#36 Peter Tea - Part 1

[00:00:00] Speaker A: To baby trees. Bonsai. Banzai. Banzai. Banzai. The black pondo podcast. The Black Pondo Podcast. [00:00:20] Speaker B: Well, cheers. [00:00:22] Speaker A: Yeah, cheers. Thanks, Ian, for coming. [00:00:25] Speaker B: Oh, thank you. [00:00:26] Speaker A: Thanks for having me. [00:00:28] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:00:28] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:00:29] Speaker B: Thanks for doing this with me. I really appreciate it. [00:00:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. [00:00:34] Speaker B: Always great hanging out with you and chatting with you and working on trees with you. I really, really appreciate you and appreciate everything that we've done the last couple days. [00:00:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it's fun. It's. People are going to be. We don't want to spoil it, but I think people are going to be really, really excited about what we're. What. What you're coming up with. What we're coming up with. Thank you. Your vision. I'm just hoping. [00:01:06] Speaker B: I'm excited. I'm really excited for the next PvE. It was cool. I was listening in on. So we won't do any spoilies here right now, but I'm excited to learn the details, more details about the PvE. And it sounds like Jonas has a lot of things figured out. Jonas, Eric and Andrew. [00:01:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, it sounds like they're going to announce something soon or put something on their website to. I know on the website they have the official dates and location, but not much more information. But I think they're going to update it pretty soon with a lot of new info. [00:01:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:42] Speaker A: So, yeah, I look forward to it. I think it's going to be great. Awesome. Just like the previous two and probably even better. [00:01:49] Speaker B: Nice. So tell me what we're sipping on. I don't know. [00:01:53] Speaker A: I don't. Yeah, put that bottle away. What we're drinking this time is cognac. Cognac is essentially an alcohol made out of grapes. And for it to be called cognac, it has to come out from cognac France. If it's not from France or from that area, then people call it brandy. [00:02:17] Speaker B: Okay. So. [00:02:19] Speaker A: So it's. It's a little nicer in the sense. Maybe not nicer, but it's different than, like, you know, single malt scotch or. Yeah, or scotch in general. It's. It's usually not as harsh. [00:02:30] Speaker B: It's. [00:02:30] Speaker A: It's got. I would say, probably has a little sweeter taste. Again, made from grapes. [00:02:34] Speaker B: Yeah, it's tasty. [00:02:36] Speaker A: So I like to change it. Change it up. Yeah, yeah. Very nice. Very nice. [00:02:41] Speaker B: Awesome. And so speaking of bonsai shows, you are heading to a big one pretty soon. [00:02:50] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Gonna be going to the hundredth anniversary of Kokofu that's coming up in February in Tokyo. Japan? Yeah. I think it's going to be great. It also sounds like a lot of people are going. One of my, like the Pat that came over today to pick up some soul, he said he's joining Bjorn's group for the tour and that he said there's 41 people in that group. And apparently in the past, this is what people have told me in the past, it was usually like 20, but I guess there's just so much demand. Someone did tell me he had like a wait list of like 300 people or something. Whoa. Like, everybody, like, this was the show to go to. And I think that's true. I think they're gonna. In typical Japanese fashion, they'll bring out kind of the big guns for a special event like this. Yeah. [00:03:41] Speaker B: It's a once in a lifetime kind of deal. Right. I mean, we're only gonna see 1, 100. [00:03:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:46] Speaker B: Right. [00:03:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. We won't quite be around for the 200th show. Yeah. Not even the 150 show, maybe. I don't know. How old would I be if I was on? I'd be 95. Maybe it was 50 years, maybe. Yeah, exactly. [00:04:06] Speaker B: Yeah. No, that's. That's so cool that you're going to the hundredth show, though. [00:04:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:12] Speaker B: Are you taking a tour or are you bringing a tour as well? [00:04:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm bringing a number of my clients that most of them actually have never gone to Japan. A few have before, but which is really fun for me, really, is taking clients that's never been to Japan, never seen, you know, Japanese bonsai in person. So it's always fun to see the reaction to the bonsai and then the reaction to Japanese culture and. And just the city there, especially Tokyo, it's a pretty impressive city. [00:04:49] Speaker B: How many people in your group? [00:04:52] Speaker A: I think It's. It's like 13 people. [00:04:56] Speaker B: Okay. [00:04:57] Speaker A: But a number of them are spouses, so. So I don't think we're going to hang again. It's. It's not so much as a tour. It's. It's more of. I just set up this trip where. Okay, I'm going to go there. I just set up an itinerary and if you want to join me, then great. If you want to do your own thing, then that's, you know, nobody's tied to anybody. Just to keep it easier and fun and. And so it's kind of not so much like work. Yeah. And everybody understands that that's going. And they like it that way. I like it that way, too, but yeah, yeah, we won't. Not everybody will be hanging out together the whole time. Some people, they have their side trip. Some people are showing up earlier, some people are staying later. But I think for the most part, for at least the key bonsai stuff, you know, visiting my teacher, Mr. Tanaka, or going to the first and the second show, even the Suiseki show that is happening, we're going to go to that, too. [00:05:52] Speaker B: I didn't know there was a Suiseki show. Is that at Kokufu or separate? [00:05:56] Speaker A: Yeah, it's in the same museum in a different room. But usually they have a pretty big Suiseki show. It might be the biggest Suiseki show, I think, at the same time. So it's kind of a twofer, which is nice, especially if you like Suiseki. Yeah. Yeah. One of the interesting things is at that time of year we're going to go to this, too, is the world's biggest orchid show is in Tokyo at the same time. So we're going to try to. It turns out I just got the dates, and it turns out it's like the first day that we're there and then they're done. That's the end of their show. Right. So we have to change the schedule around. But anybody that's not been to that show, they should see it. It's pretty impressive. Yeah. You know, a million orchids. It's crazy. It's in the Tokyo Dome. It's a baseball stadium. Right? [00:06:49] Speaker B: Like an entire baseball stadium. [00:06:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Like where the, you know, outfield would be in the diamond. It's all right there in the bottom and that, you know, nobody's sitting in the seats, but it's just all orchids. Like any orchids you'd ever want to see. It's. It's a pretty impressive show. It's. A lot of people do attend. It's. It's fun. [00:07:07] Speaker B: That's cool. I feel like a lot of bonsai people also are into orchids, and I see why. I mean, they're. They're cool, they're beautiful. [00:07:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:16] Speaker B: So interesting. So many different varieties. [00:07:20] Speaker A: Yeah. And they can be pretty technical, right? Yeah. I mean, not so much in the sense, you know, we're not. When most people don't fire orchids, though, I have some clients that will sometimes put wire on. Oh, right. Just for fun. Right. [00:07:33] Speaker B: Copper or aluminum? [00:07:35] Speaker A: You know, that's a good question. I think it's just whatever wire that I think, usually it's aluminum. You know, sometimes they'll prop up the. The flowers and things. [00:07:41] Speaker B: Like that. [00:07:43] Speaker A: But yeah, it's. It's. But it's tricky to grow right. It's. It has to have the right condition. So there's some challenges there. Just very similar to bonsai. Right. Just what's the ideal condition for this orchid versus a different orchid? And I mean that's a whole huge feel that I don't know that much about at all. So. [00:08:01] Speaker B: For sure. Yeah. Orchids can go deep, I'm sure. [00:08:04] Speaker A: Oh yeah. [00:08:05] Speaker B: Just like bonsai, you know. So you're gonna visit Aichan? [00:08:09] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I try to make a point to visit my teacher every time I go to Japan. Hopefully now, now that, you know, Covid's passed and things are a little bit more all back to normal, I want to get more into the routine of going back to Japan once a year or maybe even, even twice. I'm thinking of doing like smaller visits when it's not during a big show. Hang out at the nursery, talk to Mr. Tanaka about, you know, the. What's happening in bonsai. Studying a little bit more, you know, always learning what's the latest thing, what stuff I maybe missed when I was, you know, there. There's always something. [00:08:49] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, one thing that I really appreciate about you, Peter, is that I feel like you're so open to continuing to learn. And I think that I have the utmost respect for your technical bonsai skills. [00:09:04] Speaker A: Oh, thank you. [00:09:05] Speaker B: I mean, I think you are the best, one of the best in the world. [00:09:09] Speaker A: Oh, thanks. [00:09:10] Speaker B: But with that said, I feel like everyone can still learn any. Like there's all, you know, bonsai is. [00:09:18] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. You know, I think what really got me thinking more that way within bonsai is I remember when I was in San Jose this after my apprenticeship, I was still in San Jose, you know, you assume, okay, you did a. An apprenticeship. Been doing bonsai for so long, you know, a lot of stuff. Right. And the local Maduri Club, sometimes what they'll do is they'll have. They'll pick up certain members and they'll try to get the members to talk about a certain topic, regardless if they actually know it or not. [00:09:51] Speaker B: Right. [00:09:52] Speaker A: And the whole point is to get them to kind of study that topic and try to understand it and then force them to try to teach it. [00:10:00] Speaker B: Right. [00:10:01] Speaker A: And then they do say that when you teach something, you get better at it too. Right. [00:10:04] Speaker B: 100 so. [00:10:05] Speaker A: So that's the whole thing, you know, it's not always 100. Perfect. Nor. Nor is that the intent. But you would think after doing bonsai for A long time or something. If somebody was new telling you something, you would, you would assume that you'd probably like, know what they're going to tell you. Right. But time and time again, I found that every time that happened, not just in Madur, but in other events, someone always comes up with an idea or sees something a little different. And it might not be some huge lesson that I get, but it's just a little nugget of information that. That kind of surprises me. And I would think, you know, I never thought of it that way. [00:10:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:46] Speaker A: Right. And now it, it kind of puts me on the path of, you know, it. It might become nothing. It could be totally a game changer because I got too complicit in what I thought was correct or whatever process I'm going with. Right. So. And I found that, yeah, it doesn't even have to be experienced people. It could just be brand new people. And I learned my lesson. I mean, it happened once and I was like, okay, maybe that's like a flu. It happens a couple of times and now it just becomes a fact. It's like there's always something. [00:11:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:20] Speaker A: Right. To learn again. It doesn't mean you're learning a whole bunch during the whole lecture, but sometimes those little nuggets are. There's gems there. Right. And so, so paying attention and just thinking about, yeah. How. How can I do things better is. Is did I miss something? Right. That's. That's the key thing because I mean, we, we can't really assume, any of us, that we know everything. Yeah. About anything. Right. [00:11:47] Speaker B: Totally. [00:11:48] Speaker A: That's not. That's just untrue. That's impossible. Right. Yeah. So you might as well learn because that's just how it is, how it. [00:11:57] Speaker B: Has to be be so that's very wise of you. And I feel like you should always be a student of the game, even if you're a professional in something. [00:12:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:12:07] Speaker B: And just being open. I appreciate that you are open minded to continuing to learn and that's why I've seen your game just continue to elevate. And every time I come into your trees, they get a little bit better. [00:12:21] Speaker A: Okay. [00:12:22] Speaker B: I feel like you have new tricks every once in a while and you're always tinkering with things and tinkering in a. In a good way. Like you're experimenting. [00:12:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:12:32] Speaker B: And figuring things out and then you're, you're learning and your game is being elevated. So I, I really appreciate that about you. I feel like maybe I've seen some bonsai professionals almost not want to admit that they, that they want to learn more or that they have more to learn. [00:12:50] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I can understand that. Right. Especially when you're, you're running a business, you're trying to make a living doing bonsai. You know, you're, you have to be the person that has the answers to everything. So that, I mean, I understand the pressure of that. So, so for some people, they, they may get a sense that, you know, they can't show that side because it, it potentially shows some kind of a, a weakness. And. Yeah, it's kind of a slippery subject. It's, you know, to, to be honest about the whole thing. I mean, generally, I try to, I try to answer everything that people ask me. Right. Because at the end of the day, I am supposed to know. Right. Sometimes, though, I will say that if I don't know, usually I try to find out. I won't lie to people. Right? For sure. Yeah. Yeah. But at some point you do need to know a lot too, right? You can't just say, well, I don't know, I'll find out. And that's the answer to every question and be like, okay, wait a minute. Right? What's happening here? Yeah, yeah. It might seem a little weird, but I, I, I get it. Yeah. It's, it's, it's tough, especially when you're trying to make a living and you, you just, you just don't want to be the, the one that's maybe don't know. And then people, and then you're, you're worried that people think of you a certain way because of that. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. [00:14:10] Speaker B: I get that pressure as well. [00:14:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:12] Speaker B: But I, but I do, I really appreciate when someone has the confidence to say, hey, I don't actually know the answer to that question. I'm going to look into it, or I'm experimenting or I'm going to go learn from my mentor. [00:14:27] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, it's interesting, right, Because I have found also that if I don't have an answer to a question either, because I've never gotten that question before. Sometimes, um, I, I have found that there are ways of finding that answer is, is as opposed to, it's not like, okay, I go to Google and find the answer, though. I mean, you can find a lot of answers Google too, right. It, it's just more of understanding the process. Right. You, you fall back on what you already know. How you know if you're, you're talking about a, a bonsai, how they're growing or Whatnot. You, you, what I, what I'll do with my clients sometimes is, you know, I don't know the answer to that question, but let's think this through, right? Let's just make this an exercise. Right? We know that the tree does this, this and this, and we're seeing this, and that's the question, right. You know, what is the reason for that? You know, can we kind of think it through or at least kind of maybe come up with some kind of answer and then we can maybe then experiment on it or give that a try. And of course we will. On the, on in the background, we'll still kind of think about it or look through some resources, books or Internet, or what other professionals might be saying or any bonsai person might be saying. But I, I did, I have found that, yeah, if you're always thinking about, okay, how do I get better? How, how do I fall back on my fundamentals? A lot of times you, those answers do come. You just gotta kind of work through it. Right. You learn how to problem solve, essentially, which is a big thing. I tend to talk with a lot, with people is you, you have a lot of information. Right. It's just, it's, it's already there. You just gotta know how to work with it. Right. Manipulate it, use it to your advantage. You already have. Don't let just sit there. [00:16:25] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Very nice. Well, speaking of gaining knowledge. I know that, or I found it interesting that you were talking about potentially asking Mr. Tanaka a few questions. [00:16:39] Speaker A: Oh, yeah? Yeah. [00:16:40] Speaker B: Are there any questions you might be willing to share that you're interested in asking him? [00:16:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And, and I, I do need to write some of these down because I, I, questions will pop in my head all the time and if I don't write it down, then I forget it and then I remember again. So I've not gotten a chance to write a lot of this stuff down, but I do need to sit down and do it. But I mean, one of the, one of the main things are, I mean, there's a couple of three questions, not so much to see if he. Well, sometimes it's not even to see if he has experience with it. Some of it is just to kind of get an idea. Okay, well, what's kind of happening with that around? Right? What has he heard about it? Even if it's something that he doesn't normally do, some questions on specific trees, on how they grow or, you know, is it a, is it common for it to do this at a certain season? Right. That those kind of things just kind of iron out the. Kind of. The small detail stuff, or at least comparing notes. Like, this tree is growing this way for me, this is my environment. What are you noticing? Is it similar for you? Maybe he has a little gem. He's like, oh, yeah, that happens all the time. You know, can do this. And that could totally solve it. Right. And I feel kind of foolish about it because I visited him so many times since my apprenticeship and because I bring groups and. And usually we're always kind of in a rush. I never really get a chance to sit down and ask him these things. So it's such a. It's like a missed opportunity all the time. But. But I mean, one of the main things is just that I was going to ask him. It's just to get a. Kind of. Get a feel for what the. The bones I seen in Japan is now. Right. I've been gone for a long time, you know, is it positive? Is it getting better? Is new people coming in? Is it stagnating? You know, what's, what's, what are the current trends in Japan? That. That kind of stuff. Just kind of, kind of seeing what's happening again. Maybe there is something new that could be interesting that we can look into or experiment with or try. Because those, I mean, changes do happen in Japan, you know, some. A lot of people don't think that happens, but it does happen. It's just much more subtle. Yeah. So you just have to pay attention. [00:18:58] Speaker B: Yeah. It'd be really cool to hear his perspective. A bonsai professional in the mix. I hear a lot about China and people from different countries buying all the, all the stock up and. [00:19:13] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, that. That's something I wanted to ask him too. You know, how, how. How real is that? You know, is. Is. Is Japan running out of bonsai? You know, that kind of stuff. Yeah. And all we're hearing here is kind of through, you know, not direct from the source. Sometimes it's just, you know, somebody in the middle talking about stuff and. [00:19:36] Speaker B: Can be the game of telephone a bit. [00:19:38] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:19:40] Speaker B: The cognac is super good. [00:19:42] Speaker A: Oh, good, good. Would you like more little. Okay. This one's a different one. This one's a different one than the last one. [00:19:50] Speaker B: So they're both cognac, though. [00:19:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:19:55] Speaker B: Thank you very much. [00:19:56] Speaker A: I appreciate it. [00:19:59] Speaker B: I don't even know if I've drink. Drank. [00:20:01] Speaker A: I think I've given you some before in the past. [00:20:03] Speaker B: Okay. [00:20:04] Speaker A: All right. Very nice. But yeah, a little, little easier to take than whiskey. Yeah. For somebody that doesn't normally drink, I. I would say, yeah, it's a little bit more approachable, for sure. [00:20:14] Speaker B: This is very good. Double cheers. Can we choose? Is that a thing? Do you cheers twice. [00:20:20] Speaker A: I have never done that, so I don't know. I don't see why you can't. [00:20:25] Speaker B: We're double cheers in tonight. [00:20:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Japan, they'll do like, come by a bunch of times. Okay. Kind of. Yeah, There we go. So there we go. Nice. [00:20:35] Speaker B: So quest, we were talking about questions for Mr. Tanaka, so a general perspective on what's going on within the bonsai scene and culture. [00:20:50] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And. And like. And like you hit on one of the questions I was going to ask him is. Yeah, I hear all of this moving of bonsai out of Japan, like, it's been a lot more buying from. From other countries, you know, is, is the inventory in a way dropping or is the inventory just as as high? Yeah, some of the other things. Yeah. Related to bonsai is just kind of seeing where. Where ceramics are at. Right. I know a lot of kilns have closed. The last time I was there was in November of 23. And I knew that a lot of the. The Chinese antique pots in Japan, the prices of them were actually declining at that time, so. And then on top of the yen being weak. Right. We're getting some incredible deals that three, five years prior was like, the prices were so much higher. So I bought a number of pots then. So it'd be interesting to kind of see where. Where that's at too. Is. Is that still the same case? I mean, that's kind of more for business stuff, really. Just kind of getting an idea what things are valued these days. So. Yeah, there's going to be a little bit of that. Yeah. You know, one thing I'd like to ask him is because his kids are getting a little bit older now, one thing I'd like to have him do is actually come out to the US again. Like he came out in 2016, maybe. [00:22:27] Speaker B: I totally forgot. You guys went to the Bristlecone Pines, right? Oh, oh, no, no, that was with Juan. [00:22:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, Juan was here when he came. I can't quite remember because he was in here very long. Yeah, it's a while ago. I can't remember where I took him. [00:22:47] Speaker B: That was quite a while ago. [00:22:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:22:49] Speaker B: I could have sworn I saw A picture of Mr. Tanaka at the Bristlecone Pines, but I could be tripping. [00:22:56] Speaker A: Yeah. I may have taken them to the Sierras, which is only like an hour and a half from here to see some big junipers. I think maybe that's what it was. [00:23:05] Speaker B: That's probably what it was. [00:23:06] Speaker A: Just because the brisk home would be like a three day thing. And. Which is kind of funny because when. When I was talking on the phone before he came out, he said he wanted to go to Oregon and see some of the bonsai people there. And he was here for such a limited time and I said go into Oregon, that's like a 12 hour drive. Yeah, yeah. It's not like next door. Right. You know, which a lot of people mistaken when they come to the U.S. they think it's. Yeah. They don't think it's as big as it is. Yeah. So that's funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had just set up my garden, so it's very, very new. And he came and took a look. But yeah, now that his kids are getting a little older, I'm hoping that he would be able to get away from Japan and come out here and. And kind of see bonsai here, talk with people. He may just want to come out and just kind of do a little vacation thing. But you know, it'd be great if we got him to do something. Yeah. If anything, a critique of something just to kind of get his perspective on things. Because I mean, I learned a ton from him, so. [00:24:09] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:24:11] Speaker A: And I'm sure there's a bunch of stuff that I didn't learn from him too, so any. Any chance would be great. [00:24:17] Speaker B: Definitely. Definitely. So cool. One thing we were talking about earlier is. And I don't know if you want to mention this or not, but we were talking about shinpaku at the Kokufu. [00:24:30] Speaker A: Oh yeah, yeah, that's right. That was a question I was going to ask me Tanaga, like we were talking about yesterday. I was looking at. Just trying to study Japanese aesthetics a little bit more or at least get a better understanding of it. And I was talking to some people about different types of trees and generally the aesthetic, what the Japanese kind of. What are they looking for when they look at a bonsai, when they decide that it's of. Of quality. Right. It's high quality or low quality or everything in between. And just kind of by accident we're looking through. I'm looking through kokufu books and I'm kind of noticing. And I could be totally wrong. Right. I haven't looked into it super deep yet, but I. I started noticing that there are more common trees that win, like kokufu, for example. But I also see that there are Trees, like. And maybe it's partly because of where we're at here and we're around junipers a lot because we collect them here that I noticed not that many junipers win kokufu. They do, but it's not kind of the norm in a way, like you. It usually tends to be. Like, sometimes you get kind of different trees, but it always tends to be like a black pine, a white pine. Again, a sprinkle of junipers here and there. And, you know, instead of thinking about it, like, hopefully it's not. Well, I'm pretty sure it's not this. But instead of thinking of it as, well, maybe they just don't dislike junipers or something, or dislike whatever species that don't seem to always win. I'm thinking more of, well, what is it about it that they're not attracted to? Right. Which again, will just help me understand their aesthetic preferences. Right. Some trees might not fall into that category or show something that they tend to like. And that's just the nature of that tree. Right. And that's just how it is. So that was kind of what I was looking for. So I'm kind of interested in seeing what Mr. Tanaka's take on that is because it could be something that is. It could be very surprising. Currently, my hypothesis on this. Right. Again, I could be totally wrong. And I'm okay with that. Right. I'm finding out, I'm not making any statements, is that it does seem like in Japanese, bonsai, or bonsai in Japan, one of the key, key things is that they like to see in a tree is just super great age. Super great age, right. So I always kind of went with that. And you think about a juniper and you're like, well, junipers are super old, right? They're collected. They're. They could be thousands of years old, Right. Whereas a black pine, it could be. It could be 300 years old, but it's not. It's not a thousand years old. Right. So why is the black pine winning? Right. How come a. You know, I thought the age was a important thing. And so I started thinking, well, maybe there's more to it than that. There has to be more. Something more to it. Why is it not? Because you. It just seems like they're always talking about, well, this tree is really old, right? And what I'm starting to think is that it's not so much as how old the tree is. It really comes down to how old the tree is as bonsai. And so there is a human element that's Part of it, it's not just, oh, this tree is just old. There seems to be some kind of reference to the people also. And I do wonder, and here's the hypothesis is that when you have a hundred year old bonsai, that's a black pine, did they weigh that more? And when they say it's old, they don't just say, well, the tree is just physically old, but it's old in relation to being around human beings. Right. The interaction between the two. Whereas a juniper is collected maybe 20 years ago and it's been worked on and it looks great. It's not like they look terrible, but maybe they, maybe it's lacking that connection and that's why maybe it's not seen as great. Yeah, that's, that's my current hypothesis on that. So it'd be interesting to see what is taken and then continuing to study that and, and wonder in way. [00:29:10] Speaker B: What'S. [00:29:11] Speaker A: Kind of that key thing that it doesn't necessarily mean any of this is correct or incorrect, but just understanding is the point. Right. Where are they coming from? What am I maybe not seeing? What key things maybe I'm missing out on that could be important that maybe I want to integrate into my bonsai. Right. Because I always thought, well, as long as it's old and I make it look old, seems like that's great. And I think for the most part you're going to be successful if you go with that attitude. But am I missing something? And, and we know that in, in Japanese cultures or a lot of Eastern thinking, things tend to be very subtle. So again, you have to really pay attention. It's not in your face at all. Yeah. And you can totally miss it if you're especially coming from western culture. You know, like us both, right. We grew up in the US and well, we were born in US and grew up here. We are Westerners, right? We're, we might look Asian, but we're not Easter. We're Westerners with all the philosophies that come with that for sure. [00:30:20] Speaker B: We, you got to write that question down because. [00:30:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, right. [00:30:24] Speaker B: I want you to ask Mr. Tanaka, I want to record another episode with. [00:30:28] Speaker A: You and you can. Oh, after. Okay. [00:30:30] Speaker B: Mr. Tanaka's perspective. [00:30:31] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, I, I will do that. I would do that. [00:30:34] Speaker B: That's very interesting. I kind of wondered if it might just be because there's not that many high quality Yamadori junipers in Japan. [00:30:45] Speaker A: I mean when I was there I saw some amazing ones. [00:30:49] Speaker B: Really? Okay. [00:30:49] Speaker A: I mean there, there are some really amazing ones. [00:30:52] Speaker B: Oh, I definitely know some ones that just blow my world. I mean, like a couple of my favorite trees, all time trees are junipers in Japan, like Kimura's dragon tree. I forget the exact name. And then the God of Wind tree. [00:31:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. That's probably one of my favorite trees. [00:31:11] Speaker B: So legit. [00:31:12] Speaker A: Especially favorite juniper. For sure. That's an amazing tree. Yes. And surprisingly, giant tree too. That is not a small tree. Whatever you think the size is for anybody that knows what we're talking. Actually, if you look up God of wind, Bonsai, you'll probably find a photo of it. It's way bigger than you think. It looks big, but it is so much bigger when you see it in person. It's. I was pretty lucky I was able to see it in person because we visited the garden where it was at. [00:31:39] Speaker B: Yeah. That's so cool. [00:31:42] Speaker A: Yeah. But, you know, I mean, part of it could be like, you know, going back to why black pines or white pines might win. I mean, black pines are so integrated in Japanese culture that there's probably gonna be a bias towards black pines. Right. That's. That's so much in their history. [00:31:58] Speaker B: For sure. [00:31:59] Speaker A: It's, you know, we, we. We don't understand that because we don't have that connection with white pines. But there are other trees that we do connect with more. Yeah. Right. So we, we can kind of see it that way. [00:32:12] Speaker B: Totally, totally. Very cool. Very cool. Well, any other questions you're thinking about with Mr. Tanaka? [00:32:21] Speaker A: If not, that's off the top of my head. [00:32:23] Speaker B: I probably. [00:32:24] Speaker A: I don't remember getting. It'll pop up. That's why I gotta write this stuff down. [00:32:28] Speaker B: We gotta get you to write them. Yeah, I'm writing them down right now. [00:32:31] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, there. There you go. Don't let me forget. Awesome. [00:32:36] Speaker B: Well, that's so cool. And what an experience you're about to have. I am jealous. I'm not going this year and I should be. It's the Kokofu 100, but I'm sure it will be just so. [00:32:47] Speaker A: So. So I know Mr. Tanaka has a copy of the first Kokufu book also, so I gotta remind myself to ask him. I've seen it when I was there and it's just a small booklet and it's all in black and white. But I think a lot of my clients, a lot of my friends that are going with me, they would love to see that copy. [00:33:07] Speaker B: Oh, that's cool. [00:33:08] Speaker A: It'd be really cool to see the first one versus the hundredth. [00:33:11] Speaker B: I wonder what that's worth. [00:33:13] Speaker A: That's a great question. I'd love to buy it. I never see one for sale. I would buy in a heartbeat. Right. [00:33:19] Speaker B: Probably super rare. [00:33:20] Speaker A: I would assume so. [00:33:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:22] Speaker A: I would assume so. [00:33:24] Speaker B: Interesting. All right, well, so changing gears here a bit. [00:33:30] Speaker A: I'm. [00:33:31] Speaker B: I'm hoping to pick your brain about deciduous trees. That's kind of like one of the main subjects that I wanted to hit on for this podcast. However, before we get into that, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about collecting bonsai. I guess recently I went through an exercise. I've never done this before, but what I did was I looked at all my bonsai trees in pots. In bonsai pots. So my actual trees that I consider like bonsai trees, not just stuff that I'm growing from seed, cutting, air layer, or recently collected. [00:34:09] Speaker A: Okay. [00:34:10] Speaker B: And I ranked them, and I found out. Well, first off, I never even. Well, I'm always. The number of trees that I have is always changing. [00:34:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:20] Speaker B: But it's roughly anywhere from about 15 to 22 trees. I'm currently at 18 trees. Oh, I have a bunch of other stuff that I'm growing. Right. And some newly collected trees that I'm not counting, but anything in an actual bonsai pot. I have 18 trees right now. [00:34:40] Speaker A: Okay. [00:34:41] Speaker B: And I ranked them 1, 2, 3, like, 1 through 18. But what I had trouble with is figuring out what am I specifically ranking these by? Or how am I criteria, how am I figuring out the metrics to rank these trees by? [00:35:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:01] Speaker B: And so that got tricky because my trees are all in all different stages. So some of them are showable, some of them are five years away from show. Some are 10, some are 12, and there's just this range. So I didn't know if I should just say, okay, what are my best potential trees or what are my best trees in 10 years from now? Or what are just my. The best trunks or the best. I don't know. Like, basically I. I just tried to rank them and I don't know how to think about that. I guess I was curious if you have any thoughts and how you maybe recommend to your clients. [00:35:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it. It. It's kind of a multifaceted thing. Right. Trying. Trying to rank your tree and. And this is all in the purpose of getting a better understanding of which are your higher quality trees and potentially what are your lower quality trees where you might want to change out. Right. And that's. That's the assumption that your goal is to just have the best collection you can have. Right. You're kind of calling out the collection from time to time, getting better and better trees. And. And generally the best collections do that, right? They don't. They don't keep the not so good trees for. For long, right? They're. They're looking for better material. It doesn't even have to be finished, right? It's just the material itself has more potential than another tree. Not to say that you should just quit on projects too quickly, because sometimes there's potential there that you're not seeing yet or you're not experiencing seeing, and it really is there. So doing yourself sometimes is tough, right? Sometimes it's helpful if you have somebody experience helping you with that too, which I do do with a number of my clients sometimes. You know, we all have kind of biases, right? It could be your first tree, right? So you're gonna want to hang on to that more. Whereas for me, I'd be like, okay, you gotta move on with this, right? And maybe it doesn't have the potential, but you, You. You still think of it, well, it's my first tree, you know, I don't wanna. Which is okay also, right? So at the end of the day, you gotta think about, well, what is it that you're really trying to do? So if your goal is to, say, have the best collection you can have, if that is your goal, we usually. I'll ask a few questions, right? Okay. And one of the things that you're talking about is right now you have 18 trees. You know, what. What is the ideal number for you to have? I usually tell people that if they. If they're working, they're not retired, they're working 25 trees. Usually that's what I tell people, if they're working 25 trees. If, again, if you're looking for the best material possible, you want the best collection. And as a side note, right, however big all of our collections are, I mean, and it always happens, right? Even for me, you get way too many trees. And at some point you're like, okay, I have to get rid of some. And that number could be 50. It could be a thousand, right? At some point, we'll be like, okay, one thing you can do is for sure, for the folks out there that maybe are unsure that they have too many trees, or maybe they already know that they have too many trees. Is generally my kind of gauge of that is that if you ever walk by your tree and you just say, I can't get to this tree this time for whatever work that needs to be done this time, you have too many trees. [00:38:53] Speaker B: That's a great game. [00:38:54] Speaker A: Because if you have really good trees, there is no such thing as. I can't get to it this time. I have to skip it this season for whatever you normally do this season for. Because once you skip it, the tree will stagnate, and it usually. Well, it doesn't even stagnate. It actually declines in quality because the tree is always growing. Right. So it's either getting better or it's actually getting worse. It's never like, okay, the same. It may kind of look the same, but it's not the same. It's declining. Right. It's not getting better. So I would say if there. Or if you run into the incident where it's like, oh, man, I gotta do this, maybe you're not that interested in that tree anymore. Right. If it seems like a chore now, and. And I have found that when people start to downsize their collection, they. They end up really enjoying bonsai a little bit more because it's not so much of a chore. They don't feel like they're always like, I'm always trying to play catch up. I can't keep up with my trees. So now you're stressed out, which is the opposite of what usually a hobby is. Right. You're supposed to have fun doing it, but now you're stressing out because you're like, I can't repot all these trees on time. Right. I. I need to do it, but I just can't. I, you know, got family, work, all that stuff. And. And that's why. And that's why I say 25. It. Not just. It's not some random number pops up. It just seems like that seems to be the number that at least people can kind of manage. [00:40:23] Speaker B: Yeah. And then it's. It's plus or minus from there to term with a mil, there's a million factors that lead to. [00:40:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. [00:40:35] Speaker B: How much someone's working, their other obligations. [00:40:38] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you have a set schedule where you can work on those trees, even if you are working, then. Yeah. Can you have more than 25? Absolutely. So, yeah. Maybe even say that number 25 is not even the number. It's just. Are you able to finish everything you need to do? Right. For sure. Be super stressed out about it. That's, you know, it's like the best gauge. Yeah. Yeah. And then that. And then you find your number. And I. I know people in the past, once they find their number, whatever that number, let's just say it's 50, stick with that number. Right. If you decide you see something at a auction, somebody selling something, you ask yourself, okay, you like that tree? You want that tree? You have to just ask yourself, will that tree make my collection better? Right. And if I do buy this tree, what tree? Leaves. So now you're, you're not. You don't accidentally. Well, okay, I'll have 51. [00:41:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:35] Speaker A: You know, before long it's 70. Right. It's like, well, I was supposed to have 50 and now it's 90. Right. It happens fast, for sure. You know, I think everybody can understand that. It's happened to all of us. Yeah. Yeah. [00:41:49] Speaker B: So I really like the idea of having someone that you trust in bonsai, ideally like your teacher or a bonsai professional coming through and actually ranking your trees and then saying, hey, I think you should cut these. [00:42:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:06] Speaker B: Because even though that professional will have biases, they're going to be different than your bias biases. And so I do think that's, that's a great way to go about it and I would like for you to do that. [00:42:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I've had a number of clients ask me to do that. And, you know, they don't always take my advice 100%, which I understand there are. Sometimes people keep trees for other reasons. Right. Sentimental value, stuff like that. I get it. But yeah, it definitely helps when you just get kind of outside eyes kind of looking in and saying, okay, you should pass on these and you should focus on these trees. Right. So once we come up with, say, this number. Right. So how do we decide what's the ideal one? Because if, if we're gonna at some point maybe replace something, we do wanna know. Well, we don't wanna replace our best tree by accident. Right. And so part of it is always for sure, you know, studying bonsai and thinking about what is it about these, this particular tree that I like, what are these qualities that I like or I should keep working with, what are some of the qualities that are maybe not as ideal. Right. So, yeah, I mean, there, there's so many variables. [00:43:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:27] Speaker A: Some of the, some of the things I would think about is how old the tree is, how what the size of the tree is. You know, the, the size is more straightforward in the sense of what is it that the, the client want, what size are they willing to work with. Right. Or they're comfortable working with. Usually when people are learning how to do bonsai or trying to get better at bonsai, having larger trees is a bit better for that. Not to say that having larger trees is easier, but it allows you to make some mistakes along the way without penalizing you. [00:44:04] Speaker B: You know, interesting you say that because I feel like a lot of beginners do the opposite of that. [00:44:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:44:09] Speaker B: Go with really small stuff. [00:44:11] Speaker A: Yeah. And, and, and that's why they have such a hard time getting better at bonsai sometimes. Well, not sometimes. It's a fact. A lot of people have a hard time getting it better at bonsai because they're working with material that requires such specific growing conditions and patterns and working on it just the right time. Like you just can't, you can't just mess around with a shohin and think it'll get better. You have to be so much more precise on those trees and have a real good understanding of how to grow a tree at a certain rate. You know, you get a giant tree, you know, you don't, you don't need like a four foot tall tree either. Right. But you know, if your candle is half an inch longer than you, like when the tree is two feet tall, it doesn't matter that much. Right. You can absorb that. If it's 8 inches tall and your candle is half an inch too big, it's like game over. This tree is not too big. Yeah. If it's eight inches now, it's eight and a half inches. Yeah, it's. And, and that's on the top. Right. If it's on the left and right now it's an inch bigger overall. Right. [00:45:14] Speaker B: So that's really interesting. I feel like it's a little bit counterintuitive for the new individual to bonsai. [00:45:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:22] Speaker B: They think smaller tree, easier to work with. It's gonna be easier for my lifestyle. [00:45:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:28] Speaker B: But it's actually more challenging in many ways. [00:45:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I, and I mean a part of, part of it could be that smaller trees sometimes when you're new, they're just is cheaper too. That's instead of like a big trunk thing or some big thing. People tend to just ask for more money. And when you're new, you're like, do I spend 50 bucks? Or that big tree is 300 bucks? Well, I mean, I can digest 50 bucks. But then yeah, that 50 bucks, you really pay for that because you don't really get better sometimes. Yeah. So what are you really saving? But nobody's there to tell them that really. So they just see it. 50 bucks, 300 bucks. Well, you know, I don't want to kill somebody, something that's 300 bucks. I'm going to go with the 50. Right. But yeah, you're right. It's very counterintuitive. And I find that once people get into a little bit larger trees. So I say that's part of just thinking about the collection too, right? If you want better collection, if you don't have a ton of time to like, nitpick like a little tree all the time, like, because your schedule is busy, you definitely don't want little trees. You have to water them more too. Right? If you can't do that, right. Just don't bother. Just, you know, go with something that's bigger. So, so that, that's the kind of the size factor stuff. Now, other reasons for the size is, you know, bigger trees, a lot of times they're just more impressive looking, right? It's. It's hard. You can't really deny that. Regardless if you like that it's heavy or not, or it's a pain to move around. When you see a big tree next to a small tree, you just tend to gravitate towards the. The big tree. So sometimes people are looking more for that. They just want to look in their garden and be like, wow, look at these. These are great. It's. You just don't get the same effect when the tree is only 8 inches now. I mean, that's not how everybody feels. Of course. They're shohin people out there or people love small trees and they don't care about the big one. I get it. So. So I would think of so going back to just kind of. Yeah. How. How would you rate your own tree? I. I would go by age. You know, if you're just looking at pure quality, no sentimental values, all that stuff. I would look at the quality of. I mean, the age of the material. How old is it? Does it have, you know, usually I try to keep the older trees older, as in it's been a bonsai for a long time and then combination that the tree is actually just physically old. Right. That's one of my key things I look for. Of course, you can get into all this structural stuff, like, okay, does it have all of the characteristics of what I like in bonsai? Right. And. And I have to be careful when I, I say that because so this is where it can split off to like a million different directions. Like, what kind of bonsai do you like? What kind of style do you like? And then everything changes. Right. For me, I, I tend to look at, okay, the tree is old. It has some abstract but also naturalistic characteristics. I mean, it still looks like A tree. A miniature version of a tree. There could be some abstract elements, but naturalistic styles of taper change. Things like that are important, especially if we talk about deciduous trees. It just seems more important for those types of trees, as opposed to a juniper. Then I'll apply things like rarity of material based on our area. Based on just in general, too. Right. A Chinese elm is just more abundant than a Korean hornbeam. And if they're both the same age, they both have nice trunks. Right. Equally nice trunks. You just got to go with the Korean hornbeam because those are just harder to get right. If you had to choose. So. So rarity. Right. Material that's not common or. Yeah. You don't see very much or it's just hard to get. Hopefully it's not material that doesn't grow in your area. That's why it's hard to get right. You know, you don't want to do that. [00:49:52] Speaker B: I feel like that's a. That's a big factor in trees. You should keep. And knock. [00:49:56] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. We don't want to forget that. Yeah. Try to grow trees that grow well for you. Not a struggle. Right. Some people will take on that challenge, and that's fine. That's fine. But just be aware of it. Yeah. Don't. Don't get a battle. Yeah. Don't get a tree that won't grow in your environment very well. Yeah. [00:50:16] Speaker B: I think that's like. I mean, that is if that's the number one factor in whether I have that species and variety in my garden or not. Like, I want things that grow well. I don't mess around with stuff that doesn't. [00:50:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, I probably should have started with that. Right. And that just tells you that. I just assume that. Right. But we can't assume that, especially if somebody is just starting their collection. Yeah. Don't. Don't start growing a bunch of Japanese maple if your water quality is bad until you fix that. And. Yeah. And sometimes when I. When I sell trees to clients, I'll ask them questions like that, too. Can they even grow it? Right. Regardless of how great the tree is or potentially how much money I could make. Right. I mean, I. I can't sell a tree to somebody that's just going to kill it. Right. It sucks for everybody, especially the tree. They're not happy. The tree's not doing well. You know, there. It's not like they don't call me and say, hey, Peter, what the. What the hell? Yeah. So. So, yeah, it should probably grow for Them. So I do tend to have questions, especially on the deciduous side. Talking about deciduous trees is. Good water is definitely a, a key thing. Don't. Don't even bother if you have bad water. There are some deciduous truth, like Chinese elms that can handle bad water. Korean hornbeams can kind of handle bad water. Actually. It turns out it's not like they love it. [00:51:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:42] Speaker A: But they can handle it. Okay. And no tree really likes bad water. It's just different. Trees can handle it better. [00:51:49] Speaker B: I feel like in the US this, maybe this is a little tangential, but I feel like one of the biggest things that we can do and not everybody. Because you have great water here in Auburn, for example. But most people don't have great water. [00:52:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:52:08] Speaker B: Really hard water. [00:52:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:09] Speaker B: And so I feel like we should use RO systems a lot more frequently. [00:52:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:16] Speaker B: Or some type of system to filter out your water. [00:52:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Or at least just address the hardness. Right? [00:52:23] Speaker B: Definitely. [00:52:24] Speaker A: I mean, there, there are situations where it's not the hardness itself, it's some other things, but those tend to be more kind of smaller percentages of things people have to deal with. Like in Davis, they, they had an issue with high boron levels in their water. And that was the problem. It wasn't even that. It was just hard. It just had boron. I mean, they were telling pregnant women to not drink the tap water. Right. That's how bad they fixed it since way better now. [00:52:48] Speaker B: Okay. [00:52:49] Speaker A: But it is still semi hard. So it, it does need to be. Yeah. Reverse osmosis seems to be the best. Essentially you're just removing all the hardness. And when we talk about hardness, generally it's calcium in the water. For people like me here in Auburn, where a lot of the water we get is from surface water, like from a snow melt, there's no chance really for the water to pick up a lot of minerals. For people who live in areas where a lot of the water comes from the ground, it, it can be pretty. It can be very hard to the point where it's very common. Like people in Fresno, it's very common for households to have water softeners. Right. So they mix salt in there and it binds with the calcium, I think, and so it doesn't stick. It's still there. Right. The problem is if you water the tree with that, now you're watering your tree with salt water too. That's. That's the problem. So that doesn't really work. That doesn't work either. I know people have had some success using potassium based water. Softeners. But it's, it's price just still not ideal. I do know people who have water with that and their trees were okay. [00:53:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:58] Speaker A: So it's not like they were dying or anything. But I do wonder, you know, they're okay. They're. They're growing. But are we missing out on kind of their true potential? Because it's, it's still a little bit of an issue. Right? [00:54:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:12] Speaker A: Well, again, how far do you want to push your bonsai? Yeah. If you want your trees to be super refined, everything has to be perfect. It can't be good enough. [00:54:23] Speaker B: Right. [00:54:24] Speaker A: Good enough means your tree is good enough. It's not great. [00:54:30] Speaker B: That's a great. [00:54:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that quote. That's a good Peter G. Quote. Right. I mean, I heard it from somewhere, so it's not just something I came. [00:54:40] Speaker B: Up with for sure. Take credit. [00:54:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Just take it. [00:54:45] Speaker B: We'll make it. [00:54:45] Speaker A: Sure. Yeah. So. So those are kind of the things I would think of is, you know, age. Okay. Just age itself. Age as bonsai. Does it have some. And, and this is. I am, I am glossing through this. Right. Which is. Okay. Does it have kind of the characteristics of high level bonsai or what I think of as high level bonsai? Does it have those characteristics? And can we just keep going? I do tend to. And then the, the last thing is, is maybe rarity, right? Is it something that's harder to find? Maybe you should hang on to those. You can't just get another one if you get rid of something. Right. So, so those are some, some factors which, which is interesting because sometimes you may end up keeping a Korean hornbeam that's maybe quality wise, not as good as your Chinese elm. And it's like a showstopper. People like how the Chinese elm looks and you have to decide which one to get rid of. Yeah, that, that gets tricky. That gets really tricky. Right. Because you have a tree that's looking really good and you have a tree that's maybe not looking as good, but it's harder to get. That gets really tough. Right. I guess the answer really is, well, if you think you can get the Korean hornbeam to be like really showable or you, you feel is at the level that you want that will then exceed the elm, then maybe you decide to go with it. Right. But if, if your goal is say, you know, I don't want to, you know, it's going to take me 30 years to develop this Korean hornbeam before it's looking good, that I want that I feel Good. About putting it in a show. And my Chinese elm is looking just great now, and. [00:56:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:32] Speaker A: And I'm happy about that. And I can show it now. Okay. Now it changes. Right? It's. I. It's a time factor. Okay. Maybe that's another factor that we gotta think about. Well, how long is it gonna take to develop this thing? Yeah. It's rare. Yeah. It's old. But before it ever gets really good, you might be dead. [00:56:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:57] Speaker A: You know, people will say, enjoy the journey, which is true. You know, enjoy the development of bonsai. But sometimes you want to see a project through. I totally understand. Right. I want to see projects through. I. There's plenty of trees that I know that I might not see the. The final. The end of it. Right. Because I've passed away. Right. Trees. It's going to take too long. But I want to see something too. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have a lot of patience in bonsai, but I don't have, like, infinite patience either. Right. I'm not 100% all the way on that. That end. Yeah. [00:57:33] Speaker B: Well, what I found in grading my collection, it is really hard. That time element was the hardest for me. Maybe. Because maybe you have a trunk that. Let's say you have two Chinese quints. Hmm. One of the trunks is like a 7 with no ramification, and the other one is a 4 with perfect ramification. [00:57:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:58:00] Speaker B: Which one do you pick? [00:58:01] Speaker A: Which one do you pick? If you have to pick one or the other. Yeah, yeah. Like, one is. [00:58:04] Speaker B: The four is perfectly developed. It's show ready. You can show it. The next one is going to take you 15, you know, 10 to 15 years before it's, like, pretty showable. [00:58:16] Speaker A: That's. Those. [00:58:17] Speaker B: Get those questions. I tend to want to take the seven and say, let's get rid of the four. [00:58:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. But I think generally, you know, for you, we're not that old. We're not that young, but we're not that old either. Yeah. That we. If we. If we feel that the project is going to take 15, maybe even 20 years, we know that's something we can potentially see. Right. And we say it's worthwhile. If. If we looked at the tree, it says, yeah, it's going to take 50 years. That changes a lot of stuff. That. That's interesting thinking about that now, because I. I do talk with a number of my clients are older, and that is a big factor. Yeah. When we're thinking about what trees they should get, I mean, a number of them will be like, peter, should I buy this tree. And I was like, well, yeah, it's, it's nice. It's like, how long is it going to take to develop and is. Am I going to see it in my life? [00:59:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:14] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. And I'm like, no. Yeah. And they're like, okay, it sounds like a pass for me. And that's just, you know, they're good about that. [00:59:22] Speaker B: I feel like a big part of this is like your time horizon in terms of how showable or how, you know, developed. You want this tree. And then also, do you just appreciate the process or do you want like showable stuff? [00:59:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I think inevitably it's going to be. There's, there's going to be people on both ends and everybody in between. I, it's. I feel like you should have some trees that are show ready now. You, you have an idea of what kind of that finish tree is or a goal that you see that in your garden surrounded by, say, trees that have not reached that goal yet. It's kind of nice to see the end a little bit. There's people who want to see everything at the end. They say, that's what I want to see. I'm not interested in seeing this half developed tree. Yeah. And then there's people who just love seeing trees in development. I mean, I'm somewhere kind of in the middle. I want to see the finished tree, but I love seeing deciduous trees where the main branch is being grown and it's eight feet long. Right. You're seeing the process. Oh, we are. We're creating the next batch of really good trees. Hopefully some of them will be great. [01:00:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:34] Speaker A: Right. Because the trees that are ready now, maybe I had a small part in it, maybe I had a big part, I don't know. But most of the time it's okay. You're. You're kind of contin. You kind of continue what someone might have started already. Right. So. So I'm kind of in the middle where I, I try to have a combination of the two, but again, that's just a personal thing, right? Yeah. Some people, they just love looking at their collection. I mean, I have clients that love looking at their collection. They're not even that interested in working on the tree. They. But they love it. [01:01:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:10] Speaker A: They just love looking at the tree. [01:01:13] Speaker B: Like going to a bonsai show every day. But it's in. At your house. [01:01:18] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you're just like, wow. Yeah. And I get that. I get both, both, you know, and, and that's a, that's actually a newish thing I found for me, that I discovered this year maybe a little, well, last year, really, is that thinking about quality of trees a different way or a whole nother level of thinking about quality is that, yeah, there's going to be a lot of trees that we go through that will be really nice, and there's going to only be a handful that are going to be great. And there are. It's just like in other art forms. There are trees that are really good. I mean, really, really good. But when you see the great trees, you can always look at it. And the really, really good ones, you walk by it still, you're like, okay, I see it. It's nice. But you never get tired of seeing the great ones. Like, you can look at it all day, every day. Right. So, interestingly enough, that's. That's kind of a new gauge that. That I'm. I'm thinking about, especially when my clients ask me, do you think this is a worthwhile tree? Because some trees, even though, say they're not developed, they have the. The material itself is good enough that it could potentially be a great tree. Yeah. And that kind of, again, that then changes. Yeah. It might take 15 years, but it's going to be great. It's going to be that tree that you can look at every day and just love it. Or is it going to be the tree in your yard that you walk by every day that you just water and you just kind of walk by? You don't think twice about it. Right. For people who have paintings in their house, that was the same thing. Right. You can put paintings all over your house. You walk by, after a while, you forget they're even on the wall. But the really great ones, you always notice. Right. [01:03:22] Speaker B: So. [01:03:22] Speaker A: So again, that. That's just kind of modifies. Well, if you're trying to have a really great collection, do you have trees that are that fit. That fit that kind of. That. This new category, let's say. Yeah. Right. Of. Yeah. If I looked at this tree every day and I think it's great, that means something. Or is this something that's just. I kind of pass by? Right. Again, if your goal is to have just the best collection you can have, and you want to have that feeling all the time of, wow, I'm just looking at awesome stuff that can make you kind of then change how you gauge things. [01:04:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:04:04] Speaker A: And a real easy way to do that is you walk in your garden. You know, just don't look at anything. Walk in your garden. Just look down, Walk in Your garden. Look up. What are the trees you see first? Right? Those are your great trees. And the ones you see second or third, those not so great. Right. That might generally give you maybe great tier A. Okay. And then maybe. Oh yeah, I have that tree. I forgot, you know. Okay, Those are the ones you should probably move, right. Maybe. Regardless of whatever they are. Right? [01:04:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:04:39] Speaker A: Now again, that changes, right? If you, you know, as you learn more about bonsai. Because maybe now you notice something because you just didn't know something about it. Right. [01:04:49] Speaker B: So do you use a numeric system in your mind? Like for whatever reason in my life, I rate everything on a 1 to 10 scale. So freaking Jonas's 5 point scale, like messes with me because I'm like, okay, how do I feel today on a 1 to 10 scale? [01:05:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I see. [01:05:09] Speaker B: You know, I'm a, I'm an eight today. [01:05:11] Speaker A: You're eight? Yeah, everything. [01:05:12] Speaker B: How is it? Where do I rate this tree? It's a one to ten scale. And then Jonas only gives me five points and I have no idea what to do do it those five points. [01:05:20] Speaker A: I guess you can always be like 4.5. [01:05:24] Speaker B: You can't do that. [01:05:25] Speaker A: You can't do that. Yeah, yeah. It has to be whole numbers. [01:05:27] Speaker B: Jonas and Eric and Andrew Kwan. Yeah. Is. I don't know, maybe. [01:05:36] Speaker A: No, that's true. It's. It's tricky. I mean there, there's all sorts of mathematical stuff that, that I'm, I'm not good at. Right. That goes into thinking about things that way. I do always wonder that if when it's 1 through 10, how people view that. Right. And how they view 1 through 10. Because we've all gone to school, some form of school, right. Elementary school, middle school, high school, college. And when you get grades, it's always in the 50 plus 5 to 10 range, right. You either get an A, B, C, D, F. Right. Everything I think was it. Yeah. Everything below 60 is an F all the way to zero. Right. Isn't that pretty much the case? [01:06:31] Speaker B: I think so. Is 60 a D? [01:06:32] Speaker A: 60 is a D. I think D minus if you want to get 50. [01:06:35] Speaker B: Is a F. Right. [01:06:36] Speaker A: I think anything in the 50 is F and then below that is still an F. Yeah. There's no like G. So I always wonder the. Especially like in the expo when people are grading it. Right. The way I see it is, okay, the tree got in, so it automatically gets a one. Because the tree did get in. You know, it beat out other people. I mean not other people, other trees that wanted to get in, but didn't. So, you know, you automatically. So that's where I kind of started, right? From one, and then it goes up from there. But I. I do wonder when people grade a tree, they. They fall back onto what they know in school, which is now they're grading from 3, 4, and 5. Because 5 is an A. 4 is like a B minus C plus. And then a 3. Well, maybe a 3 is more like a C. And then a. You know, four is a B, and then a five is an A kind of thing. Right. And then anything lower, they just feel like, well, I'm just failing this tree. Yeah, right. It's like. Well, no, there's like a whole bunch of numbers there, right? There's one and two. [01:07:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:07:48] Speaker A: And they're meaningless now. [01:07:49] Speaker B: Yeah. I feel bad using 1 and 2. [01:07:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I think everybody does that unless you think of it as, you know, you get a 1 automatically because the tree's in. It's. It's good enough that I got into the show. That's great. Okay. And then now we get to use the whole scale. Right. So that. That's one of the things that I always worry about, are people looking at it. And. And a number of people I. I work with, they said, yeah, I grade things with 3, 4, and 5. I. I can't give it a 2 or 1 because I feel like I'm. I'm. I'm saying it's bad. [01:08:19] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [01:08:20] Speaker A: And it's like. No, you're not saying it's bad. It's like, it's already great because it got into the show. It's. This is one of the. The greatest good trees. [01:08:28] Speaker B: Right. [01:08:29] Speaker A: It's just. Okay, from. But in the whole room, is it a tree that just got into the show, or is it the tree that wins the show? Or. It's the greatest. Yeah, right. That. That kind of thing. That's the sphere. [01:08:40] Speaker B: I get it logically, but I still. [01:08:43] Speaker A: But still. Right? Yeah. 10. [01:08:45] Speaker B: I need the 10. [01:08:46] Speaker A: You need this at least. [01:08:47] Speaker B: Like, we could do 100 points, or we could do 10, but I'm good. I can't do it anymore. [01:08:52] Speaker A: You can do. Okay. [01:08:53] Speaker B: That's good stuff, though. [01:08:54] Speaker A: Oh, good. [01:08:55] Speaker B: Seriously good. So is this pricey stuff? [01:09:00] Speaker A: No, no, this is. I can't remember what it costs, but it's not super expensive. [01:09:06] Speaker B: Okay. [01:09:08] Speaker A: This bottle. [01:09:09] Speaker B: Do gangsters drink cognac? I feel like. [01:09:14] Speaker A: I think in some rap videos. Yeah. They will hold cognac and stuff like that. Nice. [01:09:18] Speaker B: I'm feeling gangster right now. [01:09:19] Speaker A: You're feeling gangster? I think this is a liter. This bottle. I think this one liter. I think it's a liter. This one liter bottle is like 60 bucks. Okay. People out there like, what are you drinking? It is Remy Martin 1738 Accord Royale. [01:09:40] Speaker B: That sounds gangster. [01:09:41] Speaker A: It does sound. Yeah, exactly. It's old. It's not actually from 17. That's just what it's called. Yeah, but. But yeah. Very, very good. Very good. I think Costco even sells it, too. Nice. [01:09:57] Speaker B: I think I'm gonna go use the restroom really quick. That's okay. I'm just gonna take this off first. [01:10:04] Speaker A: And I'm gonna record the bathroom. Oh, yeah, Yeah. I can't remember where I got it exactly. Yeah, the top one has really good. Yeah, it's like, very much but.