#38 Seth Nelson

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, what's going on? Thank you so much for tuning in to the Black Pondo podcast. Just a quick note before we jump into the show. Today's episode is brought to you by Austin Heitzman. Austin Heitzman is my favorite bonsai stand maker. He is an American bonsai stand and furniture maker in the United States based out of the Portland, Oregon area. Austin's stands are so high level, so high quality. He uses American woods. He is very sustainable when it comes to his wood selection. So you always see him on his Instagram stories. He seems to be chopping down trees. However, these are trees that would be thrown away, thrown out into the trash, and he gives them a new life, a new purpose, and creates beautiful art with them. His stands are so phenomenal. I think that we are very lucky to have him in the United States as a bonsai stand maker. The process is very simple in terms of working with him. He makes anything from more traditional type stands all the way to avant garde modern type stands and kind of anywhere in between. He's very easy to work with. Super friendly, nice guy, great communicator. With my last two stands, I just sent him an email to get started. We set up a time to talk, chatted about what my vision was. He gave me some suggestions, and I think he's very flexible. So if you prefer to make all the design choices or if you want him to do everything or anywhere in between there, I think he is definitely open to that. [00:01:51] Speaker B: Very, very easy to work with. [00:01:53] Speaker A: So we came up with a concept together. [00:01:56] Speaker B: We talked about the wood type that. [00:01:58] Speaker A: I wanted, and little while later, Stan shows up at my door, packed, perfectly exceeded expectations in every way possible. I'm so pumped on his work, and I think that you should be too. You can check him out on his instagram page @austinheitzman furniture, or he also has a website@austinheitzman furniture.com definitely hit him up. Thank you so much for listening and I hope that you enjoy this episode of the Black Pondo Podcast. [00:02:39] Speaker C: The black pondo podcast. The Black Pondo Podcast. Interesting. [00:02:49] Speaker B: I mean, to your point about bringing a tree inside and putting it under against a black or, excuse me, blank backdrop, I feel like that really does make a tree stand out and pop. And a lot of times you just see it on the bench and, oh, it's. It's nice, it looks great. But then you bring it in and you work on the tree and you put it against the blank backdrop and like, all of a sudden the tree just has that, wow, factor to it. [00:03:19] Speaker C: Yep, yep. [00:03:20] Speaker B: And it, it's really a thing. And I don't know why that is exactly, but, or what makes it so different. But it, it, it's different I think. [00:03:33] Speaker C: Just because, you know, you can actually focus on the details without like the, the distractions of all the surrounding noise. Right, but even, I know you said black backdrop on accident, but the difference between like having a tree on black versus white or gray or whatever, even that makes a, a difference in like the way a tree looks especially, you know, in a photo, because like the way light works. But yeah, anyway. [00:04:02] Speaker B: No, absolutely. What, what's your favorite backdrop color? Have you found one? [00:04:08] Speaker C: Yeah, generally, Generally black. Because I've noticed at least on my phone and like I'm, I'm not a good photographer, but white tends to like, it picks up the highlights too much and the greens get washed out with a white background, you know, these greens of the foliage get washed out and then the deadwood blends in too much with the white. But then like if you put a pine on a white backdrop, it kind of helps like see the bark. So having both is probably best, but you know, limited space and all that. Yeah, we had, we had both at ien and I would sometimes use one or the other. [00:04:50] Speaker B: That's really nice to have both in. In fact, I think that's a good point. Like, ideally if you had multiple colors and I wonder if I, I'm sure different types of trees look better on different colors of backdrops. I mean, you know, a deciduous tree and a black pine are just totally different things. They have different colors going on. [00:05:15] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:05:15] Speaker B: So I, I gotta think that there's a better color for both of them. [00:05:20] Speaker C: Yeah, I feel like when I've taken pictures of deciduous trees on black backdrops, they, I don't know, they. The contrast is too stark with the foliage and it has like, you know, I don't know if it causes too much shadow or something. And then if you put a deciduous tree that's like defoliated on a white backdrop, the bark blends in too much with the white. So. No, I don't know. Those are just things you got to figure out. But you know, you can get those like wedding pop up backdrops off Amazon now for like 100 bucks. So eventually I'm gonna have both for my space here. But I don't know when I'm taking all my pictures now that's. I'm using a pop up one and I use that at work. And you just have black there for now. [00:06:20] Speaker B: Yeah. So So I. I don't know why, but I've kind of always gone with like a gray, some shade of gray for my backdrops. And I found some backdrops on Amazon where it's actually. You can roll it down and just with one tug, it will auto roll back up really nice and slowly. And they're like really big. They're like, I don't know, 10 by 10, 8 by 8, something like that. [00:06:47] Speaker C: Oh, that's huge. I think the one I'm using must. It's not 10 by 10 wide, but I think it is 10ft high. It feels a little bit too narrow. If it was like another 2 or 3ft wider, it'd probably be better. But I, you know, it's trial and error a little bit for sure. [00:07:09] Speaker B: I just think it'd be cool to have a bunch of different colors. And actually I'm curious if. If like blue and purple would be a good backdrop. Like sometimes when you. [00:07:22] Speaker C: Yeah, in, in exhibition. Yeah, I was. Sorry I cut you off. But in exhibitions, you know, you always see like blue tablecloth and stuff like that. You don't see just white and black, white and black, white and black. Because it's. Yeah. I mean, different colors create different, like, atmospheres. Right. So for sure, yeah. That's something I mean, I might play with when I get some extra money. [00:07:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. It's like a very novel, nice to have, but not, not necessary kind of thing to have your backdrops. [00:07:57] Speaker C: But you know, the reality is like, as. As a professional now, the main way I can promote myself is posting photos. Right. So in a way it is like kind of an essential thing to have. And because, you know, you have to take good pictures to. Especially if you're trying to do online sales or just trying to do some kind of educational post or some kind of like, like photo essay. You know, you have to have good photos. So maybe. Yeah, maybe that's something I actually invest into. [00:08:28] Speaker B: Nice. Yeah. You know, it is interesting. Like in Japan sometimes they have like light. They have a tree against a light blue backdrop and it just looks like the sky on a nice day. [00:08:41] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:08:42] Speaker B: And those pictures often look so good to me. And I guess another thing that I think about is I'm into koi. And with koi, they always use a blue viewing bowl, they call it. So they use a blue viewing bowl. But then there's a few koi breeders that actually have these like, they're almost like a turquoise. It's like a emerald green to bluish color tanks. And the fish just look stunning with that as the backdrop. So it does make me wonder if playing around with some colors might be really cool and fun. And then also the Pacific Bonsai Expo, they. They almost had like a purpley color on their backdrop which I think looked. [00:09:29] Speaker C: Really good. [00:09:32] Speaker B: But depending on the way the light was. So like to me the backdrops look different from the first show to the second show. They look more purpley in the first show to my eye I think it was just like. Yeah, same material, just different lighting. It, it was total. Both of the buildings that they had them in. So the first one was at this place called the Bridge Yard and it was all natural lighting. It was like a ton of just giant windows and so it was a lot of natural lighting. The second place was like an old school auditorium type feel with a lot of non, non natural lighting. And they didn't look as purple to me. [00:10:16] Speaker C: They were like darker, more muted. Yeah. Yes. Well, yeah, I guess see that's the thing about like good photographers, right. They know how to control the light to make the pictures look like peak. And I guess, you know, when we do bonsai exhibitions like that's. That's something that it's hard to control when you're renting a space. Right. But. [00:10:44] Speaker B: For sure, I feel like within the broad category of bonsai, there's so many different things you could get into. Like these little subcategories, you know, there's like table making, display stuff shohin giant sized trees. Photography is like a little subcategory that like you could get really into. And it would be very beneficial as a bonsai professional. But it's like it's a whole nother galaxy of information to learn. [00:11:17] Speaker C: So it's kind of what's so fun about bonsai, right, is like you can. There's so many rabbit holes just to dive deep into and there's always something new to improve what you're doing in some way. And I mean that's. I think that's what attracts so many people to bonsai because it's all. There's always something there's you don't like. There's a very high ceiling I guess is what I'm trying to say. [00:11:43] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. No, I think it's really fun that there are so many subcategories that you could get into. [00:11:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:11:51] Speaker B: Do you feel like out of any of the. The kind of categories or subcategories within bonsai, are there any that you are really into yourself or any that you want to get into that maybe you feel like you haven't got that much experience in or chance to get experience in. [00:12:12] Speaker C: That's easier to answer because I feel like I, I haven't really focused too much on pottery for the most part because I couldn't afford high end pottery. But now I kind of feel like I, I need to learn. Learn to identify pots a lot more efficiently, you know, because if I see a stamp, there's some I can recognize, right? And there's some clay bodies and glazes that are easy to identify. But then there's so many different potters out there and I have to look it up on usually use Michael Ryan Bell's thing that's still active, but it just, it takes so much time going through and just trying to match the kanji and then pot pairing, you know, I just actually wrote a post kind of about that today. But pot pairing really changes the way a tree feels too. So that's like, it's one of those subcategories that I've never really spent too much time thinking about because at Ichan the way we would repot is, you know, Tanaka San Myoe kata would go to each tree and put a toothpick in it. Like with each tree he wanted to repot and the trees that he wanted to change the pot, he would break the top of the toothpick off and he would always select the pot. So, you know, of course could ask like, why this pot, why that pot? But usually like all I really pay attention, pen pay attention to when selecting pots is like, is it a good shape and size? And you know, there's so much more to it than that that I feel like maybe I've kind of overlooked it for a long time and display as a whole because I'm not like crazy about exhibitions and that sort of thing. I tend to overlook, you know, how display elements affect the atmosphere of a piece on display. But, you know, that's also because my main interest is like working on bonsai and like making trees and just literally just doing the work. It's easy for me to just kind of blow past, you know, display elements. [00:14:38] Speaker B: I see that. I wonder if, if the LLMs or like a ChatGPT or Google Gemini will ever be good enough to let us take a picture of pots and then it can reference Michael Ryan Bell's. [00:14:55] Speaker C: You know, I haven't tried, but I bet you it can because I use it quite a bit like my, I'm very, the way I speak is very casual and when I, I use chat GPT all the time to respond to emails Just because, like, I want to make sure that I'm coming across professionally and politely because I know my texting tone can be like, very stern and not at all the same as how I talk. And Yeah, I mean, I've come up with some good stuff and made business plans using Chat GPT and they're all pretty solid, you know, Like, I don't think AI is good for like creating, but I think it's good for referencing and just like collecting data and, you know, gathering thoughts coherently. So I. Because it recognizes images, because it can search websites. I bet you it. Yeah, I'm going to try that. That's a good idea. I never even thought about that until this moment. [00:16:03] Speaker B: Well, I feel like AI or these LLMs are probably really good for several things within bonsai, but it's hard, hard to think about all the things that they could be good for. Yeah, one thing, one thing it helped me with recently was just understanding what the norm is for spraying trees. So fungicides and pesticides. [00:16:27] Speaker C: Yep. [00:16:28] Speaker B: Like, I really like that because I'm. You can just quickly ask like, okay, can you tank mix these two chemicals or. [00:16:35] Speaker C: Yep. [00:16:36] Speaker B: Should, should I rotate on a monthly basis or should I spray the same chemicals for like a year straight and then rotate the next year? Or any questions that you have like that, you can just ask Chat GPT and it will give you kind of like the horticultural standard. [00:16:55] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:16:55] Speaker B: So it's all knowledge. That is. Go ahead. [00:16:59] Speaker C: Oh, no, I, I, Go ahead. I, I have a problem interrupting sometimes, so. [00:17:05] Speaker B: No, no, you're good. And I think there's a slight delay on here. [00:17:10] Speaker C: Oh, did we, did we talk about that when me and Michael were on here together? [00:17:17] Speaker B: I can't remember. [00:17:18] Speaker C: Okay, so I've been, I've been using chat GPT like that for a while now to figure out spray combinations and like rotations and that work well together because you know, pesticides, fungicides, you know, mitochondries, all of them different things, they have different modes of action. Right. So if you say spray AVID three times in a row, the generations of mites that are exposed to that AVID three times, they become resistant. Right. So you have to switch to a chemical that has a different type of mode of action. And I can tell you, like, oh, this, this is a type 2, this is a type 3, whatever. And then it can give you a good like rotation that is reliable and not going to build up resistances. And I mean, even today I, I was using that to figure out what I'm gonna spray for Fungicide, now that we're coming into spring and, you know, like, just when buds are beginning to break is when you really want to treat things. And when, like, yeah, pines, Pines, when you start to see the candles are swelling into, the needles are starting to form, but they haven't pushed, you know, that's a good time. Junipers, when the tips are starting to grow, you want to spray maples and deciduous before, before the leaves really break out. And it can also tell you what, what chemicals are safe on, like, tender foliage. So, like, for example, in spring when everything. You may spray the first time before leaf break, but, you know, 14 days later, those leaves have opened up. Right. So you have to use a chemical that's going to be safe on that tender foliage. And yeah, I mean, it's super useful because otherwise you. God, you need like, intense chemical and pesticide training. Right. And. And you have to be like, keep up to date with, like, new products on the market. So. So that's a game changer, in my opinion. And also, you know, even if you don't trust AI, you can just verify that information that it feeds you too. And these days it also, yeah. It gives you sources and references for each, you know, recommendation. So it's easy to verify, too. [00:19:39] Speaker B: Very nice. So have you, like, off the top of your head and sorry for putting you on the spot here, but in regards to tender foliage that's just starting to leaf out, do you have maybe a couple fungicides that you like for this time of year? [00:19:58] Speaker C: I haven't experienced this yet. So next week I'm going to start spraying Decidrus. Tomorrow I'm spraying conifers. So what I'm going to do for deciduous, I'm going to spray Moncozeb the first time, and 14 days later, I'm going to follow up with propiconazole, I think it's called. I can't remember. It's a strange name, but propiconazole or whatever is, it's a systemic fungicide and it's a fertilome product. So it's like 16, 17 bucks. It's not expensive to get and it's pretty accessible. Both of those chemicals are supposed to be safe as fungicidal sprays. And then there was a third to mix into the rotation. If it's like a wet spring, I. I don't remember what that third one was off the top of my head. I guess. You know, the other thing you can do is like a root drench. Right. When I was working in the flower Nursery. We, we did root drenches on pretty frequently. I mean, it protects the foliage and flowers on, on that stuff. Right. But on bonsai, I figure a root drench would be probably the safest way to apply fungicide to tender growth. But then there's a delay on the uptake. Right. So if you're, if you're like having an immediate fungicide problem or fungus problem, you probably don't want to do a root drench. But you know, in spring when it's just preventative treatment, retrench is probably fine. [00:21:36] Speaker B: Gotcha. I've, I've actually never done a root drench, although I've heard they can be beneficial. I've always just sprayed the, the entire tree and the pot. Yeah, the, the bench, it. Yeah. [00:21:55] Speaker C: Well, I mean, it's the same as applying fertilizer, like liquid fertilizer. You know, the, the tree takes it up through the roots and you know, it has to move through the whole tree. So that takes time. It's not just like an immediate activation. Right. Like any kind of spray is on contact. So there's, there's benefits to both, but situationally so I, to be honest, 9 out of 10 times, probably even like 19 out of 20 times, I, I spray. So. So just throw an idea out there. [00:22:33] Speaker B: Nice. At Ian, Approximately how often did you guys spray? Was it like. [00:22:41] Speaker C: It was not. No, it was not frequent enough in my opinion. But you know, we had hundreds of trees to do and we would use like a hundred gallons of mix and. Yeah, I mean it could have even been more. Yeah. So we were using like a gas powered orchard sprayer to spray everything, but, you know, we would have mite problems and we get fungus problems. But nothing that was ever like untreatable. You know, we just were not very proactive. We were reactive. And I think it's hard, you know, when you have a collection of so many trees. It's hard to be proactive in like pest management. You're, you're just so busy all the time that like, you really only have time to be reactive. But I think probably we sprayed like four or five times a year max. But like, what I would think is ideal, you know, and I would think what is ideal is a insecticide fungicide in the spring and you know, one application and then a second application 14 days later. And then in like, say like early summer, especially if it's rainy season, you don't want to do the same thing again. Or you know, if you see any kind of passes when you have to Start it up again. But pretty much you want to have two cycles every season. Like two cycles of insecticide and two cycles of fungicide every season I think would be ideal. But you know that, that depends on like what kind of issues you're having. If you're not having pest problems and disease problems, you don't need to spray that often. But also if you're caring for like a high end collection. Yeah, you, you have to take care, right? [00:24:45] Speaker B: Totally. Is there a reason you said 14 day. [00:24:50] Speaker C: In between? That's just a general recommendation on like all pesticide labels. Like for example with mites, if you have a bad infestation, you can do a second application 7 days to like knock down the population. But if you just are preventively doing things, the General recommendation is 14 days. Gotcha. So you, you have, there's a window there. But your, the real reason I guess is especially with insects is you know, they can be laying eggs and those eggs could be hatching within that window. So you want to knock them down. And you know, that's Another thing about ChatGPT is like talking about the modes of action and especially with mites, a lot of mites kill on contact and they'll kill the babies, which are called nymphs. So you can kill nymphs and adults, but not eggs with certain mitocides. So you have to, you have to know in your rotation which product is doing what. So like I, I can't remember my rotation off the top of my head but you know, I use something that kills adults on contact, use something that kills adults, nymphs and eggs and then you know, it can follow up again a third time if you have to. But usually when you apply that second one, you, you eliminate all the eggs and you eliminate everything else that's mobile. So you're pretty, pretty set. [00:26:33] Speaker B: Gotcha. Spider mites are a problem here unfortunately everywhere. Yeah. Okay. And Flora mite has really helped my collection with that. I think that's one of the stronger mitocides in particular. But that's been the spray that I've liked. [00:26:55] Speaker C: I think I have, I think I'm using floor my Avid and it might be called for bid. I think forbid might be the one that I added in. But Forbid's expensive. It's like 200 bucks for a 8 ounce bottle or 16 ounce bottle. So it's pretty pricey. But you know again when you're taking care of high end trees, you got to do what you got to do. [00:27:22] Speaker B: So most definitely. [00:27:23] Speaker C: And so Flora might is pretty good. With as an oversight as like one that kills eggs. But it's not the most effective overside. That's why, that's why I had to add in the forbid. Because it was the it where it was a different mode of action from Avid and Flora Mite. And it was also the most effective oversight that I could find on the market. So, you know, I can't, I can't figure this stuff out without ChatGPT. Like you'd have to be scouring the Internet for hours and hours and hours to do this kind of research, you know, like just Bing, you know, you get it. [00:28:11] Speaker B: Yeah, well, awesome point on that. On forbid. Maybe I have to look into that. I'll. I'll ask ChatGPT some more questions about that. [00:28:21] Speaker C: Yeah, I might be. I might be getting the name wrong. So I should probably verify that before I start making recommendations. But I think it's forbid that I started using Forbid. Nice. I'm actually going to go to Chat GPT right now on my computer while I'm sitting here and you know, I can verify that while we talk about anything else. [00:28:51] Speaker B: Cool. Dude, you're looking pretty lean, man. [00:28:56] Speaker C: I haven't been working out, but I mean, I just try to eat right. [00:29:00] Speaker B: I mean good in a good way. Like skinny. [00:29:03] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I bulked up to 195 and I've kind of been hanging out around 182 right now. And you know, that's like up and down £5 any given day. But yeah, it's like a pretty comfortable, easy weight for me to maintain. But I, I need to get back into the gym. I'm just need to come up. I gotta come up with a lot of extra money to start doing stuff, but I really want to get a home gym and put that out there. And because I. I don't know, going into American gyms start to feel like the smallest guy in there, but in Japan I felt like the biggest guy in there. So it's a, it's an ego killer. Okay. Forbid is correct. Justified that. [00:29:56] Speaker B: Okay. Forbid. Forbid. [00:29:59] Speaker C: There's also hexagon, but I think hexagon is really expensive and hard to find. [00:30:06] Speaker B: Okay. [00:30:07] Speaker C: Yeah. So avid Forbid floor mite. That's a good rotation. [00:30:12] Speaker B: Nice. It seems like to me with spider mites, another key to being successful is like actually checking the types of trees that get that are susceptible to spider mites on a regular basis. So for me it's like Kishu juniper. For whatever reason, that's the one that they go to first. [00:30:33] Speaker C: Yeah, they love it. [00:30:34] Speaker B: Like, I literally have white paper under protection in my garden, so I could take a piece and, like, tap and see if they're spider mites. Although I actually just got. Also I just got a 20 power loop that I have in my bonsai garden so that I can, like, see better. I'm not sure if I haven't actually used it yet, but that was an idea that I was thinking about. I don't know if that will actually. [00:30:59] Speaker C: Work or not, but it does. We. When I say we, I mean, I. I told you I'm working for, like, a big patron of mine, right. And I have a co worker named John, John Walker. He had a. Like a digital microscope that he got off Amazon. I think it was, like, 80 bucks. But you can zoom in and actually see the mites moving. And I mean. Yeah, that's super important because when you knock it onto the white paper, if you have an infestation, you'll see they're active. But if it's, you know, just a mild mic problem, you won't really see if they're moving around because they're so small. Like, you'll see they're there, but you may think they're actually dead or immobile, but they're just not moving, you know, but once you put that underneath a loop or a microscope, you can actually see their legs crawling around. And. Yeah, I had a. I had a. My problem last year that I put some effort into solving. So totally, totally worth the investment. [00:32:09] Speaker B: Dude, that's. That's a good idea. I like that microscope idea. [00:32:13] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:32:14] Speaker B: Better than my loop. Yeah, but. [00:32:16] Speaker C: But the loop is good. I mean. Yeah, the loop works. When I was in the flower nursery, that's what my. My manager, like the. The head grower, she used the loop. So I. I know it works. That's like the classic way to do it. [00:32:31] Speaker B: Solid. [00:32:32] Speaker C: Hey, give me two seconds to run to the bathroom. Yeah, sorry. [00:32:35] Speaker B: I'm gonna go two. I'm gonna go two. [00:32:37] Speaker C: Okay. I guess we should say as a disclaimer. [00:32:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:42] Speaker C: To anybody listening, that they should do their own research and take appropriate precautionary measure before using any chemicals. And, you know, read your labels and all that because, yeah, all this stuff is pretty toxic, you know, 100%. Yeah. Super toxic. Really? Yes. [00:33:03] Speaker B: Super top toxic. Not my favorite subject. I mean, I would love to not spray. And I know that, like, Ryan Neal, you know, he's working towards trying to not have to spray, and I think that he's found success in that avenue. [00:33:25] Speaker C: But maybe it's a. It's a great aim to have, but I don't know how realistic it is. So I, I just, you know, go balls to the wall and just use the strongest stuff and most effective stuff and, you know, get on with it. [00:33:41] Speaker B: Yes. [00:33:42] Speaker C: Which, yeah, I don't know if that's, you know, good or bad, but like, you know, also, I don't want to sound like I'm thinking only about money, but like, it is. You have to protect your crop. Right. Like, it's just the reality. Every. All the trees are assets and if you let them get damaged because you're not willing to spray and you're a professional, well, you're gonna get a lose money. So. [00:34:05] Speaker B: Yep. [00:34:06] Speaker C: The same in every, Every agricultural industry does the same thing. And even, God, all the food is poison, man. Even our organic produce is sprayed. It's just sprayed with chemicals that are labeled safe to use or like safe organic sides or whatever. But it's all toxic crap, you know, everything is poison. [00:34:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's. That's a big rabbit hole right there. And. Yeah, I don't know. [00:34:36] Speaker C: God. I bought some oranges and the oranges were coated in wax and they're just. Man, it drives me crazy. Just want to eat like normal food and it's impossible. [00:34:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. It's funny, I remember driving by in the Central Valley, they grow a bunch of citrus and sometimes like, you drive by them and the oranges are just completely white and it's. It's because they're just spraying, spraying the crap out of them. So delicious. Pretty gross. [00:35:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:35:18] Speaker B: But yeah, anyways, I don't know. I don't like to go too down, too far down that rabbit hole because I just don't know if I like where it goes. [00:35:29] Speaker C: Yeah, there's. There's no way to avoid it, so you just have to, you know, pick. Pick what you're comfortable with. And, you know, I'd rather eat an orange than a, I don't know, a candy bar. Right. [00:35:40] Speaker B: Most definitely. Most definitely. Yeah. I think still a better outcome with the, with the orange for sure. And like, do your best. You know, I still think organic, that's all you can do better than non organic most of the time, you know, and like, oranges maybe doesn't matter so much because it has a thicker shell on the outside or peel, but still. I don't know. [00:36:07] Speaker C: I don't like the idea of it, but. Yeah, I. I get what you mean. Yeah. [00:36:11] Speaker B: Dude, I just put in a bunch of fruit trees at my house, which I'm really excited. Oh yeah, I got. I don't know if you're into this, but I'm really into persimmons. And so I got a few different varieties of persimmon, which I'm really stoked on. And I'm not going to be spraying those and I'm going to be using all organic fertilizer on them. [00:36:31] Speaker C: And just Japanese varieties. [00:36:34] Speaker B: I did, yes. So I got like the standard Fuyu variety, which is like a basic orange one. But then there's a couple other ones that have Japanese names. I don't know what the Japanese names are for them, but the American names are Coffee cake and Chocolate and they actually have a brown flesh to them and they pollenize with each other. So I got Chocolate and Coffee Cake and they're supposed to be, according to chat gbt, the number, I think number one and two, tastiest persimmons. So we'll see. I'll send you some. [00:37:11] Speaker C: There is. You know, when I was thinking about living in Florida permanently, part of my like long term goal is to build a fruit forest on my property. But like, you know, I grew up with mango trees and I wanted to get all the different varieties because there's so many good mango varieties out there. Like I had coconut cream fruit punch, juicy peach, all that crap. And they all taste like their name too, which is like amazing. But being here in Alabama now, like, I'll never have a mango tree. But yeah, I could probably. I can do Prunus species, you know, stone fruit species here because I see them just everywhere. So eventually, you know, I'll. I'll do the same. Yeah, yeah. I would love to have like some fruit fruit trees on the property. Yeah, different stuff. I would love that. [00:38:04] Speaker B: Dude, I'm all about it. Yeah, for sure. I also have been grafting my fruit trees with, with different varieties just for fun. And. [00:38:18] Speaker C: Out. One sec. [00:38:21] Speaker B: There we go. Unfortunately, the audio cable for my mic is a little bit touchy and like if you just bump it, it'll come. [00:38:30] Speaker C: Out, which is not good. [00:38:31] Speaker B: But yeah. Anyways. [00:38:35] Speaker C: Hey, I know. I noticed something happened, but. Ah. [00:38:40] Speaker B: So Seth, I would love to know more about your current. What's up with that? Hopefully that. [00:38:51] Speaker C: Yeah, I lost you. I'm sorry. [00:38:52] Speaker B: So sorry. Can you hear me now? Can you hear me? [00:38:58] Speaker C: I can hear you now, but the last thing I heard you said I can hear. I heard you say you wanted to know about my current and then the rest cut. [00:39:11] Speaker B: Yes. Okay. So I would love to know more about your current setup and your current situation. However I want to be respectful and I. I don't want to, you know, pry too much. And I. I know that your patron is very, you know, he. He doesn't want his stuff probably out there in the opening open, which I completely understand. So I want to be very respectful. But I'm just curious what you can tell us. [00:39:39] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I. I'm. I mean, cat's out of the bag, so I can. I can talk pretty freely about it. So, you know, he's a wealthy business owner that loves bonsai and he is really good friends with Doug Paul. So they have a lot of fun going to Japan, buying trees and importing them through the Kennet collection. And last spring I. I did a tour through Tennessee, Atlanta and then mid tour, I got a. A call saying that, well, Matt Awinga con connected me and told me that my boss wanted my current boss. I don't know if I should say his name just because. Yeah, yeah. But anyways, um, he wanted me to come through for. He wanted to hire me for five days. And, you know, I figured I'd be coming here just to wire some stuff and, you know, run off, because that's the typical thing people do. But during that time when I first came here, you know, he sat me down and told me, like, yeah, I don't really see much value in having you wire a few trees and then you leave. So what I want you to do is work with John here for a week and see how you like it and see how things. How we do things. And then we'll sit down and talk, you know, in a few days and see where this goes, if it's a good fit, blah, blah, blah. And you know, I. At the time, I didn't really know what the intention was other than I was thinking maybe it would turn into like, you know, seasonal maintenance kind of situation. But yeah, after a couple days of being there, he sat me down and said, I want to make you a job offer. So, you know, I have a salary and, you know, a lot of other benefits that come from working for him. You know, like I'm living in a house and stuff that is sponsored by him, so he's really moving mountains for me and. Yeah, I mean, yeah, wonderful, wonderful guy. That's why I say he's my patron, not. Not my customer, because customer implies like I'm doing something for him, but really it's the other way around. And yeah, he's just been great to me. He has fantastic trees and our bonsai philosophies kind of line up really well. So it was a, it was really a good fit right off the bat. And he's not just a collector. He started field growing. I, I think I mentioned this last time. He was field growing junipers and trident maples and stuff like 30 years ago and still have some of those trees in his collection. Not everything. You know, he's upgraded quite a bit. So he's got like, probably a higher level of bonsai growing talent and skill than like you're, I mean not way more than the average person, but you know, probably like top 80, 85, 90% of hobbyists. Right. You know, he's been growing like really fat shimpaku that like I, I'm sure there's other growers that have done it too. But you know, he produced a ton of them and they're still hanging around. So it's not like he just did it and saw them one time and they died. You know, like he's kept them alive for 30 years. And those are primarily Kishu. So you know, talking about spider mites, like, I, I know how they love Kishu and he did a lot of trident maples. But you know, I think 30 years ago people really weren't as concerned about leaf quality as they are now. And I think that was like a lack of exposure, lack of education on like developing high end material. So you know, those, those large leaf varieties, they do create like really massive chunks quickly in comparison to a small leaf variety. But you'll, you'll never get the same type of ramification like we've talked about. And he's main, he's got a pyracantha shohin. What is that? Like at least an 8 inch trunk that I thought he bought from Japan, but he grew himself and like he's made some nice stuff. So yeah, it really is like, you know, I'm living the American dream for, for real. And on top of that, he's, you know, helping me run an independent business of not run it. But you know, he's allowed me the freedom to create my own independent business while working for him. And part of that is, you know, we, we went up to the Kennett collection and we bought a ton of trees and those trees are now at my house. And I'm, you know, I just brought them home yesterday because we, we've just been busy repotting and wiring and everything else. So we had a chance to move trees from his place to my place because I, I had my benches set up in December ready for the trees to come here. But then I went to Japan and I came back in January. And then, you know, we start wiring and protecting from the cold and all these kind of things. Just. Just finally got an opportunity to move the trees. And, you know, all those trees, I'll be working them and preparing them and mostly for sale because I'm at a point in my professional career where I need to generate money. And. Yeah, I really don't like talking about bonsai as, like a. A career path. Right. Because I feel like bonsai is supposed to be practiced as an art, but it just is the reality of being a professional. Like, you have to think about. I have to think about what I'm doing as something that's actually going to be financially sustainable to make a life for me and my. And just allow me to keep doing what I'm doing. Right. There's. There's not a chance. Yeah, there's no chance I'm gonna get a job doing anything else. Like, there's. Yeah, I can't even think about that happening because it's just not good. [00:46:19] Speaker B: If you did, that would be a big loss to the American bonsai community. So please don't get. [00:46:25] Speaker C: Travesty. Yeah, it's a travesty, man. [00:46:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Dude, I have, like a thousand questions I want to ask you. [00:46:32] Speaker C: That's. I've got. Yeah, I. I got all the time. As long as you do, I have no time constraint. So we can run through as much as you want. [00:46:40] Speaker B: All right. Three days. [00:46:43] Speaker C: Three days. [00:46:43] Speaker B: Just joking. So I'm curious, circling back a little bit to your patron. We'll call him your patron. I think that's a good definition. I like that definition. It sounds. It feels right to me. So would you tell me a little bit about his collection? What does that look like? [00:47:07] Speaker C: We've, like, how many. [00:47:09] Speaker B: What kinds? Are they mostly imported from Japan or mostly grown from here? And is it. Is it like 50? 50? [00:47:18] Speaker C: You know, I would say it's 7030. Maybe. Maybe 75. 25 Japanese and stuff. He's grown himself. Or. Or when I say grown himself, there's some trees that he bought as stock from Brussels, you know, like 10, 15, 20 years ago, and that he's developed. But, yeah, the majority is Japanese imports. He's gone to Japan several times to buy himself and import through the Kenneth Collection and also buying from the Kenneth Collection directly, you know, because they're just good friends. [00:48:00] Speaker B: How many total trees would you say? [00:48:03] Speaker C: Probably between 300, 350 trees. Yeah, it's a. It's a substantial collection. And, you know, the Thing is, the reason why he actually offered me a position is like, it's just there's too many large trees for John to take care of himself. And who's John? John's my co worker. John's been working with our patron. I feel weird with anonymity, however you say that word, but John's been working with him for like 10 years. John's like 40, 41, something like that. Good age, but too many trees for one person. And my patron is in his early 80s, so you know, it's not really sensible for him to be picking up big trees anymore. Even though he has like some ridiculously sized trees. And you know, his wife also loves bonsai. So they, they just have a great bonsai collection. They both just love bonsai and love bonsai pots and super generous, great people. Let me think, like the collection if you worked. If I worked by myself non stop, like as hard as I could all year, I think I could barely manage it, doing everything kind of half assed. I don't think the size and quality of the trees, I think even for me just by myself, things would definitely lag. It wouldn't be like, you know, perfect. So it probably, if I was doing like an 80% job, I could keep up. But you know, 80% is not good enough. So that's why I was brought on and full time. [00:50:14] Speaker B: What kind of goals does he have with bonsai? And I'm sorry, I know, it's just. [00:50:21] Speaker C: Yeah, no, it's just his hobby. Like he runs a business, a very large business that he started. Like he's the founder and owner and he still works every day pretty much. And basically in between phone calls and zoom meetings and everything else, he's hanging out with me and John working on trees. And that's all it is for him. It's not, it's never been like a. Yeah, it's never been a business for him up until he's told me up until the last like say five years, something like that. He mostly had shohin and chuhin and then he. How do I say it? There's a botanical garden locally here that they donated a bunch of money to to create a bonsai pavilion. And you know, once they did that, he started buying bigger trees to put there that, you know, they're big enough that you can't just grab it and walk out. So that's when the big trees came and that's when, you know, the work is pretty much. It's too much for just John by himself. And definitely, you know, my My boss shouldn't be picking those trees up for sure. He's in. Really? Yeah. [00:51:42] Speaker B: Gotcha. [00:51:44] Speaker C: And species wise. Sorry, Species wise, I know you asked, so I just wanted to spit it out. You know, there's a lot of black pine Shinpaku, like different. Different varieties of shinpaku from Japan, you know, like, you know, of course Kishu and Itoigawa. But then I know there's one Hokkaido Shinpaku, which is just like a more coarser natural leaf. It's Yamadori tree. Right. So you get the natural leaf instead of a grafted Utoigawa. You know, he loves horn beams. He loves quince. He loves trident maple, Japanese maple. He loves his Japanese species, like, over everything. So I haven't. I still haven't gotten a chance to explore working with like, native Yamadori much other than the times that I've been in California and even out there I didn't get to do a whole lot, you know, but that's still an avenue that I want to explore when it becomes feasible for me to like, invest into Yamadori. [00:52:47] Speaker B: Fantastic. John. [00:52:52] Speaker A: Is he. [00:52:54] Speaker B: On Instagram? [00:52:56] Speaker C: He is. A couple days ago I shared his post. He's walking tree Bonsai, same as John Walker. And he's got an ebay store that he. He primarily sells like seedling in pre bonsai, but he's been growing some like, massive nabari charted maples. And that's what I shared the other day. He's a really great grower. He just shuts up and doesn't really promote himself at all. Like, I've had to harass him to start using hashtags on Instagram. So. Yeah, he just. He doesn't care about promoting himself, that's all. [00:53:37] Speaker B: Yeah, his page looks really cool. A lot of good stuff on there. Yeah. [00:53:43] Speaker C: Yeah, he knows what he's doing. He just, you know, hangs out in here in Alabama and keeps themselves while he's working on all these great trees and growing good stuff himself and no one really knows him. [00:53:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Did he do an apprenticeship or where. Do you know where he studied Bontai or. Just picked it up over the years. [00:54:05] Speaker C: He just picked it up and then. So he met my boss in one of the local clubs like 10 years ago, something like that. And my boss was doing a. Like a study group and John was the only one that like, hung around and actually like, committed to it, you know, and progressed. And that's how he's learned bonsai, primarily. He's learned from my boss, actually. Like, he's. No. No apprenticeship or anything. Like that. I know he's taken workshops and stuff with different pros over the years, but no, like formal. No formal bonsai training. [00:54:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Wow. Well, his work looks clean and there's a lot of nice trees on his Instagram page. Yeah, I assume probably a lot of those are. Are your. Both of your patron. But yeah, it looks good. [00:55:04] Speaker C: Yeah, he's a good grower. The stuff that he's got, he's got like a jungle nursery at his house and it's just like, you know, you pick up one Trident Maple and I, I'll, I'll be honest, I've been guilty of this. When I go and look at his stuff, I'll see like, you know, something like a 2 inch trunk. It looks a little bit straight, but then he brings it in like a couple weeks later and he's got it bare rooted. Is this pancake nabari? It's. Yeah, I'm pretty impressed. [00:55:34] Speaker B: Solid. That's awesome. [00:55:37] Speaker C: Very cool. Sweet. [00:55:42] Speaker B: So and then in terms of your work schedule, what does that look like? [00:55:49] Speaker C: Pretty much seven days a week, but on the weekends we just go in like tomorrow I'm gonna go in. Tomorrow is Saturday. For people listening, right? Because it's whatever, I'm gonna go in and I'm gonna water and then I'm gonna spray and then I'm gonna come home. But you know, Monday through Friday, regular working full time job hours, like regular salary hours. And yeah, the weekends we, John and I rotate who waters or if, you know, if he's teaching a workshop or something like that, I'll water. Water for him. [00:56:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:30] Speaker C: And yeah, it's a good beneficial situation for both of us that I'm here now. Like, it gives him more time to work on his own material because I can, you know, work weekend. When I say work the weekend, right, Just go there, water for an hour or two and come home. So it's not hard, but it's still, it still takes time. He's got a ton of work himself. He runs an ebay store, so he's, he's a workaholic. Gotcha. [00:57:01] Speaker B: Gotcha. How's it work in terms of deciding on the design of trees? Is that something that you and your patron collaborate on or does he say. [00:57:14] Speaker C: Hey, I think for the most part he does trust me. But you know, if I want to restyle something, I always ask just because I feel like it's a polite thing to do because I'm not the owner of the tree. So if I want to dramatically change something, I always like talk with him. And try to explain myself and, you know, make my point and just explain my vision so he can see that I'm not just winging it, you know, but if it's just, you know, what I feel is a regular styling and just do what I do and if he doesn't like it, he'll tell me. But so far, so good. Yeah, I mean, there's been a couple of times that he told me, like, I put a tree into a pot he didn't like. But that's, that's about the, the worst. But, you know, that's not a big deal. That's just. I mean, people have different tastes for sure. [00:58:12] Speaker B: Is he kind of always buying trees and do you help him with that or is it. Is it. [00:58:21] Speaker C: That's kind of. But not really because he's, he's looking for trees that he doesn't have already. Like, for example, he has a lot of shohin quints, so he's looking for large quints now. And. Yeah, I, I helped source two trees from IEN that'll get imported later this year, but then they'll be in quarantine for two years before they can be released. So there's, there's that, but you know, those purchases are high value purchases, so they don't happen on, like a regular basis, but when they do, they're great trees. [00:59:12] Speaker B: Fantastic. That's great, man. Sounds like a, a good gig you got. I'm really stoked for you. [00:59:19] Speaker C: It's a dream come true, man. Like, I. Yeah, I never imagined falling into this position, like one year out of my apprenticeship. It's. Yeah, it's really more than I could ever hope for. [00:59:33] Speaker B: That's great. And then so. And apologize if, if this is a sensitive subject, as I'm sure you miss them very heavily. But how's the plan with the famous. [00:59:48] Speaker C: Okay, so now is a great time to be asking because just a couple days ago, without explaining the whole process because it's lengthy, the first form of the paperwork to get my wife her residence residency. The first, the first paper just got approved and it's moving through the system. Finally, after one year of it not moving at all. [01:00:19] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [01:00:20] Speaker C: So there's progress being made now, which is awesome. But, you know, this is just the, the first form and there's more forms to fill out and wait on. But, you know, speaking of my immigration lawyer, that's the slowest form. So it feels like, you know, we're made the biggest. We're over the biggest hurdle. So I'm feeling a lot Better about it than I was, you know, two weeks ago. But yeah, it's still. Still a bunch of waiting, you know, that's another thing. I've got to. Got to make money so I can go see them. Yeah, I just. If I had a endless amount of money, I swear I'd be doing great things. But. Yeah, I mean, my only option to be with them is to. For me to go to Japan. So I'm. I'm hoping that next month I can for at least. At least 10 days, but we'll see if it's financially possible. Yeah, because it's expensive just to jump back and forth. And if I can't go next month, I'm definitely going in May because my wedding anniversary is in May and so is my son's birthday. So it's his first birthday and there's no way I can not be there, you know, for sure. It's tough. It's really tough. [01:01:44] Speaker B: Damn, man, I'm sorry that. That is so tough. It. I wish it didn't have to be. And it seems like it shouldn't. Yeah, it seems like they should just. [01:01:53] Speaker C: Oh, it shouldn't be. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's a whole separate issue and it's a touchy subject for a lot of people, especially right now, but for sure, yeah, you know, it's a pain in the ass, but you just gotta do what you gotta do. And, you know, I try to keep optimistic about it because I. I know if that. If I don't, I'll just get, like, truly depressed. So, you know, try to see the silver lining. And, you know, it's a tough time now, but eventually it's all gonna end and like, good times are gonna all the way. [01:02:32] Speaker B: Absolutely, man. Absolutely. And I'm so sorry. In my ignorance, I was just like, oh, like, she can just come over. [01:02:40] Speaker C: No, no, it's not. I didn't even think about. [01:02:42] Speaker B: It's not that kind of thing. [01:02:45] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, that's a whole. It's a whole thing and it's a touchy thing right now. So. [01:02:51] Speaker B: Yes. [01:02:52] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, in hindsight, I wish I would have started this process while I was an apprentice because probably by the time I was finished, we would have been ready to come together. But, you know, we got married when we got married because we were ready to be married, not because we were thinking about a visa. And it just is what it is, you know, in hindsight, everything. You can do everything better, right? [01:03:18] Speaker B: Yeah, well, yeah, man, I'm sure things will work out and it will push through and you're going to look back and you're going to tell stories about how you came over here to make money and you would go visit your wife, but eventually you got to bring her over. I think that's a really powerful story and I think you're doing everything right. And, you know, it's absolutely all going to work out. So. [01:03:47] Speaker C: Thanks. [01:03:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:03:50] Speaker C: It's hard in the moment, but, you know, there's a. There's a bright future ahead of us. So just gotta. Just gotta keep moving. [01:03:58] Speaker B: 100, 100%. Well, so you were telling me earlier, Seth, about buying some trees and selling them. How, how's that process been for you? And like, can you talk to me about how many trees you're looking to sell? [01:04:19] Speaker C: I've got more than. I must have around 50 to 60 trees at the moment. You know, some of the stuff is ready to sell now. Some of this stuff might need like a couple years. A lot of. A lot of the material that I've got needs remaking and just, I've got to work through it and get it to a point where, like, I'd be proud to sell it, right? Because, like, that's, that's my, my name out there. And I don't want to sell a weak tree. I don't want to sell a tree that I've just wired. And maybe I've killed a branch, but it's not showing that it's dead yet. And then somebody buy it from me and the branch die. You know, I don't, I don't wanna. I wanna do everything by the book and, you know, run a good business that's gonna last my lifetime, you know, and I'm just getting started, so I gotta, gotta make sure that I'm doing everything right. That being said, like, I'm. I'm in the process of starting, well, forming an llc. I've been using a dba, which is Doing business as. That's what it stands for. And I mean, it's. It just doesn't look as professional, right? Because basically an LLC and a DBA have the same filing taxes is the same for both of them. But, you know, if I'm handing out a business card and I give someone Seth Nelson doing business as Seth Nelson Bonsai, they're gonna look at me kind of funny, right? But if it just says Seth Nelson Bonsai llc, it looks more professional. So that's the main reason I'm doing it. But yeah, once I get that formed, I want to create a website and I just want to use you know, Instagram to promote the. Promote my work, and then, you know, funnel people to the website to see what I have available, when it's available. And, yeah, educational stuff is kind of on the back burner. Like. Like traveling workshops, traveling demos, those things kind of on the back burner because I've got trees here and I've got my patron to take care of, so I have these obligations that I have to prioritize. And the material, like I said, you know, I. It'll be available as soon as I can make it available, but I don't want to put it out there too early. And that's. Yeah, it's tricky. Like, it's hard to make money doing bonsai, right, because, you know, the tree is only worth something if something. Someone is willing to pay for it. And otherwise it's just sitting out there on the bench. So it's not going down in value necessarily. But you are incurring a lot of risk. Yeah, there's holding costs and there's the. And risk, like, one bad watering or, you know, fungus, whatever. So, yeah, it's. It's tricky. And I. I have zero business experience. Like, I'm trying to figure this all out from nothing. I've been on the podcast and told you, like, I. I didn't finish university. I got my associate's degree, and I studied bonsai. I didn't study bonsai business in. As an apprentice, I wasn't allowed to participate in business at all. I wasn't allowed to sell pots, even. So I made, like, no business relationships during my apprenticeship, whereas a lot of other apprentices do. So I'm figuring it all out, and I don't know. It's. It's a learning experience, and I've. Yeah. Just doing my best to. To do it. Yeah. Just doing my best to do the damn thing. [01:08:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, man, you're gonna do great. I. I can tell you're smart. You're gonna figure it out. 100. And if I can help with anything ever, please let me know. [01:08:40] Speaker C: I think the LLC is about 20 bucks I got you, man. [01:08:45] Speaker B: I owe you for those headphones anyways, but. [01:08:47] Speaker C: No, no, no, no. Sorry, go ahead. You were saying something about the llc. [01:08:53] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I think that's. That's a fantastic move, especially in a state like Alabama. It's probably very inexpensive to set up. I've actually set up a couple because I. I've got some properties in a couple other states, and so I've set up a couple LLCs in different states before I could definitely Help you out with that or anything I can do to help. Always down. Always want to help out at home. [01:09:18] Speaker C: It seems pretty straightforward. A few days ago, I actually, I went to CPA and got some advice because, you know, living in Japan as an apprentice, I've had no income, so I haven't filed taxes for, like, since 2019. And I'm just kind of. I'm scared of the tax man. I don't owe anything because I didn't earn anything. But I just, you know, that's a rule that I live by, is you don't mess with the tax man. Pay him what you owe him. [01:09:47] Speaker B: 100%. Yes. Yeah. That is a complex subject right there. Business taxes. [01:09:54] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. [01:09:58] Speaker B: Cool. [01:09:58] Speaker C: Cool. [01:09:59] Speaker B: Well, that's really interesting about the selling of trees thing, and I'm really excited to follow along with that. I'll have to hit you up after the. After the episode. I'll tell you what, I might be interested in the future, so you can keep your eye out for it. Okay. [01:10:15] Speaker C: Yeah. That's awesome. I love it. [01:10:19] Speaker B: But you were. I also saw a post on Instagram you were talking about maybe, like, getting together a local auction. That was just an idea you had. [01:10:28] Speaker C: And it turns out it's not that simple. And it's kind of funny because I've attended bonsai auctions in the US like, you know, different locations. But it turns out, and I don't know if these are recent laws or if they've been on the books for a long time, but you cannot hold an auction without an auctioneer's license. So that's. Yeah. And I only found that out because when I posted that I was interested in that, somebody said, by the way, I tried to do an auction, and if you don't follow state law, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, okay, well, someone's gonna snitch on me if I do this without, you know, following the law. And I didn't realize. There's something I would like to figure out in the. The hang up I'm having right now, mentally, is I could hire an auctioneer for the event, but he would have zero bonsai experience. And I don't know how. How's an auctioneer going to go up in auction things? He had. He knows nothing about, you know, so that's. That's something I want to figure out, but it's not as straightforward as I thought it would be because, like, here in Birmingham, I'm three hours to Nashville, I'm three hours to Memphis, I'm three hours to Knoxville, three hours of Chattanooga, three hours to Atlanta. New Orleans is five hours away. I'm in a pretty decent spot, like, to create a bonsai hub. Even like Kentucky is five hours away, so like Lexington, Kentucky. I know Lexington has a big bonsai scene, so there's potential. You know, if I had good stuff, you know, you'd hope that people would want to come to where it is. So that's, that's an idea that I'm mentally working out and thinking about, but I don't. It'll take more work than I thought. So I would like to, because I, I think there's a, there's an opportunity there to bring the surrounding areas together to create a big event that's like beneficial for the community. And, you know, it's a good opportunity for people to buy, sell trade material and. Yeah, I mean, you know, as a collector yourself. Right. Like, it's hard to find material. So it, it seems like a good thing to do, as long as it's a viable thing to do. [01:13:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I, I totally get wanting to be. Wanting to do everything right, and it sounds like you are doing everything right and I really respect that about you and I think that's the way to do it. I will say, what about if you did, instead of a, like a true auction, what if you did some type of marketplace sale, some type of get together, some type of bonsai swap meet or something like that that may be just as successful and lucrative and yeah. [01:13:40] Speaker C: So that's, that's a route. It's just the definition of an auction is if someone is calling for bids to progress the price of an item, which is so. [01:14:00] Speaker B: Got it. [01:14:01] Speaker C: Yeah. So, so it's really, it's really hard to leave the legal frameworks of like, it's really hard to have an auction like event that is not still within the legal definition of an auction. But hiring. If I can bring interest and like put this together, you know, hiring an auctioneer is not impossible. I've actually, I've already contacted and gotten a quote from a guy, so I've made that much progress on the idea. But then if I'm hiring somebody to do it, you know, there, there has to be enough interest that can even afford to pay the guy. Right. Oh, it's, it's something I would like to figure out. And then if the auction is not possible, having a marketplace I think is like, I don't, I don't think I would need any kind of special permitting or anything like that to invite people who hold nursery licenses to like Set up a vendor area or something. But again, you have to, you have to create the appeal and interest for people actually to attend. But I, I think, I think people want access to good material and they're willing to travel for it as long as it's there. Like, that's how I think. But I know that just the way I feel about bonsai is probably like the top 5% of the way people feel about bonsai. Like the vast majority of people in bonsai are, you know, it's just their, their hobby, when they're finished with work or whatever, most definitely. It's not like something they're obsessed with. So sometimes I have to like, I have to pull back and just kind of reevaluate like what I like versus what other people like. And like even come when it comes to selling trees. Like, I could open up a store and sell dresses that I like and nobody's going to come in and buy those dresses because it's not what they like. Right. So if I'm selling trees that I like, okay, well, maybe I'll open up a shop. But, but yeah, I mean, my point is like you as a professional and no matter what the business is, you do have to sell what people want. And I know what I want. And it's hard to know what other people want until you just go out there and try. And, you know, the thing is, I'm kind of in a position where I can explore and feel and kind of still be pretty secure in my living situation. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna try some stuff in time, see what works and see what doesn't and, you know, maybe I'll lose some money and maybe people don't show up, but at least I tried. And I don't know, what else can you do, you know? [01:17:13] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I love it, man. And I think that often like an, some type of event like you're talking about, I think it's just going to be an iterative thing where you're going to start with your rough draft, you're going to refine a little bit, a little bit, and eventually like you'll have something that could be that, that is super successful probably in making you money and getting high quality or good trees, trees that people want to the general public in your area. And so I think it will be really positive and you're going to do a great thing. I'm excited for it. [01:17:50] Speaker C: I, I think there's a really big opportunity to draw people together on it too because, you know, there's there's all sorts of nursery owners all over the place. It's hard, like for me, it would be hard for me to make a trip to New Orleans just for one nursery. Right. Because it's a five hour drive commitment both directions. But if we could bring, let's say a 300 mile radius of people to one location for two or three days event, something like that, or maybe a one day event, who knows? You know, there's an opportunity for a lot of people to do really well and, you know, everybody benefit from it because. Yeah. You know, if, if there's good trees, people should come. But that's kind of my thinking. I don't, I don't know what happens. [01:18:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm kind of surprised. Well, one thing I know about Japanese culture is they do a ton of auctions. Like both with bonsai. [01:18:55] Speaker C: Yeah. Every day. [01:18:57] Speaker B: It's all, it's koi auctions all the time. Bonsai auctions all the time. It seems like. And it does seem like a very useful thing. I really like many aspects of an auction. Like, I like that it creates community. I like that it creates it. It gives people a place to buy new, new material. And it creates like a, A fair market price for material and you can get feedback very quickly to know if like, hey, Japanese maples are worth a little bit more than they were last year. So I think there's like a lot of value in doing auctions and I'm almost surprised like there's not more auctions. It is interesting that like I think now. [01:19:42] Speaker C: Yeah. With the regulations that are actually in place. I think that's why we don't see it. And the other thing too is it's good for aspiring professionals to like, it gives them an opportunity to work material and then make money and continue making new material. Because there's a lot of like, you know, they're not Japanese trained or they're not formally trained, but there's a lot of like professionals working who don't have like a. They only have their own outlet to sell through. Right. So they don't have access to like a marketplace other than like, you know, Facebook auction groups and stuff like that. But then the local market, like, like I said, you know, you're, you're. It's logistically hard to justify traveling five hours to visit one person to buy one tree. But when all these people come together and there's tons of trees and tons of people and you know, it creates, it can, it creates a competitive environment which promotes, you know, new professionals coming up and it promotes like the hobby to grow because there's room for it to grow. And I really think bonsai in the US has been very isolated competitively without collaboration much between professionals. And I'm guilty of that too, probably more so than others. But it would be nice to see something change where, where it can be like a, a collaborative competitive environment that like boosts other professionals and boosts the, well, the hobby base. Right, the hobbyist space. Because yeah, hobbyists want trees and somebody's gotta make them for sale. Right? [01:21:52] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. Sounds like, sounds like to me this, this would almost, this would fit well with a professionals organization in the U.S. what do you think? Is that where you were going with it? [01:22:08] Speaker C: You know, I wouldn't want to be on the board and I wouldn't want to be participating, but I would love if somebody else put it together. But you know, I, yeah, Japan has one and that's probably why everything works like efficiently because everything's organized through some kind of organization. And I don't know, I, I, I don't know how those things work because like we have American Bonsai Society, we have like all the state clubs, but even some clubs work well together. Some clubs don't get along and it's just, I don't know, it, I, I don't think that the club model is really the way for professionals to engage with the bonsai community to, I don't know. I don't, I really don't know because I've been at this for what, like a year? So I really just don't know. I know what I've experienced, but yeah, I can't be talking like, I know, but I'm talking about on this subject. [01:23:15] Speaker B: Yeah, fun subjects to talk about. Things can always be better. Bonsai is relatively new in the United States. The club scene is not the best. It could always be improved. There are good clubs, there's bad clubs, there's clubs in between. Always better ways to do things though. So I, I think it's great to chat about and figure out, hey, maybe there are things that we could change and improve. [01:23:40] Speaker C: I just don't want to step on people's toes thinking that like I, I have the answers and they're wrong, you know, that it's just my personality for sure, for sure. [01:23:53] Speaker B: You know, changing gears here a little bit, if that's okay. You know, one thing I was using recently is jointcock A and so basically with all my field grown stuff, actually when I was in Japan, I bought like five things of joint cock A which is like, basically, that's the one. [01:24:22] Speaker C: From the home center, right? [01:24:24] Speaker B: Yes. [01:24:24] Speaker C: Yes. Okay. [01:24:26] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And so basically it's. It's just like this very inexpensive wallpaper sealant that Mr. Tanaka used for cut paste, right? [01:24:39] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [01:24:42] Speaker B: I always appreciated that. He was always willing to experiment and find different supplies and. And like, he used the plastic rope. Right. For bending big trees instead of raffia. And this joint cock A stuff actually thought worked really well. And I wish I could get it here in the US I would totally buy tons of it. In fact, I use chat gbt. I took a picture of joint cock A and I was like, what is the equivalent, chemically speaking, to this product in the US and it gave me some options. So I purchased some of those and I haven't, I haven't actually used them yet, but I'm just curious, like, if I can find the same thing in the US for inexpensive and use that as a cut paste. [01:25:32] Speaker C: Yeah. So the reason he uses that was because they were a field growing family. And when you do, the way you work in a field is you let the trees grow. You cut them once or twice a year, so you end up with big cuts and you just need to slap something on there quickly and move on to the next tree. And that's why he found that. But I don't know what the equivalent product is because I haven't been able to translate it accurately enough to actually, like, rely on the translation. And I think there's issues using silicone because it's not totally waterproof. If I'm. I don't. I think. I don't know. I know that there's some products that are similar in their use, but I don't know in the application that we're trying to use them for if they'll work as well. And that stuff, I mean, it works well. I just, I don't. I haven't found an alternative yet. So if you have good success, I would like to know because, I mean, I've been. I've got access to the, the Japanese cut paste. Cut pastes. But whenever I put trees in the ground here at my house myself, you know, I, I need something cheap to slap on there too. And a liquid, it just goes on a lot faster than like the, the electricians putty. The putty types. So in the, in, in a field work, it's better. I know, like, you can use like wood glue. It works. But maybe it's. I. I don't know if it's like, great, you know, but I know it works. Like most things will work. Elmer's glue will work. But it's not the best and it has its drawbacks. [01:27:27] Speaker B: Yeah. So what Chat GPT told me is this product called and I haven't tried this so I don't recommend anyone goes goes out and gets it yet. But I just got some so we'll see how it is. It's a product called Zinser Sure Grip wallpaper seam and repair adhesive and it's an acrylic latex based seam adhesive. [01:27:54] Speaker C: And. [01:27:54] Speaker B: It says it's very similar to Joint Cock A. So we'll see. I'm gonna play around with it. [01:28:03] Speaker C: I'm looking at it right now because I'm. I. Yeah, I've never heard of it. I wonder, I wonder what like the, what it's like basing the similarity on you know, like maybe it's the same. Well you said on chemical so I wonder. [01:28:24] Speaker B: So this is. [01:28:25] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm probably, probably be good for me to try it too and then we both can report because we're in like totally different climates. [01:28:35] Speaker B: So Chat GPT says Joint A is an acrylic caulking seam adhesive. It's acrylic resin based with inorganic fillers and pigment and an anti mold agent which actually might be good for bonsai. [01:28:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:28:56] Speaker B: Water as a solvent. So I just said what is closest to that and it said this Zinser Sure Grip. So going to try it? [01:29:05] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean worst case scenario is it doesn't worse and work and you wasted like 10 bucks. Right? [01:29:12] Speaker B: For sure. [01:29:13] Speaker C: For sure. [01:29:16] Speaker B: One cool part about the Jointcock A was that you could get it in any color and I don't know if you can get this stuff in any color but I think that's kind of nice, you know, not that for field growing it really doesn't matter. [01:29:29] Speaker C: But yeah, I mean all that I would really be looking for is just something that works that you know, it needs to hold up to the sun for two or three years. Right. For a big cut. So I'm gonna, I'll look into that and I'll let. Yeah, I'll look into that just to see because I. I don't know what else to try. [01:29:57] Speaker B: Nice. Can you think of anything else that Mr. Tanaka experimented with like non traditional non bonsai stuff? Was he using anything off the top of your head that you remember? [01:30:13] Speaker C: I can say like we used a lot of stainless steel wire for like guy wiring instead of copper wire which it's just because stainless steel doesn't stretch even like you know when you're doing a heavy bend. Any. Any copper wire you use will stretch under that, like tension. Stainless steel is just stronger. So I think that's just like a common sense move that he tried. And for tying trees into pots, we used that rubber coated stainless steel. And that was because we could use a thinner wire and get a stronger hold than using aluminum. So I think that's also just kind of a common sense move. Stainless steel wire is a little hard to find. [01:31:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:31:07] Speaker C: What were you gonna say? [01:31:08] Speaker B: Oh, a couple things. I really liked that they use the coated stainless steel wire for. For tying down also because you get a. You could use it per year. So you know what year. [01:31:23] Speaker C: Yeah, you can change the color. [01:31:24] Speaker B: Yeah, that's nice. That's another advantage of it. [01:31:33] Speaker C: Yeah. The problem is, like, when. If I go to Home Depot and I'm looking for steel wire, almost all of it, actually all of it that I found at Home Depot or Lowe's is galvanized and it rusts. And I've made the mistake of using galvanized a few times. And it's also more brittle. But, you know, on Amazon, I could order stainless steel wire that's, like, produced for jewelry making. And you can get like 16 gauge, 18 gauge, 20 gauge, and I think even like Hobby Lobby, those kind of shops, Michaels, they. You might be able to find it there. I've seen it at Hobby Lobby. I haven't seen it at Michael's, but I've seen Hobby Lobby have those, like stainless steel. But, you know, I. I still, I've bought some, but I haven't tried it for a heavy bend. So I don't know. Yeah, I don't know if I trust it to be strong enough yet to be recommending, like, oh, buy stainless steel wire from the jewelry department. But pretty soon I will be doing some of that work and I will find out. So cool. Other than that, though, like, nothing really stands out. I'm sure, like, I'm sure there was plenty of stuff that I just didn't even think of was like, not traditional traditional or like something. One of his own personal quirks or something. But I don't know. [01:33:16] Speaker B: Cool. No worries. That's just a fun, fun little topic I have there. Yeah. [01:33:25] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:33:26] Speaker B: What did, what did the term oyakata mean to you? Like, how. How do you explain that to someone that has no idea about Japanese culture or language? [01:33:39] Speaker C: It's. It's hard because as a foreigner, I don't know how deep I should think into it because it's not my culture, but the Word oyakata is too kanji. And I mean, I think oya. Oya comes from parent. And kata is like the way of. So the word literally translates to the way of the parent. Traditionally, oikata is, like, used as a reverent title for a boss of like, a traditional cultural art or like martial art. So like the head of a dojo who has like. Yeah, like martial arts is a very good comparison because they have the same system of uchideshi and soto dashi, like inside apprentices, outside apprentices, but like, you know, traditionally in martial arts. Just on what I've read, right? I'm not speaking as an authority, but from what I've read, uchideshi were chosen in martial arts to live inside the dojo or whatever, and then one would be selected to become the next head, right? The next oyakata. And that doesn't happen in bonsai. So sumo, they use the word oyakata and different, like crit trades, craftsmanships, carpenters, those kind of things. They use oikata also. So it's just. It's different from boss because, like, if you're working in a company, you don't call your boss oyekata, you call him Sacho. And that's just literally like boss. So for me, living as a foreigner inside of Aichan with my oyakata, I feel embarrassed to say that I looked at him as a father figure, but maybe to some degree, because he was a provider, you know, he cooked every meal, like breakfast, lunch, dinner. Well, lunch is. He didn't cook lunch. But anyways, you know, he cooked dinner for all of his apprentices and his family, and we ate at the table in their house with them. I mean, he got me a birthday cake every year, and him and his kids sang Happy Birthday to me. So, like. Yeah, to a degree, right? It's. It's. It's different from just calling him boss. So I went back to the US One time during my apprenticeship, and he paid for me. He paid for my ticket. And like, I. I asked him why, and he told me, because I'm way cut, that it's my responsibility. So, I mean, there's. It's hard to say because there's a clear separation between me and his family and also from me and being his friend. But then there's these, like, areas where things blend and blur and the. Yeah, I mean, I. I hold him in higher esteem than just a teacher, and I don't. It's a. It's a difficult question to answer because it brings up a lot of different feelings. And I. I see people online who will. Let's say they go to Japan and they just. They're there for a week, and then they start calling this person my oykata for the next 20 years. [01:37:49] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a little silly. [01:37:51] Speaker C: It's kind of. It's a little silly because it's not. It's. The meaning of the word is much more than that. And as, like an apprentice, especially as an uchidashi, like, I was. Like, I was in his home. He opened his home to me for me to learn what he does. And, like, I saw some very personal, intimate parts of being in his family. You know, like, yeah, family can be messy. Right. It can also be, like, fun and happy. And you don't. You don't get that if you're just studying with a teacher. So I haven't quite figured out exactly what oyakata means to me, but, yeah, I hold him in a higher reverence than I would a normal bonsai teacher or like a normal boss or manager that I've worked for, you know, And I do feel like it comes with a sense of loyalty that I owe to him as, like. As a gratitude for what he did for me because. Because of him and his openness to take me into his house and teach me bonsai, I'm able to now have my life here doing bonsai. So, yeah, that's a. It's a deep subject. Yeah. There's just this part of me that just doesn't want to say I looked up to him as a father. Father figure, because it just gets too emotional, and I don't want to be that guy. [01:39:35] Speaker B: Oh, man, that's complex. Thank you for sharing that, though. I. I really appreciate your response to that question. That was very good. [01:39:45] Speaker C: Yeah. And, you know, I. I think everybody who has studied in Japan, like everyone that's not Japanese, that studied in Japan, experiences what that word means slightly different because. [01:39:58] Speaker B: Differently. So. [01:39:59] Speaker C: Differently. Yeah. Yeah. Because every oikata is different. And, you know, you're. Sometimes you're in his house, sometimes you're not, but you. Everyone has their own. Your reality is what you make of it. Right. So, yeah. Not to. Yeah. Yeah. [01:40:23] Speaker B: Is. Is there anything that you feel like Mr. Tanaka tried to impart on you? Maybe outside of bonsai specifically, but in terms of just. Was he trying to make you a good man? And. And see, that's where. [01:40:46] Speaker C: That's where it gets. Yeah, that's where it gets kind of confusing because. Not directly, but just by being around him and, you know, you're gonna pick up things. Right. I didn't have a lot of very deep conversations with him. [01:41:12] Speaker B: So part of that doesn't surprise me because he seems pretty reserved. Reserved? [01:41:20] Speaker C: Yeah, He's. He can be shy about his, like, his personal stuff is his personal stuff. And, like, I. I don't feel like it was my place to ask much, you know, that. That's what I was trying to say when I said there's a. There's a clear boundary. At least for me. I. I felt that there was a boundary. [01:41:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:41:42] Speaker C: And I didn't feel like it was appropriate for me to cross that line. But it's weird for me because 2019, me before going to Japan, and me now, they're like two completely different people. Like, yeah, part of that is my wife, and a lot of that is my apprenticeship. And those two things. Yeah. Combining and coming together. It's who I am now. [01:42:18] Speaker B: Was it. [01:42:19] Speaker C: It's hard to say. [01:42:21] Speaker B: Before left a man kind of thing. [01:42:27] Speaker C: No, more like jackass. No less of a jackass. You know, like. Yeah. I feel like maybe I just decided it was time to grow up when I was in Japan and just take responsibility for my own self. But I think. I think the. Especially 2019, 2018 were pretty hard years for me personally, and I think I was. There's a time I was kind of spiraling down pretty hard. And then once I kind of targeted becoming an apprentice, things started to change for me. Like, for me to, like, mature and grow as a person. I. I think I just started to realize, like, hey, you know, I'm not. You know, when you're 22, you can still get away with some crap because you're 22, but when you're 27, it's like, all right, you gotta own your mistakes. You know, you gotta own your behavior. Like, there's. There's no one else to blame this on. It's all. It's all you at some point. And as an apprentice, you know, your mistakes are your. Are your mistakes. Like, if I messed up, well, it was on me. I can't say, well, I was told. Like, you may have been told to do it, but you were expected to do it right. So if you didn't do it right, that's your fault, and you can't deflect. And I. Yeah. So I. I think. I think that's something I had to just, like, grow into and own as an apprentice is just, like, taking accountability for the way I act and who I am and not, you know, making too many excuses about, you know, I behave this way because this happened to me because, you know. Yeah, it happened to you, but what's happening to you right now, like, it's just you being you. So. Yeah. [01:44:38] Speaker B: So do you feel like Mr. Tanaka rubbed off on you in, in many ways. And was there anything he was hardcore about in terms of like personally how he wanted to shape. Not necessarily to shape you, but he thought that men should be or people in general. [01:45:04] Speaker C: That's tough to answer. I know that he did. I just don't know if it was intentional and I don't know if I was doing it intentionally either. So it's hard for me to like, like specify like, oh yeah, this, this changed because I saw him do that. Yeah, that is. It's hard for me to answer. I don't think I have a good answer for that. [01:45:33] Speaker B: You ever think about like, what percentage of your talks with him were regarding tree talk or bonsai talk compared to other stuff? [01:45:43] Speaker C: Probably 90%. [01:45:46] Speaker B: Yeah, 90. [01:45:48] Speaker C: Like, yeah. I mean, just for example, there is a lot of times like I would be in the car with him going from Nagoya to like the different prefecture and it's like a five hour drive each way and we'd probably say like 10 words to each other. And it wasn't like there was this bad relationship. It was just like he liked to be quiet while he drives and I would just be quiet. And you know, sometimes I'd fall asleep and then I'd be thinking about bonsai. I'd wake up, I'd ask him like, wake up. Why do they feel grow trees this way? Why do they do this? Why do they do that? And then like we chat about it, but then once that chat would end, it would be silence again for another three hours. And that was like, yeah, pretty typical. But I. It wasn't like due to any animosity or anything like that, you know, it's just the way it was for sure, getting personal. And I think me and him are kind of similar in the way we hold our emotions kind of close to ourselves or maybe prior to going to Japan, I definitely seeked attention a lot. And I think maybe that's something that is like a very noticeable change. And that could have been an influence from him just being around him and being an apprentice, you know. Well, what I would say approval seeking behavior is my unofficial diagnosis of myself. Okay. But as an apprentice, like, yeah, you just have to get over it, you know, like you don't get a good job. So if you're, if you're a person who wants a Good job. And, like, it hurts you that you don't get one. Then you're gonna be miserable all the time. But on top of that, just the way he is, you know, something bad happens, like, he. He finds his own way to deal with it. It's not, like a thing that other people need to engage in with him. Yeah, this. This is personal. My. My father died while I was in Japan, and I wasn't close with him, but, you know, after about two weeks, I told my oikata, like, hey, just so you know, the reason I've been kind of off lately is my dad died. And he was like. And then there's an awkward silence. And then, like, 10 minutes later is like, yeah, when my dad died left a big hole in my heart. And. And I was like. And that was. I mean, that was as deep as we both got about it. But I think, like, yeah, that's all we needed to say to each other, you know? [01:48:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:48:51] Speaker C: I think, like, those kind of things, like, it's hard to open up, and it's hard for me now to open up and share those things, but I think it is for him, too. So I think, like, we both understood and he understood, and that's all he needed to say, and we moved on. [01:49:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:49:10] Speaker C: And on that note of his father, not death, he did tell me before, like, maybe this is considered something about him that's not traditional, but he would say there's a strong connection between people and their bonsai. And, you know, there is this guy who had Alzheimer's, and, you know, Alzheimer's, it affects your brain. Right. And all the heads of his bonsai were dying, and he'd say, like, yeah, he's losing his head. So the trees are losing their head. But he told me when his father passed away, his father's favorite tree, which was a zuisho, it died one month later, just suddenly. [01:50:02] Speaker B: Holy. [01:50:03] Speaker C: And he told. Yeah, he told me that. And he's like, yeah, strong connection between the humans and bonsai. And I think there's some weird truth to that. I think you can see a lot about a person, like, a bonsai person. You can see a lot about their personality and, like, the state of their garden and their bonsai work and their taste. I think a lot of that. Well, a lot of that is just, like, your general taste is dictated by your personality. Right. So it shows. So I think that there's. There's something deeper going on there, for sure. [01:50:40] Speaker B: Most definitely. Interesting. Interesting. Did he talk much about the other apprentices or, like, former apprentices like, did he mention Peter and Juan and Danny? [01:50:51] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I would ask questions like, how did Peter wire this tree so fast? And like, what am I doing wrong? Because, like, of course I'm reading Peter's blog and I'm seeing the trees and now that, like, I'm there and I understand the scale of the work. Yeah, of course. Like, God damn, like, one day wire a tree that size. Like, how the fuck do you do that? Sorry for using that word, but. Or, you know, there was other interpersonal problems among apprentices and, you know, privately talk about those things. But also, he was pretty hands off. And maybe that's not a good thing. Yeah, I don't want to, like, slander anybody, but definitely there's problems with personality clashes. And that's. I think that's typical of the apprentice environment. More so with Japanese, because part of the Senpai Kohai Waikata culture is the quote, unquote, you're supposed to steal the information. So it creates this, like, competitiveness between the other apprentices who are looking to be the top apprentice. Right. With us at I Chan, though, it's a little different because we're all foreigners, so it's not our culture to treat each other that way. And that's where I think that's where things get weird, specifically for Aichan apprentices. Because I think a lot of our own expectations as to what an apprentice should do are we are putting on ourselves rather than being instructed, you know, And I think that causes issues because, like, if I start a new job, of course I respect the people that have been there longer, but I also expect to be treated with mutual respect. And that's not how apprenticeship works. So when you have two Americans who are role playing this Japanese culture of Senpai Kohai, your natural reaction is, hey, don't talk to me that way, you jerk. And yeah, that definitely causes conflict. That's the most professional way to put it. [01:53:30] Speaker B: Such a weird situation to be. That's so foreign. [01:53:35] Speaker C: Super weird. [01:53:37] Speaker B: Culturally speaking. Yeah. I can't even imagine. Man, that's a trip that would be very interesting. [01:53:45] Speaker C: I would. I have stories I would tell you privately, but not recorded for the public. But I'm pretty sure I've told you even. But, you know, it's the same for anyone who apprentices. Everyone's got their own stories. But there's, like I said, though, you know, you have to take accountability for your own actions and just get on with it. Like, at some point you can't. Like, I can't be blaming my success or failure in my apprenticeship on the guy sitting next to me. You know, like, I'm responsible for myself. And even if I'm the lowest apprentice, just because I'm the lowest apprentice doesn't mean I am expected to do, like, the lowest quality work, you know? Like. And that also causes conflict, right? Because there's this competitiveness of, like, oh, I've been here for two years, you've been here for three months, and you're working on a tree better than me, or vice versa. Right. There's too much testosterone in a small, little room and culture and all that crap. [01:54:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Complex, man. Complex. Are you still talking with Mr. Tanaka? You guys text back and forth Sometimes. [01:55:00] Speaker C: A little bit, you know, Like, I. You know, I just brought all these trees here. So I actually messaged him and showed him pictures yesterday. But, you know, like, very short text. The way, like, if I ask him for a favor, his response will be okay. I could send him a whole paragraph and his response be okay. So, like, that's just how he is. It's nothing personal. At least that's how he is with me. So maybe I've just. Maybe I'm coping. I don't know. [01:55:33] Speaker B: But when I got to meet him for a very short amount of time, I got that impression very much. It was almost like a little bit of shyness, but also being very polite and. Yeah, yeah. So I totally. [01:55:50] Speaker C: I would say he's. He's very shy, but also very open at the same time. Like, he's open enough to let all these weird foreigners into his house. Like, people he's never met, right? Like, yeah, he's open enough to do that, but, like, if a tour. If a tour group comes, he'll literally, like, leave the nursery. Just run away. [01:56:18] Speaker B: No way. Oh, that's funny. [01:56:20] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, kind of funny. Like, sometimes we'd have to send him pictures. Like. Like, say a customer showed up. He would literally leave, and then we'd have to send him pictures, and he was like, yeah, not for sale. But it's just his. He's. He's funny guy. [01:56:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I sensed tremendous politeness. Like, he was just so polite, and probably because I was more of a guest than anything or, you know, coming in as a. As really a foreigner that was just there for a short period of time. But as I was leaving, he would come outside and make sure that he was saying goodbye to me. And I know a lot of this is just Japanese culture, but extremely polite. [01:57:07] Speaker C: And, yeah, like, it's. [01:57:10] Speaker B: I'm Sure. I was rude in several ways and I feel really bad about that. I always wonder. [01:57:15] Speaker C: I think with him, he understands that there's a cultural difference. So he doesn't take it as rudeness, you know, from his apprentices. Maybe because you're expected to like, assimilate. Right. But I think, like, there's a lot of politeness built into Japanese culture, but it's not, it shouldn't be taken for granted because, like, they go out of their way to be polite. You know, it's not just like everybody's happy. Like they, they really put effort into being polite. And I think that's really genuine most of the time. Like, my Oikata's politeness, I think is really genuine. And I think also he speaks pretty directly in Japanese. Like, you know, he's not rude or anything like that. But he doesn't, I don't know, he doesn't play the whole political game, political game of politeness. Like he. If he's being polite, it's because he's being honest. I gotta run to the bathroom again. I've been drinking coffee this whole time, so. Oh, right back. Very nice. [01:58:23] Speaker B: I'm gonna go too. [01:58:30] Speaker C: Hey, I'm back. Sorry about that. [01:58:33] Speaker B: No worries. What kind of coffee are you sipping on? [01:58:37] Speaker C: Folgers with half and half. [01:58:39] Speaker B: Oh, dang. [01:58:40] Speaker C: Okay. Yeah, I. I bought some sweet cream creamer. God, it's so sweet. I can't even handle it, man. I. I either drink coffee black or with half and half. That's. Yeah. [01:58:57] Speaker B: Yeah. So you drink coffee at night though? [01:59:03] Speaker C: I got four hours of sleep last night just because. Dude, I. I'm stupid, that's why. It wasn't for anything important. I. I was researching garden hoses from 12am to 2am Because I discovered stainless steel garden hoses exist. [01:59:25] Speaker B: Okay. [01:59:26] Speaker C: And, and they look great, but they have a smaller inner dynamic diameter, which affects the water flow rate. So I was trying to figure out, like, could I use this and get good water pressure out of my, like my hose end? [01:59:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:59:45] Speaker C: Or is it going to be a waste of money? And I just, I watch like three or four YouTube videos of like top 25 hoses of 2025, which is so stupid to do because, dude, I don't know. I. I'm addicted to my phone and I. That's like, I'm one of these people that just gets sucked into it. [02:00:07] Speaker B: No, this is like the exact reason why I think you're cool. Because that's like one of the geekiest ass store multi stories I've ever heard. In my life. Like, I stayed look away a couple four hours of sleep because I was looking. So garden hose reviews. [02:00:25] Speaker C: It's called the bionic steel pro. Okay. I was looking at the 100 foot hose. So the. The nice thing about it is that it. It cannot kink because it's supposed to be stainless steel. Yeah, supposed to be. I read a lot of reviews. I'm an expert on this subject now. [02:00:46] Speaker B: You know, Peter has one in his garden, but. Yeah, I don't know if I like it or not. I don't know. Like, he. He has both. He has a bunch of hoses in his garden. [02:00:58] Speaker C: And for the amount of use, you know, it's important to have a good hose. It sounds stupid, but that's like half of bonsai is just watering. Right. So it is true. [02:01:09] Speaker B: Very true. [02:01:11] Speaker C: I'm justifying spending two hours watching garden hose reviews right now. [02:01:17] Speaker B: You know, that is a good point. With the amount of time that you do spend watering, it makes sense that you want to have the ideal setup. So I get it. I. Yeah, I guess I am worried about the flow rate. Want to make sure that works well. Which I know you can alter. Right. If needed. [02:01:36] Speaker C: It comes down to the inner diameter of the hose. And that's the. That's a drawback of those stainless steel hoses is because it's in. If there's a rubber tube inside of a stainless steel housing. [02:01:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:01:50] Speaker C: So that rubber tube doesn't have room to expand. Uh, so like, for example, like a standard hose is a 5, 8 inch inner diameter, but because it's made out of rubber, it still can expand a little bit more. And the. If you have a 5 inch inner diameter stainless steel, the flow rate is 3.9 gallons per minute versus like a regular standard is like 9 gallons per minute. So just, just that inner diameter makes it pretty noticeable for sure difference in the flow rate. And that's not because of water pressure. You know, that's just due to the diameter of the hose. So anyways, I bought a. Bought a $80 hose last night. [02:02:39] Speaker B: Oh, nice. Nice. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. Let me know how you like it. I. I've used them too, actually. I. I do think that they are still very susceptible to damage. Like if you run one of those over with a car, I think it's doesn't work anymore. [02:02:59] Speaker C: Yeah, that's why I spent hours looking at reviews because, okay, they're all advertised as being like, indestructible, you know, and then you start seeing. No, I saw pictures of people who've had it for, like, one year, and it's rusty, so it's like. Well, it's not even. It can't be stainless steel if you. If it's rusting, so. Yeah. Yeah. I should have been able to figure that out in, like, five minutes, but I. I spent two hours on it last night. [02:03:30] Speaker B: I feel like the perfect hose does not exist. Like, no, it doesn't. Someone. They probably have it in Japan or something, but. [02:03:40] Speaker C: No, the hoses suck in Japan too. Okay. Have you heard of the Flex. Flexzilla. [02:03:48] Speaker B: Flexzilla. That's what I use, actually. [02:03:49] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, that's what. That's what I got. Because it'll still kink, but it doesn't hold. It's like no memory rubber. Right. So it doesn't kink in the same place. So you'll just, you know, undo it and the kink goes away. So I think that's probably the best that you can do for sure. [02:04:11] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. It's better than mini that I've. I'm happy with it. It's not perfect, though. And I hate the color. Like, I. I know that's a. Yeah. Thing, but, like, I just want it to be, like, black or gray or something. [02:04:24] Speaker C: I ordered a gray one. Yeah, I got. I got a gray one. They have, like, four or five colors now. [02:04:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I didn't know that. [02:04:31] Speaker C: Okay. But the. The normal ones. That ugly neon green. [02:04:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, I hate it. [02:04:35] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hate that color. [02:04:39] Speaker B: Okay. All right. I'll have to get a black. When I replace it, I'll get a single color. That'd be good. Nice. Cool, man. Well, why don't we. Do you want to jump into some. So we. I actually just shouted out on an Instagram story and said I was podcasting with you, and a few people gave me some questions. Do you mind if we hit them? [02:05:01] Speaker C: Those. Yeah, run through it. Let's do a quick Q and A or a long Q and A. Whatever you got time for. [02:05:08] Speaker B: Fantastic. [02:05:08] Speaker C: Okay. [02:05:09] Speaker B: And I'm just pulling them up on my phone, so it might take a sec. Okay. [02:05:14] Speaker C: Yeah, no problem. Hanging out. [02:05:16] Speaker B: Okay. Why don't we start with my buddy? And we may have answered some of these already. My buddy Pong. Shout out to Pong. Pong is, like, the coolest guy ever. He is creating an incredible collection up in the Bay Area, too. Okay, let's see. He asks. Okay. You should ask Seth about everybody's favorite topic. Soil mixes. In Japan, it seems like they use a much wetter soil mix, whereas in the Us, we use a pretty low akadama percentage. And it seems like they water trees a little more over there too. I always kind of wondered what is up with that? That's his first question. So soil mix, what do you have to say? [02:06:07] Speaker C: Yeah, soil mix. Maybe that's a I chan difference because I chan mix was very heavy on sand, not akadama. So it was really dry, you know, not that Nagoya area in the past, say, you know, they've been growing bonsai in that Nagoya Aichi prefecture area for like a hundred years. So they primarily use river sand, which is probably more or less decomposed granite. I. I'm not exactly sure what it is, so I'm just gonna say it's equivalent to that. And even deciduous trees, they would use sand on, they would just mix in more fines. And while I was apprenticing, I did put a, a chart at Maple Shohin into the sand. And then I added 30% of the sifted fines. You know, like the dust, I just added that dust back into the sand and I had it growing in 100%, 100% river sand did great. I don't think that's. I think akadama is really good. And using akadama has its place in bonsai. That being said, growing in a wetter mix means you're not watering as frequently, which means you can slow the trees growth rate down. Growing in a dry mix will mean you will water more often and the tree will be able to take up fertilizer every time you water and the tree will grow more quickly. So for development, growing on the dry side is always like, you know, what people recommend. But growing in a wet mix, it provides its benefits, you know, like it to develop like a very. Say you want to develop a thin chart at maple or Japanese maple will be easier. Let's say you want to develop a very thin, elegant, dainty Japanese maple. And you don't want it growing fast because you want really tight inner nodes and you want really slow growth to create this like natural age look. If you grow it too fast for one season, you know, you, you blow things out of proportion. So that's why you grow in like a, a more heavy akadama based soil. While I was an apprentice, like inside of I Chen, we said that was Tokyo style. And I don't know if that's like something. I don't know if that's something we said or if that's something that there's a like agreeance on. You know, I don't know if Japanese bonsai world would agree that's Tokyo style, but that's something among the apprentices. That's what we would talk about here in the U.S. i mean like the most popular mix is like 1, 1, 1 Akadama Lala, pumice, right. And soil. I don't understand why people get so fussy about it. Because, like, when you take a step back and just look at agriculture, you can grow plants in the air being misted with water. Like, aeroponics is a thing, Hydroponics is a thing. So like, soil is used in bonsai to control growth, which means when you have different goals, you can adapt your soil mix and meet those goals. So there, there's not one formula for every tree. And I think where people get hung up is like, if you have a traveling bonsai professional working with people all over the place teaching, like, use this soil mix. It's because it's a good base foundational formula that works with tons of people in tons of different climates. Right. And then if you're more experienced, you can start with that foundation and then you can like adapt it to suit your needs. Like, yeah, I, I prefer to grow in a dry mix of water more frequently because that's even what we did at I chan. So I'm comfortable with that. But like, then you run the risk of trees going to wilt because you're, maybe you're not. You miss watering when they needed it, like, especially if you're working. Right. But the opposite risk is your trees are staying too wet for too long and you can be exposed to root rot or maybe more fungus because the trees are just wet more often and moisture invites fungus. So, you know, I don't have any specific strong takes on soil like in Florida growing tropicals. I could, I could literally take a ficus and just put it sitting. Like take it bare root it 100%, put it on like chicken wire table and just have it watered three times a day by my overhead sprayers and they would grow just the same. So like, I've played around with soil, but yeah, the, the longer you're into bonsai and the more experienced you are with different species, it's easy just to, you know, oh, this is a trident maple. It's really hot here. I'm going to use a little more akadama and I'm going to take some of the sand out or lava or, you know, whatever. Like a pine. Maybe you start with the 1, 1, 1 and because you want it to be a little bit drier, because pines like to be A little bit drier. You make it like 1, 1, 2 or 1, 2, 2, like 1 part Akadama, 2 parts this, 2 parts, like your dry ingredients. Yeah, I mean the, the whole soil thing, the best to do is to avoid using organics in your soil in a bonsai pot. But like, I, I'm at the point where I take that for granted, you know, Like, I don't think that should even be a relevant discussion anymore. Like in the bonsai culture, you know, maybe beginners, they need to learn to avoid that. But I just kind of take it for granted now that, like, if you're semi serious about bonsai, you should just accept the fact that organics in your bonsai pots lead to problems. And like, I'm sure there's, there's people that have success with it and that's fine too. You know, like if, if it works for you because of your watering habits, then it's fine. Like it's. Yeah, it's a problem for me. Like it's. I don't like it because it doesn't suit my watering habits. But again, like I, I'm a bonsai professional, so like my daily routine is based around the trees. Whereas like someone else, they're going to work, they're dealing with family, other commitments, and maybe they don't even water every day. Maybe they water every three days. And having potting soil in a bonsai pot works for them. And yeah, it's not ideal, but if it works, it works solid. [02:13:42] Speaker B: I like it. And yeah, I think it's not a good idea to have organics. [02:13:49] Speaker C: No, definitely not. [02:13:51] Speaker B: The only caveat, kind of there is. I do think akadama is partially organic, which I've heard. Yeah, I don't on that, but that. So I. Yeah, I don't know. I. I wasn't counting akadama is all I wanted to say. Akadama is a good thing in my mind. [02:14:05] Speaker C: Yeah, I don't count it either. I will say though, at I Chen, there is times that if we would use akadama and sand together, certain ratios of it left for. I. I talked to you before about how we wouldn't repot trees all the time. Like there's some trees hadn't been repotted in 10 years and they're still healthy. That akadama, as it breaks down, it almost binds to the sand as it's like concrete binding with sand, you know, becomes like a very hard brick. But you can still repot those trees and they recover fine from it. So I don't think that's really an issue. And I. I don't think most people let their trees go that far anyhow, because I don't think most people have that much control over their growing. [02:14:58] Speaker B: Nice. I guess just kind of to wrap that up. Regarding akadama, for anybody that's really serious about bonsai or a professional level collection, Would you always put akadama in your mix? Will your. Will your mix always include akadama. [02:15:19] Speaker C: For good trees? Yeah, yeah. Like, especially in material and development, I would just try to stick to a cheaper single ingredient mix. I guess a single ingredient is not a mix. But, like, for example, I'm. I'm comfortable growing in 100 lava rock or 100 pumice or 100% sand and just like watering a ton and feeding a ton for development. That's good. So by the time you're ready to put like a. A, a good tree into a good pot, then, yeah, you got to fork up a little bit extra money and put it in good soil. [02:16:00] Speaker B: Too sweet. [02:16:01] Speaker C: Fair enough. It's just. Just the way it is. [02:16:04] Speaker B: Yeah. All right, next question has to do with. Do you feel like you've been here long enough to see the same Japanese species not quite behaving the same way in the US Compared to Japan? So I'm. I'm thinking like, you know, do you have to keep a few more needles here in the US Compared with Japan when you're pulling needles? Something like that. [02:16:33] Speaker C: Yeah. I don't think I've been here long enough to speak definitively on that, but this year. Well, this past season with black pines, I pulled needles the same way I would in Japan, and I'm seeing the same result as I saw in Japan. You know, the wiring that I've been doing, everything's about the same. Like, I haven't noticed trees are reacting any differently. But, you know, Nagoya, it's a hot climate. The winter in Nagoya is more stable than it is here in Alabama. Winter here is definitely more warm and the temperature fluctuates more. But as far as, like, highs go in the summer, Nagoya is like, just as hot as it is here. So maybe the climates between the areas are kind of similar, which is kind of a trope. I think that everyone thinks where they live is just like in Japan, but. But I think so far from what I've seen with stuff that I'm caring for, it's reacting as I would expect it to react. That being said, you know, I haven't gone through the candling season yet, so that may change. You know, like, if we touch in next year, I may have a different opinion, but so far, so good. [02:18:16] Speaker B: Sweet. Very nice. Very nice. All right, next one from Mr. Diaz. He is saying, I wonder if Seth had any experience with rebuilding Arakawa maples. They tend to have a weak apex and tend to die back. Has he done much rebuilding, or how are they keeping them to thrive in Japan? [02:18:42] Speaker C: So, I will be honest. I have not rebuilt one, but there is one that I'm caring for that is being rebuilt now. It just came out of corn, like quarantine this year, and, yeah, it lost some stuff in the top, and Arakawa is weaker in the top, so, I mean, the way you handle an Arakawa that's weak in the top is just let it grow a little bit more before you cut it. Or instead of cutting it back to two leaves, you cut it back to four leaves and cut every other branch down to two leaves, which is kind of standard, like, balancing treatment. We had a really great Arakawa at I Chen, and that tree was always kind of in balance, and it never, like, needed a hard cutback, and it was easy to maintain. So I never really noticed a major difference between maintaining a healthy Arakawa versus a normal momiji. But, yeah, I mean, if. If your tree is weak in the top, you just have to let the top grow and recover a little bit and then, you know, balance things out. Like, all. All bonsai is a balancing act, right? Every species. [02:20:05] Speaker B: Gotcha. Do you think overall, Arakawa seems to be quite a bit weaker from what you've seen compared to the standard Japanese maple? [02:20:20] Speaker C: It's hard to answer that fairly because what I saw in Japan is, like, very old, large Arakawa. You know, that don't really exist in the US or maybe they do here and there, but I haven't. From what I saw as an apprentice, I didn't notice there was a major difference, but I've never taken one from, you know, stock and developed it into something nice. So I. I think you need that experience to be able to answer that fairly. Just based on what I've been told in conversation is like, yeah, a lot of people would. Would feel that way, and they tend to be coarser. Right. That's just part of their habit. [02:21:13] Speaker B: Cool. Sounds good. All right, next one from Joel. So he is asking, what are the biggest cultural or stylistic differences you've noticed between traditional Japanese bonsai techniques and how they've adapted or practiced in the US and how do you plan to incorporate that into your professional work here? [02:21:39] Speaker C: That's. Yeah, I mean, I've been back in the US Working for one year, and what I studied was pretty much traditional Japanese bonsai, Right? And, you know, the word tradition implies that you're doing something old the same way for a long period of time. Otherwise, like, the tradition dies. Right? So tradition, traditional bonsai, in that sense, is not striving to differentiate itself into something else. I feel like in America, there's been a very loud, strong push for American bonsai. And I. I had a conversation while I was in California about, like, how culture influences bonsai design. And that's really. It's a weird concept for me because I don't totally understand the concept of how the. I don't understand the concept of how culture influences bonsai, because for me, when I think of bonsai, I think of bonsai. The word itself is a Japanese word, right? So that doesn't mean that there you can't have variation of what trees look like. Right. And I don't know that if the tree is siled one way or the other, if that distinguishes itself as if it's this thing, it's distinguishing enough to classify it as a cultural difference. You know, like, if you. If you wire a tree and say it's inspired by the Rocky Mountains or whatever, is that enough to now distinguish it as American? Or is it just like, you know, inspired by a landscape that you saw? Because in Japan, they would do the same thing with what's local for their inspiration, right? So I. I don't know. I don't know if that's enough to, like, classify it as a cultural influence. Because at the end of the day, to me, like, it still looks like bonsai. Even if you change the container from make a, you know, a typical bonsai pot to a different style of container, it's still basically the same. Like, the. The elements are of bonsai are still there. Like the bonsai as a medium of art. If you change the container, you're still creating bonsai as a medium of art. And I don't know if the container itself is enough to justify, like, a cultural change distinction. I don't know. Because, like, you can look at Yon, who. If the Facebook posts are real, he just passed away. Yeah, but you can look at. Yeah, you can look at his. His oldest or his latest works, and they're very. Not traditional container designs. Right. But he's still Japanese. So I. I really don't know. Like, I don't know if. If a Japanese pot maker, who is. Who was the most highly regarded living pot maker just until he passed away. If he starts doing something non typical. Is he doing something that's not Japanese? It's. I don't know. I think it's a weird question that is like, maybe a flawed question for. At least for me, I can't wrap my head around it. [02:25:50] Speaker B: It's definitely a tough, complex question. I don't know how I would articulate the thoughts that I have in my mind. Yeah, I wouldn't do a good job of it personally. [02:26:01] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, like, I. I think this is kind of related to the subject. But, you know, bonsai as a medium of art, I don't think it can express cultural values the way sculpture can, the way painting can, the way photography can. You know, like, I. I don't remember the name of the piece of art, but it's like something like Saturn eating, devouring his son. Do you. Do you know what I'm talking about? No, but it's like a. Okay, so if you, if you find it, it's like, you know, I guess the Greek God Saturn cannibalizing his son. Yeah. So. [02:26:53] Speaker B: Okay, I see exactly what you're talking about. Looks very metal. [02:26:55] Speaker C: There's no way. There's no way that bonsai can express what that painting expresses. And like, or for example, through poetry, you can express, you know, the depths of your emotion of love and loss and everything else. And I don't think bonsai can capture that either. Not to. Not in the same degree. Because as a medium, it only expresses itself as itself. Like it's a tree is a tree. And like it can evoke emotion, but I don't think it can explicitly evoke emotion the way painting can, or sculpture or poetry, music, you know, different art forms. So I think that explicit expression is what it takes to have a cultural identity. Right. Like, there needs to be something that explicitly identifies as culture. Like, yeah, it's. I don't know if it's fair for me to say that. I think it's a flawed question, but I do think it's almost a flawed question because I think bonsai as an art medium, just like it's a beautiful art form and all that. I'm not trying to like, dismiss it, but it's an art media that is limited creativity. Creatively, it's limited. Like a tree can only be a tree. You can't, you can't change that. You can express that this tree has experienced like hardship and it's got damage as a result of that. You can express it like it's a beautiful looking tree. It's like the Romanticized image of a tree express. It has pretty flowers during certain seasons. And those things can evoke emotion. Right, But I don't think it can specifically evoke emotion. Like you cannot. You cannot tell the story of Saturn devouring his son through bonsai. It's impossible. Gotcha. [02:29:22] Speaker B: That's a complex answer to a complex question. [02:29:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:29:28] Speaker B: Very nice. [02:29:29] Speaker C: I like it. [02:29:32] Speaker B: Okay, maybe a few more. [02:29:34] Speaker C: Yeah, as long as. As long as you have time. So I'm. I'm not. If you've got obligations, you know, you can end it whenever you're ready. [02:29:43] Speaker B: How's your. How are you doing sleep wise? Are you feeling pretty tired or are you feeling okay? [02:29:49] Speaker C: I'm good. Yeah, Totally fine. I'll probably do the same thing tonight. [02:29:54] Speaker B: What's tonight's subject gonna be? [02:29:57] Speaker C: I don't. It could be anything. I have no idea yet. It's. Once I lay down, I just. I find something and I get sucked into it. [02:30:07] Speaker B: Gotcha. Okay. Okay, so question is, can copper wire dust be harmful? When to breathe, when wiring. [02:30:27] Speaker C: Okay, so I posted something about that because, like, a lot of. A lot of the copper that I've been using that's been produced here in the US has a lot of oxidation on the outside. And I think that oxidation is not actually copper. And I there I thought it was, but I think I just kind of wasn't thinking straight because that oxidation is probably coming from material that was wrapped around the wire and burnt off. So it's pretty much carbon. But even so, you're inhaling that like particulate matter and like, I know at the end of the day my nose is full of black gunk and like, I'll get a cough, you know, during repotting season. It's the same thing with all the akadama dust, but copper as a spray, like using copper fungicide, it is really toxic. If you get it in your eyes, it can cause blindness. So I think. I think probably wiring. You're not breathing in the dust like I originally thought, but you are breathing. Well, you're not breathing copper dust, but you are breathing in like whatever that residue is, which isn't good either, but maybe not as bad as I originally thought. [02:31:58] Speaker B: This is an interesting one. I feel like we should chat. GPT it. What's interesting is. Go ahead. [02:32:07] Speaker C: No, you. You go ahead. [02:32:10] Speaker B: I was gonna say, back in the day when I used to work with Boon and the Bay Island Bonsai was a big thing. We would have Daisaku Nomoto come over from Japan, and he would come over for the. The Bib show every year, and he'd usually be working on trees the whole time. And he would always wear a mask when he wired. And I was always like, why is he doing that? And then I think I asked him or something, and he said he didn't want to inhale the copper wire. And that kind of freaked me out ever since. And so I can't think, breathing whatever it is that comes off. Because, like, if you bend a piece of copper wire, I do feel like if you look really closely, like, this dust comes off of it. And so that can't be good. And there's got to be something that you could do. Maybe. I'm wondering, can you wash that stuff off? [02:33:13] Speaker C: Yeah, you can. Like, the person making it can, but, you know, it takes more time and effort. Right. But I use some stuff. [02:33:24] Speaker B: Okay. [02:33:24] Speaker C: I don't know. So I've used some copper here in the U.S. produce here in the U.S. in, you know, from different producers, not just one producer making a bad batch. I've used copper that, as I'm wrapping it around the branch, it's spraying into my eyes. And I'm. I'm not gonna throw that. These producers under the bus publicly, you know, again, privately, if you ask me, I tell you, like, yeah, don't buy this. But I think that comes from, like I said, from burning the. Like, if it's a wiring tube, like electrical wire, and you're burning the outer rubber off in a kiln or on a grill or whatever, I think all that carbon is that dust. It's not actually the copper. But still, breathing that in is not good because it gets all in your nose. And, like, yeah, I definitely do get a cough from it. In Japan. The copper is electronic. I think it's heated by electromagnet energy. There's, like. Yeah, there's a way to, like, anneal things with electromagnetivity. I don't know if I'm praising these things, right, but you can actually find, like, that on YouTube. You can see it done. You know, it takes machines, right? But basically it just, within a few seconds, brings it up to, like, hundreds of degrees or however hot, you know? But it's. It's a lot quicker than, like, putting it in a kiln or something. And it doesn't produce that oxidation either. That's why, like, I don't know if you've purchased wire from Japan, but, like, yeah, most. Most wire that you buy from Japan, it's, like, nice and clean, and it's a nice, dull orange color instead of a Shiny copper tone, you know, it doesn't have any oxidation on the outside and it's good stuff. And when you get used to using good stuff and you come using stuff that's spraying into your eyes, you really notice. Yeah, I've used some really, really bad stuff that I would not recommend to anyone. You know, in multiple different states, so. Different producers, different states, different, same bad stuff. [02:35:58] Speaker B: You know, I just looked it up on Chat GPT and it says the powdery residue is copper oxide and surface corrosion, slash patina. And it basically says it's not great to breathe. But occasional isn't. Excuse me, Occasional exposure isn't highly dangerous. So that's good. But that's just the shortened spot. [02:36:25] Speaker C: That's where it becomes, as a bonsai professional, it becomes more worrisome. Right. Because if you're wiring every day. Yeah, yeah. It's long term exposure for like, you know, many days of the year. Like if you're working on a tree. Well, if you're wiring trees every day for a month, the whole month, you're breathing that stuff in and then, you know, you go on your whole life doing it. So, yeah, it's definitely not good. But I, I couldn't bring myself to wear a mask, so I'm just gonna have to rough it out. [02:37:03] Speaker B: That's interesting. I'm gonna do some more looking into that one. That's, that's tough. [02:37:10] Speaker C: Yeah, I, I think that's probably, probably a subject worth actually putting some research into for our own safety. I think it's pretty much been overlooked and not considered to be a health problem. [02:37:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:37:25] Speaker C: But I'm, I'm sure that there, there could be some lasting impacts from it for sure. [02:37:31] Speaker B: I'm glad that you posted about that. Okay, well, that was all the questions. There were a couple other that we basically already answered previously, so I'm not going to hit those ones. I did have something I wanted to ask you about though. In Kokufu, Peter T. Stood next to a giant trident maple. He just posted this picture and I saw you reply to the comment and you were saying that that's Ichi entry, which is really cool. [02:38:00] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:38:00] Speaker B: I was just curious if you could tell me. Well, actually, could you describe this trident first? [02:38:05] Speaker C: Because I, I, it's planted in a pallet. Yeah. [02:38:11] Speaker B: It's freaking huge, massive tree. [02:38:13] Speaker C: It's huge. [02:38:14] Speaker B: It's a badass tree too, right? I mean it's got really nice taper. [02:38:18] Speaker C: But, and there's no open cuts on it. There's no rot on it. Yeah. I've Seen that tree not a bunch of times. And like I've never worked on it. So I chan no longer owns that tree. But my oyakata did own it and he sold it maybe like between 2018 and 2019 he sold it from his field and it's been. He sold it to a customer and that customer had him working on it for a while and then he passed away. So then his entire collection got sold and that tree moved somewhere else and now it's owned by one of his friends. So like that's why I still see it because we'd go there for auction and stuff. But the branch work was not done by my oyakata. Like the original stumps are like I chan grown. But all the ramification and branch making, that's not I chan. But you know, the. The trunk is like, I don't know, it's more than a body thick. It must be like three feet, three and a half feet wide. Like probably even bigger at the nabari because yeah, it's planted in a pallet and it fills that palette up nuts. [02:39:44] Speaker B: Now is that. So is that like. Could you display that in the kokufu or is that too big? Is that like. [02:39:52] Speaker C: I have no idea. [02:39:53] Speaker B: Borderline garden tree size. [02:39:57] Speaker C: I think in reality, yeah, it is borderline garden tree size. But I also think if it was like densely ramified and kokofu quality in a kokofu quality pot, then I bet you it could be put into kokofu. I don't see why it would be turned down because I mean they let in mass massive juniper is a massive pines, so I would assume it could go in. [02:40:22] Speaker B: Yeah, it's not that tall, so I'm sure it could. [02:40:26] Speaker C: No, but it, It's. It's probably four feet tall. [02:40:30] Speaker B: Four feet? What is which. [02:40:32] Speaker C: Yeah, it's probably four feet. [02:40:34] Speaker B: What is the height limit for kokufu? I wonder? Let's. Let's. [02:40:38] Speaker C: I. That. Yeah, that. I don't know. I think I. I know that I've mentioned it on this podcast before, but I've never been to kokufu. I mentioned it earlier in this podcast even. But my oyakata Tanaka son, he is. Well, he was a kokufu judge in the past few years. He's done it a couple times. It's just like we. We didn't participate. [02:41:07] Speaker B: Yeah. So this is becoming just the let's chat gbt. Every single question episode or show, which I don't know if that's good or bad or what, but this says Kokufu has a height limit of 100 cm or 39 inches. Is that right? [02:41:26] Speaker C: That sounds awfully small. [02:41:29] Speaker B: Let's see. [02:41:30] Speaker C: 39 inches is what, like slightly over 3ft? That can't be right. [02:41:37] Speaker B: 100 centimeters. [02:41:40] Speaker C: 100 centimeters. God. I don't know how to convert centimeters to inches. [02:41:46] Speaker B: 100 centimeters. [02:41:49] Speaker C: Yeah. 39 inches. But no, I. I don't think that's totally accurate because I know there's a lot of trees that are more than 3ft tall. [02:41:59] Speaker B: Okay. So it's. This says basically it's 3.3ft tall. So I don't know That's. [02:42:13] Speaker C: That's a big. [02:42:14] Speaker B: That's a big tree. But that would. I don't know. [02:42:19] Speaker C: No, I. I know that's not right. I know that's not right because I've seen some of those trees that are in Kokavu right now, and they're bigger than that. So. Yeah, I mean, that may be like the official rule, but not something that's actually practice. I don't know. [02:42:34] Speaker B: Is that like. Like shohin? Don't they let shohin in that are like a little bit bigger sometimes? Or do they actually struggle? I've heard that every single one of them. [02:42:47] Speaker C: I've heard that, you know, cocofu showing can be bigger. But I will say at an auction, if a tree is 21 cm instead of 20 cm, the price goes down. So it affects the price for the professional. But I don't know if they actually bust out the measuring tape and deny a good show hit. If it's 21cm, they may, you know, they may. I never participated in that stuff, so I can't give, like, factual answers. [02:43:18] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure, for sure. [02:43:21] Speaker C: Cool. Well, and at, like, Mefutan, the. Yeah, at Meifu 10, we. We didn't do. It wasn't that rigid. So, you know. [02:43:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Man, I wonder how many years it took to grow that trident just in terms of, like, the. Just to get to the trunk. No branching. [02:43:43] Speaker C: Well, so that tree was either started by my oyakata's great grandfather or his grandfather, because there's. There's overlap between the generations, you know, and his great grandfather and his grandfather worked together. So, you know, either way, that tree is more than 100 years old. And I. I. Well, on Martin, you know, Martin Diaz, the Icean apprentice from Chile, if you look back on his Instagram page to 2018, you'll see, like, that tree in the ground, and he cut it back to just branch stubs. So you'll see from 2018 until right now how much branch development has happened. And you know how hard he cut it back. He cut it back to stumps. You know, he didn't leave any secondaries or anything like that. So you can make branches pretty quickly that look good, you know, relatively. Right. Like, that's still eight years, but it looks. Yeah. Took a hundred to get the trunk. [02:44:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I. And I also wonder, like, with that trunk, were. Were they, like, oh, like, we actually probably should have stopped growing the trunk, like, at a certain point, but we just got a little late. Not lazy, but we just, like, left it in the field a little too long because I feel like a tree. It's almost too big. Like, just like a. Yeah. Smaller, and it would have been perfect. [02:45:25] Speaker C: I will say candidly that, like, my Oikata told us that there is a time where, like, those huge chart maples that he had in the field, he would dig them up and take them to auction to try and make money when he started out running his own business, you know, and he'd get, like, 200 bucks or 400 bucks for him, and he just. He just stopped because it was, like, not worth the amount of work it took to take the trees up and the amount of time it took the trees. And I know that there was some stuff that was just left untouched, you know, that blew out of proportion. And I don't think that tree was not one of those trees, but I know that, yeah, that that did happen. So it's easy. It's easy to think that, yeah, probably there were some years that they just let it grow too much, and then, you know, they came with a freaking chainsaw and cut it back really hard. And if you look at the trunk, you'll see, like, the. The healed wounds all over that trunk. And there's some massive cuts, but, you know, a healed cuts. A healed cut. I think anyone who says they want a scarless trunk is kind of. Didn't really understand. A healed scar is not a problem. [02:46:41] Speaker B: For sure. For sure. Very cool. Very cool. Well, my fam just got back, so I should probably get helping with them. [02:46:56] Speaker C: Yeah, totally understand. [02:46:58] Speaker B: Any other thoughts or. Or topics or shout outs you want to give? Anything else come to mind? [02:47:11] Speaker C: Gosh, not really. It's easier for me to answer questions than to make my own. I like to make my own subjects. I think I touched down on a lot of stuff, and if there's, you know, nothing you want to talk about real fast and you've got things to do, let's wrap it up. [02:47:32] Speaker B: Cool. Yeah, man. Well, hey, dude, I really enjoy talking with you, and I Think it's funny that we've kind of like built a relationship through podcasts mostly, I think. Yeah, pretty much once in podcasts or. Excuse me, outside of podcast world. Yeah, in real world. In real life. [02:47:52] Speaker C: God, like 10 years ago almost. Yeah. [02:47:57] Speaker B: But anyways, man, I'm. I think what you're doing is really cool and I know that you're going to be very, very successful. We're lucky to have you here in the US If I can help out with anything, like business wise or just anything in general, please let me know. And I would love to do this every once in a while with you. Like, we don't have to do it all the time or anything, but like, just every once in a while would love to check in with you, see how things are going. And it's been fun just getting to know you and chatting back and forth through direct message and yeah, just a fan of everything you're doing and always love chatting with you. [02:48:38] Speaker C: Well, I really appreciate it. I like that you're giving me this opportunity to actually like, you know, talk about bonsai. Kind of just get my opinion out there on a platform where people are actually listening, you know, it's good, it's good for me. And I enjoy talking to you. Like, you're, you're an easy person to talk about bonsai with and I feel like you understand where I'm coming from in my thought processes and my approach to bonsai. So that makes it very enjoyable to talk about bonsai with you. So I have a good time and I appreciate everything you're doing. I think you're exposing a lot of people to bonsai that may not. Well, a higher level of bonsai philosophy from different professionals and different. Even hobbyists. Right. And I think that's like a really good thing for the bonsai community as a whole. So thank you for sure, man. [02:49:34] Speaker B: Awesome, dude. Well, look forward to following along and I'm sure we'll be keeping in touch and hope I get to like, hang out with you sometime in person. [02:49:45] Speaker C: Yeah, we're on the opposite sides of the country, but yeah, there's potential for me to visit California every now and then. Like, I'm not totally limiting myself from travel work. It's just. Yeah, things just have to line up. You know, I never realized how large the state was. I thought, you know, like it could go from LA to. Was it the Bay Area is like 8 hour drive or something like that. Is that right? [02:50:14] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's probably. [02:50:15] Speaker C: Yeah. I never, I never realized it. I thought I Thought they were like one hour or something. I didn't realize how large California was. [02:50:24] Speaker B: Yeah, if you drive from like San Diego up to the tip of California, it's insane. Like, I don't even know if you could do it in a day. It'd be tough. It wouldn't be comfortable, I think. [02:50:37] Speaker C: No, I think it's like a 13 hour drive without traffic, which, you know, California traffic. You may as well add like five hours onto that for sure. Yeah. [02:50:50] Speaker B: Cool, man. Yeah. Well, I think it'd always be really fun to hang out with like you and you and Julian and you should come see Peter's nursery sometimes. Yeah, a ton of nice trees there. Maybe we could take you. Maybe we could do a trip sometime and hit up like either the Sierra or the. What do you call it? The. Or something. [02:51:16] Speaker C: Yeah, I would love to go up in the mountains and see like real Yamadori because it's just, that's something I haven't gotten to experience. So that's something I would love to do. [02:51:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Awesome. Well, hey, if you could just make sure that the upload goes to 100% before you actually close it out. Okay, awesome. But thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. [02:51:40] Speaker C: No, thank you, man. [02:51:41] Speaker B: Yeah, Peace out. [02:51:44] Speaker C: There's See or do I click in? Oh, okay. Okay. I just wasn't sure what was happening. Sorry. [02:51:55] Speaker B: That's all good. [02:51:58] Speaker C: Yeah, I think in the, the near future I'll be able to like, maybe just bring myself to California without needing to work and then, you know, be able just to check out Peter's nursery, go up to the mountains and hang out and you know, Peter has done some amazing things with American Yamadori that hasn't really been accomplished by anyone else in all honesty. So I would like to see what he's got going on and like, see it in person and understand, you know, just by looking. So for sure, very interested in it and always open to the. So for sure try and make it happen someday. [02:52:41] Speaker B: Let's do it, man. [02:52:43] Speaker C: Do it.