Episode #13 Backcountry Bonsai

[00:00:00] Speaker A: There's a new Bonsai convention going down in the Midwest in 2024. It's going to be May 3 through the fifth at the Gateway Convention Center in Collinsville, Illinois, put on by the Bonsai Society of Greater St. Louis. And I highly recommend you check this one out, because they are doing everything right. I think that they are just doing a phenomenal job with the entire bow and convention. So, to start off, they got six incredible headliners. They have. Bjorn Bjor, home of Asan tyler sherrod of Dogwood Studios andrew Robson of Rakuyo n maria Hadstick young Cho and Morrow Stemberger. So, super high level guest artists. I'm very excited that they were able to line up those people. I don't think they could have done a better job with that. That is absolutely phenomenal. They're doing $7,500 in cash prizes for the trees, the Kusamono and the Suiseki Expo. They have $2,500 for the tree that wins Best in Show. Currently calling for entries right now. So if you go to Bonsai Central Bonsaicentral.com entries, you can enter your tree. Deadline is February 1, 2024. So, once again, Bonsaicentral.com entries, you can check that out. In addition to that, they have 14 plus workshops. They have twelve informal pop up demos, two formal demos. They have dinner, which is going to be included with the price of admission on Friday. Saturday they have nine plus Bonsai and Kusimono lectures, plus Q and A sessions. They have three professional roundtables, and they have over 15 awesome vendors, all confirmed. I would definitely recommend you check out the site and look at the workshop material. I am pumped. I would literally buy every single juniper if I could for the workshop price. I think that they are not charging enough there. They have these awesome twisty junipers. I don't know where they got them or how they were able to obtain them, but I would buy all of them. Of course, they're saving them for the workshops. They have really great workshop material. A lot of times. Workshop material, I'm like it's. [00:02:31] Speaker B: All right. [00:02:32] Speaker A: But this workshop material is looking very high level, so for more information, I would go to Bonsai Central. You can learn all about the convention, and I am very proud to say that they are a sponsor for this episode. Thank you so much. Definitely check them out. [00:03:02] Speaker C: It's almost like once you start doing. [00:03:03] Speaker B: It, you almost have to he takes. [00:03:11] Speaker D: His hand and grabs his hat on top of his head while he's looking at it. [00:03:15] Speaker B: The Black Pondo podcast. [00:03:17] Speaker D: You can ask me anything. [00:03:19] Speaker C: I'll talk about whatever. [00:03:23] Speaker A: Nice. Okay. But yeah. How are you guys doing? What's been keeping you both busy lately? [00:03:31] Speaker B: Children. [00:03:32] Speaker C: Him. Yeah, that's me. [00:03:36] Speaker A: Yeah. They keep you busy? [00:03:37] Speaker C: Pretty much. [00:03:38] Speaker B: It kids. Yeah. [00:03:40] Speaker A: I understand that. Have you been able to do much collecting lately? [00:03:49] Speaker B: I've done a little a little more than last year. [00:03:52] Speaker D: But Steve's been getting a lot done. [00:03:55] Speaker C: So every weekend or every chance I get. [00:03:57] Speaker B: I popped my knee, what, three weeks ago? [00:04:02] Speaker C: Almost a month ago, I guess. Just I don't know if the MCL or it's one of the L's in. [00:04:08] Speaker B: Your knee. [00:04:12] Speaker C: So I've been kind of taking it easy on that and it's. [00:04:15] Speaker B: Getting a little better, so I wasn't. [00:04:18] Speaker C: Even packing out a tree, thank God. Well, I was kind of sort of. [00:04:22] Speaker D: I'm coming to you since you won't. [00:04:24] Speaker C: Come closer to me. [00:04:25] Speaker B: Well. [00:04:31] Speaker A: Boy, I knew you guys liked each other, but I'm making you get real close here. [00:04:38] Speaker C: I like it. [00:04:40] Speaker D: You have worst bo the end of the day. [00:04:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:46] Speaker A: I guess. [00:04:47] Speaker C: How's your garden coming? [00:04:51] Speaker A: It's going good. I'm having a koi pond built right now. [00:04:56] Speaker B: Oh, sweet. [00:04:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I think they're going to be pouring the cement tomorrow, so they're doing like a monolithic pour. So they built out all these what do you call them? Like, the framing for it. And they're just going to pour it all tomorrow, so I'm very excited about that. [00:05:15] Speaker C: So they're just going to kind of freehand the pond then, as far as finishing it? [00:05:20] Speaker A: Yes. [00:05:22] Speaker C: That's sweet. That'll look cool. [00:05:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm excited. I'll definitely be posting lots of pictures. Yeah, for me, it's funny, like, I actually thought about the idea of getting a koi pond first when I was up in the mountains, up in the Sierra, and I think I was eating my lunch by a tree and there was a river there, and I could see some trout in the river. And just the thought of fish and Sierra junipers and rock, that's really what I want in my garden. And it reminds me of the Sierra. It's not exactly I was thinking it'd be cool to have a trout pond or something like that with your trees, but I think that's unrealistic and would be hard. [00:06:15] Speaker C: They're high maintenance, for sure. [00:06:18] Speaker D: I need a lot colder water. I've looked into it too. [00:06:22] Speaker A: Yeah, you've looked into it. [00:06:23] Speaker B: Nice. [00:06:25] Speaker A: Very cool. Was that more so for fishing or just to be a cool feature in your multi garden? [00:06:32] Speaker B: A feature in the garden with trout, but it would be difficult for sure. [00:06:40] Speaker C: Koi are just double tough. You can't hardly kill them dang things. [00:06:44] Speaker B: They're just my daughter had a goldfish. [00:06:49] Speaker C: She won at the Cheyenne Frontier Days, or she didn't win it. [00:06:53] Speaker B: It was a little kid came up. [00:06:55] Speaker C: To her and held the bag with the fish in it and said, you want my fish? Mom says she's going to flush it down the toilet if you don't take it. And so she took it. [00:07:06] Speaker B: And that thing was like almost ten. [00:07:09] Speaker C: Years old, and she had a huge. [00:07:12] Speaker B: It was probably maybe ten inches long. Wow. [00:07:18] Speaker C: And her husband cleaned the water and killed it. [00:07:22] Speaker A: Oh, no. [00:07:23] Speaker C: Yeah, he thought he was doing a favor and cleaned up the bowl that. [00:07:27] Speaker B: She added in, and it just bellied up. So he was in trouble yeah, absolutely. [00:07:37] Speaker A: Well, hey, thank you guys so much for joining me tonight. I really, really appreciate it. It's been so fun to follow you guys on Instagram and on the forums, and it was a great experience for me to drive out to Wyoming, pick up a couple trees, and drive all the way back. [00:07:59] Speaker C: That was a speed trip, for sure. [00:08:02] Speaker A: It was definitely a speed trip. But the Ponderosa that I got from you is still doing well. We repotted it this spring. We did a very light repotting, but it's grown strong. [00:08:14] Speaker B: All right. [00:08:15] Speaker A: I want you to know that. [00:08:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I love it. [00:08:17] Speaker C: Always worry about them, especially a tree like that. When you get it to somebody, you're always kind of wanting to see what they get done with it. I mean, it's really cool to watch the transition and the evolution of them. [00:08:34] Speaker A: Absolutely. Completely agree with that. And I feel like it's moving a little bit slow, but I'm purposely doing that. I just want to make sure it's rock solid. I'm way more concerned about the health as opposed to pushing it along too fast. I don't want to overdo it, so I'm just taking it nice and slow and making sure that it stays really healthy. [00:08:56] Speaker C: Well, I think that's a very wise choice myself. Slow is good. [00:09:02] Speaker B: Have the grafts taken, or have you done it yet? [00:09:05] Speaker A: So we did one round of grafting. [00:09:09] Speaker B: And. [00:09:11] Speaker A: I think we got about three to take, but we probably put on, like, eleven or something like that. So it got a little bit of spider mites last year, and so it wasn't, like, super vigorous. And I think that when trees are very vigorous, they respond much better to the graphs taking. I've heard just in general, it's kind of hard to get Ponderosa to take the graphs they do, but it just is a little bit more challenging than some other species. [00:09:47] Speaker B: Nice. Awesome. [00:09:49] Speaker C: The old MTV robot guy. [00:09:52] Speaker B: You'll be going along then? You can? Awesome. [00:09:58] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I was hoping that maybe I could kind of jump into questions that I have for you, and then we actually got quite a few questions, maybe, like, close to 20 or so. And so the other thing is, if you guys need to take off at any time, or if we're going too long, just feel free to cut me off. Really value your time. Thank you guys so much for jumping on. One thing. I was hoping could you guys give me just a little bit of brief intro in terms of how you guys met and made a connection? [00:10:38] Speaker D: I met Steve at a bonsai class. [00:10:40] Speaker B: That my wife drugged me to. [00:10:43] Speaker D: And then the two older gentlemen that. [00:10:45] Speaker B: Were teaching the class brought Steve in to show off his collected trees and then just kind of all started hanging. [00:10:57] Speaker D: Out, doing both of together, and then started collecting together, I don't know, a. [00:11:01] Speaker B: Year or two after that. Probably Dan come in just full bore, man. [00:11:08] Speaker C: He hit it hard, and once he got interested in it, he learned more. [00:11:13] Speaker B: In, like, three years than I had in probably ten. [00:11:16] Speaker C: I mean, he was just sucking it up and soaking it in, and he kind of gathered all of us together and kind of got us into a club. He took the bull by the horns and really kind of made a club. [00:11:29] Speaker B: Out of the local people here. [00:11:35] Speaker C: First Saturday every month, get together and have lunch. Everybody does. And that's kind of because of Dan. [00:11:45] Speaker A: Nice work, Dan. [00:11:50] Speaker B: Got to hang out with the right people. Perfect. [00:11:54] Speaker A: And then so, Steve, how long have you been collecting trees now, approximately? [00:12:01] Speaker B: Well. [00:12:04] Speaker C: I started in, what, 97? But I used to go whitewater kayaking. [00:12:12] Speaker B: All the time, and I took it a little too far, shall we say. [00:12:21] Speaker C: My wife suggested that if she wanted to still be married, I ought to find something to do a little closer to home, maybe. So I took the hint, and I always thought bonsai was cool, so I got one. Talked to the two old fellers in. [00:12:39] Speaker B: Town that did bonsai and kind of. [00:12:43] Speaker C: Got started with them a little bit. [00:12:45] Speaker B: And then went up to the mountains. [00:12:47] Speaker C: And saw some trees in the rocks. [00:12:50] Speaker B: And I collected basically the first ponderosa I collected, I've still got wow. Just a little cascade, and it's not. [00:13:02] Speaker C: Much, but like I said, it's still alive, so that's a big plus. [00:13:08] Speaker B: Awesome. Six years ago holy shit. [00:13:12] Speaker C: The bed. Yeah, I guess it's been a while. [00:13:17] Speaker A: Very cool. And then, Dan, do you have somewhat of an obsessive personality, would you say, like Steve was saying, that you yeah. [00:13:31] Speaker B: That's fantastic. Some area is maybe not in others. Nice. [00:13:40] Speaker A: Is there, like, have any other point in your life have you been super passionate about another hobby or interest? [00:13:48] Speaker B: Guitar. I went pretty hardcore with guitar and. [00:13:53] Speaker D: Still play, but not near like I. [00:13:54] Speaker B: Did before I got too deep in the Bose. Got you. Cool. [00:14:03] Speaker C: The trees, they kind of grab you by the soul and don't let go, boy. I do kind of enjoy winter. It kind of gives me a little. [00:14:14] Speaker B: Break from watering, but other than that. [00:14:21] Speaker C: It'S what I do anymore. I mean, it's all about trees. [00:14:25] Speaker A: That's fantastic. [00:14:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:30] Speaker A: There's some echo that I'm hearing. Is this coming out kind of funky for you, or you think it's okay here? [00:14:38] Speaker D: Sorry. [00:14:39] Speaker C: I don't know if it's his living or his kitchen. Is a big room here. [00:14:44] Speaker B: It might be in it. Got you. Okay, move outside, see if it's so I'm just curious. [00:14:53] Speaker A: I feel like you both made a really good transition into collecting bonsai, and I'm curious if the things that you've done previously in your life, like hunting and whitewater rafting, that type of thing, did that help you get into collecting bonsai? And would you tell me a little bit about your background in kind of the outdoors in general. [00:15:20] Speaker D: I'd say it probably led to both. [00:15:22] Speaker B: Of our interest in collected trees, just. [00:15:26] Speaker D: Being the outdoors type. [00:15:30] Speaker C: And you're out and about in the mountains and you see these really cool, gnarled up trees. They've always interested me, and I've always been just taken aback by them. And you see some of the places trees are growing up in the mountains. [00:15:47] Speaker B: It's like you're trying to figure out. [00:15:50] Speaker C: How in the hell a seed got there and ever got started to get to be a tree that was eight. [00:15:55] Speaker B: Inches in diameter hanging off of a cliff. [00:16:01] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:16:02] Speaker C: Being out in the woods all the time, and then like the kayaking going down the river gorges, you'd see a lot of really cool trees. [00:16:11] Speaker B: So, yeah, it had to help on the interest, I'm sure. Nice. [00:16:18] Speaker A: Tell me a little bit more about the whitewater rafting. I'm just really curious. That sounds like a whole lot of fun and a little bit dangerous. [00:16:29] Speaker C: Well, one of the reasons I kind of quit is because I didn't like being scared anymore. I mean, that's part of it. That's the adrenaline rush. You start at the top of a. [00:16:41] Speaker B: Drop and you're just scared shitless. [00:16:44] Speaker C: You're thinking, oh, my God. What am I doing? And then you get to the bottom, it's like, yes, you're just happier than a pig and slop. Then it's all world. [00:16:53] Speaker B: But. [00:16:56] Speaker C: It was a lot of fun. But I started when I was probably in my 30s. But you see some of the younger kids and they're doing stuff that I. [00:17:08] Speaker B: Wouldn'T have done ever. [00:17:10] Speaker C: But when you're younger, you're bulletproof and you're never going to die. And you know how that is. And you start getting a little older and like, you know what? You go play for three days and it takes you five to heal up. [00:17:28] Speaker B: Yeah, but it was fun. [00:17:33] Speaker C: It was a blast. Anything worth floating from Douglas was 200 miles. So you had to drive 200 miles either south, east, north, or west. [00:17:46] Speaker B: Mostly north and west over into the. [00:17:50] Speaker C: Big Mountains out of Yellowstone and the Big Horns. Gotcha beautiful places. [00:17:59] Speaker B: I've never kayak, but I grew up. [00:18:02] Speaker D: Skiing, like downhill skiing and then backcountry. [00:18:04] Speaker B: Skiing with my dad and then backpack. [00:18:07] Speaker D: Trips in the summer. [00:18:08] Speaker B: And I've always grown up in the mountains, too, so it's just I don't know. [00:18:14] Speaker D: Collecting native trees out of the mountains just kind of seemed like the. [00:18:21] Speaker B: Natural thing to do. [00:18:23] Speaker A: Yeah, that's fantastic. [00:18:29] Speaker C: Looking for trees in the mountains. It's kind of like hunting in its own right, too. [00:18:37] Speaker B: You're wandering around and you top up over a little rise and there's a. [00:18:43] Speaker C: Beautiful tree with just gorgeous dread deadwood, and your heart drops into your socks and you run over there, you find out it won't come out. [00:18:54] Speaker B: Well, you know just. [00:18:58] Speaker C: What I'm saying. [00:19:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Unfortunately, I feel like a lot of them don't come out. It's like the majority yeah. [00:19:11] Speaker C: That'S a big, I think, misunderstanding a lot of people have on the collecting, too. [00:19:17] Speaker B: If it's done responsibly, if you go. [00:19:20] Speaker C: Up there and you jerk everything out. [00:19:21] Speaker B: You can possibly if you can see. [00:19:25] Speaker C: Two roots on it and you dig it and you know it's going to die. I mean, that's irresponsible. [00:19:29] Speaker B: But if you do it responsibly, you. [00:19:32] Speaker C: Can go up in the mountains and, you know, all well, you can walk. [00:19:36] Speaker B: For 4 hours and see 25, 30 trees. [00:19:41] Speaker C: That would be beautiful. Bonsai. And maybe two of them might come out with nominal or fair roots. And finding the one phenomenal tree that will come out with good roots is probably one in probably 400, for a rough guess. [00:20:01] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:20:03] Speaker D: Depending on the species. [00:20:04] Speaker C: Yeah, true. [00:20:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:08] Speaker A: It does seem to be quite rare where you can get something that actually has quite a bit of you know, I actually started out collecting utah juniper and a little bit of california juniper, but those two types of trees don't actually grow on rock. And for me, I couldn't get as good of a root system with those types of trees. It's a different type of collect. And I've really come to appreciate collecting up in the sierra, where it's all on rock, on granite, because you find those pocket trees and you can get so much root. It's so much nicer. Are all the trees that you guys collect for the most part on rock, would you say? [00:20:54] Speaker B: I'd say 98% of them, if not 100%. [00:20:59] Speaker C: Basically, yeah. [00:21:00] Speaker D: Conifers that's basically just what we focus. [00:21:03] Speaker B: On is rough now, like the aspens. [00:21:06] Speaker D: And stuff, they're in the ground for sure. [00:21:10] Speaker A: What's collecting an aspen, like digging? [00:21:16] Speaker D: Just dig around it and lift it. [00:21:20] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:21:21] Speaker D: People have different opinions on removing field soil, but with any deciduous tree, I'm. [00:21:28] Speaker B: A lot more brutal with soil removal. [00:21:32] Speaker D: If I dig them in the fall, I've brought them home, kind of bagged up with all of the field soil. [00:21:37] Speaker B: Around them and then just leave the. [00:21:39] Speaker D: Top open and poke holes in the bottom and keep them moist for the winter. And then I do the root work in the spring. [00:21:44] Speaker B: But I prefer digging them in spring. [00:21:48] Speaker D: Right before they as the buds are swelling, and then I just do all the root work and soil removal right there. It's easier to pack them out, bring. [00:21:57] Speaker B: Them on, and they do great. [00:22:01] Speaker A: Yeah, it would seem that spring would be a good time to collect them. [00:22:06] Speaker D: Yeah, as long as you can get to them. [00:22:08] Speaker C: That's the herein lies the problem sometimes. [00:22:11] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Too much snow. [00:22:16] Speaker B: Been years where yeah, exactly. [00:22:19] Speaker C: You've got a drift that's keeping you from going. It's clear. The road can be clear on either side, but you got a big old drift, you can't get around it. [00:22:26] Speaker B: So you're either stuck trying to walk. [00:22:30] Speaker C: 5 miles to a good tree spot, or you don't go. [00:22:37] Speaker B: Wait another month. [00:22:39] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Question that I'm really curious about is are you guys selling a lot of trees to the general public these days or have you kind of transitioned your business over just to working with professionals? [00:22:56] Speaker B: But yeah, we're pretty much just filling. [00:23:01] Speaker D: Orders from professionals for now and then if we have trees left at the end of the year, a lot of times those will get offered up to some people that have been asking us. [00:23:12] Speaker B: But we're just trying to keep up with what the pros want is kind. [00:23:17] Speaker D: Of what we've had time for, for the most part. [00:23:22] Speaker A: I think that's good. [00:23:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know. [00:23:27] Speaker D: Selfishly, I really hate shipping boxing and shipping individual trees and trying to trust. [00:23:31] Speaker B: FedEx or Ups to handle that without destroying something or even just doing a. [00:23:38] Speaker D: Whole crate for one tree is, yeah, tell people, well, here's the price for the tree, but it's going to need a crate. So looking at $500 to ship it to you, on top of the price. [00:23:54] Speaker C: There'S a little bit of sticker shock or shipping shock, shall we say, on that one. [00:24:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that makes a whole lot of sense, just all that time and effort and just going back and forth with individual people and dealing with shipping. [00:24:13] Speaker B: And. [00:24:16] Speaker A: I feel like it would be a much better way to go just to deal with professionals, sell a lot of trees at one time. That would just make a lot more sense to me. [00:24:26] Speaker B: And it's not that we won't sell. [00:24:28] Speaker D: To people, it's just logistically, it's so. [00:24:30] Speaker B: Much easier for us to pro comes. [00:24:33] Speaker D: Out and says, all right, I want these 15 2030 trees, and they load them up in a truck and drive home with them versus, like you said, all the back and forth. Some people are serious and then other people are, oh, well, can I see 15 different angles and pictures? And I want the caliper at the base and then two inches up, and then, how tall is it? And then 15 emails later, they say. [00:24:54] Speaker B: I think I will wait. [00:24:58] Speaker D: It's easier for a pro to come and say I want it or I don't. [00:25:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I completely understand that. I don't think you should feel bad in any ways. I mean, you could spend that time that you would have to boxing everything up, shipping it, dealing with people out in the mountains where I feel like we would like to see you spending more time collecting. [00:25:24] Speaker D: And we did. Like, we supplied a bunch of trees for the ABS seminars in Denver this. [00:25:31] Speaker B: Year for a couple of so we dug trees. [00:25:36] Speaker D: We wouldn't necessarily normally dig for that. I mean, they're still good trees and worth more than the price of the. [00:25:44] Speaker B: Workshops was, but still, I don't know. [00:25:49] Speaker D: The type of trees we want to collect and get into the American Bones community. Unfortunately, they're not as accessible to everyone. [00:25:59] Speaker B: But maybe at the same time, we. [00:26:02] Speaker D: Kind of prefer to see those go to professionals that we really know are. [00:26:06] Speaker B: Going to take them to the level they need to be taken to. [00:26:11] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:26:13] Speaker C: Well. [00:26:16] Speaker B: When you've got a tree, I. [00:26:18] Speaker C: Did some cross sections, and I did an Instagram post on it here a couple of days ago about aging some trees that I'd lost. And when you've got a tree that. [00:26:30] Speaker B: Was. [00:26:32] Speaker C: Two inches in diameter and it's got 400 growth rings in it, you start looking at your trees a little bit differently. I respected them before, but after you realize how old some of these are, you really get a respect for them. [00:26:48] Speaker B: And you think, well, some Native American. [00:26:54] Speaker C: Might have napped an arrowhead next to this thing, for cran out loud. [00:26:57] Speaker B: Or a mountain man wandered by it. [00:27:02] Speaker C: Stepped on it when he was going by, or what. Have you any scenario you can think of? [00:27:07] Speaker B: But. [00:27:10] Speaker C: It makes you feel responsible for the tree to a degree. You just don't want to give it to a guy that's just starting in. [00:27:16] Speaker B: Bonsai and he's got a good he means well, but you know that he's. [00:27:24] Speaker C: Going to just fiddle fart with it until it's dead. So you try to try to weed through and find people that have been studying with good professionals and you try to ask a few questions, make sure that they really are into the bonsai to the level that the tree needs, shall we say. I don't know if I'm explaining that. [00:27:51] Speaker B: Right, but. [00:27:53] Speaker A: 100%. [00:27:57] Speaker C: You worry about the tree. And it is a respect thing because just like you won't try to pop a tree out that you know is not going to make it just because you think it's the greatest tree in. [00:28:12] Speaker B: The world, but you think maybe this. [00:28:15] Speaker C: Juniper will grow some roots if I pop it off. And there's four roots there, so maybe it'll make it, well, you know. Dang good. Well, it ain't going to. [00:28:22] Speaker B: So you just sit down, soak it in and walk on. [00:28:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I completely agree with you. They're really ancient trees and they really demand our respect. We got to respect our Yamadori. It's such great quality. I was curious, Steve, how are you counting the rings on those trees? And is that really challenging? Because after about twelve, counting about twelve rings, I'd probably lose my place. And did you have to start over like 20 times? [00:29:04] Speaker C: It all depends if my wife had something to say and then I'd start listening to her and I'd lose track. [00:29:09] Speaker D: But you're a good husband. Yeah, well, my wife would probably three or four or five times been trying to get my attention and go, oh, what? [00:29:19] Speaker C: Well, but I've got a Binocular microscope that I just bought it off ebay, and I'm not sure what the power is. [00:29:29] Speaker B: It's at least 100, I think, because. [00:29:35] Speaker C: All it has is a one and. [00:29:36] Speaker B: A two times on the eyepiece or the ocular or whatever, the part that. [00:29:46] Speaker C: Looks at the start of your lens. [00:29:48] Speaker B: And then it's got two lenses you look into, like a set of binoculars. [00:29:54] Speaker C: And it's got a light on it, shines light down on what you're looking at, and you can focus it and everything. It didn't cost me more than I think I paid maybe 60, $80 for it. [00:30:07] Speaker B: It was used, but it works perfect for what that is. Yeah. [00:30:13] Speaker A: That's so cool. I'm glad that you're doing that. What have you found? How old are some of those trees? [00:30:25] Speaker C: Well, the limbers, they're really far reaching. It all depends on where they're at, the water that they get. [00:30:37] Speaker B: Like this. [00:30:38] Speaker C: Said the one of them I had, I counted, and it got really hard to count the rings because they were. [00:30:44] Speaker B: So tight, and you can see the cells in the wood, but you're trying. [00:30:52] Speaker C: To make sure you're not counting cellular lines, cellular divisions, instead of the growth rings when they get so small. But that one I had, I think it was 454 rings, and it was maybe two and a half inches in diameter. And then there was the second oldest one was 364, and it was probably four and a half inches in diameter and five foot tall. And then another one was about the same size as the first one, about same diameter, and it was only 128 years old. The first one had a lot of deadwood on one side, kind of like a lot like the junipers will desiccate on one side. And the youngest one had good living bark or cambium layer all the way around it. It didn't have any deadwood on it. [00:31:52] Speaker B: So that's a way to judge it. [00:31:55] Speaker C: I guess. If you got a bunch of deadwood, then it's gone through a few more years. [00:32:05] Speaker A: All right, so one thing I'm really curious about is, are there any goals that either of you guys have somewhat bontai related? Anything you guys really want to accomplish still? I mean, you guys have done such an incredible job with collecting all this. Absolutely phenomenal Yamadori. But anything, personally, that you guys are. [00:32:28] Speaker B: Working on, I need to get more. [00:32:35] Speaker C: Into the design end of it. As far as potting, I'm comfortable as. [00:32:42] Speaker B: Can be with repotting, because you box. [00:32:49] Speaker C: 60, 70 trees a year, which is nothing compared to, say, Randy. So you get to see a lot of root pads and you kind of understand them a little more, which helps a lot in collecting, too, actually understanding the different styles of root pads repotted into balls. [00:33:12] Speaker D: I pot quite a few trees at this point, too. [00:33:14] Speaker C: Yeah, but the actual design of the tree flummoxes me. I'm such a big chicken, I'm scared to death to cut the wrong damn branch. And then all of a sudden, I've ruined the tree. [00:33:30] Speaker B: You haven't run into that problem yet. [00:33:33] Speaker C: That's because I'm chicken. I don't do nothing. I just let them grow into hippies. I got a lot of live trees, but they're hippies. They're unkempt, shall we say. [00:33:47] Speaker A: Steve, do you work on your trees in a bonsai club or some type of workshop type format very often or do you usually do work by yourself or maybe with Dan? [00:33:58] Speaker C: Dan and I will do stuff together. [00:34:00] Speaker B: Sometimes, but Dan usually that's one thing. [00:34:05] Speaker C: He's really helped us out a bunch is he started calling professionals years ago. [00:34:11] Speaker B: I mean, the first person he got. [00:34:12] Speaker C: Out here was. [00:34:16] Speaker B: Owen Reich. [00:34:17] Speaker C: And he did a few trees for us and we thought, well, that was a lot of fun. So then Dan started getting some of. [00:34:25] Speaker B: The bigger name professionals come and it's. [00:34:30] Speaker C: Really been an eye opener. [00:34:33] Speaker B: You see this? Like Ryan or Bjorn. [00:34:36] Speaker C: Wiring a tree is like holy mean. They just goes lickety split and they've got it. [00:34:44] Speaker B: It's it's really been interesting and so much fun. [00:34:49] Speaker C: And then we get Tod Schlafer comes. [00:34:52] Speaker B: Up and works with us once in. [00:34:55] Speaker C: The fall and once in the spring. And Tod's a he's a stellar individual. He's a lot of fun. [00:35:02] Speaker B: Awesome. [00:35:04] Speaker D: When you have trees they want, this is true nice. And then financially, it's easier for us. [00:35:13] Speaker B: To barter with trees. [00:35:16] Speaker D: And then when they've got a pre order, then we just knock up. [00:35:20] Speaker B: They do a little bit of work with us for a day or two or three and then that just comes out of the trees. [00:35:29] Speaker D: We don't have to explain to the. [00:35:30] Speaker B: Wives why we just wrote a check. [00:35:33] Speaker D: To Ryan Neil for however much. [00:35:37] Speaker B: Yeah, if it was just doing it without having the barter have, they wouldn't be here. Makes total sense. [00:35:50] Speaker C: We're pretty spoiled. By golly. [00:35:52] Speaker B: We've got some of the best Yamadori. [00:35:55] Speaker C: Country in the world. [00:35:56] Speaker B: And then. [00:36:00] Speaker C: As I've told Dan more than once, we're just spoiled shits. [00:36:07] Speaker B: We're lucky. [00:36:08] Speaker C: Or lucky, I guess. [00:36:09] Speaker A: Yeah, you definitely are lucky. Dan, what about you? What kind of goals do you have with. [00:36:18] Speaker B: I'll just keep growing, keep building a collection, nice trees, weed out a few as I get too many for. [00:36:29] Speaker D: Nicer ones, but not anything too crazy. I really like the whole process from. [00:36:40] Speaker B: Beginning to end of finding the tree or Steve finding the tree either way, but a nice tree. And then the design process and then potting refinement and get it to a show. [00:36:54] Speaker D: Get it to show even some of the trees I've shown. I still have goals to refine them more and then show them again. The future a lot more refined. [00:37:04] Speaker B: And then just heck, I grow seedlings and cuttings and if I find a nice maple trunk I like and get. [00:37:13] Speaker D: It and just refining those, I really just enjoy the whole thing. And then I don't know. I personally like teaching and then kind of sharing my love for bones. [00:37:22] Speaker B: So I go around and teach at different events and to different clubs and stuff. [00:37:29] Speaker A: That's awesome. [00:37:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:33] Speaker A: Definitely. And you're also working on creating a bonsai garden, right? [00:37:38] Speaker B: Yes. Slowly. Yeah, me too. [00:37:44] Speaker A: Slowly. [00:37:46] Speaker D: I think yours is moving a lot faster than mine. [00:37:51] Speaker A: Yeah, it takes a lot of work to create a bullseye garden, and it's a little expensive, so I got to take it slowly. [00:38:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Cool. [00:38:06] Speaker A: One thing I was really curious about is for both of you guys, what makes you decide to sell a tree as opposed to keep it? [00:38:15] Speaker B: Well, as you know, you come out. [00:38:19] Speaker C: Upon a tree, and if it's something that just Enamores you, it does it right from the start. Usually it does for me. You're like, oh, man, that ain't going nowhere. And then there's other ones that. [00:38:37] Speaker B: Sometimes. [00:38:38] Speaker C: You fall out of love with them. You're like, yeah, it's not the greatest thing. I could sell that, I guess. And there's some of them where he sold that. [00:38:48] Speaker B: I've had regret afterwards, too, but I've. [00:38:53] Speaker C: Got a better chance of finding another tree than people that bought the tree. [00:38:58] Speaker B: So I guess it all works out. That's true. [00:39:03] Speaker C: And Dan was telling me not to. I says, oh, I'll find another one. He says, no, if you like it, you need to keep it. [00:39:11] Speaker A: Okay, good advice. [00:39:14] Speaker D: I mean, I've sold trees, too, that. [00:39:16] Speaker B: I wouldn't mind getting back, but I don't know. At the same time, I really enjoy. [00:39:22] Speaker D: Seeing them progress, whether it's with me. [00:39:24] Speaker B: Or with somebody else, so I don't know. I have certain trees that I absolutely. [00:39:30] Speaker D: Love and would be really hard to. [00:39:31] Speaker B: Sell, and then other ones that I. [00:39:34] Speaker D: Really like, but if somebody wanted it bad enough, it'd be a little easier. [00:39:37] Speaker B: To let go, depending on who it was, too. Yeah, I don't know. We collect enough trees that you're just. [00:39:46] Speaker D: Kind of looking at them every day. [00:39:48] Speaker B: Watering and checking on stuff, and sometimes. [00:39:51] Speaker D: One really just kind of settles with you, and you go, you know that one, I think that one's going to stay with me. Then other ones, it's an amazing tree because that's why we collected it, but. [00:40:03] Speaker B: It can move on to somebody else, so I don't know. [00:40:07] Speaker A: Got. You can't keep all of them. [00:40:11] Speaker B: Well, that's it. You could and then size, too. [00:40:17] Speaker C: You'll get some bigger. We'll bring down some bigger trees, and you're thinking, well, God, I'd love to have that tree. [00:40:25] Speaker B: And then you're thinking, oh, my God. [00:40:28] Speaker C: How am I going to move this damn thing? So a lot of times the smaller and the medium size kind of win. [00:40:37] Speaker B: Out a little bit just on the wintering. Because here, like, I've got a gravel bed that I bury them in. [00:40:45] Speaker C: So every fall, then, just before the bad weather starts, I dig them all. [00:40:53] Speaker B: Into the gravel and bury them and put everything else into a cold, so. [00:41:01] Speaker C: And that's a lot of work. [00:41:02] Speaker B: So being able to move them by. [00:41:05] Speaker C: Yourself is kind of handy because otherwise I'm hollering at Dan to come over, my son to come over to help. [00:41:10] Speaker B: Me move trees, which they always do it, but Dan never complains. [00:41:15] Speaker C: My son never really complains, but I know he's going, oh, man, come on, dad. [00:41:21] Speaker D: I'm just like, oh, hey, I get to walk around Steve's trees again tonight. [00:41:24] Speaker B: Cool. [00:41:27] Speaker A: Awesome. Yeah, I know I've asked my wife to help me move some big trees before, and I feel bad about that, but sometimes the real big ones, like, every once in a while, I just need a little bit of help. [00:41:44] Speaker D: You might have to join the Dingo Club before too long. [00:41:47] Speaker A: Yeah, I would like to join that club, actually. How much are those things? Do you have any idea? [00:41:55] Speaker D: I've looked them up. I think the ones I saw were. [00:41:58] Speaker B: Something like 2030 grand, which is out. [00:42:02] Speaker D: Of reach for me for now, but I'm sure there's used ones out there for less. [00:42:07] Speaker A: Wow, that's more than I thought. [00:42:11] Speaker B: Hopefully I'm wrong. [00:42:12] Speaker D: That's just in my head. [00:42:14] Speaker B: Got you. [00:42:15] Speaker A: I'll have to take a look. [00:42:17] Speaker C: That's where you just recruit your friends for a six pack of beer or whatever. It's a lot cheaper than the 20,000. [00:42:26] Speaker B: Totally. [00:42:30] Speaker A: One thing I was curious about is and if you guys don't want to answer this question or that's totally fine. I was curious, if you guys go out collecting together, how do you guys determine whose tree it is? Or is it just like, you guys split everything or how does that work? The way I've always done it, if I go out with someone, it's just like, whoever finds it, we generally market, and that is, like you have first dibs on that one. [00:43:03] Speaker D: As far as our business goes, when we collect together, when we sell them, they're 50 50. Just any trees we collect that day. [00:43:11] Speaker B: And then when we collect on our own, it's usually just ours. But then as far as, like, if there's a particular tree that one of. [00:43:23] Speaker D: Us really likes, then on a day that we're both at, we might say. [00:43:28] Speaker B: I'm pretty into that one. And then sometimes that might fall. [00:43:33] Speaker D: If we're both really into it, that. [00:43:34] Speaker B: Kind of falls down to whoever found it. If you find it, it's yours, basically. [00:43:40] Speaker C: And we always do kind of a little competition to see who can find the best treat for the day. [00:43:48] Speaker B: Kind of an unsaid thing, I think. [00:43:52] Speaker D: Biggest, best, smallest. Sometimes those all apply. [00:43:56] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. And if it's a tree that I. [00:44:01] Speaker B: Find, say, and I'm not wholly into. [00:44:05] Speaker C: It, and Dan's like, holy crap, what are you going to do with that? [00:44:08] Speaker B: It's yours. [00:44:13] Speaker C: If it's something that you totally in love with, then it's your tree. And if one of the other one, if if the other partner likes it. [00:44:23] Speaker B: Better than whoever wants it, gets it. [00:44:27] Speaker C: Kind of a thing. [00:44:27] Speaker B: And like Dan said, if we're doing. [00:44:30] Speaker C: It for the business, then it's 50 50. [00:44:33] Speaker B: When we're working together, out collecting, and. [00:44:37] Speaker C: Then if we're on our own, then. [00:44:38] Speaker B: It'S archery, the proceeds anyways. [00:44:41] Speaker C: That's about the only way you could. [00:44:42] Speaker B: Do it without having any kind of problems. Totally. [00:44:48] Speaker C: Dan's so hard to get along with. [00:44:52] Speaker D: I like Andy Smith saying, if it's. [00:44:55] Speaker B: Not fun, it's not both end. We always try to keep it pretty light and fun. [00:44:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's really important. That's why we're here, right? We're here to have fun. I mean, definitely we want to appreciate the trees. Exactly, but got to keep it light and have fun. [00:45:14] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:45:15] Speaker C: I mean, you can be serious about looking and finding the tree and everything, but when we get together, it's just a lot of fun. [00:45:25] Speaker B: We're you go that side, I go this side, and we'll work up a ridge and all of a sudden Dan's in front of me said, what are you doing? [00:45:36] Speaker C: This isn't your side. And he goes, Well, I saw full trees. So I always give him crap about. [00:45:44] Speaker B: Sneaking ahead of me. [00:45:47] Speaker D: Just old and slow. [00:45:49] Speaker C: Yeah, that's it. [00:45:53] Speaker D: Really fair because I feel like I always find most of. [00:45:55] Speaker B: The rattlesnakes and mountain lions and all that fun stuff. He needs to take his share of that. [00:46:01] Speaker C: It helps if you're deaf and you can't hear the rattlesnakes. [00:46:07] Speaker A: I am not a fan of snakes, I'll tell you what. Like one of my fears either. Spiders don't bother me for some reason. Well, I guess mountain lions would bother me, but snakes really bother me. Like, I'm scared to death of them. I just can't do it. You guys see a lot of rattlers out there? [00:46:26] Speaker D: Mostly when we're hunting junipers, maybe some. [00:46:29] Speaker B: Ponderosis, but you get high enough, you're. [00:46:32] Speaker D: Above them, and the only things out. [00:46:33] Speaker B: There are these little I think they're called grass snakes. Really pretty green, like an emerald green snake. [00:46:41] Speaker D: And they're not poisonous or anything, they're garter snakes. But bull snakes. Yeah, the rattlesnakes, they're in our juniper. [00:46:49] Speaker B: And ponderosa, little bit lower, elevation 7000 and below, basically. Yeah. [00:46:56] Speaker C: They never used to be at 7000. [00:46:58] Speaker B: But I found a den. What? [00:47:01] Speaker C: Six years ago. [00:47:03] Speaker B: And was walking along, had my dog with me and brush moved, and I. [00:47:10] Speaker C: Heard a bunch of ratling. And I realized the brush moved because he was laid out next to the. [00:47:16] Speaker B: Trail I was walking on, and he. [00:47:18] Speaker C: Coiled up, and that's what moved the grass. [00:47:20] Speaker B: And then. [00:47:23] Speaker C: My dog, he was going. [00:47:24] Speaker B: To come over and he was just. [00:47:26] Speaker C: A big old doofus and he was going to come over and see me and I had to yell at him to get back. So we got the heck out of there. But it really stinks too, because after you see one, then you're seeing them all damn day, a grasshopper flies off and you jump out of your skin. [00:47:44] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:47:45] Speaker D: They have to sound a lot like a rattlesnake sometimes. [00:47:48] Speaker B: Some of them do, yeah. [00:47:51] Speaker C: Or you come across a bull snake I seen one of them. [00:47:54] Speaker B: What was it, Sunday? [00:47:56] Speaker C: Scared to beat Jesus out of me. [00:48:00] Speaker D: What do you have for poisonous snakes. [00:48:02] Speaker B: Where you collect or do know? [00:48:05] Speaker A: I don't see very many. There's actually more rattlesnakes around. Where I live on the central coast, there's certain spots like there's this place that I used to go hiking called Montana de oro, and there was ratlesnakes there, but up in the sierra, I don't know why I haven't really looked into it, but I don't see very many snakes. [00:48:26] Speaker B: You're probably high enough elevation there could be. [00:48:31] Speaker A: What elevation do you guys generally find trees around. [00:48:37] Speaker B: Anywhere? [00:48:38] Speaker C: The junipers are from, what, 5005 to seven to eight? [00:48:45] Speaker B: Maybe nine. [00:48:47] Speaker C: But the ponderosa and the limbers, they're like I'd say seven ish. Well, the limber is more seven ish. [00:48:58] Speaker B: And then above ponderosas are probably, what, six, five, six above, and then once you get up to about eight, then. [00:49:10] Speaker C: You get into lodge pole, spruce. [00:49:13] Speaker B: Eight and nine. Around here? [00:49:17] Speaker C: Around here, yeah. [00:49:19] Speaker B: Cool. [00:49:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Sierra junipers seem to be about five and a half to nine, I'd say. That's kind of the range there. It's pretty big range. [00:49:32] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. [00:49:33] Speaker D: We run into a few high elevation rockies, but they're a lot more sparse where we really find a lot of the rockies. It's almost all rocky mountain junipers down low. [00:49:45] Speaker C: One of my primary juniper. [00:49:48] Speaker B: I just was telling Dan Sunday, you. [00:49:52] Speaker C: Find common junipers everywhere. You think? [00:49:55] Speaker B: Well, commons, they're just everywhere. [00:49:58] Speaker C: Well, this particular mountain doesn't have I've never seen a common on it, and it just struck me last Sunday that there's no commons at all on them. I was really looking for them then. [00:50:11] Speaker B: And I've never seen a common on it either. Maybe like one or two ponderosa pines. [00:50:18] Speaker C: Yeah, there's some there's some ponderosas on. [00:50:21] Speaker B: It, but that's no common junipers. And up in the mountains and the. [00:50:26] Speaker C: Higher elevations, they're everywhere. I've got a love hate relationship with. [00:50:35] Speaker B: The common junipers, but. [00:50:40] Speaker C: They'Re suicidal. [00:50:42] Speaker D: He's got quite the collection of them, though, and every time he posts one. [00:50:47] Speaker A: So any more kids for you, Dan, or are you tapped out? You got three, right? [00:50:53] Speaker D: Three boys, and there's one on the way. [00:50:57] Speaker A: One on the way. [00:50:59] Speaker B: Have you found one, though? [00:51:00] Speaker D: Last one, I was pretty sure I was done. [00:51:03] Speaker B: We don't know what it is yet, I guess, but yeah, not yet. [00:51:10] Speaker A: Congrats, man. That's awesome. [00:51:11] Speaker B: Thanks. [00:51:12] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:51:14] Speaker B: You didn't know that yet? [00:51:15] Speaker C: No, you're far from the last to. [00:51:20] Speaker B: Know, but yeah, I thought we were. [00:51:26] Speaker D: Done with three, but apparently we needed one more. [00:51:31] Speaker A: Congrats, man. Congrats. [00:51:34] Speaker B: Thanks. [00:51:36] Speaker D: Should know what it is soon. [00:51:38] Speaker B: Very cool. How about you? Very cool. [00:51:41] Speaker A: Two. I got a boy and a girl, and we're done. They're absolute joy, but also a whole lot of work and responsibility. [00:51:55] Speaker B: It's true. Yeah, it's true. A lot of work. [00:51:58] Speaker C: Yeah, but there's nothing better. They're worth every hour of work pouring. [00:52:07] Speaker A: Completely agree? Yeah. How many? [00:52:11] Speaker D: A lot of people say both I teachers. [00:52:15] Speaker B: What's that? [00:52:17] Speaker A: Oh, so sorry. I was going to say, do you have two boys? [00:52:21] Speaker B: Yes, boys. Two girls. [00:52:23] Speaker A: Two boys. Two girls. [00:52:24] Speaker B: Awesome. [00:52:26] Speaker A: Very nice. [00:52:27] Speaker C: The girls, they were very easy. I grew up with two brothers, so the girls just blew my mind. I didn't know why they were crying half the time. [00:52:38] Speaker B: But the boys my wife grew up. [00:52:41] Speaker C: With two sisters, so the boys blew her mind. So we got even with each other. She goes, what are them boys doing? [00:52:50] Speaker B: I said, we're doing boy stuff. [00:52:53] Speaker C: Why? Because destroying things. [00:52:57] Speaker D: My boys like to destroy everything. [00:52:59] Speaker A: I bet they can shake, break it. [00:53:02] Speaker D: Take it apart, whatever. [00:53:03] Speaker B: They will so far. [00:53:06] Speaker A: Oh, man. [00:53:08] Speaker B: Cool. [00:53:09] Speaker A: Cool. All right. Well, congrats, Dan. I'm really excited for you, and that will be fantastic. Why don't we jump back into it? Sure, sounds great. [00:53:24] Speaker C: Sorry about the interruption. [00:53:25] Speaker A: Oh, no worries. No worries at all. Let's see. Okay, so one question I have for you. We love to keep it fun and have fun when we are out collecting. However, is there anything that you don't like about collecting or anything that bothers you about collecting? [00:53:47] Speaker C: Um, the only thing that really I guess they would aggravate me more than anything is trying to get permits from the federal government. They've made that a job. [00:54:13] Speaker B: There was a lady that was we. [00:54:17] Speaker C: Tried to do a commercial permit thing here and talked with the foresters that they had for, I think it was about four years. And finally this lady, she was in charge of it, and she says, okay, we'll do it. [00:54:32] Speaker B: So. [00:54:35] Speaker C: Took six Forest Service employees up. [00:54:39] Speaker B: And showed them all what we went. [00:54:43] Speaker C: For a three mile walk and showed them trees and how you dig it and everything. By the end of it, when we. [00:54:51] Speaker B: Finally got our permission to dig the. [00:54:55] Speaker C: Trees, everything I told her that we needed was, like, trees in rock pockets and the older trees and everything was. [00:55:05] Speaker B: She pretty much said not to collect off rocks, just anything to kind of. [00:55:12] Speaker C: Curtail our collecting of the older trees. And it was pretty aggravating. So you just kind of mainly try to do more private land than anything else. [00:55:27] Speaker B: I mean, if you can get permission from an old rancher or whatever, they don't understand bonzai, most of them. They're like, okay, whatever, and you just. [00:55:39] Speaker C: Treat them good, and if they need. [00:55:40] Speaker B: Some help, you help them out and. [00:55:45] Speaker C: Just treat them well and treat their land like it's yours. So just respect them and their place, and they're all usually happy. I don't know. I kind of went off on a tangent on that one. [00:56:01] Speaker B: Sorry. [00:56:05] Speaker D: When you're out there, it's all pretty. [00:56:07] Speaker B: Much enjoyable, but it's always a whole. [00:56:10] Speaker D: Lot more work to back the trees back than it is to go find. [00:56:13] Speaker B: Them a little less fun. But I don't know. I enjoy the whole thing. [00:56:18] Speaker C: Well, that's like hunting in general, though. As soon as you shoot something, then the work starts. [00:56:23] Speaker B: So it's kind of the same, I guess. Yeah. [00:56:30] Speaker A: For me, I feel like when I am out there and sometimes I go collecting by myself, sometimes I go with somebody, I feel like I'm always on a little I'm kind of, like, on edge when I'm out there. And I think it's mostly just I want to be very aware of my surroundings at all time, and I don't want to get pounced on by a mountain lion. [00:56:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:59] Speaker A: Basically, I'm kind of, like just on a little bit of a high alert the whole time. And it's kind of hard for me to relax. And I will maybe during lunch or something, but I'm just kind of always looking over my shoulder and even though I'm enjoying myself and I kind of go in and out of really enjoying it, especially the treasure hunt kind of aspect to it. [00:57:29] Speaker B: Sure. [00:57:30] Speaker A: But then also just kind of just being on high alert, and it's something that I'm not sure if I am doing it right. Meaning I don't know if my mentality is right and I should be so amped up or if I need to take a chill pill and relax a bit. What do you guys think? [00:57:51] Speaker C: Well, it's situational awareness. That's not a bad thing at all. [00:57:57] Speaker B: But. [00:58:00] Speaker C: Being raised around it, we get kind of complacent a little bit, too. And then the more time you spend up there, the more relaxed you get with it. [00:58:14] Speaker D: Did you grow up in the mountains. [00:58:16] Speaker B: At all or, like, backcountry? [00:58:21] Speaker A: I definitely did not grow up in the mountains, although I was in Boy Scouts. And I was very lucky because my Scout Master was really into backpacking, and that was his passion. So he would take all these little Boy Scouts out to go on these gnarly backpack trips up in the Sierra, and I think that was a really good experience for me. And so I got exposed to being up in the mountains back then. That was great. But then got a driver's license, started really getting interested in girls and playing in a band and lost all interest in the mountains. And then basically after I got a desk job, I realized how incredible the mountains are, and it started really balancing me out, going up there and spending time up there, and I realized the beauty again. [00:59:22] Speaker D: I think for me it probably helps. [00:59:26] Speaker B: That I grew up out there and. [00:59:28] Speaker D: Then I've done a lot of hunting and I've guided hunters for a number. [00:59:32] Speaker B: Of years and I don't know, you're always ultra aware of your surroundings and. [00:59:40] Speaker D: I don't know, paying attention to everything. Maybe that comes just a little bit more naturally just from having done it. [00:59:47] Speaker B: So much that you don't have to. [00:59:49] Speaker D: Think about it quite so much. [00:59:51] Speaker B: And then, I don't know, even. [00:59:57] Speaker D: After maybe I should feel a little responsible for causing you to think about that more with the mountain lions. [01:00:03] Speaker B: But even after that, it doesn't scare me so much. It's always a possibility, but at least out here, I wouldn't say a very likely possibility. [01:00:19] Speaker D: And now if I don't have my dog with me, I probably am paying a little bit closer attention, just looking over my back a bit more often when I do have my dog with me. [01:00:29] Speaker B: That's kind of her job. [01:00:31] Speaker D: They have a lot better sense for all this than we do. And if she goes on high alert. [01:00:36] Speaker B: Or growls or barks or stops and. [01:00:39] Speaker D: Starts looking in some direction really intently. [01:00:41] Speaker B: That'S a cue for me to maybe. [01:00:45] Speaker D: Pay a little more attention. [01:00:46] Speaker B: But otherwise cats don't like dogs at all. [01:00:52] Speaker C: It's a good deterrent in its own way. [01:00:57] Speaker B: I lost my pre hunting dog, was. [01:01:02] Speaker C: It about four or three years ago. [01:01:05] Speaker B: I think he just got old, and. [01:01:08] Speaker C: He had a tumor on his leg. [01:01:10] Speaker B: So it was best for him to. [01:01:14] Speaker C: Go into the afterlife. So I pretty much go up by myself now. I pack a pistol with me, and hopefully I'll be sharp enough to be able to find one before he gets a hold of me. If he doesn't decide to try to take it. [01:01:34] Speaker B: But the ODS are pretty slim up here. I mean, they get hunted, so they're pretty spooked to people and all the time. I go up to the mountains every. [01:01:49] Speaker C: Weekend as soon as I can get. [01:01:50] Speaker B: Up there in April, March, if the. [01:01:54] Speaker C: Snow is low enough. And I have never seen one out hunting trees. I've seen one hunting going hunting in the morning once with my youngest son, and that's the only Mountaine I've ever seen. I don't know if I'm just paying attention to the trees, looking for trees. [01:02:15] Speaker B: More and just not seeing them, but. [01:02:20] Speaker C: The one that Dan ran into was really an anomaly. You just don't see him that often. [01:02:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess, Dan, I do blame you a little bit. [01:02:37] Speaker B: Probably the one thing I don't know. [01:02:40] Speaker D: Maybe some of this comes back to. [01:02:41] Speaker B: Being a dad with young kids and. [01:02:44] Speaker D: Married and all that, too. You think about coming home a little. [01:02:47] Speaker B: Bit more than maybe you would worry about it otherwise. But I'm a lot more careful on certain rocks and cliff edges and things than I maybe used to be or would be otherwise. I look out there and I think. [01:03:09] Speaker D: That looks like a pretty cool tree, but it also looks like a really good way to die. I think I'll pass on that one. I guess I would say I don't like. [01:03:20] Speaker B: Feeling unstable. Like I could easily slip off the rock. [01:03:25] Speaker D: So if it's too much, then if it's that good of a tree, it might be worth coming back with ropes. [01:03:31] Speaker B: And repelling down or at least being tied in. [01:03:34] Speaker D: But otherwise it's just like, you know. [01:03:36] Speaker B: That'S cool but not worth it. [01:03:40] Speaker D: That's probably more what puts me on. [01:03:44] Speaker B: High alert than the critters. Definitely. Yeah. [01:03:48] Speaker C: I feel like you know how it is if you get a skip of. [01:03:51] Speaker B: Rain or whatever on the granite and. [01:03:55] Speaker C: It'S got the lichen and moss or what have you and it's just slippery grease. [01:04:01] Speaker D: That's the other one. Lightning. I hate lightning when I'm up. There have been more than a couple. [01:04:08] Speaker B: Of occasions when we've been up there and the lightning is way too close for comfort. [01:04:15] Speaker D: When there's no rolling thunder and it's just cracking right over your head, you. [01:04:18] Speaker B: Know, it's too close. Yeah, that was fun and. [01:04:29] Speaker C: Spot that. [01:04:29] Speaker B: I just found and we were walking. [01:04:32] Speaker C: Around and saw this storm coming in, it's like, well, maybe we ought to get going. Oh heck, I don't know. We kind of him hard and didn't want to leave. [01:04:41] Speaker B: It was midday and it's like, well. [01:04:45] Speaker C: We probably ought to get scooting because you could see this black nasty thing coming at us. We got into a patch of trees. [01:04:51] Speaker B: And I started hailing. We headed to the patch of trees because often we hear this roar, does not sound good. [01:05:05] Speaker D: We got in under some heavy timber. [01:05:07] Speaker B: And found the thickest tree we could to hide under and I just remember. [01:05:14] Speaker C: The river water running down my running down the tree. [01:05:21] Speaker D: The ground was white with hail when it was done. [01:05:24] Speaker B: That was fun. [01:05:25] Speaker D: And then on the way back from there, that's when we were that was. [01:05:28] Speaker B: The worst lightning storm I've been up there for. Yeah. [01:05:33] Speaker C: So we were walking in the bottom. [01:05:34] Speaker B: Of this, the rolling kind of prairie. [01:05:38] Speaker C: Well, you got out of the trees and off the rocks and it was. [01:05:41] Speaker B: Kind of some rolling hills and the. [01:05:44] Speaker C: Difference between the bottom to the top of the ridge was probably maybe 50ft. So we're walking in the bottom of this but it's all gradual so it's. [01:05:55] Speaker B: More to make ourselves feel better than actual not making ourselves a target, I think. [01:06:03] Speaker C: But then we had to top out to get to the truck and the lightning is just hammering all the way around us. [01:06:10] Speaker B: It was exciting. [01:06:11] Speaker C: It was probably one of the worst. Yeah, that was nasty trips. [01:06:16] Speaker B: We've had been in a few of those but that was the worst. Yeah. [01:06:20] Speaker C: When you can feel all the hair. [01:06:22] Speaker B: On your arms standing up, you know. [01:06:25] Speaker C: You'Re too damn close. [01:06:28] Speaker D: We wear really big boots, so the. [01:06:31] Speaker B: Soles, I think that helps. One thing, I don't know if you've. [01:06:36] Speaker D: Ever seen that course that's out now there's called survival med. That'd be a good one to take. [01:06:41] Speaker B: But they cover all sorts, they're doctors. [01:06:45] Speaker D: But they're also outdoor enthusiasts and they kind of say here are the facts and here's what you actually need to. [01:06:50] Speaker B: Know in survival situations and all that nice, pretty good. But their section on lightning gets you. [01:07:02] Speaker D: Thinking because apparently most of the people that are struck by lightning aren't actually struck from above. They're struck through the ground currents, so it doesn't even hit the person that. [01:07:10] Speaker B: Goes up through the ground. [01:07:13] Speaker A: Doesn't granite conduct electricity? I think I've heard of people in Yosemite getting electrocuted. Just high elevation. And being on the granite. [01:07:27] Speaker C: I'm not sure. It's not good chance. I don't think it's got know I'm not sure. It might. [01:07:36] Speaker A: Or maybe it was just because it was such high elevation. It was the highest point, and that's why it hit them. I think it was like, what is it, half dome? I'm pretty sure I've seen things. [01:07:48] Speaker B: Half dome. [01:07:49] Speaker A: Yeah. People getting struck by lightning somehow up there during a storm. But lightning freaks me out as well. Being up there especially scary. [01:07:59] Speaker B: More than once in Yosemite, quite a few times there. [01:08:03] Speaker A: I think if you're in your car, you're safe, though, right? The rubber on your tires, yeah. [01:08:09] Speaker C: Your car, not so much, but you're okay. [01:08:12] Speaker B: Nice. [01:08:14] Speaker A: Have you been injured while collecting or what's? Kind of like the worst that you've been injured? [01:08:23] Speaker C: Taking a few tumbles here and there. [01:08:29] Speaker B: Just popping my knees. [01:08:31] Speaker C: Probably the worst thing that's ever happened to me. [01:08:33] Speaker B: Well, that and I started having oh, it wasn't gout, but, like, my second. [01:08:43] Speaker C: Toe in my second toe from the. [01:08:47] Speaker B: Big toe was all I went to. [01:08:51] Speaker C: Podiatrist on it because it hurt like hell when I was walking. Felt like there was a rocking issue. And he said it was from wearing my work boots. [01:09:03] Speaker B: I always wore ones with kind of a heel on them, like packers per. [01:09:10] Speaker C: Se, kind of cowboy boots, but not really. And he said it was from having your heel up. And I needed to do a bunch. [01:09:19] Speaker B: Of stretches and stuff, and I just. [01:09:22] Speaker C: Bought some shoes that didn't have heels. [01:09:24] Speaker B: On them, and that helped. But when I go looking for trees. [01:09:30] Speaker C: And say, if you do, like, 810 miles, then it start really bothering me. [01:09:36] Speaker B: But that's about the extent of it. [01:09:39] Speaker C: Like Dan said, if you're up there by yourself, you consciously don't take the chances that you would if you were with somebody. [01:09:48] Speaker B: Like going out on a point or on kind of a slippery slope where there's a 30 foot drop off on. [01:09:59] Speaker C: The other side, you just kind of. [01:10:00] Speaker B: Hang back, and you got to think. [01:10:02] Speaker C: Of these things through, because if something does happen and you're two 3 miles. [01:10:08] Speaker B: In, it's kind of hard to get help to you. [01:10:11] Speaker C: I do carry an in reach now. [01:10:14] Speaker B: Yeah, we both carry those garmin. [01:10:17] Speaker D: SOS deal. [01:10:19] Speaker B: You can hit a button, and it'll send out an SOS signal to 911 and mark your location and everything. So we carry those. That's smart. [01:10:29] Speaker A: Very smart. Nice. Any injuries for you, Dan? [01:10:34] Speaker C: I fall off a cliff, I want some. [01:10:36] Speaker B: What's that? [01:10:37] Speaker C: Nothing serious. [01:10:38] Speaker B: Tumbles and scrapes and cactus and nothing too bad. [01:10:43] Speaker C: Yeah, sitting in a cactus is probably the premium one. That I've done worse than any two pairs suck. [01:10:52] Speaker A: Did Dan pull those out for you, Steve? [01:10:54] Speaker D: Nope. [01:10:56] Speaker B: He wouldn't even look at me. [01:10:58] Speaker C: No, but my wife did. God love that woman. That's when you know your wife really loves you. [01:11:05] Speaker A: Absolutely. Awesome. [01:11:10] Speaker B: Had a gash in my arm and a bunch of cactus all over. That was about the worst one gotcha. [01:11:19] Speaker A: Well, I think if it's all right, I think we should jump into the questions that I got on Instagram and Bonsai Nut, if that's yep, yep. And I do apologize for anyone listening. There is a bit of a lag here, so that's why we keep talking over each other. But I'm just going to ask a question and then let you guys so all right, the first question we got from Instagram was from Mr. Diaz, and he was asking, do you have any tips for common juniper, especially, like, just being able to keep them alive or what's your experience with them? [01:12:05] Speaker C: For me, I'm really selective on the. [01:12:10] Speaker B: Commons that I'll dig. It's got to have, like. [01:12:16] Speaker C: Damn near 100% of the root, a fine root. [01:12:19] Speaker B: Mass right close with it, and then you'll have, like, two or three, say. [01:12:30] Speaker C: Little finger size or chopstick size roots going away from it, and they'll go for 16ft. But if you've got that good, fine. [01:12:42] Speaker B: Root pad right underneath it, then you've. [01:12:46] Speaker C: Got fairly good luck. [01:12:48] Speaker B: So you'll pop your bigger roots loose and take the pad and then try. [01:12:55] Speaker C: Not I don't work any of the soil out of the roots or anything. [01:12:59] Speaker B: Not much. [01:13:00] Speaker C: I'll take maybe a hose with a. [01:13:03] Speaker B: Light stream and wash a lot of the mucky soil off, but I don't. [01:13:09] Speaker C: Work through the roots with a root hook or nothing. [01:13:12] Speaker B: And I'll save everything I got and. [01:13:15] Speaker C: Then build a box for it that's about the right size, just a little. [01:13:19] Speaker B: Bit bigger, and then put them in shade for the whole summer so they. [01:13:26] Speaker C: Get a little bit of light first. [01:13:27] Speaker B: Thing in the morning, but they're in. [01:13:29] Speaker C: Shade the rest of the day. And then if they come out of it in the spring and they show growth the next spring, then I'll put. [01:13:38] Speaker B: Them in full light and they do great. Put them in pumice like everything else. [01:13:44] Speaker C: Yeah, just put them in straight pumice. [01:13:47] Speaker B: And the ones that we've done, the. [01:13:51] Speaker C: One that I've got that's in a good pot, I planted it originally in decomposed granite and wood chips was when. [01:14:01] Speaker B: I first started, and. [01:14:06] Speaker C: Old Tod Schlafer helped me repot that one. And it was pretty much a slip know, we just slipped it out of the one I had it in. We took a little bit off, not. [01:14:16] Speaker B: Much, and we just put it into straight pumice again. [01:14:20] Speaker C: And talking with most of the people. [01:14:23] Speaker B: We'Ve talked to had said that, like. [01:14:26] Speaker C: In Europe, I guess they don't use Akadama with the Commons. The person that we talked to about. [01:14:32] Speaker B: It had said that the people he'd. [01:14:35] Speaker C: Talked to had said that they didn't. [01:14:37] Speaker B: Use akadama with the commons. [01:14:41] Speaker C: I don't know. I water mine just as I do the other junipers. [01:14:49] Speaker B: I probably water too much, but they're. [01:14:54] Speaker C: Still alive, so I'm happy. [01:14:57] Speaker A: Nice. So more finicky than rocky mountain junipers. [01:15:02] Speaker C: Oh, boy. [01:15:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:15:07] Speaker C: They don't like having their roots. [01:15:08] Speaker B: Fiddled with at all. And you'll find one, and you think. [01:15:13] Speaker C: Oh, there's a good pad below it, and it turns out that all the pad is moss and grass, and it's got one root the size of your. [01:15:21] Speaker B: Middle finger that's running for 60ft, and. [01:15:26] Speaker C: You cut that root, and it's dead. All I can say is you got to have a really good, fine root pad below it. I mean, better than you would for a juniper. [01:15:37] Speaker B: A rocky mountain got you my experience. And then as you have it in. [01:15:47] Speaker C: The shade, it'll die back. [01:15:48] Speaker B: I'd say almost by interspersed in the canopy. [01:15:55] Speaker D: They shed a lot of the interior. [01:15:56] Speaker B: Growth and stuff, but that's not a bad sign. [01:16:00] Speaker D: If the tree is selectively shedding some foliage and saving others, that's a good. [01:16:05] Speaker B: Sign that the tree is making the. [01:16:08] Speaker D: Changes and adjustments it needs to. [01:16:11] Speaker C: When it's bad is when all of. [01:16:13] Speaker B: A sudden it starts turning that off. [01:16:16] Speaker C: Green color, and you're thinking, oh, that's looking a little bad, and you're touching it. It's crispy. [01:16:20] Speaker B: Critter. So when they decide to give it up, they just give it up. Yeah. [01:16:26] Speaker C: Way more so than the junipers, than. [01:16:29] Speaker B: The rocky mountains do. Gotcha. Perfect. [01:16:34] Speaker A: Thank you so much for that answer. All right, the next question very serious question from forest pass. I think they're wondering why Steve is so powerful. The question is, what does Steve eat for? I think that they're probably looking for something like I just envision. You saying something super epic here, like elk and lucky charms or just something crazy like that. [01:17:07] Speaker C: Half a gallon of coffee. [01:17:09] Speaker B: Cold coffee. It has to be cold. [01:17:11] Speaker C: I don't mind cold coffee at all. [01:17:14] Speaker D: He won't drink my coffee fresh. [01:17:15] Speaker B: It has to get cold before he drinks. It. [01:17:17] Speaker C: Could be a day old too. [01:17:18] Speaker B: It's still fine. Awesome. [01:17:22] Speaker C: But actually, I just started about three weeks ago. I don't eat breakfast at all. I go till lunch. I started doing that fasting. Eat supper at about 7637 and then don't eat anything until 12:00 the next day. [01:17:39] Speaker B: It's trying to get some of my winter fat off. [01:17:44] Speaker A: You're looking good. I really like fasting. I do the same thing. Usually I do just two meals a day, and it's really helped me, so that's great. [01:17:55] Speaker C: Well, it hasn't been that hard either. Like I said, I do drink half a gallon of coffee, so I wasn't lying about that. [01:18:06] Speaker A: Me too. I like just black iced coffee. [01:18:11] Speaker B: Cool. [01:18:12] Speaker A: All right, next question is from satoyama 81. Have the mosquitoes been kind to the boys? [01:18:22] Speaker C: Not bad at all this year. [01:18:24] Speaker D: Yeah, I expected worse this year. I have experienced much worse in the past. [01:18:30] Speaker B: It's been bad in town, really bad in town. All the wet, all the moisture we've had. But up in the mountains, it hasn't. [01:18:38] Speaker C: Been hasn't been bad at all. Horse flies have been in a few spots, have been our dirty dog, but. [01:18:43] Speaker B: Other than that, not bad. All right. [01:18:47] Speaker A: From Fangorn Bonsai, he would just like a story, a top story from collecting. [01:18:58] Speaker B: On the spot here. Yeah. [01:19:00] Speaker C: Once upon a time, we found a really cool tree. [01:19:07] Speaker D: I was going to throw this in earlier. I don't know if this is a top story, but we collected the first limber pine this year that we've ever had to lift the topper off the. [01:19:15] Speaker B: Truck to fit it in in the truck, that was an experience. They always get bigger. How big was it when you first oh, it's big. [01:19:29] Speaker C: It's only about maybe three and a half foot tall. [01:19:34] Speaker B: Yeah, right about seven 8ft wide long. [01:19:40] Speaker C: Yeah, probably 6ft wide and seven foot long. But I found it last year and I started to dig it this spring. And I was looking at it going, man, I ain't man enough for this thing. And then plus, it was kind of. [01:19:59] Speaker B: On an edge of a cliff. [01:20:01] Speaker C: It was only about 25 foot down, maybe. And so I got talked Dan into. [01:20:07] Speaker B: Coming up the next weekend, and we got up there and I got kind of under it and we worked it. [01:20:15] Speaker C: Away to where I could keep it. [01:20:16] Speaker B: From rolling over and Dan could keep. [01:20:20] Speaker C: All the soil on the roots. And it was definitely a two man tree. [01:20:25] Speaker B: And it's been going great. Yeah. Carried it out between two of us. [01:20:32] Speaker D: Because it wouldn't have fit on a pack very well. [01:20:34] Speaker B: No, it would not. [01:20:40] Speaker A: Work. Yeah, that's fantastic. So next question is from Ryan Houston, host of the Bonsai Time podcast. He asks in the Rockies and the Sierras, do you collect from rock pockets during the whole snow accessible season or only in spring and fall? So basically, do you guys collect when there's snow on the ground or just in spring and fall? [01:21:13] Speaker B: I've only collected in the snow maybe a handful of times. [01:21:20] Speaker C: I always worry about them freezing too. [01:21:23] Speaker B: Much before I can get them home. [01:21:29] Speaker D: A lot of our collecting season, how much we can collect through the whole non winter period depends on how much moisture we have. [01:21:37] Speaker B: This year has been exceptionally wet, so. [01:21:40] Speaker D: We'Ve been able to do more. And then there are certain times where. [01:21:43] Speaker B: Certain species don't do as well. [01:21:45] Speaker D: So if we can get up high early and get like, lodge poles and. [01:21:50] Speaker B: Spruce early before bud break, they do well. [01:21:55] Speaker D: We've had a lot less luck if we dig them kind of mid candle. [01:21:59] Speaker B: Mid early growth period. [01:22:02] Speaker D: So a lot of times we try to not dig, say, lodge poles and. [01:22:05] Speaker B: Spruce either early we dig them or. [01:22:09] Speaker D: We wait until they harden off and. [01:22:11] Speaker B: We dig them kind of mid. Late summer ponderosas are a lot more forgiving. If they're mid candle you can dig them. [01:22:22] Speaker D: Limbers are pretty good too. But again too if it's really exceptional tree. [01:22:30] Speaker B: A lot of times we will opt to wait for a more optimal time just because. [01:22:36] Speaker D: And a lot of those really exceptional. [01:22:38] Speaker B: Trees may have a good root pad but it's marginal compared to other ones you could dig that day if it's. [01:22:47] Speaker D: Not the optimal time. A lot of times we'll focus on trees that just have a really good. [01:22:51] Speaker B: Root pad and we'll come back for. [01:22:53] Speaker D: The other trees that are really good. [01:22:56] Speaker B: Maybe the next spring. [01:22:58] Speaker D: Yeah. Either late summer as they're doing their. [01:23:01] Speaker B: Kind of late summer root bush if. [01:23:03] Speaker D: We have a good winter situation for it at home. [01:23:06] Speaker B: Otherwise it'll be a tree we go grab in spring. Smart. [01:23:13] Speaker A: I like that. [01:23:14] Speaker C: Well, it's all about the tree back to the respect. You don't want to just go and. [01:23:21] Speaker B: Then all of a sudden have it. [01:23:23] Speaker C: Hanging on to life especially. [01:23:28] Speaker B: And we have that. I don't know, it's easier for us since we live here. [01:23:35] Speaker D: To make those kinds of choices than it would be for somebody that travels out here and. [01:23:39] Speaker B: Maybe it's their one trip or they only have a certain amount of time. [01:23:45] Speaker D: Each year to do that or whatever. [01:23:48] Speaker C: If you were under the gun like that and you found a phenomenal tree. [01:23:51] Speaker B: And it had a REFLECTABLE reef head. [01:23:54] Speaker C: Not exactly what you'd like to have. [01:23:56] Speaker B: But that's your only time, well then. [01:23:59] Speaker C: You kind of got to roll the dice. [01:24:02] Speaker D: If you're traveling here to collect trees, there's a good chance you have a milder climate than we do. [01:24:08] Speaker B: Easier winter for the tree maybe. [01:24:12] Speaker A: Nice. All great points. And for me up in the Sierra, I really can't get to the locations that I collect at until about summer or June, early summer, just because the roads are pretty much closed. So I usually start collecting in June and usually there is a lot of snow beforehand. Collecting in June has worked well or in the fall. Works well for me. But I typically do not collect. If there's too much snow on the ground or in the winter I definitely wouldn't collect. [01:24:52] Speaker B: Yeah and junipers, we can pretty much. [01:24:56] Speaker D: Collect all growing season pretty well. [01:25:00] Speaker B: Nice. [01:25:00] Speaker A: Do you guys collect in summer? Junipers? [01:25:03] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, definitely. [01:25:06] Speaker D: Well if the root pads aren't bone. [01:25:07] Speaker C: Dry, that's a big deal. If you've got a bone dry root pad you go to start digging it. [01:25:17] Speaker B: And they just break off. [01:25:19] Speaker C: Whereas if it was wet and hydrated then they've got a little more give. [01:25:25] Speaker B: To them so you do a lot. [01:25:27] Speaker C: More damage to the root pad if it's really dry. [01:25:30] Speaker A: Always nice if you can go out right after a good rain, I feel like to go collecting. [01:25:36] Speaker B: Oh heck yeah. But even we've noticed if we have a really hot July, hot August, and. [01:25:45] Speaker D: Really dry, even if we do get a really good rain, sometimes those root pads are so dry the water just. [01:25:51] Speaker B: Runs right off of them. [01:25:52] Speaker C: They're damn near hydrophobic. [01:25:54] Speaker B: Yeah, that takes a soaking long rain. Or heck, that's where one instance in. [01:26:02] Speaker D: Bones I wear hail can be helpful. [01:26:04] Speaker B: Because it melts a little bit more. [01:26:06] Speaker D: Slowly into the. [01:26:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:26:13] Speaker A: All right, next question from Ryan was what brand of hunting rack style backpack do you recommend? [01:26:23] Speaker D: We just kind of have our go to. I use Kelly cash hauler. [01:26:28] Speaker C: Really stock the mainframe is what they call it. Either that or an X two. [01:26:36] Speaker B: They're just bad to the bone little packs. [01:26:39] Speaker C: I mean, they're double tough. I've carried on that mainframe. [01:26:45] Speaker B: I've carried a 150 pound tree out with it. [01:26:52] Speaker A: Does it have a bar on the bottom? [01:26:55] Speaker C: That one does, yeah. It's got what they call a shelf. [01:26:59] Speaker B: And then it's got these little pouches. [01:27:02] Speaker C: You can buy and zip into it. [01:27:04] Speaker B: For carrying your tape, your bags, your tools, maybe a coat. [01:27:11] Speaker C: And then it's got straps so you can strap it on really good because there's nothing worse than a tree moving on your back. If you don't have a strap down. [01:27:21] Speaker B: Tight, you go to lean forward and it's going to take you over a heavy one. Yeah, and I had one that I. [01:27:33] Speaker C: Had problems with it. A zippered went bad on it, sent it back to them. They fixed it no charge and sent. [01:27:39] Speaker B: It back to me. [01:27:42] Speaker A: Oh, that's great. [01:27:46] Speaker B: I customized my Kelty all new buckles on it so that I could put. [01:27:52] Speaker D: Matching buckles and make extension straps and. [01:27:55] Speaker B: Everything and couldn't find any accession straps. [01:27:59] Speaker D: To buy, so I just swapped everything. [01:28:02] Speaker B: Out that way because the ones that. [01:28:05] Speaker D: Are on it are nice. [01:28:06] Speaker B: But you get a big enough tree. [01:28:08] Speaker D: Or a couple of trees on there and sometimes you can't reach all the. [01:28:10] Speaker B: Way around but strap everything down, totally. [01:28:16] Speaker A: Cool. All right, next question from Parma 77. They love you, Steve. Steve, have you ever thought about just going with a stash? [01:28:30] Speaker C: I did at one point in time. [01:28:33] Speaker B: But I'm kind of lazy, too. [01:28:39] Speaker C: I don't know. [01:28:40] Speaker A: All right, next question. [01:28:42] Speaker C: This has worked. [01:28:44] Speaker D: It looks great. [01:28:46] Speaker A: He's got a signature look. I like it. I like it a lot. Let's see. From Boneside Grounds, how can someone start collecting trees? What tips would you give for a newbie what do we need to prepare? [01:29:06] Speaker B: Well, just make sure you have a pry bar, set of skateurs. [01:29:16] Speaker C: What the hell are they called? Pruners? Maybe a little saw. We use tape and plastic bags. [01:29:24] Speaker B: And plastic bags and black tape. I know other people that use shrink wrap. [01:29:31] Speaker C: The shrink wrap doesn't work for me. [01:29:36] Speaker B: It just doesn't work for me. But main thing is, if you're just. [01:29:41] Speaker C: Starting out on collecting, collect some simple trees to start with. If you've got just a fabulous tree. [01:29:48] Speaker B: Out there that you found and you're not worried about say, a road being. [01:29:54] Speaker C: Built over it or getting cut down or burned over in a fire or something like that. And you know it's going to stay there. Then just perfect your collecting skills on some simple trees and then in a. [01:30:07] Speaker B: Few years go back and get the barn burner. All about roots. Yeah, this is like any other process. [01:30:13] Speaker D: We do in bowse. Like repotting. There's a process to it to extracting. [01:30:18] Speaker B: The tree without too much damage to the root mass and start at the edge and work in figure out where. [01:30:27] Speaker D: The anchor roots are and whether there's a solid pad of fine roots. [01:30:31] Speaker B: You want the fine roots, not a bunch of thick roots. Treat it like any other process. [01:30:40] Speaker A: Solid, solid. Maybe start with some urban Yamadori. Might be a good kind of starting point before you get into Yamadori. [01:30:49] Speaker D: Yeah, totally different. I mean, I guess if they're asking about collecting and rock, that's one thing. [01:30:54] Speaker B: And then digging tree out of the ground is entirely, totally different. If I was digging out of the. [01:31:02] Speaker D: Ground and I had the option, I would pretty much always, unless you get comfortable, dig a bigger hole than you. [01:31:07] Speaker B: Think you need, get more roots than you think you need when you're starting out. [01:31:13] Speaker A: Absolutely. [01:31:15] Speaker B: The rock pockets is high 90s. My success rate on pines. [01:31:27] Speaker C: Dug out. [01:31:27] Speaker B: Of the ground is pretty slim. [01:31:31] Speaker C: Just never worked for me. The roots are too far interspersed and they're not condensed. There's been a few junipers I've collected. [01:31:42] Speaker B: That surprised me that came back with. [01:31:46] Speaker C: Not a lot of roots, but they survived. [01:31:49] Speaker B: But generally out of the dirt doesn't work in my experience anyway. The scissors trees, I think personally it's mostly about timing. [01:32:01] Speaker D: Either get them in spring, right as they're about to open up, or in fall right as they drop their leaves. [01:32:07] Speaker B: This is the optimal for deciduous. I know there's guys that do tricks. [01:32:14] Speaker D: With bald snipers and stuff like that where you can dig them, defoliate them. [01:32:18] Speaker B: And they just come right. I don't know that I'd try that. [01:32:23] Speaker D: With an aspen, but who knows, maybe. [01:32:26] Speaker B: A young one just for the heck. [01:32:28] Speaker D: Of it to try it. [01:32:29] Speaker B: But I would just go for the. [01:32:31] Speaker D: Times that I know are optimal. [01:32:36] Speaker A: Sounds like a good plan. All right, next question from Roy Minerai. I think I know the answer to this. Maybe for Dan, but I'm not sure. What's the scariest thing that's happened to you while collecting? [01:32:58] Speaker C: Well, the lightning storm we were talking about earlier was right in there. [01:33:04] Speaker B: Other than that, slips and falls. [01:33:09] Speaker C: You start heading down a slope that's going to take you off of the 20 foot cliff because you're on the rock and it was slick and you scratch and you stop yourself. It's like, well, it's time to get. [01:33:21] Speaker B: Off the rock today. [01:33:24] Speaker C: Nothing that comes to mind other than, like I said, that lightning storm that. [01:33:29] Speaker B: Dan and I walked through was probably one of the worst. [01:33:33] Speaker D: I said, you're thinking of the mountain lion for me, but honestly, I think. [01:33:36] Speaker B: The lightning, that's my scariest, dude. [01:33:39] Speaker D: That and a couple other times with the same thing. [01:33:42] Speaker B: But mountain lion, there was definitely an adrenaline rush and all of that, but. [01:33:51] Speaker D: In the moment, it was a lot. [01:33:53] Speaker B: Less scary than it was, I don't. [01:33:55] Speaker D: Know, engaging and interesting. [01:33:58] Speaker B: There was the element of this could go south quickly, but I also felt. [01:34:05] Speaker D: Somewhat in control of the situation. [01:34:08] Speaker B: So I wouldn't rank it as quite. [01:34:11] Speaker D: As scary as a bunch of lightning bolts striking right around you that you have absolutely no control over. [01:34:21] Speaker A: Totally. And you were taking pictures while the mountain lion was stalking you, so you didn't seem all that scared to me. [01:34:29] Speaker D: I blame the millennial in me for that. [01:34:36] Speaker C: He'd have been leaking from multiple orifices. [01:34:39] Speaker B: If he'd have been around me. In other words, I'd have shot the. [01:34:43] Speaker C: Hell out of. [01:34:49] Speaker A: Would be I would be quite worried. All right, next question from Scott is, can you talk about your aftercare process? [01:35:01] Speaker B: Go for. [01:35:05] Speaker C: You know, we use the plastic bags and the tape. When I get home, I poke a bunch of holes in the bottom of. [01:35:11] Speaker B: The bag, and I've got a tub. [01:35:15] Speaker C: That I've got full of water, and I've got some of the kelp fertilizer in it. [01:35:23] Speaker B: I don't know if that helps or. [01:35:25] Speaker C: Not, but it makes me feel like it might. So I use it, and I let them soak in there for if it's really dry out, I'll let them soak overnight. And if the moisture content and the pad is fairly decent, then I'll let. [01:35:41] Speaker B: Them soak until bedtime, say, 11:00. [01:35:46] Speaker C: And then I'll take them out. And then I just put them in. [01:35:48] Speaker B: The shade until I can get the boxes built. [01:35:54] Speaker C: Then once I get them put in boxes, then they go in shade. [01:35:58] Speaker B: But it's early morning sun till, I. [01:36:03] Speaker C: Don'T know, for maybe 2 hours, and then they're in the shade for the rest of the day. [01:36:06] Speaker B: Do that for about a month and a half, and then gradually move them. [01:36:12] Speaker C: Out into a little bit more light. [01:36:16] Speaker B: Biggest key with the boxing them is not too big of a box for a pot. [01:36:20] Speaker D: Make sure there's not a lot of. [01:36:21] Speaker B: Excess space in there, and then really make sure they're locked and tight and they're not rocking around or moving, because that'll either break new roots that form. [01:36:33] Speaker D: Or just discourage the tree from putting any new roots out into the soil. [01:36:39] Speaker C: When we first started doing or when I first started doing it, I was always trying to make it look pretty to where you'd put bamboo in to try to lock the tree in like. [01:36:47] Speaker B: It was in a bonsai pot. But then I've gotten more. [01:36:55] Speaker C: Utilitarian, shall we say? If there's a spot you can put a support stick in it. [01:37:01] Speaker B: It gets a support from the side. [01:37:04] Speaker C: Of the box and then wire it to a piece of good heavy deadwood. [01:37:07] Speaker B: Or something just to support the trees so it doesn't rock because we'll get wind. [01:37:12] Speaker C: Dan's place gets worse wind than I get. But our winds, we can get 50 miles an hour winds on regular occasions. [01:37:20] Speaker B: So it'll rock the boxes pretty good. [01:37:23] Speaker D: One reason we use supports might be because we tend to dig a lot bigger trees here lately than we used to. [01:37:28] Speaker B: Well, this is true, too. [01:37:31] Speaker C: They don't look that big. When you start digging and get done, it's like, holy crap. [01:37:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you think that putting them on the ground helps with aftercare? [01:37:45] Speaker B: I think so. I mean, we'd listen to, I think. [01:37:50] Speaker C: Stuff that Randy Knight had said about them getting moisture from the ground and. [01:37:56] Speaker B: Helping keep them hydrated and not putting. [01:38:01] Speaker C: Two by twos on the bottom for air circulation. [01:38:06] Speaker B: He had said that it seemed to. [01:38:09] Speaker C: Be better for him if they were sitting right on the ground. They get more humidity into the boxes, into the bottom of the box. [01:38:17] Speaker B: I guess they wouldn't dry out as bad. [01:38:19] Speaker C: So we started just letting them sit on the ground. [01:38:24] Speaker B: And now after the first spring that. [01:38:28] Speaker C: They'Ve woken up, then I'll put them. [01:38:30] Speaker B: Up on the benches, even if they're still in the boxes, but the first. [01:38:38] Speaker C: Year, they sit on the ground. And then when we water, I always. [01:38:42] Speaker B: Water around the gravel, too, to get a lot of humidity. Nice. [01:38:49] Speaker A: Very nice. All right, next question. And this one is from the Bonsai Nut forum. So Hemi is asking if you can talk a little bit about what you think makes these trunks look so cool and interesting. So, for example, he's saying, what are the natural influences on these trees that contort and twist and make these trees good species, good for Bontai? [01:39:26] Speaker C: Mother Nature is just brutal. Yeah, that's pretty much aim. It that in a nutshell. [01:39:32] Speaker D: Lightning, hail, the wind out here, 70 miles an hour. [01:39:37] Speaker B: Wind probably getting sandblasted sometimes. And snow. [01:39:43] Speaker D: Snow load. [01:39:44] Speaker C: You'll have some of them where they. [01:39:45] Speaker B: Don'T have a 15 foot drift over them. [01:39:51] Speaker C: But I'd say in my mind, wind. [01:39:53] Speaker B: Is probably the most sculpting factor and. [01:39:59] Speaker C: Desiccation just because a lot of times our humidity is 10% route cycles. [01:40:05] Speaker B: Insect bores, you got I don't know. [01:40:08] Speaker D: Yeah, you can pretty much name it. [01:40:11] Speaker C: Woodpeckers elk, porcupines. [01:40:16] Speaker D: Bull elk, or a. [01:40:17] Speaker B: Buck using one to rub its antlers on. [01:40:23] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:40:23] Speaker B: Or stepping sometimes a tree on side of a trail getting knocked as they're going by cattle. A lot of the places we collect. [01:40:35] Speaker D: I think that's a misconception. A lot of people think that we're. [01:40:38] Speaker B: Up, like, in some pristine and we. [01:40:41] Speaker D: Take pretty pictures because it's pretty area, but we're not in the wilderness areas or the national parks. [01:40:47] Speaker B: All those places are closed off to. [01:40:49] Speaker D: This type of thing. [01:40:51] Speaker B: We're in ranch land. [01:40:53] Speaker D: They're being grazed by cattle. [01:40:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:41:00] Speaker A: One kind of interesting thing that I think about is there are ponderosa pines in the Sierra, but I haven't seen many that are really twisty. Every once in a while, you'll find one that's pretty twisty, but I think that they are more rare than they are, the Rocky Mountain variety. And I wonder if it's mostly a genetic issue or if it's the wind, because in the Sierra, I think it's not as windy as it is out where you guys are. And I remember driving out to see you, and there's like all these signs that talk about the wind, and my car was getting blown around a little bit. I do think that the wind has something to do, and I wonder how much of a factor it is with the twist, with ponderosa, which is probably one of my favorite characteristics in trees. Twist. [01:41:54] Speaker B: I love twist. [01:41:56] Speaker D: Some of that's just their habit. [01:41:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:41:58] Speaker B: Too. And I don't know as far as a Rocky Mountain version versus the Sierra version, but we always joke, so this happens regularly. Where you'll find a rock that's got. [01:42:13] Speaker D: A lodge pole, a limber and a ponderosa, all within very close proximity, and the lodge pole is straight up in the air. Doesn't even look like it's ever experienced wind or anything in its life. [01:42:27] Speaker B: And the limber is knocked over, deadwood, all up. One side kind of looks wind blown. [01:42:35] Speaker D: And then you got this ponderosa just crawling across the rock, spinning and spiraling. [01:42:40] Speaker B: And prostrate, they all respond to those same elements differently. [01:42:52] Speaker D: So finding a good lodge pole with. [01:42:54] Speaker B: A lot of characters, really rare. [01:42:59] Speaker D: Spruce. [01:43:00] Speaker B: Too, but on the first, they're just. [01:43:04] Speaker C: Prone to growing straight. They'll be clear up on the top of a rock pile, and it should. [01:43:09] Speaker B: Just be getting blasted. [01:43:11] Speaker C: And the spruce and the fur just growing just straight as a rocket. And then you'll go around to the other side or maybe get down into some underbrush. And here's a lodge pole or a fur that's just all contorted. They're like a unicorn. You find them every once in a while. [01:43:33] Speaker B: But the ponderosa, they're more so finding the straight ponderosa is probably harder. [01:43:41] Speaker C: Yeah. It's got to be genetic, I would. [01:43:45] Speaker B: Think, for years in the Sierras, I would imagine, just the way they are. [01:43:55] Speaker C: Here, they're more prone. The ponderosas are definitely more prone to. [01:43:59] Speaker B: Have twisted branches and then the spruce. [01:44:05] Speaker C: Or the furs are logical. [01:44:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:44:10] Speaker B: Of all the trees, the ponderosa, when. [01:44:14] Speaker D: You see a deadwood or you can see the deadwood of even a perfectly. [01:44:17] Speaker B: Straight, big old ponderosa out in the middle of the forest, if you can see the grains in the deadwood, they. [01:44:26] Speaker D: Even spiral, just going straight up in the air. The grains spiral. [01:44:30] Speaker B: So I would imagine that that plays. [01:44:34] Speaker D: Into the fact that when they get knocked over, bent over, blown over, that they kind of have a tendency to. [01:44:40] Speaker B: Twist with that Sunday, it was desiccated. [01:44:47] Speaker C: It had been just wind blown. I don't know how it might have. [01:44:51] Speaker B: Been laying there dead for 30 years. [01:44:54] Speaker C: But on the outside shell was a spiraled. So the spiral that you would wire. [01:45:03] Speaker B: A branch with kind of that spiral. [01:45:07] Speaker C: On the outer wood and on the inner wood that was about an inch thick. [01:45:13] Speaker B: And on the inner core it was. [01:45:16] Speaker C: A little bit of a spiral, but not as much. It was pretty intriguing. It was almost like a glue lamb beam or something. Like there's two different structures, like the. [01:45:28] Speaker B: Old. [01:45:33] Speaker C: Not holding wood, but your inner. [01:45:35] Speaker B: Wood, and then the outer wood had. [01:45:38] Speaker C: More spiral to it was pretty intriguing. [01:45:40] Speaker B: I did a little video of it. [01:45:44] Speaker C: I play it now, but we can't this is a podcast. [01:45:51] Speaker A: Very cool. You should message that to me. Yeah. Very interesting. One thing that I have been enjoying, trying to challenge myself with lately is I'll look at a Yamadori and I especially like if it's like in a show, for example, and I'll try and think about how that tree was situated in the mountains and see if I can tell how it was situated when it was in the mountains. So, you know, for example, generally the deadwood is facing the elements and the lifeline or the area with bark is against the rock. So I try and take things like that. Or maybe sometimes if there is a rock, the tree is like, growing over the rock and it alters the shape of the tree. I like to try and think of and see if I can figure out what it was like in the natural environment. And it's hard to do, but with some trees you can tell and it's just fun to pick those things out. I think you two are uniquely qualified to be good at that. [01:47:05] Speaker D: Maybe sometimes they surprise know, Brian mentioned this a few times, and I think he's right. [01:47:11] Speaker B: Even just the sun at the sun exposure, I think can kill off some of those upper portions of the tree that really just get beat with the. [01:47:23] Speaker D: UV rays or intense super intense sunlight. [01:47:26] Speaker B: At this elevation can even just cook. [01:47:30] Speaker C: That side of the tree. [01:47:31] Speaker B: And so that can cause deadwood there, too. [01:47:37] Speaker A: That makes sense. [01:47:43] Speaker B: Nice. [01:47:44] Speaker A: All right, next question. We may have covered this canorin from St. Louis is asking as far as post collection aftercare, do you have any tricks beyond boxing and pumice and applying bottom heat that you use to help maximize survival of collected trees? So any other tips and tricks? [01:48:09] Speaker D: We haven't had the best luck with. [01:48:11] Speaker B: Bottom heat, but that might just be our environment. I don't know. [01:48:16] Speaker D: We might have to experiment with it a little bit more. [01:48:19] Speaker B: But yeah, we've lost more trees with bottom heat than we have without just. [01:48:27] Speaker C: One winter in it. [01:48:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And one tip, I would say is. [01:48:33] Speaker C: If you're going to try something new, don't put the best tree you ever. [01:48:36] Speaker B: Found as your experiment. [01:48:43] Speaker A: Yeah, great tip. Great tip right there. [01:48:50] Speaker B: Awesome. [01:48:51] Speaker A: Okay, sorry. Question. Do you guys start fertilizing right away? Do you wait, like, a certain amount of time, or do you just start fertilizing right after you box it up? [01:49:07] Speaker C: I don't fertilize as much as I. [01:49:11] Speaker B: Should, but as far as a newly. [01:49:15] Speaker C: Collected, I've never fertilized those until if I do it's fuller. Not putting it into the soil mass. [01:49:26] Speaker B: Not a drench. [01:49:28] Speaker D: Full air and a little bit that might drop into the soil, but not a heavy fertilizer into. [01:49:34] Speaker B: The soil, at least until they seem to be somewhat established, until you see things pushing. I don't know, that's just my take on it. [01:49:45] Speaker C: That doesn't mean I know what I'm talking about. [01:49:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know what I'm talking about either. I'm not sure all these things, it's not like anyone's doing scientific experimentation with a very large sample size, so it's hard to really know. I actually just start fertilizing pretty much right away. Usually I'll wait a couple of weeks, I'll box the tree up, and then a couple of weeks later, I'll start fertilizing, and I'll both putting usually I use osmocoat, so I put osmocoat directly on the soil, but then I'll also foliar feed as well. But I don't know, like a slow release. Like a slow release on the soil. [01:50:31] Speaker B: Yeah, and I have done that. And trees, I'm particularly worried about borders. [01:50:39] Speaker D: Or stuff like that. I might even do. I've done like, a three in one. [01:50:47] Speaker B: Mostly what I want is the insecticide and the fertilizer because we don't have. [01:50:54] Speaker D: Too many fungus issues with as dry as we are. [01:50:57] Speaker B: But at least it makes me feel. [01:51:01] Speaker D: Better that maybe I'm boosting the tree against the bores. Whether it actually works that way or. [01:51:05] Speaker B: Not, I can't guarantee sure. [01:51:10] Speaker A: For sure. Gotcha. All right, next question is from Colorado in Colorado, and these are from the Bonsai Nut Forum. He's asking what are the physical attributes of the locations you find your best trees in. So does north south facing make any difference? Are the trees coming from granite slabs or are there other environments to find good collectible trees? [01:51:42] Speaker C: There's other environments you can find them. The collectibility might not be as good. Granite is hard to beat. Your rock pockets and your cracks are not enormous. Usually, like, there's some sandstone I collect junipers in, and it's really challenging sometimes. [01:52:08] Speaker B: Just because of the cracks are way different than in the granite. But it's still achievable. [01:52:16] Speaker C: But the digability is not as good, shall we say. [01:52:22] Speaker B: And. [01:52:25] Speaker C: Southeast, I would say, is your better faces, your exposures, yes. But north side, you're usually in a. [01:52:37] Speaker B: Lot denser woods cover with trees and such. And on the west side here, if. [01:52:50] Speaker C: There'S anything in the rock, it's usually attached to the soul of the earth, and there's no. Way you're ever going to get it. [01:52:58] Speaker B: Out might be the best trees you see, but the reason they're there is. [01:53:03] Speaker C: Because they're getting blasted by everything god. [01:53:07] Speaker B: And nature puts towards it. [01:53:10] Speaker C: Because all our weather comes out of. [01:53:11] Speaker B: The north, northeast or. [01:53:16] Speaker D: Mean, obviously we're talking about the type of species that we. [01:53:23] Speaker B: Mean. [01:53:23] Speaker D: Utah, junipers. Maybe they're coming out of granite. I don't know. [01:53:27] Speaker B: But most of what I've seen don't. [01:53:29] Speaker D: Come so much out of granite. And then I've got friends that collect pinions, and I think they're mostly digging. [01:53:36] Speaker B: Those out of pretty rocky soils. And then. [01:53:42] Speaker D: I don't know. There's special situations like the fin in Colorado where they dig a lot of those Colorado spruce that's not off of. [01:53:52] Speaker B: So there are plenty of other situations. [01:53:57] Speaker D: You can find great trees. [01:53:58] Speaker B: It's just going to depend on the species and the location and just kind of got to learn how to collect those trees. [01:54:08] Speaker D: I think it's usually doable. [01:54:09] Speaker B: It's just going to take learning. [01:54:13] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I think that the location and the type of environment that these trees come from is so important. And I love collecting trees off granite. It's the only way I want to collect trees just because of the things that we mentioned less probably survivability, just like Steve, you were talking about with the ponderosis and the dirt, I think. I'm really curious if people find other cool areas where trees get naturally dwarfed, like the fin or granite. If there's other ways that naturally dwarf these trees, I would love to know, but I don't really know what those other ways are. I know animals will eat them other than that, getting beat up by things, but what else is there? There's probably other ways. I'm not really sure exactly those other ways. I want to know them. [01:55:10] Speaker D: Yeah, just look for harsh environments where trees grow. I mean, you had the podcast with. [01:55:15] Speaker B: What was it, matt in Michigan? [01:55:18] Speaker A: Yeah, he was talking about bogs. [01:55:21] Speaker D: Yeah, cedars. And know that's a totally different but it's a harsh environment. So it's really just an heck buttonwoods on the coast. [01:55:32] Speaker B: It's just anywhere tough trees grow in a really tough environment and respond to it, you're going to find interesting trees. [01:55:45] Speaker C: And then if there's any kind of a hard substrate for them to be. [01:55:50] Speaker B: Growing in, there's got to be a chance for pocket trees also, I would think it's true. [01:55:58] Speaker C: Like I said, with this sandstone that. [01:56:00] Speaker B: I dig in the junipers. [01:56:05] Speaker C: There are pockets, but they're not as prevalent as in the granite. And so it was a big learning experience digging trees in there that goes with anything. [01:56:17] Speaker B: You're going to have to give it. [01:56:20] Speaker C: A shot and use what knowledge you have to gain more, basically. [01:56:28] Speaker A: Most definitely. All right. I think just one more, and this one is from Colorado as well. So he's wondering specifically about limber pines, and he is wondering how you analyze if a tree is collectible or not. And he's wondering if wiggling, if the tree wiggles, does that play any factor? [01:56:56] Speaker C: Sometimes when we first started, it was if you can get it to wiggle, it'll come. Well, not necessarily. A lot of times, if it'll wiggle, that means it's got one heavy root that's kind of holding it where it's at. And if you work it back, then the heavy roots going into a crack. [01:57:13] Speaker B: Or what have you, but you don't. [01:57:16] Speaker C: A lot of times have a really. [01:57:17] Speaker B: Good fine root pad right under it. [01:57:19] Speaker D: You see a root pad wiggle with the trunk. Daniel that's a really good sign. [01:57:25] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:57:26] Speaker D: But otherwise we would prefer to find. [01:57:28] Speaker B: A tree that doesn't wiggle over one that does. Because if you can just rock a. [01:57:33] Speaker D: Tree around, that's where he's saying it's probably just got a long root running. [01:57:36] Speaker B: Through that pad that doesn't attach to. [01:57:38] Speaker D: Any fine roots right into the tree. [01:57:40] Speaker B: We'd rather find a solid tree that doesn't budge, but it's got a nice. [01:57:46] Speaker D: Mass of soil around it, then we. [01:57:48] Speaker B: Know, okay, well, if we can find. [01:57:50] Speaker D: Where it's anchored, there's a good chance that it's connected to all this soil. [01:57:55] Speaker B: Rather than. [01:57:59] Speaker D: Both of us. [01:58:00] Speaker B: When we started, the folks would tell. [01:58:02] Speaker D: Us, oh, if it moves, it'll come. [01:58:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:58:08] Speaker C: Well, a lot of times you'll find. [01:58:10] Speaker B: A crack and if it's a real, say, a six inch wide crank and. [01:58:18] Speaker C: It'S really deep, that can lead to problems, too. Because then a lot of times, you'll. [01:58:22] Speaker B: Have a real deep tap root that. [01:58:27] Speaker C: Goes down to the center of the. [01:58:29] Speaker B: Earth and you think it's going to come, but it ain't. [01:58:33] Speaker D: We've found where the truck keeps going another two 3ft down. [01:58:37] Speaker C: Yeah. With the junipers especially, or moving a. [01:58:41] Speaker B: Rock, say, that's setting on a juniper. [01:58:45] Speaker C: And you're thinking, well, that's going to be all pad right underneath that. Well, you move the rock and all it is, is a big old humongous. [01:58:52] Speaker B: Trunk going for another foot and a half, and then it disappears into a. [01:58:59] Speaker C: Crack and you have no fine root pad roots at all. It's all a case by case thing. [01:59:06] Speaker B: And like I'd said before, if a. [01:59:08] Speaker C: Guy'S just first starting out, start out. [01:59:10] Speaker B: With some simple trees and build your. [01:59:13] Speaker C: Skill set up to where when you can come back to the ones that. [01:59:16] Speaker B: Are just barn burners. And then your success rate is going to be better if you're going to kind of know how to deal with them. I don't know whether there's too many. [01:59:28] Speaker D: Nuances with lumber pine versus any other. [01:59:30] Speaker B: Pine in a rock pocket. [01:59:33] Speaker A: Yeah. He was also asking what type of micro environment are they found in? Limber pine, specifically. [01:59:44] Speaker C: Limbers are like a border species. There's a different terminology for it, but they're right on the edge of your juniper country all the way up into the high stuff. They're throughout the whole gamut of the. [02:00:04] Speaker B: Timber, you tend to find limbers in. [02:00:09] Speaker D: A lot harsher places where a lot. [02:00:11] Speaker B: Of the other species don't do as well. [02:00:13] Speaker D: They don't have to compete with the other trees. [02:00:16] Speaker B: They'll be up on really exposed areas. [02:00:19] Speaker D: Where there's not much else growing besides limber pines and other maybe some junipers. [02:00:25] Speaker B: That have been hammered flat, basically. But a lot of that's because of the nuts, the birds with the white, that's where they deposit the seeds or whatever. Nice, man. [02:00:45] Speaker A: Dan. The Shoheen limber. That you. I think it's shohin. It's very small. Fits in your hand. The one that you just posted, the. [02:00:54] Speaker B: One that I borrowed him. The what? [02:00:59] Speaker D: He keeps trying to get it from me. [02:01:02] Speaker A: I would be, too. That tree is killer, man. I love that. [02:01:07] Speaker C: I covet his. [02:01:08] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, man. [02:01:10] Speaker D: We've been looking ever since to try to find. [02:01:14] Speaker B: But well, that's a unicorn nerve. [02:01:17] Speaker C: My golly. [02:01:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:01:18] Speaker A: Got to make a whole Shoheen US. Native display, right? All US. Native trees. That would be so cool. And that one definitely belongs in there. [02:01:28] Speaker B: That'd be fun. Probably going to have to team up. [02:01:32] Speaker D: With some people to make it happen. At this point, I'm working on my Shoheen collection. [02:01:39] Speaker A: Love it. [02:01:39] Speaker C: I've got some good comments. Some junipers and bruce spruce. Little shoheens. I love those shoheens. [02:01:50] Speaker B: They're an anomaly in their own right. shohin tree with character is a job. [02:02:03] Speaker D: That is the one thing that everyone. [02:02:04] Speaker B: Wants, but probably the ones we're least likely to get rid of since we. [02:02:12] Speaker D: Find so few really good small ones. [02:02:14] Speaker A: Makes a lot of sense. [02:02:16] Speaker B: Awesome. [02:02:17] Speaker A: Well, hey, thank you guys so much for your time. I really appreciate it. I have absolutely enjoyed this. I apologize for the lag. I think that made it kind of funky. But I still think that you guys gave some absolutely incredible information. I love following your stuff. You guys are really pushing bonsai forward. I think you're doing really good work collecting and supplying just the highest quality trees for American bontai. So I greatly, greatly appreciate it, and thank you guys so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Was there anything else you guys wanted to plug or talk about or anything before we head out? [02:03:01] Speaker B: Thank you. [02:03:04] Speaker C: It's been enjoyable doing the podcast. Been fun. I've enjoyed watching your garden progress, too. [02:03:12] Speaker B: It's been kind of cool to see it materializing. [02:03:17] Speaker A: Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. [02:03:20] Speaker D: Yeah. Hi to all the balls. I logged back in for the first time in a very long time to. [02:03:28] Speaker B: Balance nut today to read those questions that you had. I spent a lot of years there, but just with kids and life, and that was one of the things I. [02:03:37] Speaker D: Didn'T have as much time for. [02:03:40] Speaker A: Totally get that. Awesome. But thank you guys so much for your time. [02:03:44] Speaker B: I really appreciate it. [02:03:47] Speaker C: You're back, man. [02:03:48] Speaker B: Awesome. [02:03:49] Speaker A: Thank you.