beautiful sculptural pieces. And I feel like that if you had a smaller version of that in your bonsai garden, you had a tree on top of that that could look awesome. [02:08:54] Speaker A: In terms of the sculptural object, redwood is almost impossible to beat. I mean, and also, its durability outdoors means that it can kind of create those sculptural objects. A lot of other trees, when they fall over, rot, decay, you don't get the solid element that can kind of create those flowing shapes, whereas the redwood just sticks around. And so you get those root gnarly pieces. They are awesome. And everybody should go see the sequoias sooner than later, because God only knows how long they're going to be with us. So. Those things are inspirational. I. I was lucky enough to see them a few years back, and. Yeah, that's something you don't forget soon. Yeah, it's hard to believe a tree can achieve that. [02:09:40] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. So, yeah, talk about feeling small. [02:09:44] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like swimming with a blue whale. [02:09:47] Speaker B: Seriously. Cool. Well, hey, Austin, I can't thank you enough for talking with me tonight. I had a fantastic time. I'm just, like, such a massive fan of your work. You're doing a incredible job, and we're very, very fortunate and lucky to have you in the community. And I'm really excited to see you continue to make stands. Like, I'm just so pumped to take a look at what you produce, and. And it's. It's been a fun journey so far, and I'm so excited to see it continue. So thank you so much, Austin. Really appreciate it. Absolutely.