Akagitsune Bonsai - Isaiah Gray - Episode #15

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, what's going on? This is Jeremiah Lee and the Black Pondo podcast. Today I had the opportunity of speaking with Isaiah Gray of akagetsune Bonsai. Isaiah has created a truly phenomenal collection in a relatively short amount of time. In fact, I would probably consider his collection one of the best in the United States in terms of us native conifer material. He has some truly incredible trees. It was really inspiring to hear his story about coming to the US without much and hearing about the success he's had in life and through building his bonsai collection. My impression of Isaiah is that he is very intelligent, driven, and he'll find success with any endeavor that he chooses to pursue. I'm stoked to follow along on his journey and see his future contributions to american bonsai. It's been really exciting and fun to follow along on his Instagram, which you can also check out at akagitsunibon. Sai on Instagram that that is spelled aka g I t s u n e b o n s a I. Thank you so much for checking this out. Really appreciate it and hope you enjoyed. [00:01:29] Speaker B: You can't really make in Bonsai, right? Bonsai, the Black Pondo podcast. So Bonsai's about is people having a good time and enjoying themselves. If it's not fun, it's not bonsai bonsai. [00:01:46] Speaker A: Or bonsai bonsai. And Bonsai, bonsai, bonsai. That's my favorite subject. Before. Before we jump into the bonsai stuff, I was just really curious to maybe get to know you a little bit more and learn about you personally, if that's okay. [00:02:03] Speaker B: Sure. I guess I'll start from the very beginning. I'm originally from Singapore. I was a firefighter in my younger days. Canine search and rescue came to the US as foreign aid back in 2000, I want to say. And eventually I moved here in 2004 and, you know, came on my own family. Didn't come with. I was young, broke, naive, and came here with just a couple hundred bucks and figured, you know, I would go to school. I wanted to continue working with animals, so I wanted to become a veterinarian. Settled in Milwaukee for their pre vet program and, yeah, did the undergrad program, and I graduated in 2010. And instead of going to vet school in Madison, I decided to start my first hospital again. Broke, naive, didn't know any better. Decided that, you know, I could do it at that point. I had been a veterinary assistant for about three and a half years. And then, yeah, it's been history since then. 2010. First one to date, we've done about eleven acquisitions, a couple dozen more that I was a part of. And then in 2017, 2018, I started small private equity venture capital fund. The name is Red Fox Fund, which did very well through that. I did a lot of investments and venture capital deals, and, yeah, I liquidated and I wound that down. I want to say 2022. And that's when, you know, I started the whole bonsai thing. And the reason why I picked the name that I picked, it translates to Red Fox, basically using the proceeds from that fund for the collection. So I figured it would be appropriate to call it that. And, yeah, that's, that's me in a nutshell. [00:04:14] Speaker A: Wow, that is incredible. What a, what an inspirational story. And proof that you can do incredible things in the US. Really kind of live in the american dream there, it seems like. [00:04:29] Speaker B: Yeah, there's definitely, you know, I want to say it's all me, but it's not, obviously. It's, it's a lot of luck. It's a lot of being in the right place at the right time, meeting the right people. So, yeah, a lot of credit goes to the people I've met, the places that I've gone, and the experiences I've had, and just been lucky most of anything else. [00:04:52] Speaker A: That is absolutely amazing. Do you travel back to Singapore ever? Have you, have you gone back several times or. [00:05:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I've been back and forth here and there, but not since it's been a few years, because I have three kids, two boys, and I had adopted a little girl. She's five now. But, you know, it's such a long journey that I wasn't sure that either I wouldn't survive the journey with them or they wouldn't survive. Survived on flight. So we've been holding off a little bit on flying back, but I think pretty soon I'll probably go back. My parents, my dad passed away a couple of years ago, but my parents used to fly here annually and stay for about two or three months each year, and so I get my fix, you know, meet my family and whatnot when they visit. [00:05:44] Speaker A: Very cool. And so where are you based out of now? [00:05:49] Speaker B: I'm in the Milwaukee area. Wisconsin. [00:05:53] Speaker A: Milwaukee. Oh, cool. Very nice. Very nice. I actually have some investment properties out in the Kenosha area. Yeah, was out there not too long ago, actually. I did a quick trip for work. I was out there for maybe, like, three days or so, but my first time in Milwaukee. Really nice area. [00:06:19] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, specifically Franklin. So I want to say about 30 minutes from Kenosha. It's, it's a good area. You know, there's people always. Obviously, the city of Milwaukee has its own problems, but the suburban areas, really, really nice. [00:06:35] Speaker A: Very cool. Very cool. Awesome. How old are your other kids? [00:06:40] Speaker B: The youngest, the girl is five, and my two other sons, they're ten, and one will be turning 13. [00:06:48] Speaker A: Ah, gotcha. Gotcha. Very nice. Yeah, I just got back from a trip to Disneyland, actually, with my two little ones, and we had a great time. Really fun. So that's fantastic. I love being a father. [00:07:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. [00:07:07] Speaker A: Awesome. So, Isaiah, I'm curious. How long have you been into bonsai? I know your Instagram story started not too long ago, or, excuse me, not your story, but your page started not too long ago. And I'm just blown away by how incredible of a collection you've put together in what seems like a very short time. But I guess. How long have you been into bonsai? [00:07:33] Speaker B: Yeah, so I. Obviously, coming from Singapore, I've had exposure to it when I was younger. There's people collect there, practitioners there, but I never really got into it back home, frankly. I started, and I can remember this because it's marked by holiday, but Memorial Day 2022 was when I purchased my first couple of trees. It was during a memorial Day sale from Brussels Bonsai. So it's only been two years. [00:08:05] Speaker A: Wow. Okay. Yeah. So for anyone listening, I guess your collection is truly world class. I'd highly recommend going and checking out your instagram. It is just so incredible. The trees on there are some of the best in the US. I'm a big fan of Yamadori, so I have really enjoyed following along. And that's pretty incredible that since 2022, you've been able to put together such a. Such a world class collection in such a short amount of time. Have you always been a collector of things? [00:08:41] Speaker B: I'm curious. So I think it started back in my firefighting days. You know, I was a firefighter for. At a young age. I was 18 when I started, till I was about 2021. And I'll be honest, it wasn't. It's not a typical firefighting experience, I guess, my american counterparts experience, because firefighters back home, we do session rescue, an urban session rescue, foreign aid and so on and so forth. So there's definitely. There was definitely difficult experiences that I've had, you know, people suffering so and so forth, especially when we did, when you travel around the areas where there's casualties and so on and so forth. So I think when that. When I experienced that early on, one thing that I quickly understood or rather, maybe it's for my sanity or the way that I cope was to actually search out for the best of humanity. Right. The things that we do. That's amazing. That's the pinnacle of what men and women can do. So, in that sense, I've always pursued everything that I've pursued, even in the venture capital work, investment work that I did. The investments has always been driven by investing in people versus investing in businesses. I got into the automotive performance world, so, yeah, that was another page that I had started a while back. It's been inactive, but it showcased the different cars and projects that we did and the people that worked in that field. So I don't. I don't know if I've been always, always been a collector of things, but I've definitely been someone who seeks out the best abilities, the best products that people create. I think that's the glimmer, the hope that I have for our species as a whole and what we can do. [00:10:50] Speaker A: Fantastic. Very nice. I'm curious, what bonsai professionals have you been working with now? [00:10:59] Speaker B: So, most of my classes and training has been with Ryan Neal and Todd Schlafer. They either fly out to my place and work on my trees, or I've been out to Mirai a couple of times. I was out at Todd's last week, actually. It was a social visit, but we ended up working on a couple of trees. It's always fun to kind of see, you know, what he collected recently and kind of discuss different things. You know, we had a conversation about nutrition while I was there and a few other projects. That's in the pipeline, so it's always a good time spending a spending days with those two. And, you know, when you're working on trees the whole day, conversations obviously move on from just trees, but also life, business, and everything else. So they're good people. I really enjoy not just their work, not just their professional abilities, but also as people. They're just really cool guys. [00:12:08] Speaker A: That's awesome. Yeah. I am a big fan of both of them. Both seem like absolutely awesome guys. I feel like Todd in particular, just seems like the nicest guy ever, and there's some people out there that I feel like I would just love to be friends with, even though I don't know Todd or Ryan all that much. They just seem like the Coolest guys, really down to Earth. Todd. Is he super nice in person? Like, he seems absolutely. [00:12:39] Speaker B: Todd is a big teddy bear. I mean, he is super nice. I can't even say how nice he is. He's just always hospitable, always bending over backwards to help the most gentle soul out there. And even as a teacher, you know, obviously, I've been in classes with other professionals where they're a bit more harsh, a bit more direct, but that's not Todd. Todd is super gentle, super patient, and always open to ideas. Like, I'm sure I have some crazy ideas sometimes when we are designing trees together and he entertains them and, you know, most of it works out, but there's times where I'm like, yeah, that's probably a stupid idea. But he goes with that. Yeah. Frankly, seeing Ryan, I had the pleasure of spending a couple days in Bjorn when I picked up covers of these trees. And same thing. Bjorn is another awesome, awesome guy. And I had reached out to him when he was living for Japan, and I said, you know, it was a huge loss to american bonsai with him leaving, but these guys, I want to say, almost every single professional that I've had the pleasure of meeting and working and spending time with has been amazing. [00:13:54] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. You picked three great ones to work with. What's Todd's new place like? I know he had seemed like he had a million trees in a smaller backyard, but now he's moved on to a new spot, and he has more room, and it looks like he's building his bonsai garden. How does it look like it's coming along from your perspective? [00:14:17] Speaker B: It's coming along really nicely. I think last year was a big jump when he built that giant structure, that pergola structure. And when I was there last, last week, the trees were thriving. He has a new protocol that he's kind of investing, investing in and researching on and experimenting, and the trees are absolutely healthy. The structure worked through winter like you should have. I think the year before when he didn't have the structure, there were some struggles with how to protect the trees, but this year they've been amazing, and it looks aesthetically awesome. There's still a couple of things that he wants to build, like a show garden area, and he's officially greenhouse, but otherwise the classroom area, the work workshop. Awesome. Amazing. His point of pride is the fact that the workshop has ac. Yeah. And he always points that out, like, you'll never have to suffer if you come to class here. Last week, Denver had 100 degree weather, and he turned that baby up, and he was comfortable working in there. So, yeah, things are going really well for him. The garden looks really, really nice. He was able to kind of rearrange the trees. It looks really good. I know he had one ponderosa that he had finished ready for the Pacific bonsai coming up, and, yeah, the place doing really, really well. [00:15:52] Speaker A: Oh, that's so great to hear. Awesome. And is the structure. Were you talking about, is that to protect from hail? Is that the primary issue that he was dealing with previously? [00:16:05] Speaker B: It's both hail, but it was also heat and wind. I think it was just most of the heat and wind that was an issue the previous year. So the structure was able to give partial shade, and he's able to adjust, you know, make some adjustments to the structure to appropriately protect the trees. For example, he was putting tarp on the sides of the poles, the posts, and so he created, like, a enclosed structure during winter and also controlling the wind and the sun. So, yeah, it does all of the above. Hail, I think, was an issue last year, but since he's had the structure, he said Denver has not had any hail. Go figure, right. Once you build the protection, it doesn't happen. But, yeah, it does a lot. It's capable. Capable of doing a lot. And I actually stole some ideas from his structure with building my greenhouse here, and it's working out well. [00:17:06] Speaker A: Very cool. Very cool. Yeah, I've seen the. The pictures that you posted of your greenhouse. That's really exciting. When do you think you'll have your greenhouse finished? Or is it finished already? [00:17:19] Speaker B: So the structure went up. I. I finished the framing for the greenhouse itself, and there's actually two pergolas attached on either side of the greenhouse. So finish the right side pergola. I think that's the photo that I put up. The left side still needs to go up, but, you know, like all things, this always hiccups with construction, and I'm doing a lot of this on my own. I have people that help, but this is still based upon my efforts. And, of course, ideas changed during construction. I had put, gosh, 16 yards worth of stone down, and the last week we've been removing it because it wasn't right stone. Once it was laid down, I figured, nope, this is not right stone. So we've had to dig it all up and kind of get more stone and put it back down. So that's put us back. I want to say my heart deadlines, obviously, the fall, so winter, I'll have the protection, but I think I'm hoping to get it done sooner rather than the fall. I think the big thing, once the actual structure is up, is engineering the panels, because I wanted panels that will allow the greenhouse to be completely open. So we're using the twin wall polycarbonate panels. We're doing it where it's collapsible. So the way it looks right now, where it's completely open, is how you'll be during the warm months. And in the winter, I'll be able to shut everything in. [00:18:49] Speaker A: That's fantastic. I'm curious. So I want to ask you more about the greenhouse, but was curious, what did you dislike about the stone that you put down? [00:18:58] Speaker B: So this. Hopefully, someone can learn from my stupid mistake I had last year. Previous year, I had a pergola up, and I had used a quarter inch stone initially figuring, you know, that way it's more compact, it wouldn't shift as much. But because it was so fine, every step that you took actually left the footprint. That was how fine it was. And so this go around, I decided, okay, let's go bigger. I went with an inch and a half. Problem with that is it's so loose and so uneven that when I put down any of the tables and benches, it just doesn't sit right. So when I visited Todd last week, I asked him the size that he used. And so I think the ideal size for anybody out there wanting to put down Stone should be three quarter inch. And so I I think it's an opportunity for me to also pick a different colored stone that had originally wanted. And, yeah, so three quarter inch is the right amount of fineness where you can get that flat surface and not have a wobbly bench, but not so small that, you know, it shifts every time you take a step in it. [00:20:12] Speaker A: Ah, pro tip there. Very nice. I like it. What. What color is. Is the final one that you're going. Going with? [00:20:21] Speaker B: I think it will be, like, a black or dark gray color. I was actually walking in my neighborhood, and there's some new construction, and I saw a few houses that they use instead of mulch, they used that stone. I was like, hey, that's a really sharp color. One of the things that I want, you know, my personal aesthetics. Definitely a more modern, clean design. So that black, I think, will ground the floor a little bit more. It'll go well with the stainless steel tables that I have. [00:20:55] Speaker A: Very nice. Yeah, I like that darker, either dark gray black type color. I think Ryan at Marai, there's a similar stone, right? [00:21:05] Speaker B: Yeah, I believe so. I think he uses a pretty dark gray color. And even though I've been there four times, I can't even picture right now, because when you're there, the only thing you're, you know, looking at other trees. It's an amazing, amazing garden. And the trees are just like, awe inspiring. So the focus whenever I'm there has always been the trees. But I think you're right. I think it is a darker gray. [00:21:32] Speaker A: I have not been to marae, but I definitely on my list, I would really like to get there and need to get there, actually. So I hope to get there at the, some point soon. Yeah. [00:21:45] Speaker B: The upgrades they've made this past year or so, you know, with the structure, that cotton steel structure for the shade. And right now, obviously, he's working on the house and he's tying architectural elements for both the garden and the house. And it's just amazing. It's just, yeah, it's definitely a labor of love, obviously, you know, the amount of money you spend on projects like that, you'll never get back. And I always joke with him, you know, whenever he's ready to retire, I'll pay him the zillow estimate for a two bedroom house in St. Helens and get a hell of a deal. [00:22:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He has that, that shade structure that he put up. That's like the ultimate shade structure right there. I don't, I don't know if anyone's probably spent more on a shade structure, I would imagine, but it turned out absolutely incredible. It's beautiful. So good job. [00:22:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I think the use of that cotton steel was just ingenious. And I've been, I know that he had a couple of plantings of trees using corten steel as the container, and I've bugged him a couple of times to kind of see what he's done to kind of make that possible. And his, his dodged question. Yeah, there's something beautiful about that rusting patina steel, you know, and, yeah, it looks really good. [00:23:15] Speaker A: Absolutely. So now your bonsai benches, they look incredible. Very beautiful. So are, those are stainless steel. Those are not. They. They won't rust. Is that correct? [00:23:28] Speaker B: They won't rust. So I went with stainless steel. Yeah, I just went with plain stainless steel, but I had it treated and I used some of the methods that I've learned in the automotive performance world. So we treated it obviously, reflectivity and also heat was a concern. So we had to kind of be careful with that. One other thing that I had not, I don't think I've posted yet, but, you know, the stainless steel, I had designed these wooden sleeves that kind of wraps around it. So I wanted to incorporate the warmth of wood with the modern aesthetic lines of steel. And it wraps around the, the top where the trees sit, so that also helps with heat transfer. We actually left one of the tables out in the sun before we used it and kept going out there with a temp gun to just check on the temperature and it never really got that high. Maybe not in Milwaukee, but it never really got dangerously high to begin with. But I wanted to be sure, you know? So I decided to design that wooden sleeve that goes over it. [00:24:46] Speaker A: Ah, very nice. Very nice. Yeah, that. I think that's smart for temperature wise. And it looks really nice too. [00:24:53] Speaker B: Thanks. [00:24:54] Speaker A: Okay, so we're back. I'm so sorry about that. I do apologize. That was totally my bad. My computer just decided to restart on me. [00:25:02] Speaker B: No problem. [00:25:03] Speaker A: And I'm sorry. [00:25:05] Speaker B: Technology for you. [00:25:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Anyways, yeah, we were. So we were talking about garden design. I was curious, did you consult with Ryan in your greenhouse build and did, did he give you any good tips or suggestions on what's important within building a greenhouse? [00:25:23] Speaker B: I had ran by some ideas with him and he gave me some things to watch out for. I think the big things like wood, obviously eventually rots in there, so we made sure to use treated lumber. And the H vac system is probably the most complicated part of it all. And my greenhouse itself is only twelve by 24ft, so it's not as large as, like mirror eyes. So H Vac wasn't as complicated. But I can see how, you know, you need more control as it gets larger. So, yeah, he had some ideas that was really, really helpful with my thought process design wise. I already had an idea of what I wanted. So there's some similarities, definitely, with, I think they call it post and beam design, which is what I wanted. And I spoke with a designer out in New York who builds custom buildings. And I want to also use this brand called Toya grid that I've used in my previous pergola. So I wanted to use those brackets as well. And that's how we came about with the design. I think the panels is still a little bit, requires a little bit of engineering to sort out just because of how collapsible I want it to be. But you'll have, you know, the exhaust fans. I'm actually putting a mini split in there to both heat and cool so you can control temperature and, you know, the roof panels being able to open and close and whatnot. So it's a little bit of engineering, but because of the smaller size, it's nothing easier than something larger like Ryan's. And. [00:27:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Gotcha. For anyone listening out there, what are the advantages of having a greenhouse for yourself? [00:27:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I had this conversation with Todd and Ryan, I think early last year when the collection started getting, you know, it was obvious the direction was going. And after that first winter, we talked about, okay, how greenhouse could really help. You know, I've been using my detached garage to protect trees. Obviously, people have successfully winterized trees outside, but it was just not a. Because of the trees that I have, it wasn't a risk I was willing to take. So when I used my detached garage, I had to install h vac system to make sure it stays above freezing, but below 40 degrees. So it was able to consistently maintain. I think according to my attempt probes, about 37 was the average throughout the two winters. The problem was there was no sunlight. And so seeing as how the majority of my collection are conifers, there was some concern about even though they're dormant, not having any sunlight could be detrimental in the long run. So for me, the greenhouse, one that you can adjust, allows me to minimize the fall and the winter and the spring shuffle that we're all too familiar with as bonsai practitioners. And when you have a ten pound tree, shuffling is easy. But when you have a 400 pound Yamadori that's recovering, it's a bit of a bear when you have to use the skid steer to shuffle them in and out. So for me, the greenhouse is just an environment that I can control specifically through winter and minimize any damage and moving that I'd have to do with these trees. But I don't necessarily think it's a necessity for everybody, obviously. And there's definitely issues. You know, there's days where we get 50, 60 degree winter days. And if in a traditional greenhouse, the greenhouse can go up to 80, 90 degrees, and you definitely want to avoid that. So the greenhouse, even though it has perks, there's complications that you have to keep an eye for. And that's when exhaust fans and roof panels that open and even ac mini split unit that throws ac and can cool back down would be a big help. So there's definitely pros and cons. You just have to keep in mind of the tool as a whole and use it to your advantage. [00:30:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like greenhouse and overwintering is something that I really don't know a whole lot about. And mostly because I live here on the central coast of California where the climate is very, very mild. In fact, I think there's like a jeopardy question and it's what's the most consistent weather within northern America? And the answer is Napomo, which is like the city that I live in. So I don't know. Fortunately and unfortunately I haven't had to deal with that. I guess the downside to not having to deal with really cold winters is that I can't grow a lot of the types of trees like high mountain pines. I don't think they would do well here long term, but I haven't really had to deal with that. My trees are on the bench 365 days a year and it's, it's both nice. But then I'm also, you know, I wish I could grow certain types of trees and keep them here. So pluses and minuses to everything I think. But that's great that you have such a great tool to use in that greenhouse because it just gives you so much more control. And that bone size shuffle looks like you have one of the, the absolute worst bone size shuffles that anyone could have. [00:31:33] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't want to say it was fun but I think this past winter has been really difficult because we actually had a very mild winter for Wisconsin and it was above freezing for a lot of days. So there was quite a bit of shuffling that I had to do this year. And you know, there's very few days where I question what I'm doing with these trees. But I remember not too long ago I had started a new business and I was pulling I think like a 90 hours workweek and it was, I was coming home around nine at night and the forecast showed that it was going to be below freezing and at that point it's too far into spring. And I remember it was like 930. Ten. And I'm pushing and pulling all the trees in and out using the skid steer, using the pallet jacks. And I'm like what am I doing here? And I remember that night pretty clearly because that's probably one of the worst shuffles that I had to do because I had such a small window of opportunity to move them around. [00:32:40] Speaker A: Oh my gosh. Yeah. I can't, I cannot even imagine 90 hours, that's a long, that's a lot, that's a lot of hours. And coming home to that would not be fun at all. [00:32:53] Speaker B: No. Yeah. Unless that's the nature of any new businesses I guess. [00:32:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, so I also, one thing I don't have all that much knowledge about is just the tools that you utilize to move trees around. Although I use a hydraulic table cart and I have a pretty beefy one. I think it's, what was it? Maybe I can't remember, it's, it can hold quite a bit of weight. I want to say like ah shoot, 4000 pounds or something crazy like that. Is that right? [00:33:30] Speaker B: Oh wow. Nice. Yeah. [00:33:33] Speaker A: But anyways, so you use a skid. What was that called again? [00:33:39] Speaker B: A skid steer. [00:33:41] Speaker A: Skid steer. Okay. And now that is different than a dingo, is that correct? [00:33:47] Speaker B: So a dingo is just actually a brand brand name. A skitsir is the formal type of equipment. So dingo is technically a skitsier. They call it compact Skitsir or mini Skitsir. But dingo is, I can't remember the brand. I think it's Turo is the brand. I'm not exactly sure, but that dingo is just the model name for that particular brand. For me, I have a bobcat. So bobcat MT 100. So that's the equivalent of a dingo. So it's the same thing. [00:34:22] Speaker A: Ah, very nice, very nice. And can it lift all of your trees and accommodate them easily or do some of your trees and just for anyone listening, I think you have some of the largest bonsai that I've ever seen. In fact, I don't know if, if everyone would even consider them bonsai size, you know, but they are absolutely incredible trees and yeah, I. Can you accommodate them and move them around? Okay with that? [00:34:54] Speaker B: Yeah. So yeah, this spring I actually jumped on an upgrade on the skid steer. I had an empty 55, which basically means the max weight is 550 pounds for that machine. And there were a couple of trees that Bjorn's tornado in fact was definitely on the limit of my skid steer. So I did decide to upgrade to the next model up. So the current skid steer can handle everything except for one tree that just arrived a couple months ago. It's a giant one seed. But the reason why it's so heavy is because it's still recovering in a big box. And it's from Richard Lee, the collector that also collected most of the one seeds in Bjorn's garden. So after I, Bjorn had left and I had taken over the tornado, I had, you know, met him and he had a couple of trees that he was literally just collecting and he collected them and two days later he's at my doorstep dropping them off. And yeah, that, that particular tree definitely, I can't move it. I have to use a pallet jack that has like a 3000 pound limit because I'm pretty sure that thing is twelve 1300 pounds with the collection box. [00:36:15] Speaker A: Geez. Wow. That, that's insane. What, what do skid steers run around like I'm just curious. Someday I would love to get one. Do you know how much they cost? [00:36:33] Speaker B: Yeah, they. It just depends on the size. Right. I think the MT 55, which is the size of the dingo equivalent. I want to say you can get a used one for ten to 15 grand. And new they run about, you know, mid twenties, almost 30 grand depending on the attachments because it's just usually just the machine. And you have to purchase attachments like a bucket or forklifts, which is what I use to pick up most of the trees. And so they, they can be as low as 1015. But it also depends on, you know, know we're talking about used obviously versus new. The next level up you start going to the $30 to $40,000 machines. But I think most bonsai practitioners won't need anything that large. But yeah, they're nice because they go over all terrain whereas you know, I have this pellet jack and it doesn't go over turf really well, nor rock. So it's nice to be able to blow through any country and carry the trees through. [00:37:46] Speaker A: Oh, that's great. That's great. Do you also ever use a hydraulic table cart? [00:37:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I have one of those and the one that I used didn't have the capacity that I needed. So I'm actually interested in the one that you're using that goes up to 4000 pounds because that would be awesome to be able to lift trees that, you know, even to work on them because right now I've been using cinder block to raise the height of some of these large trees and where as we're repotting them or working on them. So yeah, I'll be interested to find out what, what cart you're using. [00:38:29] Speaker A: Yeah. And so I'm trying to find right now because I think I misspoke on the 4000 pounds. That seems like too much now that I'm thinking about it. But I. I know it's at least 1200 pounds. Let me see. Let's see if I can find it really quick. In my old. I got it on Amazon. But it's nice. It has the pneumatic wheels so it's like the soft rubber wheels that you can blow up. [00:38:55] Speaker B: Oh, nice. And yeah, that's even better. [00:38:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And it, it's definitely very strong and can lift quite a bit. But I can't imagine it before thousand pounds. That just seems like crazy. But the one I got is very nice quality. Let me try and look it up. Although it might take a sec here. [00:39:17] Speaker B: Okay. [00:39:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you know what type you have of hydraulic cart? [00:39:26] Speaker B: Well, the one I have, yeah. It's, it's kind of like a pallet jack. That scissors up. Gosh. I got it from Uline, to be honest. It's just like a warehouse kind of pallet jack, but it scissors up. So it rises to, I want to say 36 or 40 inches high. And so it turns from a pellet jack into like a table, basically. And I've been using that primarily to lift trees to work on them when they're too large if I'm not using cinder blocks to prop them up. [00:40:02] Speaker A: Gotcha. Yeah, it's definitely nice and convenient to work on a hydraulic table cart just because you can raise and lower the tree, you know? [00:40:11] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. [00:40:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, unfortunately, shoot. I'm looking through my Amazon orders. I can't find it. It was a while back, but I got it right on Amazon. I think it's 1200 pounds. I want to say I'll send it to you afterwards, though. And unfortunately, do you know the heaviest tree that you have? Approximately. Like, would you guess how much weight it is? [00:40:38] Speaker B: Well, I think the issue is when they're in bonsai parts, they're not that heavy. I think the heaviest potted trees, probably 400 pounds, maybe 300 pounds, which I'm guessing is Bjorn's tornado that we just repotted. But, yeah, that would be the heaviest. I can't see a potted tree to be a thousand pounds. So, yeah, if it's a 1200 pound max load, that'd be more than sufficient for me. Me. [00:41:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Very nice. Very nice. Okay. We'll definitely send it to you and I'm sorry for not having it. [00:41:18] Speaker B: No, no worries. Thanks. [00:41:20] Speaker A: So when you repotted that, the tree that you got from Bjorn is the tornado or twister is. What was the name on that twister? [00:41:32] Speaker B: I think he called it a tornado. It might be called a twister. I don't remember. That was a japanese name for it. But I thought it was the tornado. But it could be the twister. I might be wrong there, but, yeah, that is the one seed juniper that he had in his garden. That was, you know, he had to build a gantry to repot it the first time. [00:41:56] Speaker A: Yeah, I was curious how you repotted that bad boy. [00:42:01] Speaker B: I'm sorry you broke up there for a second. [00:42:04] Speaker A: Yeah, I was curious how you repotted it. Like did you have to build a similar structure in order to lift the tree or, you know, I've never repotted a tree that, that large. [00:42:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I had. I needed all hands on deck this past spring, both Todd and Ryan and a couple of Mirai students actually flew out to my place and the bunch of us repotted it, and we actually just did it by hand. We used wood, kind of leveraged some areas, and we were able to lift it out of the container, and it wasn't too bad. The root ball on the tree is actually pretty darn small. I don't know if you've seen the video of b o r repotting the first time, but it has remained. You know, there was a lot of fine roots, but definitely not that large for a tree that size. So it was pretty. It was something we were able to handle pretty okay. Without. Without a gantry or anything like that. Obviously, it's also reduced from when it was in collection box when Bjorn had to tackle it. So it wasn't exactly apples to apples, but it was definitely something that we had to think through, find the right leverage points. All credit goes to, obviously, Todd and Ryan. This is when I stepped back as the amateur bonsai practitioner. I let the professionals kind of step in and let them figure out what's the best way to do it. [00:43:39] Speaker A: Ah, gotcha, gotcha. Yeah. So that tree is just so beautiful and incredible. I think it's, you know, one of my all time favorite collected junipers in the United States. It's such a beautiful, beautiful example of Yamadori, and I'm very happy to see that, that you ended up purchasing that from Bjorndev. Absolutely incredible tree. Just so twisty. I remember somehow I stumbled across some pictures of it when Richard Lee originally collected it, and I was just like blown away by how incredible of a tree it is and was. [00:44:22] Speaker B: Yeah, Richard, as a collector, he actually has some crazy, crazy trees. Not all have has been in bonsai practitioners hands. I think quite a few actually end up being, what do you call that? Planted in people's landscapes. But that particular tree, I remember seeing it back when I picked up the bolt and El capitan from Bjorn, first time I visited him, I remember seeing it and we had joked about me buying it. I'm like, no way. Because of the size. And it was definitely one of the streets where I never thought would end up in my collection. But I think it was just the right opportunity. Obviously, Bjorn was leaving and needed a new caretaker for it, and it just lined up. I definitely, he had approached me last, I want to say, september, when he was here in Milwaukee for the Milwaukee Bonsai Society's annual club show. He was the guest of honor. And that was when he approached me about that tree and I remember he had emailed me a couple months beforehand saying, now would I be interested in the one seed? And I thought he was talking about another tree. Did not have any plans or any idea that it was going to be that particular one seed, juniper. And when we met in September, he showed me I. The photo of the exact tree, and I was like, yeah, if we can make this happen, sure. And then two weeks later, the tree was on a truck and here and unloaded it. And I was fortunate enough to be able to show that tree at a local folk fair, the Milwaukee annual holiday folk fair. And that was, I think, the only time that tree has ever been shown in public setting. And I wanted to, you know, make sure I took the opportunity, because obviously, I knew I was going to repot it this year, and I wanted to showcase it in that particular potting angle and design that Bjorn had done. [00:46:33] Speaker A: Oh, man, I can't even imagine. Well, first off, can't imagine you moving it to the folk fair. But then I'm also just envisioning someone who's never seen bonsai before, and they come into the folk fair, and this is the first impression of bonsai that they're saying how ridiculous that must be and how incredible. Like, I mean. Oh, that tree is just. [00:46:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I. [00:46:56] Speaker A: Phenomenal. [00:46:58] Speaker B: Yeah. I had paired it with a Doug fir, a mother daughter composition Doug fir that Ryan had done the year before that was probably equally. I don't say equally large, but it's pretty big. And so I brought both those trees, and it was, you know, on. On the ground, on a small stand, so it was both pretty big. I think they anchored the whole area of smaller trees. So that was a good outing. [00:47:26] Speaker A: It's. It's awesome that you showed that. Do you think that it will make future show appearances? Those two trees, I mean, they're just so hard, so hard to move around, but you've done it once, so. [00:47:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, I think I figured out the logistics of moving such trees. I think, you know, the having a lift gate on a vehicle really, really helps. And then it's just a question of using a pellet jack and moving them around that way so there's a high likelihood that they'll be shown again. You know, I started this full endeavor, and the main goal was always to perpetuate specifically american bonsai, and the artists, the ceramicists, the collectors, all the species, all american, all around. So I think having trees such as that be put out in the public's eye helps achieve that goal. To perpetuate and make it more mainstream and make it more approachable and be able to showcase what America has to offer in this particular art form. [00:48:42] Speaker A: Beautiful. Beautiful. And I'm so glad to hear that you are open to showing trees more in the future and showing that one in particular. Those two in particular. Just incredible examples of American Yamadori and just absolutely awe inspiring. Just out of curiosity, are you going to be attending the Pacific Bonsai Expo this year? Speaking of shows, yeah, I got my. [00:49:07] Speaker B: Tickets and my t shirts last week, I think, so my plan is to attend. I was flirting with the idea of showing a couple of trees, but this first half of the year has just been crazy for me personally on the work side, so I missed the deadline. But, yeah, I'll definitely be attending. Are you planning to be there? [00:49:29] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I'm planning to be there. And that's. I'm great. Very excited about the show. I think it will be absolutely incredible. I think it'll be better than last year's or, excuse me, not last year's, but the previous one, the first one. And I hope I get to meet you in person. [00:49:47] Speaker B: Yeah, we'll have to message and figure out a spot to meet up. It's always funny because most of the bonsai practitioners I. I meet up with we make friends or make contact digitally via Instagram or whatever before I ever meet them in person. So, yeah, just let me know where you'll be and I'll be there. [00:50:10] Speaker A: Fantastic. Will do. And I hope that you do show in the future. I mean, I think that any trees from your collection would be a great benefit to the expo and would look forward to seeing those there. So was curious. What do you think about. [00:50:28] Speaker B: I'll definitely do it. [00:50:29] Speaker A: Yeah? Yeah. What do you think about the one seed foliage? I'm curious, like, in terms of our native junipers, how does one seed foliage rank for you? And are you a big fan of it? I've heard good things about it. I actually don't know if I've seen a one seed in person, actually. [00:50:50] Speaker B: I am. I'm a huge fan of them, to be honest. They're probably my favorite type of juniper foliage. They're not as coarse as, let's say, a Sierra, and they're not as fine as Rocky Mountain. So they're somewhere in the middle. But they have the pros of both sides where you have the details of a rocky mountain, but the rigidity of a Sierra, you know, my only other favorite would be a rocky mountain. That I call them, like a clumping style rocky mountain. I noticed that there's, there's two types of foliage. Rocky Mountain. One that we all know is floppy and long, and then there's some that just naturally compact and turgid. I think those are definitely my favorite foliage. The one seed has been awesome. They're easy to style. They, they hold shape really, really well. And because they're a dentist desert species health wise, they actually, they're very vigorous. They actually have less prone to diseases. Bjorn echoed the same experience that he has. Obviously, he has had plenty of one seed junipers. And I think, in my opinion, the Rocky Mountain and the Sierra junipers, they tend to have, I don't see more health issues, but they're definitely more fragile with how they grow. They're more sensitive to nutritional input. I know the Sierras, for example, I'm on the apical nutrition, and the sierras definitely require a little bit more adjustments to the nutrition. Rocky Mountains. If nutrition is on point, the floppy foliage gets even floppier. I've been successful with getting that type of foliage a little bit more turgid with the right nutrition, but it's still, you know, compared to one seed. I would much rather work on a one seed compared to the, the other foliages. [00:53:03] Speaker A: Gotcha. Okay. Very nice. Yeah, I mean, it looks really, really nice in the pictures. I would love to see it up close and in person and see what it looks like. Exactly. And I do feel like with all of our junipers, all of our native junipers, there's a lot of genetic variability. Usually when I'm looking at my sierras, for example, I'll rate the foliage in my mind, kind of like on a one to ten scale. And personally, if it's below, like a seven, I will graft just in terms of. So ten being the highest, highest quality, one being the lowest. So I'd say if it's below a seven, my plan would generally be to graft something, or if it has a lot of berries on it, or if it's very weepy. But yeah, the one seed looks really nice from pictures. Give me your thoughts. I'm curious. One thing that I think about is, do you think that the full, the size of the foliage should be in proportion to the size of the tree? [00:54:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I think whenever I look at the design as a whole, aesthetic. Right. I always look at a full view of it all, from proportions to the lines, to even the base, and even where we place foliage and pads. So I think it's really important for there to be proportionality between the foliage and the size of the tree, I think I struggle with it less simply because my trees are really large. But I could definitely see how smaller trees would struggle with the coarseness of a sierra, for example, and even pondos. I think quite a few practitioners have been successful with getting pondo rosa needles smaller. But on a smaller tree, those long needles, especially after domestication, could be a struggle. [00:55:10] Speaker A: I would agree with you 100% on all those points. I think. I really like to think about the proportion of the foliage in relationship to the size of the tree and the overall composition, and I like them to be in line. So I think bigger trees can support bigger foliage, whereas smaller trees, I like to see a finer, less coarse foliage on them. For me, like, say, any small. Yeah, small Sierra. I've really had trouble trying to keep the Sierra foliage. It just doesn't work right. It doesn't look correct. You can't create a composition that's in proportion with each other. But I guess with. With really big trees, you go either way. [00:55:54] Speaker B: Are you. [00:55:56] Speaker A: What are your thoughts on grafting trees? Do you, do you like the idea of potentially grafting overdose for different foliage quality, or do you like to always keep the native? [00:56:07] Speaker B: I always try to keep it native if I can, you know, but obviously, there's situations where it makes more sense to graft. I'm not against it. I actually have one seed, juniper from Bjorn, that he had grafted, I think, using itogawa or shimpaku. I'm pretty sure it was itogawa. It's doing well. And the reason why he grafted it was because it was a long piece and all of the foliage was at a very tippy top. And so it was really difficult to design it. So I could definitely see the perks of doing that. I recently, I think, last year, I had picked up a ponderosa pine that had foliage grafted. I think. I believe it was japanese black pine grafted on it from Jason Ironhouse. It looks amazing. So I can definitely see the perks of grafting, but I definitely try to avoid grafting if I can. But I definitely see, you know, it's like any other tool. Right? You can use it to its best purposes, or you can just abuse it. So I think, when appropriate, I'm not against it, but if I can, I definitely keep the native foliage, if possible. [00:57:26] Speaker A: Gotcha. Gotcha. Very nice. Yeah, I guess one thing I'm really curious about is, in the future, if we're going to see native foliage grafted onto native trees, so, meaning, like, hey, can I propagate the highest quality of Sierra Juniper foliage that I find and then potentially graft that onto a Sierra juniper to improve the full characteristics. I feel like we haven't really seen that yet. I don't know if maybe someone is out there doing that. Have you heard about that? Or, like, is Ryan doing that right now? I know at one point, I believe I remember on Mariah live video, he was taking cuttings of, like, a really nice Rocky Mountain juniper. Have you seen any updates with that or heard anything about anyone doing anything like that? [00:58:18] Speaker B: I know when I was at Todd's last week, he had said that he was gonna attempt the Rocky Mountain foliage, but I don't think I've seen anybody successfully doing it. I think the issue at the end of the day was just, you know, you can get cuttings from, obviously, the Shinpaku and so on and so forth, but the Rocky Mountain and the one seed, they don't easily root. So I think when they've attempted to propagate them, they just don't want to take one idea that Ryan had for that one seed that was grafted by Bjorn because the foliage was so on a tippy top, so, so far away from the main branch. We want to see if it was possible to actually bend the foliage back onto itself and just grafted, like, an approach graph, and we never got around to doing it. But I think the issue, I guess, ultimately, is finding the stock. Right. Finding the stock that has been successfully propagated so you can apply it. And I've not seen anybody who has successfully done it. I think that'd be awesome if somebody did. And I know that I have a lot of cuttings from the one seed dripper, and there might be an experiment I run, but I've not seen anybody or heard of anybody successfully doing it. [00:59:50] Speaker A: Yeah, that's so interesting. So I've tried to take cuttings from Sierra Juniper a few different times, and it's interesting because Kishu and itoagawa, I can get to root, like, so easily. But Sierra Juniper, you would think, I mean, it's such a vigorous growing tree for me, but I cannot get it to root for the life of me. And so with your one seed, have you taken cutting cuttings that have rooted? [01:00:17] Speaker B: I've not attempted it. I probably should because that tree is also very vigorous, and it's throwing these long whips that I have to maintain. Anyway, I should probably try. Try it this. This fall or something and see if we can get it to route. But, yeah, that would be a cool experiment if somebody could do it successfully. But I've not heard of anybody. [01:00:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I would like to see it. I wonder if we'll see that down the road within bonsai. I like the idea of it a lot. One thing that I always think about that I believe I've spoken about on a previous podcast, though, is just grafting dwarf ponderosa onto our native ponderosa trunks. Would love to see that as well. [01:01:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [01:01:10] Speaker A: Very nice. Very nice. So I guess one question I had for you is, going back to working on your collection. Are you doing a lot of the work on your trees yourself? Is it mostly you're having the professionals work on the trees? Is it kind of a combination of both? I did see a picture of you wired a blue spruce on Todd's instagram recently. [01:01:34] Speaker B: Yeah. So I do the majority of the work myself. The ones where Ryan Todd comes in is when I am in need of assistance. Like, if it's a really large tree, you cannot really repot those yourself or there's provenance to the tree. For example, Ryan had styled and repotted a bald cypress clump this spring. It was from one of the last raw trees from Mary Madison's collection. So there was definitely that provenance with her collecting it. And, you know, with those trees, I just feel like I don't want to risk, I guess, an amateur's hands on them. I've been successful working with pretty much any of the trees myself, but I think there's definitely value in having, you know, these professionals doing those type of trees. Sometimes they come, either one of them visit, and it becomes kind of like a class where I'm learning something new, but I'm handling a lot of trees myself. There's definitely certain trees that are also just amazing specimens that even though I have my own ideas, I think that's the beauty about both Ryan and Todd. It's always been a very collaborative type of project. You know, they obviously have the ideas and what they think should be done, and they take my input completely. Even when we styled the marine Madison ball cypress, Ryan always took my input about almost the direction, the branch placement, and so on and so forth. He's always been good with that. And so it's always been a collaborative effort. Obviously, day in, day out responsibilities is on me. I water them, my nutrition them, I test them. And when obviously, you know, the Ryan and top aren't here all the time, so the majority of work I still do pruning, any pinching, you know, those type of stuff, moving them around, figuring out any weaknesses or diseases, it's still all on me. It's nice to have them, you know, a text away or phone call away. But yeah, other than major events like reporting super large trees or trees with provenance, I think, in my opinion, some world class specimens, I do majority of the work myself. [01:04:05] Speaker A: That's fantastic. You, I'm sure, are getting a whole lot of experience at a very rapid rate because you have such a. A great and large collection. It seems like I was curious, though. [01:04:16] Speaker B: It's very. The experience is definitely specific. Right. If you. If you give me a nursery tree or a tropical and say, hey, do something with this, then I'll be like, yeah, I don't have a lot of experience with it. So I want to say that if you have very specific experiences with the right people, then the progress comes quick. But I'm definitely not an all knowing bonsai practitioner. There's definitely been times where somebody asked me a question about some tropical tree. I'm like, I have no idea. So the knowledge and experience that I garnered has been very specific to just native conifers, mainly Yamadori, more than anything else. [01:05:03] Speaker A: Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. Makes total sense. I definitely don't know about tropicals either. I would not be the one to ask there. I was curious, man, I just keep getting all these questions I want to ask you, and I feel like I'm going to be jumping all over the place. So I do apologize about that. Which, like, how do you decide which professional to work with on which tree? And then do you, do you stick with one person on one tree and kind of like to continue taking it in that direction? I guess I feel like for a lot of people out there, if they're working with different professionals or they just have all these trees, it can become challenging if they work with several different professionals or they just don't have enough time to work on their own trees. So I was curious, like, how do you decide which professional to work on, and do they stick with one tree or do you have different professionals working on the same tree? [01:06:07] Speaker B: I tend to stick to the same people, same professionals on trees for the most part. I mean, at the end of the day, you know, I am. I am still a mirai student. So I think that is that mirais aesthetic that Todd, I worked with Sam Tan last year, so that mirai aesthetic was still continuous through all the students and obviously Ryan. So for the most part, there is that continuance of the aesthetic. So I tend to stick to the same professional for the trees. You know, I unfortunately did not have the opportunity to work with Bjorn on trees, other than having acquired a few of his trees. But majority I work with just Todd and Ryan, and last year, Sam, I've had other people come out or work with them in workshops and so on and so forth, but I. Not on my trees, per se. I don't know if it'll change down the road. You know, since I've only been in this art form for such a short time, I can't say I've met all the professionals out there either. So I think it's partly that there's also this idea of the aesthetic that I have a personal preference to. I do think there's a very real distinguishing difference between the american bonsai aesthetic versus the traditional japanese aesthetic. So I'm definitely a fan of that, you know, that wild, raw look and less of a manicured look. So I think that's part of that choice and part of decision making as well. [01:08:06] Speaker A: Very nice. Very nice. And, yes, I realize, actually, now that I'm thinking about it, all the professionals that you work with are in the Mirai family. Say Todd learned from Ryan. [01:08:16] Speaker B: Yep. [01:08:17] Speaker A: And so that's great. Keep it all in the Mirai family for you. Awesome. Do you have a, like, an overall goal with your collection? I know you mentioned that you want to show trees someday or in the year you already have been showing trees, but you would like to continue showing trees, but any overall goals within the collection that you'd like to accomplish? [01:08:45] Speaker B: I think the underlying goal has always been, you know, to perpetuate this idea of american bonsai. Right. So, for me, anything, any trees that showcases those things is what gets added to the collection. Obviously, there's some outliers that are just trees that I personally feel like I would like to work on, but the vast majority of trees are just, in my opinion, I guess I'm curating it indirectly. Just examples of american bonsai. Whether those acquisitions is meant to be a support for the artist to help with their livelihood, or the ceramicist, or the collector, or it could be trees that I feel, you know, summarizes, I guess, the strengths of american bonsai. I've definitely been approached by some owners to acquire some trees that they might be native trees, but they don't have the characteristics of what I define as the american bonsai tree. So those. Those collections, those trees don't get added to the collection. I think every effort that I'm putting in, resources I'm putting in, in the collection is to help perpetuate that. Now, there's also some early chatter about building some kind of facility that showcases some trees, have classrooms, have a car size kilnae, and a giant greenhouse to house the collection, and also be an educational facility again, in the hopes that it perpetuates american bonsai. Because I think at the end of the day, if you want to progress the art form, you need people to support it. Without the support, artists can't feed themselves. And so you get talents that either leave the profession or new talent that don't enter it because it's not a viable livelihood. So I think anything that I can do to kind of make it more accessible to people, to make it more known to the general population and get it more mainstream, in a sense, I think that's the goal of the collection. [01:11:25] Speaker A: Beautiful, beautiful. Love to hear it. Do you know how many trees you have currently? [01:11:33] Speaker B: I want to say under 100, over 80. There is some in, I want to say limbo in. You know, I think at todds, I have four trees. If I'm mistaken, Richard has a few that are raw and recovering, and I think I have some in Kentucky, potentially. So this. Definitely some trees are not here physically. But I want to say I'm right just under the 100 trees in total. [01:12:05] Speaker A: Gotcha. Okay. Oh, man. There is one spruce that you have at todds that I just absolutely am in love with. You posted just a raw picture of it a while back, and gorgeous, gorgeous trunk. Are they all spruce that you have over at his place? [01:12:26] Speaker B: Yeah, all of them are spruces. Obviously, that's mainly what it collects. And I might have a ponderosa there. I know there was some conversation about Doug fir. I don't know if I'll be adding that, but there's a pondo that I've been eyeing up at this place. So, yeah, I think the other four are all spruces. There's this. This project that I've been meaning to do, and he has a couple. He has all the raw trees, pretty much, that is meant for that particular composition that I want to make. [01:13:02] Speaker A: Ooh, very exciting. I can't wait to see pictures of that. Please. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure you do, too. So with the collection, do you think that you will be weeding out trees and adding new ones over time? Do you think you're going to cap yourself at 100? No right answer here. Or do you think that the collection will continue to grow with time? [01:13:32] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think my significant other would love for me to call the numbers. I'm sure like, every. Every bonsai practitioners, partners out there, you know, I think we kind of get too many trees in the long term, but I think there will be some trees that I'm actually preparing to kind of either re home sell whatever that I had acquired early on in my career before. When I say early on, I mean last year that didn't. I didn't. I wasn't quite sure what the direction of the collection was gonna be. So there's actually some trees that I'll probably be letting go. There's some trees that I think I'm earmarking to potentially finish up as part of a fundraising to acquire historic trees from other collectors. So there's definitely. There will be ebbs and flows in the number. I'm not right now, I want to say, I don't want to go balls to a wall and have 3400 trees. I don't think that will be the case. But I think until that facility comes to fruition, I think I will be around the hundred mark and try to not go over it. Over that. [01:14:57] Speaker A: Nice. Nice. Ah. The amount of time. I mean, the amount of time even a hundred trees takes to take care of and maintain is just insane. But, like, 300 trees would just be absolutely ridiculous. [01:15:12] Speaker B: Yeah, it would be. You'd be a full time job. [01:15:15] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. What would you say? Have you ever thought about your top three favorite types of trees? Trees? [01:15:24] Speaker B: Types of trees? Uh, I. I think that's, you know, I'm a. I'm a much bigger fan of. The very first characteristic of a tree that I think I gravitate towards are trees that have multiple apices. I think that's the one type of tree that I think, you know, when you have multiple apices, it's a very. It's not a simple design. It's a design that requires more thought into it versus just having it one main apex and so on and so forth. So I think trees with multiple episodes, definitely one that has more character, has more thought given into the design process. So I'm definitely a fan of multiple epices. I'm a fan of that base. The larger bass, most practitioners call it more masculine look. So those are characters that I look for, you know, like, all of us. Bunch of dead wood is always a good thing. [01:16:25] Speaker A: Definitely. [01:16:26] Speaker B: But it needs to be dead wood that, you know, that makes sense. Like, it intertwines. It speaks to the whole composition. I've definitely seen some junipers that have a ton of dead wood, and then you have this sliver of a live vein just attached to the side. And I think that doesn't have as much of a relationship for me. As far as telling the story of the hardship of that tree. So I think I'm definitely a fan of deadwood that plays with the living. And those. Those tend to be the characteristics that I look for. Very ancient, aged look, you know, bristle cones, one of my favorite species to work with. I think a lot of them are more windswept, environmentally, type of design. I think those are awesome. I actually have one bristle cone that's in raw form right now, which I think is going to be a spectacular tree because it shows a very white base that tapers really nicely, which is not common with bristol cones. So I want to say those are the characteristics that I look for in a tree species wise. I don't have any that I gravitate towards other than it being, you know, native species. There's a couple of limber pines, actually, that's recovering, which are gonna be amazing, amazing specimens once done. But, yeah, I'm open to any species as long as native, and it has those characteristics I look for. [01:18:10] Speaker A: Ah, very nice. Very nice. Do you know of many collectors that offer bristlecone pines? I feel like I haven't seen that. [01:18:18] Speaker B: Many I know of. I want to say two. One that has been consistent. Todd is one. Todd gets bristles. Bristle cones here and there. Obviously, spruce is the majority of his collection and some. Doug first. That's one. His name is Vince. He's on instagram as satoyamo, 81. Yeah, out in Kentucky. That guy, he's collecting the craziest trees out there. I don't think he gets enough credit because obviously, he's not been around as long as far as full time collecting, but he's pulling some of the craziest trees. Like, I don't think the general bonsai demographic have seen the breadth of the trees that's collected. He's only shown a few, but I've definitely had the. I was fortunate enough to have met him early on when he was, I think it was second year, third year collecting. And a lot of the trees that I have is from him. And they're just amazing specimens. I think I have, like, six, seven of his bristlecones. And they're. They're gonna be spectacular trees. I'm excited. [01:19:41] Speaker A: Ah, yes. I wanted to ask you about him. And so. So satoyama, 81, and then Richard Lee. They're brothers, right? [01:19:54] Speaker B: So they. Well, Richard, this Richard. [01:19:59] Speaker A: Okay. [01:20:00] Speaker B: Richard said that he's their blood brothers. [01:20:04] Speaker A: Okay. [01:20:04] Speaker B: So I think it's, you know, like they're. They're related somehow, but I don't think they're siblings. I might be wrong, but they do know each other. And, you know, whenever I talk to one or the other, you know, they always supportive and say, you know, support Richard or support Vince. And I'm talking to either one of them. And it's been. I like working with them, obviously. I'm from Singapore, I'm asian. So we have some characteristics, some cultural things that we understand of each other, so that makes it easier sometimes to communicate. But, yeah, they've both been wonderful with communicating. And the trees they're collecting, and, yeah, there's definitely a few. And I believe there's a transition that's happening right now, even in the collectors where I know Todd had said this recently, and I know both Dan and Steve had said it not too longer, where trees that they've walked by in the past, they're now starting to collect. So I think there's this shift based on the demand of the bonsai practitioners. The types of trees and the size of the trees and caliber of the trees that they're collecting is definitely shifting right now, which is an exciting time. [01:21:22] Speaker A: Very nice. Very nice. Yeah. Satoyama 81, his. The trees that he has collected are just mind blowing, and some of them are just absolutely massive. Yeah. I don't know why I was thinking they were brothers. I think maybe at one point they mentioned something about being brothers, but I wasn't sure if that was, like, a friends thing or they were just saying, like, he's my bro, or what exactly the deal was there. But I think part of the reason maybe I thought they were both brothers is because they both collect just these massive, giant trees that I have no idea in terms of how they actually go about that. Do you know much about Satoyama 80 one's collection process, like, how he actually extracts these trees? Is it with big machines or more so, like, all by hand? [01:22:14] Speaker B: Yeah, so he actually sometimes sends me videos, like, on site of the trees, and, you know, like, he shares how he's collecting them. He doesn't use machines. I think Richard definitely uses machines and tools to kind of help. But Vincent, I don't know if you know this, but he's actually a monk, and so he believes in respecting the trees and finding the right time for them and so on and so forth. So he definitely has a more holistic approach to collect, and he collects by hand, but he does have assistance just due to sheer size of the trees. And so he's not a skitsir kind of guy, other than moving it after collection. [01:23:10] Speaker A: Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. Well, yeah, I am just blown away by some of the trees that he's been collecting, and I didn't know he was a monk. That's very cool. Very interesting. Interesting, yeah. [01:23:22] Speaker B: In fact, a lot of the proceeds of trees that he's collecting is going towards this. This facility that he's building out in Kentucky for the. I don't. I don't. I don't call it monastery, but it's supposed to be like a meditation center. And I'm pretty sure he's picked out the plot, and he is working towards building that ceiling. Okay. [01:23:49] Speaker A: Wow. Okay. Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. So. So he's based out of Kentucky, but he collects in the Rocky Mountains. [01:23:59] Speaker B: He collects all over. He. He's out in Wyoming. He was out in Utah not too long ago. I know he was out in Colorado. He has family out in Colorado, so he collects there as well. And he. I'm pretty sure he was in the Sierras, but not this year. I think that was last year. So he goes all over and collects. Depends on the time of year and where he's at, but he's all over. [01:24:28] Speaker A: Very nice. Yeah. Some truly incredible trees that he has. And then. So, Richard, it looks like he. Do you know his background or his story? Does he. He owns the property that he collects from. Is that the case? [01:24:49] Speaker B: Yeah. So he was in landscaping for the longest time. And, yeah, he purchased this plot of land. I think it was 500 acres, if I'm mistaken. And so he owns the land that he collects from. It's in the four corners of New Mexico. But, yeah, he's collecting in his own land. [01:25:12] Speaker A: And does he. It looks like he is shipping some of the trees to Vietnam, like giant landscape size Yamadori ash or one seed juniper. [01:25:24] Speaker B: I'm not sure. I'm not sure what he. Whether he ships it out internationally, I don't know whether that's even possible. But I do know that he has a lot of landscapes, landscape clients in the US. So some of these trees are actually ending up as landscape trees and not necessarily bonsai. [01:25:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Out of the trees that you have gotten from Richard, do you think that the tornado will always be your number one? Like, is he finding other ones of that quality? [01:26:04] Speaker B: Yeah, he's finding some top tier stuff. I have a few at his place right now. And I guess it helps to start by defining what I mean by that. I think the beauty about the tornado and the twister is just the movement in the deadwood intertwined with the live vein, and it's just this raw, visual aesthetic that you think of when you think of a one seed juniper in the desert, it's just beautiful movement. And he's finding some trees that have very similar characteristics. And for me, the trees I have are large. Not necessarily by. I don't say it's not by choice, but it's more. So, you know, trees need. You need a certain amount of surface volume to surface area to kind of showcase details and characteristics. It's hard to get the kind of movement that you value in very small trees, but once in a while, you find trees that are just medium in size. I want to say the sweet spot is 2022 inches to about maybe 33, 34 inches. That has all of these movement characteristics of large trees, but in small, compact, stunted form. And those, I think, are the most valuable, the most beautiful trees out there. So I think finding trees that are perhaps smaller than the tornado twister, but has as much character is probably gonna, you know, gonna be, you know, you overtake that number one spot, I guess, as far as character on a tree, but as far as a tree by itself, I want to say it's hard to outdo the tornado, because to me, the tornado, it's not just designed by one of our best american bonsai talents right in Beorn, but it was also a, what I call, community tree. Bjorn was very gracious with allowing his students to work on those trees, and when I acquired it, I had so many people reach out, giving me photos of them working on trees and so on and so forth, and rarely do you find an opportunity where you have this world class material and you have students working on it. So I think it's hard to ever say that, you know, there'll be another one seed dripper that's going to be better than that, because there's so much of the history of american bonsai and how many lives and education that tree has provided to all of his. All of his students. So I think, in a sense, as a tree, I think it's always going to be the number one spot. But as far as characteristics, I think Richard will. Will perpetually find more and more trees, whether they're better or not, obviously, in the eye of the beholder and what you find to be important or valuable in a one seed juniper. But I think there's definitely going to be trees that have really good character that would give the tornado a run for its money. [01:29:36] Speaker A: Ah, very nice. Incredible points. The community working on that tree and really creating it as a. As a big collaboration. Well, not a big collaboration, but a collaboration under Bjorn's hand. And I think in terms of overall quality, nothing is going to beat Twister. I do really like the idea of a smaller, compact size twister. I feel like, you know, my personal. If I could create the perfect ultimate bonsai, the size would be, like, a lot smaller than twister. And I think, like the large category of the Pacific bonsai Expo, or slightly into the xl, but not too big. That's kind of like the ultimate size for me. And if you can pack as much, move in as possible in those sizes, like, I just absolutely love that. But Twister is just so awe inspiring. I really would hope to see it in person someday. [01:30:45] Speaker B: Yeah, it will definitely be shown eventually. I am, you know, with the repotting that we did and some of the progression that will happen to a tree, I'm partly nervous to show it because of the changes, but, yeah, it'll definitely be shown sooner or later. [01:31:08] Speaker A: Fantastic. Fantastic. You know, I guess I'm really curious about. I wish I could see Richard actually extract some of these trees. Like, how does he go about it, even with heavy machinery? I'm just really curious about the process. Like, is he digging a big trench around the trees? And then, like, how does he go about extracting the actual tree? Have you seen any of that or any ideas there? [01:31:38] Speaker B: Yeah, he sent me some videos of when, you know, he's collecting the trees, like, live, when he's actually doing it. He has, I think, three or four people assisting him. Much like, you know, any of the other collectors, that they always assess the way that the trees are growing before deciding how to approach. I know all of them, from Randy to Vince to Richard. Sometimes trees are not ready to be collected, and they might strategize to doing something to that tree. So you'll be more ready to be collected next year, for example. So I think assessment of how they're going to approach it matters. But there is a very clear, from what I've seen, having purchased as trees from Randy and obviously Steve and Dan versus Vince and Richard, there's a very clear distinction between how they collect. I think on one hand, when you purchase raw trees from randy or from the backcountry boys, you know, the root ball has been reduced significantly, and the collection box tends to be small. Right. And they reduce it to the point where they're comfortable, they'll survive. Whereas with Vince and Richard, they try to collect as big of a root ball as they can, and the collection boxes are humongous in comparison. I have a rocky mountain from randy that came last year. You know, it's about, I want to say, 3ft across, 2ft high, and the container is no more than and 24 inches wide and twelve inches in breadth and four inches in depth. But compared to a similar size tree from Richard, you have a 3ft high, 4ft wide, 3ft high box. So there's definitely difference in principles in how they collect it, but because of that difference with richer, when it collects, is definitely a deeper, wider digging around the tree. Root ball. The root ball tree. And so, yeah, there is, I want to say, almost like the trenching around where he thinks the root ball is going to be, and then digging underneath it. And then, you know, he wraps it in burlap and then just carries it via machinery to take it out. [01:34:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. You know, I think Randy is kind of like the ultimate in terms of being able to reduce the root ball to the perfect size where the tree will still survive and thrive. But it also, I feel like his trees will fit into a bonsai container a lot faster than, say, like, you know, with other collectors. But then I also feel like, at least for Richard, I'm sure he has to take a lot more, just because with Randy, when he's collecting on rock, he can extract a, you know, a nice, tight root ball where there's lots of fine matted roots. Whereas when you collect in dirt, just like the open, open soil, which it looks like Richard is collecting into me, there's just not as tight of a root ball right there for you, which you can extract. It's more like, you know, when a tree grows in dirt, there's not the. The same number of roots within every inch of soil compared to when you get a tree that's just growing, like in a pocket, essentially a pocket of dirt within rock. [01:35:16] Speaker B: So, yeah, I think there's definitely a factor. And I have, on the flip side, I have two, three spruces, larger spruces from Vince that was obviously collected from rock because they actually have granite, like, wrapped around. The tree is wrapped around granite, so it's embedded in the tree where the recovery, the container is recovering in is still exceptionally large. I think it's also a question of, like, you know, like you said, the size of the root ball they're collecting and also the available root ball. But also, I think there's a risk tolerance, the person collecting. Right. Whatever they feel comfortable or whatever has been working for them. Yeah, I have three, I want to say spruces. They're just larger than about 3ft, 4ft high. And collection recovery boxes are just humongous. And this past spring, we did the marathon four days of repotting trees with Mirai students and Todd and Ryan, and we repotted a bunch of Vince's trees. And even though the recovery boxes are large, we were able to significantly reduce the root ball to fit in really tiny bonsai containers. So I think there's definitely a factor of, like you said, the route size of available roots, but also, I think, safety net that they're comfortable with as collectors. [01:36:54] Speaker A: Definitely. So now in gaining experience and seeing both collectors. So with Richard and Vince, they have much larger boxes compared with purchasing trees from, say, randy or the backcountry boys. Do you have a preference? Would you rather have the trees in a. In a larger container or a smaller one? And then when you repot those trees, are the quality of roots the same in both, or would you say that they seem to thrive more in the smaller boxes or the larger boxes? Or do you have enough of a sample size to determine, like, which one you prefer yet? [01:37:38] Speaker B: I don't say personally, I don't have enough of a personal sample size. Obviously, every potential, a bunch of Vince's trees reported, a couple of Randy's trees so far, and obviously trees that are reported at Mirai. But as far as my preference goes, I prefer a healthy tree. So, basically, if a tree is healthy and vigorous and doing well post collection, I don't have a preference between a large container or small, you know, recovery container. Obviously, a smaller recovery container is easier to transition to a bonsai pot. But again, I'm. I'm a fan of a healthy tree. I'll take any healthy tree over, you know, the size of the container, obviously. And I think there is something to be said about larger recovery containers. I think it takes a lot more attention to the. At how damp it is and how often to water, because they use pumice, 100% pumice, as the recovery soil, and pumice likes to hold water. So if you have a very large recovery box, you don't have to water as often. And if you do, then you start having health issues. And there's been a couple of cases where I've had to reduce the pumice in the recovery box just to let it dry out faster because of health concerns. So there's definitely a little bit more complication to that versus a smaller recovery box, for sure. [01:39:18] Speaker A: Definitely. Definitely. Yeah, I guess one thought that I've had, and I've really followed everything that Randy Knight puts out regarding collecting. So all the video on Mirai Live or any talk that he's given. I've always paid a lot of attention to that because I feel like he is just the best when it comes to overall aftercare and collecting. And he's just had such a giant sample size to work with and been collecting for so long. So I just follow everything that he puts out. But I do wonder. He's really big into to having the trees in a nice small box, nice tight box, which I think is, is good and important. I wonder if some of that has to do with the area that's he, that he's in. It rains so frequently that trees just stay or they get so wet and so overwatering is more of a concern. Whereas like, say, in my area we don't get that much rain. So I not that concerned with trees drowning and being over watered. Just wondering if that may be one factor in just his, his climate and environment in terms of the aftercare compared with other people. Just some observations there. [01:40:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think you have a point there. I remember hearing Ryan say this, that, you know, there's a point at which collected trees should be transitioned into a bonsai container or at least repotted. You know, you shouldn't allow the tree, the raw tree, to recover for too long. The tree has that timetable, obviously. And I had asked Todd this recently, what does he mean by it? You know, as far as do I have to transition this raw tree after 5456 years? Is that a time limit on a time clock? And that was exactly the point that Todd brought up, that Ryan probably said that because of where he's at versus, you know, like he, Todd doesn't feel like he, where he's at in Denver. That's ever a concern. He's had trees in recovery boxes longer than the time clock, whatever you want to call it. So I think the way you're at definitely matters. I can't imagine being in a wet area and having a large recovery box. Your tree will never, ever dry out if that's the case. [01:42:00] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:42:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:42:01] Speaker A: Makes total sense. Very interesting points. Hey, I am so sorry. Do you mind if we take a quick restroom break? We are back. Nice. Cool. So I was wondering, what about deciduous trees? Are you into deciduous at all or broadleaf evergreen? I know you're a huge conifer guy. [01:42:21] Speaker B: Nope, nope. [01:42:24] Speaker A: Like not at all. Not at all. [01:42:28] Speaker B: I'm laughing about it because Todd has been pushing me. Like, you know, he keeps saying, is this man of time? You're going to get into deciduous trees? And I'm like, nope, I have exactly one azalea that I purchased when I first started and during that Memorial Day sale, I still have it and I'm just not a fan. I'm just. I don't know, I feel like they're more fragile. I don't know, they just pick. I can't put my finger on it, but the converse have always been hardy for me. And you know, the weather through everything just feel like the seizures have more issues or things that I have to keep an eye out for. Actually, I lie. I have one other decision. This sharp pitch me maple that I purchased again during that sale from brussels and I still have it, but those are the only two deciduous that I have other than obviously deciduous conifers on the ball, cypress. But I would love to give the two away. That's how little I like the trees. But yeah, I'm a conifer guy through and through. [01:43:44] Speaker A: Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay, that is funny. So yeah, I was going to ask you like, you know, if it was, say an american deciduous, would you prefer that more or could that tempt you to get into deciduous or that still not, doesn't interest you like american hornbeam, american beach, any of that kind kind of stuff? [01:44:08] Speaker B: I guess I never say never, so maybe down the road, but I think there's so many conifer species that I still haven't explored to begin with that I think I like the idea of, you know, because I'm learning it. There's so much to learn still in that realm. I want to focus on that. And I know I have a responsibility, these trees, to make sure I can take care of them. So I think that's the other part of it where unless I start hiring somebody to assist me or whether the case may be, I'm already at that capability threshold that I think adding a curveball of deciduous trees might not be in the books for now. [01:44:57] Speaker A: Gotcha. Makes sense. Makes sense. Okay. Well, I definitely do think that there is something to specialization and if you're just working with conifers, I think you're going to get a whole lot more experience working with conifers and you'll learn how to keep them healthy and work on them properly and ultimately probably become a whole lot better with conifers as opposed to if you work with deciduous as well, it's just a lot to, a lot for your attention to go in many different directions. So I very much respect that. [01:45:32] Speaker B: Yeah. As Ryan always say, you know, there's nuances to each species and I'm already, you know, learning about all of that, adding the deciduous family is probably something which, again, I'll never say never. And as Todd says, someday you might want that hint of color and you'll, you'll get deciduous trees. But for now, uh, not, not planning to. [01:46:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, I, I'm a big fan of both, but, uh, it's, it's like a, you know, quite different working on deciduous than conifer in many different ways. So I get it. [01:46:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:46:16] Speaker A: What about, uh, trees that are more in the traditional japanese aesthetic? Does that interest you at all? Or do you think you'll ever have a different section within your garden that's kind of just for the japanese traditional aesthetic as opposed to a more modern western american type aesthetic? [01:46:43] Speaker B: Again, I'll never say never, but right now my focus has always been about perpetual, perpetuating american bonsai. Don't get me wrong, I have absolute respect for the more traditional model. I think it takes a lot of skill, a lot of time, a lot of commitment to achieve that. I think there's cultural reasonings to the approach is no different than talking about paintings in a specific era or a specific artist. Right. The Renaissance versus modern aesthetics and modern art forms. I think that is where I tend to move away from. I think there's something about american trees especially. We have the biggest geographical landmass compared to other countries, and the variety of that landmass from the mountains to alpine and so on and so forth, and the regions like sierras that we have this idea of this raw ruggedness that's wild. The idea of the wild west. And that's what I want to perpetuate. That's what I think the effort for us as an american art form to grow. Again, this does not diminish the efforts, nor the specialty, nor the skill of the aesthetic and those that practice that particular approach, absolutely not. For me, it's just my focus is more that american bonsai. You know, it's every time I see a raw tree, raw Yamadori, that just looks almost already like a bonsai, I think to myself, the similarity is in the automotive world. Like, I am buying this Ferrari to drive it like a Ferrari. I'm not buying this Ferrari to drive it to the grocery store. Right. And I feel getting this raw tree and trying to domesticate it into this conformity just is not the approach I want to take. [01:48:58] Speaker A: Makes total sense. By the way, you have a Ferrari? Yes. [01:49:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I have a few cars. [01:49:09] Speaker A: Awesome. Awesome. Very cool. That's really cool. I think I saw one picture of your Ferrari by your trees and it looked pretty awesome. So pretty epic. Congrats on that. [01:49:23] Speaker B: Yeah, actually, we're having an event in pushback because of construction, but we were having an event called boost and bonsai, where we're actually going to pair the different cars and projects we've done with the different trees that might share characteristics, whether that be the lines or the forms or the size. And we're trying to, again, perpetuate bonsai as an art form using the younger automotive enthusiast demographic. Yeah, so that's something that we're going to do sometime this year. We're just trying to figure out when construction will be done so we can roll that out. But I have a roof rack for one of my cars. It's a bright green Lamborghini, and we're putting the roof rack on it, and I'm building a platform, and we're going to put one of the trees on top, like a roof rack bonsai to take some photos, and I think it'll be out display at the event. [01:50:30] Speaker A: That sounds absolutely epic. Can't wait to see that. That is incredible. Now, I'm curious, no judgment here, but during the wintertime, when you were doing the bonsai shuffle, where were your cars garaged? Did you kick your cars out to put trees in the garage, or do you have another space for them? [01:50:57] Speaker B: So I do have a lot of space for them. And I store three, three cars at the other spot, but majority of my cars got kicked out. So, yeah, there was some. Yeah, there was. You know, the Ferrari was outside, the lambo was outside, the, all the cars outside. Unfortunately, the trees. I got the garages this past two winters. But I always say that cars are cars. They're not going to melt just because snow got on them or they were rained on. None of my cars are garage queens. I drive them, I think, on track. I go to shows with them so they get used. So I'm not worried about pristine cars. So they sat outside and the trees got the garage. [01:51:56] Speaker A: Wow. Okay. Gotcha. That is a level of commitment for your bonsai, and I respect it heavily. So nice work there. That is awesome. Cool. Well, you know, one thing I was really curious about, and if you, you know, at any time, if you need to take off, like, just let me know. I was hoping to ask you a little bit about nutrition, though. [01:52:21] Speaker B: Sure, yeah, go ahead. [01:52:22] Speaker A: Awesome. Okay. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. Would you tell me a little bit about what, before we go into kind of your story in terms of nutrition and health of your trees, maybe, would you tell me a little bit about apical and kind of like break that down for any listeners in terms of how they work, how they function and how that could be beneficial for trees. [01:52:50] Speaker B: Sure. And I'll preface this with saying that this is not required, it's not necessity, because one of the feedbacks that I get is, you know, this is not something that's possible for most bonsai practitioners. So in no way or form am I saying this is a requirement for bonsai practitioners. But for me, I went this route because of health issues with a few of the trees last year. But basically apical nutrition. They work in Mirai and David, who's the owner, the principal of the whole organization, his specialty is in agriculture, commercial agriculture, but he understands the nutrition of trees and so on and so forth. So the idea is you send samples out to them to get tested, foliage samples, and if I'm not mistaken, the manner in which they test is patented because they've been able to get testing done on a very small sample. If you look at a sandwich batch, I usually send a quarter to half of a sandwich bag of foliage, so not a lot. And they basically break it down, tell you the profile of the tree and able to give recommendations on nutrition that might be lacking or issues with a tree. And the beauty of it is housed in one portal, one login for you. So you can kind of, as you send different samples of the same tree, all compiled into one resource, you can also share those results with somebody else. I have, obviously Ryan attached to it, so he sees all the results, the recommendations, and becomes mirai students and other bonsai practitioners. And Mirai does it. You have this library of information and you can start seeing track. And I think the idea is as the sample size gets large enough, we're able to make recommendations based off assuming that the whole North America seems to be having this issue with all their junipers, therefore this particular nutritional recommendation could work for them kind of deal. I think that's the path, but obviously we need to get more sample size. And there's the idea of like sending the samples. You can also send soil samples and water samples for the test. I've not. I've gotten my ro water tested. Of course it came out clean. So I think if you have to test something, I would say testing the foliage, which is basically end product, will be the most beneficial. So tell, you know, what adjustments you have to make through the nutritional program. The argument on the flip side is obviously, obviously people have been practicing bonsai for years, never had this, and they've done well. And I'll say, yeah, I think if what you've been doing has worked, continue doing that. And I was on the bygoal kelp, you know, regimen for the first year, and it was only when I had health issues with a bunch of my junipers early last year. This one, Ryan said, let's get some samples out. They tested it, we changed a nutritional protocol and they've thrived. Like, the change was almost instantaneous after the first application where I felt like, okay, this works. This allows me to get objective information to pinpoint what's wrong, and I can directly adjust the nutrition and make that effect immediately. It is a commitment, though. I mean, we're talking about sending samples out. There's the financial aspect to it. There's also the issue of, you know, if your tree is already weak, people always ask, my tree's weak, do I really want to cut off more foliage? So there's definitely the issue, and then there's the issue of even the nutritional protocol. It's not for the faint of heart, obviously, you have a lot of trees. Each tree might have something slightly different over time. You can normalize species like all the Rocky Mountain could have similar protocols and same protocol once they've been corrected. All the spruces, for example, there's definitely groups that can do together. I believe the fir and the spruce can be done together once they've been normalized. So that is, you know, down the road as it gets better. And I think the mira and my garden like testament and there's other students that do this via trees are doing really, really well. And it's not just a question of like, oh, robust growth, but it's also the quality of the growth has been really good and overall health is, no, gosh, I've not had to spray for fungal or insects since last year, so never don't have any issues. They are all healthy and seems to be doing really well. So I'm definitely a proponent. It does get tedious with the different protocols for different trees. And so I know that Todd is looking at a different protocol that he's been successful with this year. I'm going to leave it up to him to share whenever he's ready. But his garden looked amazing this year, so that could potentially be another option. So, yeah. [01:58:59] Speaker A: Very nice. Very nice. So basically, to summarize, essentially what you're doing is taking, primarily taking foliage samples. You're sending them into this lab, which is called aphdite pickle. And. And then they are doing a SAP analysis on the foliage, and then they're telling you where you may have potential deficiencies. Everything is logged in through a portal so you have access and Ryan has access to that all the time. And then they are making recommendations in terms of what you should potentially be giving to your trees, what type of nutrition, so that you can adjust the nutrition so that it's basically like spot on. Right. There's no deficiencies in any of your trees, is that correct? [01:59:50] Speaker B: That's a good summary. [01:59:52] Speaker A: Nice. And then. So let's see. Yeah, that seems like it would be quite a bit of work, especially for a collection of your size. Do they. So are these all liquid applications that you're giving and then do you purchase all, are they called blue gold products? [02:00:17] Speaker B: Yeah, through apical Eden. Blue gold has their own website. Obviously. I think the products that you get from apical are formulated specifically for what apical wants. So there are a little bit of a difference. And the other recommendations, obviously, you know, using the products that they're familiar with, they're all liquid and it's just basically like a chemist and just adding different combinations of the products. I think again this is the commitment, not just financial but time wise, trying to put together different concoctions for different trees. But basically they give directions. As far as you know, it's a, um, soil feeding a drench to call it, and then usually a foliar spray three days after and then a repeat of the soil drench three or four days after that. And that's typically the protocol. I know some people have had a couple differences but then, you know, you see how the facts are. I usually get retested about, I want to say three, four weeks after that happens and then there's another recommendation and once it normalizes then you can group different species and have a protocol that is consistent. [02:01:45] Speaker A: Very nice. So are you testing all of your trees like every three or four weeks, would you say? [02:01:53] Speaker B: Yeah, not all of them. I think I am testing trees that are new to the collection. If they've recently been added. [02:02:02] Speaker A: Gotcha. [02:02:03] Speaker B: Obviously if I see health issues there's a bunch that, you know, they started last year and they've normalized. So those don't have to be tested other than one. I want to call them the representative of the species. Like the Rocky Mountains have been normalized for those that started last year and they're doing really well. So I test only one out of the seven that I have. But there was a rocky mountain that joined the collection late last year so I tested it in the fall and then I tested again a few last month. I want to say, and it's due for net testing this week. [02:02:48] Speaker A: Nice. Okay. And so are you feeding. So just to make sure I understand, are you feeding anything outside of the blue gold products? Like do you give some type of generalized pelletized fertilizer or is it only blue gold products for you? [02:03:06] Speaker B: Only blue gold products. I do have some recovering Yamadori that because of the agreement that I have with the collectors, that I would use DIa protocol and they are on the Biogold kelp still when, when they're ready to be fertilized. Todd said he has had a lot of success with his protocol on newly collected trees. Trees that he just collected, recovery boxes. He immediately nutritions them and they're doing really well. And when I visited him last week, yeah, the spruces they just collected are already pushing, which is using the protocol that he's using. So I think other than that, everything else is on blue goal. I mean, Eden. Yeah, Eden, blue goal. [02:04:03] Speaker A: Very nice. Very nice. Yeah. So this is something that I'm really interested in. And so far, I've only sent off foliage samples for one of my trees. It was a Sierra juniper. And got the recommendations, I think, like back in October of last year or so. So I haven't done a whole lot of testing, but it's definitely something that I'd like to keep playing around with and experimenting on more kind of the, like, I have a very like, blanket way of providing nutrition to my trees, which is essentially just bio gold fish emulsion. And then I'm actually giving all of my trees, uh, calcium and carbon in very small, what I would consider smaller doses to err on the side of less as opposed to more. Uh, so that's very much like a general blanket type approach, and not as specific and detailed as what you're doing. So far, my trees, they're growing the best that they ever have. This year, I think. It seems like a lot of trees are, are, have a deficiency with carbon and calcium. That's what I hear from mirai, and that was apparent on the test that I got from my Sierra juniper. So that was cut. That's kind of my blanket approach. But I would like to continue to test different types of trees to learn, learn more the nuances and dial things in a bit more. That's basically for right now though, that's what I'm doing. [02:05:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I think for a lot of people, like I said prior to last year, that was my protocol by a goal and kelp and fish emulsion. And I would have stuck to that if there wasn't any health issues because it's easy. Right. It's the same thing for all trees. And I would have stuck to that if not for the major. Major. I had a lot of chlorosis with the junipers. Rocky Mountains, for sure. And one of my sierras start to lose a lot of foliage and. And, yeah, got all tested, and the turnaround was so immediate that I became a fan. But the protocol that Todd is working on, it's similar to the Biogol fish emulsion, where it's just one protocol for everybody. So that might be the more adoptable approach. Like I said, I'll let him introduce it once he's ready, but I. I think that is probably the easier route to do it. And I feel like the apical option might transition to that down the road. Once the sample size gets large enough, like you said, the efficiencies that you've seen might be a blanket thing that they do down the road. I'm not sure. I don't have access to all the samples. But, yeah, I think either way, it's new information and new things that we're learning. Hoping it rises, you know, rising tight lifts all ships kind of deal. [02:07:06] Speaker A: Definitely, yeah. Most definitely. Yeah. I'm really curious if there will be some type of. Also with these blue gold products. So I currently use the calcium and carbon, and they're both liquid forms. I wonder if they'll have some type of pelletized version in the future. In fact, I was kind of thinking, like, could I make my own with the calcium and carbon? However, measuring that would be complicated, and I think I'd like to do more tests first before I did anything like that. But, yeah. Have you heard anything about pelletized forms in the future? [02:07:47] Speaker B: I hear some rumblings on pelletized forms. I'm not. I don't know how far it's gotten or whether that it will come. And I do think that it was so much easier to have bio go on in your containers versus having to spray every week or whatever. So I'm hoping it will come to that. But I don't have any further information. New information about that. [02:08:17] Speaker A: Totally, totally. I don't know. You do not have to go down or talk about this. I'm not even sure if we're allowed to. But, like, say, with Rocky Mountain junipers, for example, was there any general trends that you saw with them or any. Any general trends that you can talk about? Or is that something that we're not supposed to talk about? I'm not really sure. [02:08:42] Speaker B: I'm sure, you can talk about it, and I'll be the first. I'll be honest. I'm not as geeky about it as, you know, when Ryan talks about these things. And I sat in on the podcast with David and Ryan, and, gosh, I took so much notes, and I can still say that I don't always understand all of it, but I do know the silica is important to kind of help flush out any of the salt buildup, metal buildup. So silica was often used. Carbon was another thing. And like you say, calcium. That seems to be the underlying stuff. With the ball cypress that I've been testing, there was a lot of recommendations for iodine, so that was a new one that didn't, wasn't in other, any of the other species. But for Rocky Mountain, it definitely seems very similar to the Sierras. The only difference is the Sierras have a much lower tolerance for salt buildup and toxin buildup. So they required more silica addition than the rocky mountains. But I think the, the chlorosis, for me, was immediately corrected by those changes. [02:10:17] Speaker A: Gotcha. Gotcha. So interesting and so nuanced and complicated. Like, just some questions that are coming to my mind are like, you know, will this stuff be a lot different depending on the climate or the zone or the location that you're in? You know, like, I wonder. Yeah, you know, if that's going to be the case, or, like, you know, does your water and soil have a big effect with the trees overall nutrition? Yeah, very interesting, and hope to learn a lot more about this subject as time goes on and hopefully get more and more updates about this. [02:10:59] Speaker B: I think it's nice that we've had more and more people sending samples from all around the country. So hopefully the geographical portion of it and the environmental differences will add to that data set. [02:11:15] Speaker A: Yeah, most definitely. I guess I'm curious, if there was someone that was interested in getting their trees tested, how would you go about that process? How would you start that? [02:11:29] Speaker B: So you can go to their website. If you just Google nutrition, they have a website where there's a link. Basically, you print out this label and you fill out the information, your name, the species. There's a question about whether it's new or old growth that actually is more where the foliage is coming from, whether it's on the lower part of the tree or the apex region, and then any concerns that you might have, and you basically grab half a sandwich bag worth of foliage and mail it to the address with the label. The address is on the label itself, and then they email you the results. You pay for it once you have access to the results, and then they give recommendations. If you choose four recommendations, there's different levels of testing. This testing recommendations, it's just testing for a sample itself, and then that's basically it. The turnaround, I think, obviously depends on where you're at in the country, but I usually just overnight mine, and it takes about, I want to say, four to five business days before I get access to results. So it takes about a week for them to test it and upload the results for you. And recommendations usually take about two or three days after that. And, yeah, that's, that'll be the easiest way. Their website might not have all the details, but basically, you know, and I can share with the link. I can find and share the link on what exactly. Got to click to print out the labels. [02:13:18] Speaker A: Sweet. Very nice. Very nice. And so, so you're saying, like, basically you are not spraying for fungus or insects. [02:13:29] Speaker B: I have not. I've not had a need, nor have I seen any symptoms of fungal issues or pests. So I've not had a need to do it. I'm not a fan of prophylactically spraying. [02:13:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:13:49] Speaker B: So, yeah, I've not sprayed since, um, last, gosh, last spring, winter, maybe early spring was when. Last time. I remember spring. [02:14:02] Speaker A: Yeah, that's, that, that's fantastic. Uh, I don't think anyone is really a fan of, of spring. In fact, I'd say, yeah, for me, it's probably my least favorite, uh, task to do within bonsai. Uh, one thing that I, unfortunately, so I say my trees are very healthy, and, and generally speaking to, they are. One thing that I still struggle with occasionally is spider mites. So, I don't know, I wonder if I could dial in nutrition really, really well if I could get rid of spider mites just through getting the perfect balance of nutrition within my trees. And, like, spider mites seem to hit my kishu shimpaku, my futo shimpaku, and then coast live oaks. Surprisingly, those are kind of like the three species of trees that I struggle with, spider mite. So I wonder if that is the case. If, if so, I think it's absolutely worth pursuing. I just wonder if that could actually prevent spider mites or not. I wonder. [02:15:05] Speaker B: So I remember dealing with spider mites the first season that I was into bulletin side almost immediately. The trees that came in a couple of months, I issued some spider mites. Did the white paper testing treat it for it? I've not had any occurrence of it since last spring. Again, that's such a small sample size, obviously, but the number of trees I've grown. And I assume you would have also increased the likelihood of having spider mice. But I have no instance of it from my last conversation, Ryan, he's not sprayed either. For mirai as a whole. The whole garden hasn't needed any spraying for pesticides or fungal, and he's not had any health issues this year either. So, you know, I don't know if that's large enough sample size, but. But, gosh, if I don't have to spray another day, I'll gladly continue using this protocol. [02:16:14] Speaker A: Ah, very nice. Well, that makes me hopeful. So thank you for that information. Really appreciate it. And that would. Life without spraying would be a great life to me. So. Love to hear that. [02:16:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I remember the first time I sprayed the pesticide. And of course, you know, I didn't know any better and I just sprayed in my regular clothes, not thinking anything about it. And an hour later, I had the worst headache that wouldn't go away. So obviously, since, you know, the next time I sprayed it, I had gowned up, I had used a face mask and eye protection and whatnot. So the fact that I don't have to do that anymore is a godsend. [02:16:58] Speaker A: Yikes. Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha. Oof. That's scary. Awesome. Well, you know, Isaiah, thank you so, so much for your time. I really, really appreciate everything and it's been so awesome to chat with you. I guess that was the majority of the questions and info that I had. Was just curious if there was any other topics that you wanted to hit on or anything you wanted to plug or. Or chat about here. [02:17:29] Speaker B: Not necessarily. I think, you know, again, if anything, I would just plug the idea that, you know, support your bonsai professional. And I don't mean just artists, the collectors. Andy from Golden Arrow, obviously. Randy, the backcountry boys, you know, Vincent, Richard. I know that sometimes reaching out to them is kind of difficult, especially Randy. But he does reply to emails, so you can have to email him, but support these guys in your ceramicist. Now on Argonne, you know, Jonathan Cross, obviously, there's so many different Sarah Raynor. There's plenty of them. I think we continue supporting this artist. I think the quality of the art form just goes up from there. Obviously there's different levels of practitioners, but I think as a whole, we all benefit from more information, more technical knowledge. Gosh, I can't imagine how much better the knowledge base has been due to, like, Mirai life or Bjorn's channel or even YouTube, just having more of these knowledge bases. So the more we support the professionals in the art form, I think the better. And I think for me, that's the main plug. I don't have any other plugs, Todd. Yeah, for sure. Todd, first branch. I'll definitely plug him, obviously. Amazing work. Amazing guy. And, yeah, he's a good guy. [02:19:26] Speaker A: Fantastic. Well, beautiful and important message there. And, hey, I thank you so much for joining me today. It's been so cool to follow along on your story and see all your pictures of your trees. I can't wait to. To see your collection continue to improve and progress. And I thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much. [02:19:47] Speaker B: Well, thanks for having me. I appreciate the conversation. Obviously, I'm new to this whole thing, and I don't know a lot of people, so I'm surprised that you reached out. And I think it's a. It's an honor for me to be on your podcast. It's been awesome to have this conversation, and hopefully, you know, more people will listen to me Jibby Jabber and go and just rent on the show. So thanks for having me. [02:20:15] Speaker A: Absolutely. Thank you so much. Thank you. I'll see you at the Pacific. Pacific Bonsai Expo. [02:20:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I'll see you there. [02:20:22] Speaker A: All right, take care. Thanks so much. [02:20:26] Speaker B: Have a good day, gentlemen. Bye.