Episode #18 Catching up w/ Jonas Dupuich about the Pacific Bonsai Expo

[00:00:00] Speaker A: To baby trees. Bonsai bandai. [00:00:07] Speaker B: Bansai time is the one thing you. [00:00:10] Speaker A: Can'T really make in Bonsai, right? Banzai, the black pondo podcast. [00:00:19] Speaker B: So Bonsai's about is people having a good time and enjoying themselves. [00:00:23] Speaker A: If it's not fun, it's not bonsai, bonsai. Or Bonsai bonsai, bonsai. Bonsai. Bonsai. That's my favorite subject. But, yeah, it's really great to see you and hear you. I have. It's been a while. I was actually looking at our last text message, and it was back in 2023, so it's been a minute. [00:00:45] Speaker B: But the time has been zipping along since then, I imagine, in your life as well. [00:00:50] Speaker A: Yes, yes, definitely. But I'm sure you seem like a guy that not has a hard time saying no, but you take on a lot of projects. [00:01:05] Speaker B: I say no to a lot, and I need to say no to a lot more. It's true. Absolutely. That's a fair remark. [00:01:13] Speaker A: Are you a big weezer fan? [00:01:17] Speaker B: That song is not lost on me. An interesting historical note, the last concert I saw at the Kaiser auditorium, where we're about to go have an expo in two months, was Weezer. [00:01:29] Speaker A: That's so cool. [00:01:30] Speaker B: So when the song came on, my name is Jonas. I stood up and I'm like, no, really? [00:01:37] Speaker A: Oh, man, I love Weezer. And I love that song. [00:01:40] Speaker B: These are great. [00:01:40] Speaker A: Yeah, they are great. The blue album was, like, my high school anthem. I listened to it, like, nonstop. I know every word. Still. It's total, like, sing along album for me. And I was just totally approved of that. Fan of them. Awesome. But I did. [00:01:57] Speaker B: I remember a family friend, a little kid, introduced me to the album. I hadn't heard of it at the time. Like, yeah, there's a song about Jonas. I'm like, I have no idea what you're talking about. And so I went out and then I heard it on the radio. I'm like, I swear I just heard my name. [00:02:08] Speaker A: And sure enough, I feel like that should be your intro song. Like, at the PBE, when they bring you up, they should throw that little. [00:02:18] Speaker B: Five second, that little guitar line. [00:02:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:02:22] Speaker B: It's. [00:02:22] Speaker A: It's so great. I have it right here. This one. My name is Thomas. [00:02:28] Speaker B: I'm carrying. [00:02:33] Speaker A: Just that. Just throw that and then bring you up. That would be awesome. [00:02:37] Speaker B: That would be my walk in music every time. I like it. [00:02:41] Speaker A: It's very appropriate. Nice. That's so cool. Were they good live? [00:02:47] Speaker B: They were. It was a very traditional, just kind of rock show where they just kind of stood on stage. There was nothing fancy in the set, was in lights behind them, and it flashed, and everyone was just kind of screaming and cheering the whole time. But, yeah, just totally straightforward show. It was. It. Blue had come out, and maybe I forget if it was right after blue or if it was maybe after their third album, but, uh, yeah, it was a good show. It was fun. And literally they're gonna be. Their stage was set up right where the vendors are gonna be for the expo. That is rad. And I was looking right, and I was sitting just right on the other side of where the exhibit was. So right underneath the windows is where I was sitting, which is just, in hindsight, pretty hilarious. But it was a great venue. And so I used to go for a bunch of different events, as much on the arena side as on the theater side. I used to go see whether it was classical performances or dance performances on the other side. [00:03:41] Speaker A: Oh, that's so cool. What a cool venue you guys got this year. I'm so excited. You have no idea. [00:03:48] Speaker B: Good. [00:03:49] Speaker A: Good. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah. How's your life been recently? I mean, like, does it get really busy coming up to the expo? Does it get more busy than usual? Or are you guys good at spreading the workload out throughout the year? Is it more busy during this time? [00:04:09] Speaker B: There is no time at which it isn't more busy. Expo's been filling up our time for months and months at this point. I mean, I remember right around New Year's, we were pretty much spending massive hours on the expo. [00:04:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:23] Speaker B: And that's just not going to change. There's. In other words, there's less and less time for work as time goes by. But the expo is just one of several things that takes up all of my time. [00:04:34] Speaker A: Yes. You're a very, very busy man, in fact. Yeah. It's. It's really. It's really an honor to have you on, uh, by the way, and I am a huge fan of everything that you're doing, and I feel like, uh, you have. I think you've really earned a spot in the bonsai hall of Fame with all the things that you do with the book, the blog, the expo, and everything else that you do. It's just incredible how much you've contributed to the american bonsai scene. And just, like, our growth overall, I think you play a big part there. So thank you so much for that. [00:05:14] Speaker B: Well, thanks. I appreciate it. I'm just trying to live up to what my teacher did, which was an absurd lot to kind of move things along within the community. [00:05:25] Speaker A: Absolutely. So, yeah, I actually. It's really cool, Jonas, because, you know, I was in bib with you. I joined much later than you did. But I remember at certain parking lot, or, excuse me, at certain bib shows, there was a lot of parking lot conversations. I don't know if you remember that, but like, I remember seeing you and Eric in the parking lot and you and Dylan and sometimes we would talk about it or Peter T. And I remember hearing you and Eric talking about a potential expo and it was just like an idea back then, I feel like. And then seeing it come all the way now to where you're in the second show, it's just so cool to see it come from just an idea all the way to like this big, grand, incredible thing that it's turned out to be. So props for that. So cool to see. And it's been. It's been so, so fun to watch. [00:06:28] Speaker B: I hope it's been fun to join in too. [00:06:31] Speaker A: Definitely. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, yeah, I mean, we can, we can totally talk about whatever. Mostly I had some questions for you about the expo and just about life. Had a couple other little topics, but we can, you know, go as long or as short as you'd like. Please feel free to cut me off at any time. It's great to see you, man. [00:06:57] Speaker B: That sounds great. Well, I'm happy to catch up. So just throw what you got at me and we'll go from there. [00:07:02] Speaker A: Awesome. Sounds good. [00:07:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:05] Speaker A: So I guess, like, can you talk to me a little bit more about what life has looked like, you know, heading up to the expo? What is that process? Like, how often are you talking with Eric and Andrew and how are you guys meeting and talking and dividing work and what's that looking like these days? [00:07:25] Speaker B: You know, at a very high level, there are a lot of phone calls and texts and on top of that, some in person meeting. So yesterday, for example, Eric and I were at the venue and I checked in with Andrew before and after the visit to the venue. And so we actually, it's funny. We spent, was it yesterday or the day before? We spent maybe 2 hours on the phone and the majority of that was actually planning out the third expo. [00:07:53] Speaker A: Interesting. Okay. You're moving. [00:07:55] Speaker B: So there's a. Yeah, we're. There are always multiple threads or strands going on at any given time. And we're. We're always. It takes a long time to make changes to something or to put a lot of these visions into practice. And so we've actually been all three of us been thinking a lot about what the next event is going to look like and kind of where we'll go from here, and we don't even have the feedback yet on the second to know how that's going to inform the discussion for sure. [00:08:24] Speaker A: Well, that is definitely music to my ears. And I feel like, for me, I think the biggest thing that I hope happens is that this just keeps going and you guys keep putting these expos on. And so I guess, like, one thing that I would love to kind of suss out from you is how. How does the community make that happen and support you guys to ensure that future expos can go down? Because I think it's just so important for the bonsai community and our growth and expansion to continue having these. And I think that's extremely important that we support you in the proper ways. So I'm hoping I can keep asking you questions to dig in there a bit more. [00:09:11] Speaker B: Oh, as much as you want, because I'll keep answering. The very short answer is participation in all different forms. And so if we. We would love to provide a service to the community, and if the community appreciates that service, then we'll happily keep doing it on our end. Specifically, that means we have people who get tickets to the event and that they volunteer to help us put on the event. And those are really the two most important things that people can do. [00:09:44] Speaker A: Nice. Okay. [00:09:46] Speaker B: I was going to say there's one brief difference between us and your average bonsai club or organizational event, which is that there's a membership. And so most of us start out in a bonsai club, and we're used to relying on the membership to put on the show, to do the planning, to do all the work at the event, but we don't have members. And so it's funny, as an exhibitor for the expo, we need to kind of create the understanding that we actually expect you to volunteer. We expect you to do security all week, and we expect you to help out and sign up for stuff. It's that kind of participation among the exhibitors, among the attendees, that is going to make it possible for us to keep doing these. [00:10:27] Speaker A: Very nice. You know, I think I jumped in a little bit too quickly. I want to ask you more about how the vendor, or, excuse me, not vendors, the volunteers are going. But before we do that, I think it'd be a good idea just to kind of give, like, a brief overview on the show, just in case anyone's like, what are you guys talking about? You know? [00:10:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I can tell you any little bit of it and just keep asking about it. It's a. It's essentially a bonsai show, a vendor area, and some programs and demonstrations and talks. And so we'll have roughly 75 outstanding bonsai from all over the US. We have trees coming from points northeast, south and west, and it's going to be a pretty amazing show. There are a few pretty special trees that people are going to see when they come this year, and we're very excited about that in terms of the vendor area, and we can talk at great length about this if you'd like. We have over 50 vendors lined up, and this should be one of the best shopping opportunities ever. We are going to have an unbelievable number of potters, pre bonsai growers, bonsai growers, and pretty much everything else in between. So it's going to be an absolutely unparalleled shopping experience, which I'm personally very excited about. And I know a lot of us are kind of holding back a lot of material just for the event. I'm probably bringing twelve to 15 mature bonsai, as well as a couple dozen trees. I've been growing from seed for about a decade, and all of these I just have not been making available for years now, knowing that I want to make sure they're available for the event. And then, I mean, our vendors actually include not one, but two of the top potters in Japan. And I know not a lot of us shows can say that, which we're pretty excited about. And then beyond that, we have a number of demonstrations, talks and lectures by some of the top practitioners in the US that'll be keeping people entertained throughout the weekend. [00:12:28] Speaker A: That is absolutely incredible. I'm so excited for it. You have no idea. This is the thing that I am personally most excited for in the entire year. Just so exciting for me. What about yourself? Like, is there a certain part of the expo that you are most excited to see or be involved with? Is there, like, one aspect of it, or is it hard to put your finger on that? [00:12:58] Speaker B: Well, it's really interesting because I think about that as an attendee. There are some ways in which I'd want to enjoy it. As one of the organizers, I think a lot about what my goals are for doing it, and then I just think about for the community's sake, you know, what's it like from their perspective? And I think by far the overwhelming goal and the thing I'm most curious about is we want people to have a great experience, and that's always our guiding light for the entire thing is, we just want to make sure that we're making it a good experience for people. Because if it's a good experience, they're going to be more likely to participate, want to come back, maybe submit a tree next time, maybe volunteer some more, maybe contribute in some other way. And that's by far what I'm most looking forward to, is just making sure that everyone that walks in the door at some point has a smile on their face while they're enjoying things. [00:13:51] Speaker A: Nice. I feel like you are too, too kind. And I'm curious, like for you personally, though, is there like a best, you know, thing that you're most excited to see, would you say? [00:14:04] Speaker B: I'll answer the question I'm probably trying to get at, but I'll frame it in a way that'll get you to understand my. Which isn't as selfless as it may seem. Perspective is when you invest 40 hours a week for six months, you want the results of that to be positive at some level. Who cares? Me walking into a room and seeing something that puts a smile on my face cannot compare to the return on the investment of my time. That is just for two years, since the last show, been an extraordinarily big chunk of time in my life. And so it really is, when you think of it that way, that's where my head is. It's where my creativity is going. It's not going into the trees in the backyard of the business, any of that stuff. A lot of it's been going into, channeled into putting on an event, which is funny for a bunch of us that none of whom are actual event planners. We're all just kind of teaching ourselves as we go. There are a few special trees I want to see leading up to the expo, and one reason why it exists. I've always loved bonsai shows. It's where I enjoy hanging out. I love seeing the trees. And I love that trees get the best treatment. It's where you see the top dressings, the pots cleaned up, the actual thoughtful displays, full and beautiful accents. There's just no other context in which you get to enjoy all of those aspects of bonsai. And it's where my closest friends hang out. That's why I love the national show, for instance, the experience of just being there is only ever fun. And so what we're trying to do differently this time is get enough help so that we can actually enjoy it a bit more. And I spend some time looking at the trees or taking some photos or catching up with people from the central coast of California who might happen to be there. [00:15:45] Speaker A: All right, fair play, man. Fair play. I think that you framed that perfectly, and now I'm understanding. I think it's just a whole lot of a different kind of thing for an attendee as opposed to the person that is putting everything together. And so I'm just thinking about it from my scope, and I'm just so excited. And I guess, like, personally, I was thinking so when I was younger, I remember that my parents, one time, they, I'd say, I'm gonna say, like, fourth grade or so, they took us out of school. Like, we played hooky. We didn't find out until the morning, and we went to Disneyland. Right? My parents took us to Disneyland, and when we got to Disneyland, there was just a magical feel that, that I had there. And I would say that, like, of course, you get jaded as you're, you get older, and, like, it's hard to find that feeling more as you, as you age and you. You have more and more experiences. But I would say the Pacific Bonsai expo for me is where I get the closest to that feel. And I just like seeing the, the exposition for the first time. All the trees, you know, it sometimes can give me, like, physical goosebumps, and I just get so excited just checking everything out. So I'm very excited for that. But I understand, like, you know, it's kind of like if I was in a wedding as opposed to the wedding planner, it's much different roles and different perspectives there. So you're helping us understand. [00:17:22] Speaker B: I will say that we did a pretty good job of keeping it together mentally and emotionally. I don't know about physically for the first expo, but I will say right before the doors opened, I walked outside and saw maybe 500 or more people lined up to come in, and it just instantly was overwhelming. And I couldn't stop crying, and I thought, oh, gosh, I got to get it together here. And the funny thing is, Eric had a similar experience. Daisaku had a similar experience. So just to see hundreds of people lined up for this harebrained idea we'd come up with was, uh, it was a really big moment. It was, it was something I. It's very likely it'll happen again this time. [00:18:02] Speaker A: That is so incredible. And so I'll stop doing this, but I I just want to say for you, Eric and now Andrew, a massive, massive, massive. Thank you for putting this on you and Eric and Andrew, so incredible. It's just what we need as a bonsai community, and it's been so awesome to see. And so I think for everyone that goes to the expo, they need to give you guys just the most incredible thank you ever, because we really, really appreciate it. And a lot of this work that you did is very selfless, and I don't think you were compensated for it. I'm not even sure I'm curious how. How everything pencils, in terms of, like, the financials. I know you guys have posted those, but I haven't looked at it very well. [00:18:54] Speaker B: I can give you just a massive curious. [00:18:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I am curious. I mean, in my opinion, I feel like you really deserve to be paid for this because it was a job that you took on to organize. But, yeah. Would you let me know how that's going and how that's looking? [00:19:11] Speaker B: Yeah. So, for the first event, it was pretty straightforward. It was essentially six months full time work for Eric and me last time, and I spent more or less $100,000 of my money, and we earned $100,000. And so that was the business end of the expo last time. And so then we spent the money we didn't earn to make a nonprofit. And so, so we invested in that last year, and we spent a ton of time in 23 putting together a nonprofit organization, setting that up. And there were a lot of various. A lot of people listening, I'm sure, have done that so they know what goes into it. So we took care of all of that to get set up to do this as a nonprofit again. This year. For our second show, our overall budget is going to be about $200,000, and our goal is to make enough money so that, at minimum, we can cover the deposit for the. For the rental, the venue for our third show. That's one of the main reasons we're trying to save up money. There's a lot of upfront costs. We've got accountants, bookkeepers, lots of software services that keep us going. And we're doing that all as a nonprofit to keep our overhead as low as possible. And we're on track for that right now. The main thing is that we just want to make sure that lots of people come and support not only us, but support the vendors, because it's when the vendors do well, that's when we know we've been a successful event. [00:20:34] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. Definitely need to support the vendors. I'm sure they're going to get a lot of patronage at this show, but, yeah, this show, I mean, it needs to pencil, it needs to make financial sense, you know, in order for it to continue. And so, and I feel like right now, even if you guys break even, like, to me, that's nothing where it should be. Like, I think you guys should be paid, there should be extra money left over. And I just. I feel like that's very important for the show to continue. And I know that that reason has made certain shows not continue. You know, like, I think Ryan Neal talks about the artisan cup didn't continue because of probably much of it was financial. I'm sure there was other issues there, but if it doesn't pencil, it just doesn't make sense to me. So I'm very concerned about that and how people can help there. [00:21:38] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's comic in hindsight, how silly the mistakes were. I mean, I can tell you in one sentence two things we did wrong for the first expo that led to it not being more profitable, but we literally didn't think to include a contingency for additional costs that came up along the way. And it didn't occur to us to actually pencil in a margin profit that just wasn't in the budget. So we budgeted to hit it right on. And then when contingencies came up, we had no extra money for that. And so that's why it ended up breaking even perfectly. Not because we, that was our goal, but just because we didn't have experience planning those kind of things. So you can guess what the first two items were. We added to the budget this year a contingency and enough blue skies so that we could, at minimum, cover deposit going forward in terms of compensating us. It's really, we're just trying to figure out, it's actually more important for us to reduce the time commitment, and that's just going to take more support for volunteers. We're great at getting the foot soldiers, people who show up and do work at the event. What's really hard is to find people that can help ease some of the responsibilities that come up in between the shows, the generals, that kind of make the thing happen. And we have, you know, committees for the book, for the program, for the metadata management, for the exhibit itself, for the facility and venue management, for the. For the front desk, for the ticketing, for the volunteers. There's all these positions that, let alone the book, that it falls to us if we don't have other people to help with that. And so we. We had a good core team for the first show. We've expanded that team for the second show, and the better and faster we can expand that team. That's actually, what's going to make it more possible for us to keep doing these down the road? Financially, it's going to be more a matter of, is there demand from the community? And if enough people want to come and buy tickets, then that'll take care of everything. And if the community doesn't want to come, well, then we probably need to put on a different kind of event, because there's just people vote with their feet in that case. And that's what we are most interested in, is if it's a miss for what the community wants. You and I love this event, and we happily go to it every couple. We'd go every year if we could, but that may not speak to everyone in the community. And so we're just trying to figure out what's the best fit, and how can we learn to make sure that we're kind of hitting the nail on the head in terms of what we want to offer people. [00:24:07] Speaker A: Nice. Can I pitch you a possible bad idea? [00:24:12] Speaker B: Oh, as many as you have. I'll listen. [00:24:16] Speaker A: I guess one fundraising type thing, and this is just taking it from good old bib show days, is did you ever consider doing a silent auction of members or, excuse me, exhibitors and vendors? Trees, I guess I was thinking I have trees that I would sell, and the way I could see it working is if you did like a silent auction, you had a kind of maybe a high price point. So it was a quality auction where we have really good quality trees. Maybe pots, say, like, you set the minimum retail value at four or $500 or something. You did a silent auction, so you didn't have to get an auctioneer, and then maybe you just opened it up only to people that are exhibiting, vendors or donors, and they could just sell their trees. You guys would take, like, 20%, 25%, and then the rest would go to the. To the person that owned the tree. What do you think? What do you think of my bad idea? [00:25:23] Speaker B: We actually have put in a lot of energy into thinking through how we can make something like that work. So in general, it's a fantastic idea, and I think we will be able to do it at some point. What we've run into are a small number of challenges, one being, is there enough material out there that people want to sell? And then we have questions of physically in the room, where do we put these trees? Who's responsible for guarding and managing these trees? At a show where most of the people who'd be buying these trees fly in, will they have a way to get these trees home afterwards? Or is it just going to be for the local people and you start getting, and then physically, is there space in the room and when's it going to be? Are we going to take time out of the show to do the auction? Are we going to add another day to the event? And so mostly for lack of resources in the planning, that's why we didn't do it. But if there were someone to manage it and extra room in the venue to do it and enough interest from people like you that have material that could go into the event, I think we could definitely do it. And that's the kind of thing that we're trying to figure out, uh, for the next event is could we kind of bake in space for something like this and time for something like this to make it possible? We actually are excited about auctions just to provide access to the community, to reduce trees from their, you know, remove trees from their collection as well as add trees to their collections. It's liquidity in the market for nice materials. Always been a challenge at pretty much every level, and we'd love to be able to help with that. [00:27:04] Speaker A: Cool. So part of that, I pitched you for selfish reasons. I just have some, you know, some trees that I would like to sell, and I, there's find a venture, put. [00:27:14] Speaker B: Them on their table. [00:27:15] Speaker A: I could definitely do that. Definitely do that. There's something about me that really hates picking a price point, which is kind of funny. And so I love the idea of an auction because I can let the market actually dictate the price. I don't want to set it too high because I'm going to feel like, you know, not a nice person. I don't want to set it too low because I feel like I'm not getting the value that that is appropriate. So I always love auctions, and I think they make a lot of sense for bonsai, just with you. [00:27:47] Speaker B: I mean, you know, I meant, I was the auctioneer for bib for many years, and when I wasn't auctioneer, I was doing the bookkeeping for the auction. So I, and I actually used to go to different clubs and do auctions around California way 20 years ago. And so I'm a giant fan of auctions in general for those exact same reasons. [00:28:04] Speaker A: You outline solid, solid, I was thinking. So back in the bib days, I believe the club would collect the money and then distribute it to the owner of the tree. And I think, and this is tough, you almost need, like, a legal consultant here when you talk about this, but the way I would envision you doing a side. An auction would probably be that Pacific Bonsai Expo didn't actually have to take any money in, and it was a direct relationship with the seller and the buyer, and then the 20% was like a donation or something. But I know that gets complicated and maybe you have to get a contract written or something like that, but I was just thinking it could be a really good revenue source for the Pacific bonsai expo. And if you started with a high price point, let's say like $600 minimum for trees, then it would probably keep it somewhat small. Or maybe you could go even higher than that. You could do kind of like an experiment for one year and see how it goes. All right, I'm done. I won't pitch you any more ideas there. [00:29:18] Speaker B: No. Do I mean, you now know who I'm going to contact first when we start hitting people up for trees. I know as among us organizers, Andrew, Eric and I, we talked about this a lot, actually. And so we all have trees that we'd be happy to put in. We just didn't know how many people outside of that would be interested in participating. [00:29:36] Speaker A: Gotcha. Gotcha. Makes sense. Very cool. Very cool. So were you able to delegate a whole lot more this year as opposed to, like, doing all the tasks compared to last year, or how's that time look? And I know you expressed some challenges there with, like, delegating maybe the high. [00:30:01] Speaker B: Level things, so definitely no, we've not been able to delegate much more. But we did get a big benefit in that there was a lot of work we did for the first one that we did not need to do at all. For the second one, it just, because it was done, we figured it out. And honestly, that feels absolutely fantastic. Our crucial flaw this year is that we did three new things this year which have entailed a way, way more work than we ever would have imagined. It seems really, really simple on the service, but by offering food at the event, by doing demos, programs, and by switching the venue, that alone is like doing another event. And that's on top of everything else. And so it turns out that it's actually, it's. It might even be more work than it was for the first time. [00:30:49] Speaker A: Yikes. Oh, boy, oh, boy. Well, thank you again, man. Oh, gosh. [00:30:57] Speaker B: Well, what is it that you're so excited about? You've mentioned that you were excited. What are, what's going to put the smile on your face when you walk in the door? I mean, you're going to see the show during setup. So you'll see all that. You'll judge the show Friday afternoon, but let's say at our reception Friday night, like, what. What's going to be exciting or Saturday morning when the vendor area opens? [00:31:20] Speaker A: Well, I mean, I think, personally, I am most excited to see the exhibit part. Like, I mean, of course, I'm excited to see the vendors as well. I've been actually buying a few trees myself recently, so I'm like, can't. Personally, I shouldn't spend a whole lot of money, but I will definitely be supporting some of the incredible vendors there. Yeah, I don't know. It's interesting. I just love to see where we're at as a bonsai community on the west coast in terms of where's the bar, what kind of quality do we have? I just love to see the variety of the trees, which trees show up. I will say I have mixed feelings about the setup because it's like, I get to. I get a sneak peek at everything, you know, because I'm setting my tree up, but I'm looking at everybody else's tree, and I both love that. And then I also wish I could just walk in and just see that the exhibit all set up already. So, I don't know. Just mixed feelings there. And then from the vendor area. You guys have so many great vendors. It's. It's hard to say. I'm now, personally, I'm a massive fan of Austin Heitzman. I always love seeing what he's got on display. His jetas. Now's pots are just so incredible. Really curious to see the vendor that does 3d printing of pots and then brings them in, or. I think he's from another country. Do you know who I'm talking about? [00:33:06] Speaker B: No, I don't know who that would be. [00:33:08] Speaker A: Shoot, hopefully, he's actually vending, and I'm not just making this up. What is his name? His glazes look very similar to Koyo. Koyo. Do you know who I'm talking about? [00:33:23] Speaker B: That would be from New Zealand. [00:33:25] Speaker A: Yes. He's coming, right? [00:33:27] Speaker B: Yes. [00:33:28] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. So I don't know. Have you seen his process? Very much of the 3d printing of the. Okay. [00:33:35] Speaker B: I haven't seen any of it, so I'm actually really interested to learn more. [00:33:40] Speaker A: Yeah. And I don't know much about it. In fact, I would love to interview and talk with him at the show, but looks like to me, he creates molds by 3d printing the mold, and then he somehow pours the ceramic body into the mold and then fires, which is a little bit different than a lot of people are doing, but his, his pots are extremely precise because of that 3d printing molding process. [00:34:08] Speaker B: I've seen the pots, but I haven't seen the process, so I'll be really looking forward to that. But, yeah. Richard Kerner Carney from New Zealand. Yeah, his work is just stunning. [00:34:17] Speaker A: Absolutely. His glazes are phenomenal, for sure. So, yeah, that's what I would say about that. [00:34:25] Speaker B: Well, that's funny what you said about walking into the show, because I had kind of the same reaction. When you're watching the show take shape, it's very different than just having that impactful moment where you go from nothing to everything, and it's just, it's a big wow moment. And I remember as the sun was fading on the last one, as we all left, the light was really neat because the light was low and the trees all had this glow around them. And it was pretty spectacular, actually. Even though we'd been working there all day long, it was, everything was only cleaned up right at the very last minute so you could kind of look up and down the aisles and think, wow. Kind of happy with how that came out. [00:34:59] Speaker A: That's so cool. So volunteer wise, you're saying you feel good about getting the volunteers in terms of actual work on show day? You're good there. [00:35:13] Speaker B: We need a lot more. [00:35:15] Speaker A: Really. Okay, sweet. [00:35:16] Speaker B: We're halfway there, and so we need people to do that. And so I'm actually going to be sending a note out to the exhibitors, to everyone who will listen, is we need people to contribute their time, whether, you know, an hour or two here and there. And for people who don't want to pay tickets, you can get in for free by volunteering. If you work 2 hours on either Saturday or Sunday, you get a ticket for that for free that day. And so we're trying to make it easy for people to participate that way. But we filled half the spots in the last, just week or two. So we're off to a great start. But I would love to make sure we had Unwe, had unmet volunteer slots for the first show, which was odd because we were sold out and people were unhappy they couldn't get tickets, but we didn't get the volunteering. And so we're like, okay, we have expanded volunteer opportunities this year, hundreds of them, actually. And so there's still, as of now, 100 5200 slots open. [00:36:08] Speaker A: Gotcha. Okay, I'll throw my name in there on one of those as well, and we'll post it on Instagram. And try and try and get the word out there. What else do you need? Like, you know, really, we just need. [00:36:25] Speaker B: People to show up. And so one thing I'm telling people is if you're a vendor, tell your customers to come. If you're an exhibitor, just invite one more friend than you invited last time. If you're affiliated with a club, try to just convey what it is, what's special about shows and how people can benefit from attending. We actually get a fairly small percentage of the bonsai community in terms of average club members, and there's a lot of reasons for that. And so one thing that's happened over the last 510 years is fewer and fewer clubs are oriented around shows. They're more month to month. Who's talking this month? And there's kind of no overall, how are we improving your trees? How are we, or why are we improving our trees? And in general, it's for exhibits. And so I've been talking to a lot of clubs just about how to kind of bake in this appreciation for events, to try to normalize what it looks like to volunteer what it looks like to make our trees look as beautiful as possible, and what the options actually are in terms of our shopping opportunities. [00:37:29] Speaker A: Do you know of any clubs that have said that they're coming? I guess personally, I'm like, man, I think that's like the coolest thing that a club could do is roll up and rep their club at the Pacific Bonsai Expo. Do you have any that have said that they're coming? That seems like a genius idea to me. [00:37:48] Speaker B: You know, yes and no. A great example is the Minnesota Bonsai society showed up. I mean, there were more than a dozen people that came in from Minnesota to the show, and that tells you that they're doing a great job kind of promoting the importance of bonsai exhibits. For all of them to make it that far is absolutely outstanding. And I got to meet a lot of these people in person just a couple weeks ago when I was back there to see their show, and it was super fun to catch up and know that there's another big crew coming out this year. And so another thing is, there were a couple of clubs last time that decided to take on portions of responsibilities, and I thought that was really fantastic. For instance, one club took on the backdrop making, another club took on aspects of the security at different parts of the day or the volunteer management. And so we are getting bits of that. And I just think there's a lot more opportunity to say, hey, we're going to take on XYZ. I will say that the local clubs have done an awesome job this time and that a group of clubs are together sponsoring our shuttle buses. We're going to have shuttle buses running on a loop to and from the hotel and to and from the bonsai garden at Lake Merritt, which is, I kid you not, they are spending a full twelve months cleaning up the garden and the bonsai at the garden, knowing that they're going to get a ton of visitors at the end of next month. [00:39:11] Speaker A: That is so cool. Oh, and man, I want to see what clubs are out there. I'm excited. I think it'd be really cool if more clubs got involved. I hope that happens. Seems like a great idea for a club to sponsor a specific aspect of the show and really like, take ownership of that. And I just think it'd be a great. I mean, like, what else? What else is a Bonsai club for? Like, I think that that's like the definition of what they should be doing is seeing the most badass bonsai show this side, the Mississippi. [00:39:49] Speaker B: That'd be the number one thing I would actually love to see more of in clubs is just to just have an underlying conveying the importance or the excitement that can come around bonsai shows. I mean, it's what got me excited about Bonsai so, so long ago. It's like, wow, these get really pretty when you clean them up and it's. And then when you get to meet and get to know the people that are also participating in the exhibits, you make friends with them, you learn from them, and you can really speed up your learning. And so when I think of how many of my best moments in Bonsai Bonsai have been around exhibits, I would just love to do what I can to help clubs convey that same kind of excitement to their memberships. [00:40:30] Speaker A: Very nice. Very nice. I know that you said that you, Andrew and Eric were talking about the number three was just curious. Just for funsies, I won't hold you to any of these. Can you give us any juicy details or any tea on maybe what we could expect in a future one? [00:40:54] Speaker B: I can tell you what we're thinking about, and not for lack of secrecy, but for lack of. You'll understand really quickly, one of the biggest aspects to the success of an event like this is the venue. And finding a good venue that conveys, there's always a message that the building itself conveys or the space itself conveys. And we're always in the search for an ever better facility that can host this event. And there's a lot of some exciting and some boring details, you know, little checkboxes that you need out of a venue. And we spent months looking at every last public and private space in pretty much from Monterey to Portland. We looked at a big percentage of the spaces that are obvious spots for meetings, and we ended up being really happy with where we ended up, but we want to do better. And so part of it is we're looking to see is there a venue that's going to help us check more of the boxes to make an event a big success that's super general, not interesting. Here's another thing I can say that can get you a better idea of what we're thinking is when we planned out the first expo, my original idea for how we'd lay out the design was actually to create a bunch of intimate spaces that were all organized by theme. For instance, wouldn't it be interesting if we had high mountain trees here, or trees of a certain size or style over there? And we kind of told a story simply by how we arranged bonsai in a space. And one idea we have for doing that next time would be to talk to people who might have the ability to manage a space and literally do whatever they want. They could theme it, put stuff on the ground, do monkey poles, do backdrops, make industrial design stands? We don't care to some degree, but we might say, hey, Andrew, what if you had all of your customers get together and give us a giant life size deciduous forest? Hey, Peter, what if you had all of your customers together in one space and did hyper conservative traditional displays or something crazy, or both? In other words, instead of just lining up trees on tables, on tables, which is what the standard bonsai show does, what if we could come out with a layout, let alone a thematic approach to exposing people to trees, giant amounts of overhead. It relies on the right people, the right players. We still would likely do some normal display spaces as well. What we think of as normal, I could say conventional as easily, but that's the thing that kind of gets me excited. Or what are things we can do that can help bring that level of excitement to more people? And what we've learned is that when people kind of go off in novel directions, it can get a lot of people excited. Would you, would any of those resonate with you? [00:43:45] Speaker A: Well, I mean, I think that's a super fun idea, and it would be so interesting to see what people come up with. And just when people get experimental, at the Pacific Bonsai expo, for example, like Michael Hagedorn's little pine on that cool metal stand that that was created. And then the Pacific Museums lab project, those were like, some of the coolest displays, in my opinion, just because they're different and they're just so fun and interesting to see where people's minds wander off to and how they create what they create. So, yeah, I think that would be really cool idea and very interesting. I wonder if people. I think some people will dive into that and then some people will want the traditional, you know, and I think there's not a wrong answer there. So maybe you could have kind of a mix of both or something. One thing that I have been thinking about a lot lately is just. It was interesting. You said, maybe we have a spot where there's high mountain pines, right. An area like the idea of bringing traditional asian species and then mixing them with our native species, or, you know, like all different types of species is just an interesting concept. And I think that it works and I think it's fine. And more so, like, I think it. It's nice to have a good balance of deciduous, broadleaf, and evergreen or conifer type trees. But I also do like the idea. I like thinking about not saying this is a good idea or I would do this, but I like thinking about, like, what if you did divide things out and you had maybe, like, trees of the central coast, you know, you had redwood coast, live oak, manzanita. I think that could be really cool. I also think we're not really at a stage within bonsai where we have enough trees to support things like that yet. But just an idea I've been thinking about a lot lately. So cool that you said that. [00:46:02] Speaker B: Well, you actually suggested something that I find really interesting, which is that when you line all the trees up at a show, there's actually a lot of, especially us shows, there's a lot of things going on that aren't necessarily obvious, by which different professionals have radically different approaches to the same basic kinds of material. That's one thing going on. Another thing going on. Was there a specific example of exotic species versus native species? Another thing that's going on is we have species representing extremely different climates. Coastal California is not the Rocky Mountains. And I've always thought any discussions about nativeness and bonsai kind of missed the mark, because what's native to where I grow is. Or. Yeah, or the boundary thing that you just said. Yeah, that's right. That's a really obvious starting point. So I think it would be cool if we could make more visible to more people, some of the things that are going on. So you, for instance, know what to look for. And as you walk up and down an aisle, you're going to take note of, and I mean, you specifically, Jeremiah will note who styled that tree, who worked on that? What basic approach are they taking? And lumping those together might make a more compelling portrayal of whatever that approach or shared. Yeah, approach is really the right word for how those are made. And I would love to be able to tell more stories, you know, based on a size, a convention, a display convention, or refer to the trees themselves. I think there's a ton of opportunity there. We've seen some of that out there in other events, but I can imagine several ways in which we do that. So that's one tiny idea of the kind of thing that's on our mind as we go into another show. [00:47:48] Speaker A: That's really interesting. I wonder how you could show the differences to people. I guess definitely through docent tours and people, skilled bonsai individuals pointing those things out. But, like, are there, like, how would you do that? The funny thing I always think about when I think about blending asian species with, say, for example, coastal California species, right? Is it almost feels like, like, like with food, when you blend, let's say, mexican food with japanese food, and you get the ahi fish taco in, like, a wonton wrapper and like, is that a good thing? Do we. Do we need the fusion, or should we have it keep things separate? And that's kind of where my mind goes. Kind of a funny example there. [00:48:33] Speaker B: Well, it is a funny example, because is it a fusion of the elements into one new whole, or is it simply a juxtaposition of elements? Because those are kind of two different things. And right now we've got lots of juxtapositions going on within the event. And so whether or not there is fusion intentionally, there's always going to be some fusion that all that most of the people in the room will be using conventional pots used in japanese exhibits, which are not super informed by the tree's needs, as opposed to by a very narrow construction of conventional bonsai display. We can say that about the branch designs. We can say that about what species we're using. So there actually are a lot of conventions there, and I think by grouping things, it just makes it a little easier to tell the story. I wouldn't want to beat people over the head with it and let them kind of make their own decisions based on what they like or don't like about that. But when I think of all the non bonsai people that come to events like this who appreciate them as just artistic events, it just becomes really easy to say, here's our high Sierra Stroll, here's our coastal stroll, or here is, is one artisans approach, or here is another artisans approach. Those are some really neat ways of cutting it up. Also add the judging would be reflected that. So we're actually planning to radically overhaul the evaluation of the trees based on whatever approach we end up taking. [00:50:01] Speaker A: Gotcha. Okay. For this upcoming show, is the judging going to be the same as the last show? [00:50:08] Speaker B: Yep, just about. Exactly. We have nine different categories or eight categories. So there will be eight category awards and then a best in show. And the mechanism will be just like last time. As an exhibitor, you will have 2 hours to evaluate every tree in the room on a scale of one to five. And then you'll be able to rank your top three selections for best in show. The only difference is we have a few new categories. [00:50:33] Speaker A: What are the new categories this year? [00:50:35] Speaker B: If you remember large categories getting split in half. So we have small and medium, and then we have large deciduous, large broadleaf, and large conifer, and extra large deciduous, extra large broadleaf, and extra large conifers. [00:50:52] Speaker A: I'm excited for the judging process, and I am, yeah, I feel like it's just a really good exercise. And I recently listened to Ryan Neal speak about it on the Mirai live platform that he has. And he had, he talked a bit about the Pacific Bonsai expo. You know, he kind of called some people out for not putting enough effort and focus into it. And I think I kind of agree with him. And so this year, I really want to put 100% of my brain, focus and power in there, spend a lot of time and really think about things as deeply as possible, and do, do a very good job judging. I think that's extremely important, but I'm excited to go through that exercise, and I think it helps me as a hobbyist improve in terms of what I think is good and. Yeah. [00:52:00] Speaker B: Well, good. We're actually trying to find ways to support the judging process by providing some kind of learning assets ahead of time. Actually, this just came up last week. So this last week's post was about how to judge an exhibit. Someone wrote in and said, hey, I have to judge a show. How do I do that? And so I sent him a bunch of, a handful of resources on the topic. It's a deep topic, and if you're talking about that event, that or the live stream that Ryan did, about how to be an exhibitor, how to be a judge or jury member. That's an absolutely fantastic program. I'd recommend that anyone who's interested check it out. It was really well done and he brought up actually lots of really good points in there, and I wish more people would think through those things because there are a lot of good points. It's hard to be a good judge, and there are a lot of things that come up in judging. I don't know that we have anyone that's a perfect judge, and so I would say everyone should just let go of that idea, including the professionals. I don't know a professional who has an equal depth of knowledge for display and cultivation approaches for every last size and species like that, just as far as I know, does not exist. And that includes literally everyone practicing in North America. Some people are a lot deeper than others, but even then you have expertise within specific sub camp categories. So that's why we kept the process simple. You get a score of one to five, and if three is the average tree in the room, that means that an above average tree in the room gets a four and a contender for prize gets a five. That's pretty straightforward. Then it's just a matter of finding out whether or not people feel comfortable to identify or distinguish an average tree from an above or below average tree in the room. If you can do that, then you're in pretty much good shape. [00:53:50] Speaker A: For sure. I feel like we almost need to take, like, an unconscious bias trait bonsai training before judging. [00:53:59] Speaker B: Well, we did that last time, so, meaning on from our end, we actually did hundreds of test judges using different scales to identify which biases came up. And we actually implemented a bunch of anti bias measures into the judging process. And I think they worked. Worked. Doesn't mean it's perfect. We still have human judges, but we did that exact thing. We literally had a couple massive online adventures and many in person judges. So there were very few surprises in the results of the process. Just based on how much energy went. [00:54:35] Speaker A: Into coming up with that upfront, that is fantastic. I guess what I am thinking about a lot, personally is just like, I know that I'm biased towards certain types of trees, and I also am just unfamiliar with certain types of trees, like, say, like a bald cypress. I haven't spent time collecting them in the swamps. I've never actually even seen a bald cypress in person growing out in the natural environment. But I've spent, you know, countless hours up in the mountains in the Sierra looking at Sierra Juniper. So I feel like, you know, I have a bias towards Sierra Juniper over the. The cypress. And I just. I feel like that may be unfair. Everyone has that going on, though, you know? [00:55:29] Speaker B: And so does that mean you're more likely to. Does that make you a harsher judge of Sierras? Because, you know, what makes a good Sierra versus what makes a bad Sierra? Or does that make you a more forgiving judge among Sierras because you just like them, and even if it's a bad one, you like it better than a good bald cypress, because when you look to the specific mechanisms, it's interesting, kind of. You should be in a position to be the most strict judge. [00:55:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of both. So, yes, I would say in a. In many ways, it does make me more strict, but I also know that I personally like a really great Sierra juniper over a really great bald cypress. [00:56:13] Speaker B: So let's try it a different way. Does what you like affect the way you judge in your personal case? Like, we all have different answers to that. [00:56:23] Speaker A: We'll see. [00:56:23] Speaker B: Is life relevant or germane to judging a like or dislike? [00:56:28] Speaker A: I feel like. I don't think so, but I know that I have unconscious bias. Right. And, like, that's totally fair. Yeah. My subconscious probably makes me pick something over another thing, and that's just the way I feel. I don't know if I answered the question very well. [00:56:46] Speaker B: No, that's it, exactly. A lot of people believe that their likes actually do affect the scores. I pretty strongly believe likes don't weigh into the scores, but people are all over the map on that one. A very important first point is your job as a juror to tell us what you like. And in my response, no, it's not. It's how well executed are these different trees? And so, as you're looking at a bald cypress, based on all the images of bald cypress you've seen, do you think they did an average job, an above average job, or kind of a below average job of that? And that's a good example, because the jury's still out about what the perfect bald cypress bonsai can be. There's a lot of species we're familiar with, but I don't think we've fully gotten the most out of them. You're displaying a redwood. The community's still. That's very much up in the air about what makes a great redwood. [00:57:38] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:57:39] Speaker B: The biases that I worry about are things like personal approaches. Like, I like the way that person styles things. And so what other people do isn't different. It's inferior, and that's a form of bias that's really hard to deal with, where for most people, different actually isn't different, it's just inferior that one's harder to measure. And then I'd say, great, submit more trees to find like minded people. And then you all cancel each other out and we'll get a good answer. [00:58:05] Speaker A: Totally. Jonas, you are so smart and you're so good at explaining the points that you want to hit on. And I always love to get your perspective. I had a quote recently that I kind of stole from the coyote hobbyist world and that I like, and I think it kind of applies to bonsai as well. So I heard it from a coy judge, and I'll say it in bonsai terms. So basically the quote was just, I'm more into bonsai appreciation than bonsai assassination. So I'm more into bonsai appreciation than bonsai assassination. And I think it's an interesting one to ponder about. And I love to get your perspective. So I just wanted to say it to you and, like, hear what your thoughts are when. When you hear that. I guess I'm curious, like, when it comes to other people's styles, right? Like, so everybody styles their trees differently. Peter T. Has his approach, you have your approach. Andrew has his approach. And then, hey, say, Walter Paul may have a very different approach. There's just all these different approaches. And obviously we are going to prefer. Everyone has a bias towards liking a specific way of styling trees, right? But I think that sometimes I find myself getting a little bit jaded and not allowing myself to appreciate trees because, like, I know what I like and what I dislike and I don't want this quote to say that it's not good to be critical about bonsai. Like, I think that we should be judging bonsai. I'm all about competition. I think competition brings out the best in us. Healthy competition and things like the Pacific Bonsai Expo are incredible. I just think that we all got into this because of the appreciation aspect. We all appreciate bonsai. And I think that the quote just kind of perfectly sums it up for me. Like, I. In, I think in my life, I'm going to know what's good and what's bad. Bonsai or different approaches. I want to learn how people approach bonsai on a different level. I want to know what makes a great tree and what makes a poor tree. But overall, I always want to appreciate bonsai. I want to be more into the appreciation. I want to be more into bonsai appreciation than bonsai assassination. I don't want to, like, talk smack about bonsai too much. I don't want to get too jaded and not appreciate bonsai trees. [01:00:46] Speaker B: Long weird to resonate within the koi world. What do you think was meant by assassination? Like, if you were to restate what you took his meaning to be, what would the quote be? Just without using that word? [01:01:00] Speaker A: I think that in the koi world, people are very strict on every little aspect of the koi, just like we are with bonsai. You know, like, how good is the pattern? How good is the color? How good is this and that and this and that? And a lot of people would talk smack about specific koi and say that koi is no good. It's total shit, right? Even though it might be like $3,000 koi that this individual owner absolutely loves. So I think this koi judge was saying it's okay to appreciate koi and to still love them. And let's not spend so much time on the assassination. Let's not just, like, tear this koi to bits. Let's focus more on the appreciation aspects, the good over the bad. I'm just curious your thoughts on that. [01:01:56] Speaker B: The first thing that comes to mind is what a critique is. And there has, for reasons unknown to me, long been a tradition of critiques being an opportunity to point out what's wrong with a given tree. And I've never totally understood why that exists. Because at no point, or at least rather rarely, does it ever come to pass that someone says, oh, cool, a visiting professional. What sucks about my tree? Because who doesn't know what sucks about their tree? We all know that that's like the easiest, laziest thing to do is, well, it could be like this, it could be like that. That's very easy for even beginners to do. Honestly, what's always interested me about critiques and what I love about doing them is it's an opportunity to talk about where you could go from there. And you have a lot more control over tree than, say, with a fish. Because some things are going to be available and some things are just not. Like each hobby is going to have its own kind of inherent limitations. And so the very act of judging itself is always framed differently for me. And this actually came up from a couple people who actually wrote me back after my last brief post about how to judge events is a lot of people bake in. The whole point of it is to just point out the demerits. And what I like doing is not saying that there's a right way or a wrong way, but based on the approach someone has chosen, do I think they've executed it well? And so great. You are so and so, and you study with this kind of teacher. I hope that you're biased for that kind of work because that's why you chose that teacher. So I think a lot of bias is totally natural and reasonable. Where I'm going to get strict is okay, well, if this is your bias, and these are the kind of tenants that your school of bonsai hold, I'm going to judge you based on how well you've executed against this kind of school that you're a part of or approach that you're a part of. And so I don't really have a horse in the race for wanting anyone's tree to look one way or another. But as much as I have a bias, it's very much toward well executed trees, thoughtful designs and training techniques that take place over time rather than in the moment. And those, I will admit freely, are all biases. But it's the end towards which you apply those different things. I think that you get the true wonder and diversity that can make a fun show that highlights all the different approaches. [01:04:32] Speaker A: Beautifully said. Nice work, man. Love it. [01:04:37] Speaker B: We'll see if it means anything, and we'll see what happens. We publish our scores anonymously, and there were a few people that don't appear to be judging with purity of heart, you could say, and I don't know that I want to go to make it not anonymous, but I'd say it, if you look closely at the scores, or even not that closely, it's not hard to tell what scores are the head scratching ones, and that radically would kind of narrow it down as to where those might be coming from. But the reason we want to do it is literally the only reason we even have awards or judging is for educational purposes. And the reason I've been passionate about evaluation has nothing to do with shows and everything to do with how do you know you're paying the right amount for a tree if you can't evaluate a tree? How do you know if you're charging a fair price when you sell, if you're paying a fair price when you buy? Otherwise, it's just all based on emotions, which is also fair. But I want to know, you know, is this a fair way to treat a customer, and is this a fair way to treat myself? The more we arm ourselves with knowledge about what goes into a given species, a bald cypress or a ficus, the better prepared we'll be to appreciate it when we see it in a show, know what it's worth if we're buying or selling it, and more. We're able to talk about it with our friends as we're standing in front of it at the exhibit. [01:06:05] Speaker A: Are you, you're presenting on bonsai evaluation, is that correct? [01:06:09] Speaker B: Yes. Very nice. [01:06:11] Speaker A: Looking forward to that. [01:06:13] Speaker B: And so that'll be just a brief rundown of the exercise we did with Bael and bonsai for so many years. And it will talk about kind of an atomistic approach to looking at trees. What is it that we look for in different species? What is it we look for in different parts of different trees? And then kind of a little bit about setting a scale, whether a relative or an absolute scale. Then we're going to turn people loose to kind of judge the tree on their own, where we actually put the score sheets that the judges use into the program so everyone can kind of play around with the idea or kind of think through what these concepts made. [01:06:49] Speaker A: Fantastic. I think it's great that you guys have all the presentations and educational information going on this year. Really looking forward to all those things and the demos as well. [01:07:04] Speaker B: Yeah, we're really curious what people think of them. It's all an experiment. We know that other events do these all the time. It'll be interesting to see how well it grafts onto our event. [01:07:13] Speaker A: All right, can I go with a ridiculous but fun to me question? [01:07:19] Speaker B: Sounds perfect. Yes. [01:07:20] Speaker A: All right. Okay, so let's just say for Pacific Bonsai expo number three, an anonymous donor comes and says, hey, I want to give you $1.5 million, and you have to put all 1.5 into one, and each of the organizers get $100,000. Any ideas, any guesses for what you would do in that circumstance? [01:07:52] Speaker B: I can tell you what the goal would be just right off the top of my head. And it's funny in a lot of ways that's actually not as outlandish as it seems, in that a lot of people put a lot of money into the arts every single year. And so? So it's not, I mean, it might be exaggerated, but it's actually not that totally crazy an idea. And so. And so I take it seriously, and we've thought about this kind of thing before. If money were no problem, I would say we would want to pick our goals really carefully and then execute against those goals. The first thing that comes to mind is impact. What impact do we want to have on which community? And so the very first thing on that topic would be, do we want impact within the Bonsai community, outside the Bonsai community, or both? The artisans cup very specifically chose impact to the non bonsai community over the Bonsai community. And those were choices of the venue, choices of the lighting, and choices of the display. It had to do with the whole storyline about bringing new people into bonsai and conceiving of bonsai as an artistic event. And they put extraordinary time, money and effort into doing that. And I thought they actually, they kind of nailed it. They hit their goals. Now, that didn't work for everybody, but they had chosen an audience and they again, kind of executed against that. And so we'd want to do the same kind of thing. I would definitely want a lot of people to see the show, and so we would want to hold it in a place where we could get tons of traffic. We would want money to be no barrier for participation due to the levels of support that would make it free or cheap to attend and or participate in. And it means that the experience for those who do participate would be absolutely fantastic. In other words, there'd be no reason to cut a single corner. That could potentially have an adverse effect on the visitor experience. It could do things like bring in trees from a little further away, which could up the overall quality. It could provide deeper educational experiences. It could potentially make the event last a little bit longer. So that could get the numbers down a little bit and make it easier to appreciate the show over time. Time. Theres just a lot of really cool things that couldnt happen with support like that. And weve actually had some pretty good opportunities to do big things in this event. Like our cash contributions have been fantastic for this event and were super appreciative. One reason for why were excited and anticipating success is simply because of the awesome outpouring that weve had from the community thats letting us do things like thank the donor and exhibitor community by throwing a reception for them Friday night. You know, a lot of your listeners know there are a lot of expenses for getting a nonprofit up and running, and we're literally just thanking the people that are making this possible. That's why Friday night exists and instead of a big banquet, because we just want to give thanks to show our appreciation. I know how much work it is to be an exhibitor for a bonsai event, let alone an out of town event. Having driven to New York three times, now we just want to say thanks to the people that are going to the effort. Your trees don't magically get to our event looking the way they do, without an absurd amount of thought and time and energy to drive things around, to find the right pot to moss them up, to make them look good. And if anyone doesn't know, trying to get a redwood to an exhibit with no brown tips on it is no mean feat. That's no joke at all. [01:11:32] Speaker A: You are correct there. [01:11:33] Speaker B: Yes. [01:11:36] Speaker A: Got it. Well, you are in a good spot. So hopefully, I mean, geographically speaking, being in Silicon Valley, hopefully there's some tech guru out there or something like that that will become your $1.5 million anonymous donor. That would be awesome. Awesome. [01:11:57] Speaker B: But it'd be an. It'd be an awesome challenge. Like, I think it would be an incredibly hard challenge to live up to that kind of a gift. But, uh, there's excitement for that kind of thing. I mean, we daydream about that kind of stuff all the time. [01:12:09] Speaker A: For sure. For sure. And I would love to see a mix of both making an impact on the bonsai community and then those outside of the Bonsai community. I think, you know, with that kind of money, I'm sure you could accomplish both, and that would be a beautiful. Thing. [01:12:23] Speaker B: Thing. Yeah, no, I think it'd be really cool. [01:12:26] Speaker A: Awesome. Hey, do you mind if we take a quick break? [01:12:30] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. Totally fine. I was going to say I wanted to get back and finish answering the very first question you asked. [01:12:40] Speaker A: Yeah? Which question was that? [01:12:43] Speaker B: And you can probably cut it to right here. The first thing that you mentioned is tell us a little bit about what your day to day looks like for running the expo. And, you know, what it like working with Eric and Andrew on this. And there's a lot I could say about that. The overview is we're in constant communication. I know I mentioned that there's a lot of long phone calls, there's a lot of texts, there's a lot of sharing of pictures and ideas, and it kind of comes and goes in waves as we're focusing on different parts of it. It's not that it's not busy before the show and gets busy at the show. It's. It really is constantly busy because there are different aspects that are timely at different points along the way. And so right now, we're cranking to get all of the. The final information we need from all of our vendors and all of our exhibitors so we can make a program as we kick that off, where, um, Eric's working on another amazing centerpiece for the room, Andrew's working on the trophies for the event, and then we're talking on top of that about room decorations. And so that's like a tiny snapshot of what's going on just this week, for example, and I'm getting quotes from multiple printers for the book and for reprints of the old book and for the new book and for the program. And so we're juggling all of these different things. And I think we are all lucky that we are all working on this because it's been awesome having Eric and Andrew and me really all together because we're all doing different bits of it. And it just makes it easy to have someone to bounce ideas off of and to actually ease the burden and then do some of that work. So I think we've got a fantastic core team making this all happen. [01:14:24] Speaker A: That's very exciting about Eric making a centerpiece. I'm very curious. The John Naka bird thing that he made last time was absolutely incredible. Also, he pulled me up at one point in time and we went really high on, I don't know what it was called, but some type of machine and freaked me, absolutely freaked me out. So Eric, don't ask me to do that again. But I'm down to do whatever else you guys need help with. And very interesting about Andrew doing the trophies. Is he sourcing that out to someone else or getting help with that? Or is he like creating them himself? [01:15:04] Speaker B: Or he's working with a craftsman who's going to be fabricating everything and everything is totally in flux even now somehow. And so I'll just. We'll put off the details until they actually come to life. But Andrew's been kind of managing that process for a long time now. [01:15:21] Speaker A: Awesome, awesome. Exciting to hear. So had kind of a funny story I just wanted to mention to you and sorry, I'm getting a little bit off topic. That's just. I think I am just get a little off topic every once in a while. I hope that's when going back to when we first met, I'm sure you probably don't remember this, but there was a while where I was kind of intimidated by you. And so when I joined Bib, I think probably met you probably in 2010 or 2011 for the first time, I'm going to guess. And I didn't know you very well. However, we were in a workshop together with Boone and I remember I had a Sierra juniper and Boone helped me bend this branch down. And then Boone asked me to do the guy wire, right? And so I set the guy wire up, I grabbed my wire pliers and I put my wire plier on the wire, and Boone was holding the branch, and I started twisting, but I was pulling while I was twisting, and Boone gave me just the dirtiest look, and he just goes, Jonas. And then you walked across from. Across the workshop, and you just. First time, you know, basically, like, you're supposed to pull and then twist down so you don't pull the wire and break the wire. Right. And just. First time, you just did it. Like, it was just so easy. You just gave me a smile and then, like, went back to your. To your work. But it was kind of like the bonsai equivalent of, like, putting me in my place as a newbie. So for a little while was a little bit like. I don't know, just felt like you were very one of the elderly gentlemen in the club and felt a little. [01:17:21] Speaker B: Elderly in my thirties. I appreciate that. [01:17:25] Speaker A: Well, started. You. You started. Helped start the club. So. Yeah. [01:17:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:17:32] Speaker A: Just a funny little story. [01:17:33] Speaker B: Yeah. What's another word for someone who's been around a long time as opposed to elderly? [01:17:39] Speaker A: Not elderly. [01:17:40] Speaker B: So. No, I don't remember that. I wish I did. Was that at the Alameda workshop? [01:17:47] Speaker A: Probably. [01:17:49] Speaker B: Or that hayward by then? [01:17:51] Speaker A: I'm not sure. I can't remember when Boone moved. I don't remember either, because I started right before. Like, I think I did a couple intensives at the Alameda location, and then he moved, and it probably was at Hayward, actually. [01:18:08] Speaker B: That sounds familiar about the Alameda, you doing the intensives? Because I remember you coming in for the intensives. That's right, because I used to stop by and at least say hi to everyone doing an intensive for a lot of years. I did that. [01:18:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:18:20] Speaker B: Yeah. It was just fun to see people. Who are these people traveling around the country to play with little trees. That sounds great. [01:18:26] Speaker A: Yes, yes. But anyways, after that trip, I. On the drive home, I remember I had my wire pliers in one hand, and I was just practicing turning in my hand, and I was just thinking, like, okay, like, pull and then twist down. Pull and then twist down. And I eventually I got it down, but that was like. Was a funny thing. It's funny the things that you remember and stick with you in your mind. [01:18:53] Speaker B: Like, so many bonsai things. It's counterintuitive, and. And it takes practice, and so it's. I. One of the best things about teaching is that you are continually learning how to be a better teacher, which actually teaches you how to do the actual task itself. It's a funny, circular thing. I felt guilty is the wrong word, but at one point, I was teaching workshops last week in Minnesota. And I just kept thinking, I felt like I was learning as much, if not more, than everybody there, because while everyone's focused on a task, I'm asking questions and I'm learning, how can you interpret or misinterpret every last instruction that every one of you is getting. So I feel like I'm learning from five people's experience right now, and you're learning one experience right now. And it. It's one of the most fun things about teaching in bonsai is that you are learning from every last student. You're learning how to teach it. You're learning how to do it. You're learning what people do in different climates. And so I was just asking tons of questions, then looking with my eyes, how are things growing with different winters, with different summers, with different humidity, with different techniques? And so it's. If you're a sponge, once you care enough, you become a sponge for this kind of thing. And it's. It pretty much makes every last aspect of it exciting. And that came to mind when you talked about this funny, random moment in a workshop, and it made you think about someone else in the workshop. It made you think about what skills you could learn, and you're still thinking about these things 15 years later. That's a lot to pack into one little, tiny anecdote, but I think that happens all the time in Bonsai, for sure. [01:20:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And I would definitely like to teach Bonsai at some point, and I don't teach any bonsai right now, but I always feel like when you teach something, you just become so much better at it. Right. Because it's forcing you to think about it from the beginner's perspective, break down every little aspect and detail, and you're practicing over and over again. So I feel like to really get good at Bonsai teaching is definitely a positive thing there. [01:21:11] Speaker B: I will look forward to hearing that you're doing it whenever it does happen, because you'll have a ton of offer to people. [01:21:18] Speaker A: Thank you so much. [01:21:20] Speaker B: And it's funny that it was a wiring example you gave. I was working with someone just yesterday in the garden who had never used copper wire before, and the short version is shocked. It's really hard to use copper wire. And I kind of take for granted. Oh, yeah. That's. There's a lot of little, teeny, tiny tricks that go into what seems like simple manipulations. And so even if the person doing the work is younger, smarter, stronger, if you don't know those tricks, something like wiring is just not straightforward. And all of us have struggled with that. So that's, I know, familiar to pretty much everybody, buddy. [01:21:57] Speaker A: Totally, totally. [01:22:00] Speaker B: And that's been on my mind. Cause I am just wrapping up a second book about bonsai. I don't know if you'd wanted to get into that or not, but I've been hyper conscious about how people learn. And what if I have a limited opportunity to share information with people? You know, what information do I want to choose to share with them about it? [01:22:19] Speaker A: When is your next book coming out? [01:22:22] Speaker B: Looks like April 15, I believe. 2025. So this coming spring. [01:22:26] Speaker A: Nice. Okay. And is it a continuation of any. In any aspects of the first book, or is it totally different? [01:22:36] Speaker B: It's very much a continuation. It's pretty much aimed at the average club member of every last club. The goal for the book is to help people recognize, create, and maintain quality trees. And so it kind of runs through the process of helping them identify their goals for bonsai, help them understand how to build a collection. In other words, what should you buy? How do you decide how you want your trees to look? Some basics about technique and health, and then two full chapters of case studies just to help people apply the techniques that we've been introducing. [01:23:13] Speaker A: Ooh, that's really cool. Very exciting. Awesome. Can't wait to see that. That's. That's so good. [01:23:18] Speaker B: Great. [01:23:19] Speaker A: And I have to compliment you again on just your bonsai goals. You almost make me feel very selfish because I feel like my bonsai goals are, like, I want to have great trees and I want to display in the Pacific bonsai Expo every year. And your goals, like, every time I talk with you and on your website, basically, you're always about, like. Like, expanding the quality of bonsai in the US and teaching people and sharing your passion of bonsai with people. And so it makes me feel very selfish. [01:23:57] Speaker B: Well, here's one way to feel good about it. And this is going to be silly and self referential, and I'm not even sure where it'll land. But without people like you, my goals are meaningless. [01:24:07] Speaker A: That's true. That is true. [01:24:09] Speaker B: So there. You can feel great about that. So if there's anything positive at all in what I'm doing, it really relies on you doing what you're doing for anything that I do to have any meaning. So. So thank you for having the interest that you're having, because that helps me. But it's funny when you mentioned the goal of having a good collection, and I know you've. I've actually wanted to talk to you about that for years on something like a podcast. But it actually never occurred to me until about two years ago to make a nice bonsai garden. The thought didnt even cross my mind after almost, well, actually now over 30 years in bonsai, it took about 29 years like, oh, I guess I could just make a really pretty space for trees. It didnt even occur. Im watching you building your garden. Im watching my friends build their gardens and I just kept running mine, kind of like a nursery. And so theres a lot of ways to have fun with little trees that dont necessarily involve all the accoutrements that goes into the display or care that contributes to how they look on your property for sure. [01:25:14] Speaker A: Do you plan to make a bonsai display area or like bonsai garden that you know, or is that not something that you're interested in doing? Would you say we're. [01:25:28] Speaker B: I don't know what I'm going. What I would have to stop doing to start doing that, that. And so I'm taking baby steps. I have not given myself time to even work on my trees in recent years. Pretty much since I started doing bonsai full time is when I stopped having time to work on my trees, or I should say stopped making time to work on my trees. And so I'm just radically teasing myself with the idea that 2025, I won't be working on the house. I recently wrapped up a two and a half year massive remodel, the house we lived here the entire time. That was its own adventure. Sure, there won't be an expo that I know of next year, even though we'll have to plan the third one, but it won't be the brunt of it won't be next year. It'll be the first time I haven't been writing a book. That's another, you know, three year process, essentially. And so what an opportunity I have to work on trees or do actually the fun part. [01:26:24] Speaker A: Awesome. Yeah. [01:26:26] Speaker B: So I get very excited when I start thinking about what next year might be like. [01:26:31] Speaker A: That's great. That's great. Cool. Well, I did, I guess there's one more thing that I was hoping to chat about regarding the expo. And like anything else you would like to speak about on the expo, I'd love to chat about it. The thing that I wanted to hit on is just the, the future of the photos for the PBE. [01:26:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:26:59] Speaker A: So you guys made them available for the public, is that correct? Or like. [01:27:04] Speaker B: Yes. We actually gave a, or assigned a Creative Commons license to every single image that the professional photographer David Fenton took at the event. And so people can use any of those images for, for profit or nonprofit, really, whatever they want to do, as long as they provide attribution and say, wherever got the photos. So you can make a calendar, you can make a book, you can put them in your newsletter, you can put them on your website, you can use the design for making a t shirt or a tattoo. In other words, all of that we're going to be just continuing to put into the. Into the public for use. And so that's one of the things that we want to do as a nonprofit organization. [01:27:49] Speaker A: I think that's so incredible and, and props to you guys for doing that. And I'm just thinking about, you know, ten years down the road, how. How incredible of a resource that it's going to. It's just going to continue to grow and expand, you know, the quality of what that is, that resource of all those pictures and images. And I envision, like, being, when we're ten shows, just being able to take a look at american bonsai and be able to. I think it'd be so cool if you could, like, you know, search Austin Heitzman stands and see, like, over the last ten years, all the different Austin Heitzman stands. If you want to look at Rocky Mountain junipers or now Tokotake pots, you know, just being able to search and, like, look at all those different things, I think that's really cool. I also kind of, for some reason, like, I'm very fascinated. And part of this is just another kind of selfish ish thing where I'm very interested in having, like, my collection, the trees in my collection, be really good compared to other of the same species within the US. So, like, I really want a few Sierra junipers that are in the, like, top ten within the United States, for example. And I think that it's going to be cool because we can kind of, like, see, you know, hey, what are the top ten Sierra junipers that have been displayed in the Pacific bonsai expo? And maybe through the national show, and we can really get, like, a good scale and figure out what quality looks like and things like that. I'm just excited for the resources of all the images that you guys are allowing the public to use. [01:29:43] Speaker B: I think it could be an incredible educational resource. And I have very mixed feelings about what I'll be feeling like after doing ten of these kind of shows. But I think it'd be awesome if we could do ten of these and then continue to give away things like the images every single time. When I think of how many blog posts I could have made better if I could simply use images from the Kokufu book. Instead, I just flew to Japan and took pictures of the trees myself. And that's what I've published over the years. That's not the most efficient way to write a blog post, is to get on an airplane. But that's the kind of thing we want to make possible. And let alone if you had a big online database of all that, where if we had people tag up everything by the potter, by the stand maker, just, we could see trends, we could identify artistic styles and approaches, and I think it could help other people home in on what they like best and or whom they want to work with in terms of the different craftspeople whose contributions make these things possible, that could be awesome. [01:30:42] Speaker A: I think it'd be really cool if, like, there was a. Some way you could combine images with the national show, too. [01:30:50] Speaker B: Yeah, that'd be awesome. [01:30:51] Speaker A: You know, I'm armchair quarterbacking here and just shouting out crazy ideas, but it'd just be a whole lot more images and we'd get a, you know, for that database. I like the idea of the database. I think that could be so around. [01:31:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Joe Noga has done a fantastic job with the photography for the national show. He's an awesome human being. And of course, Bill's just absolutely outstanding and unbelievable in what he can do. He makes us all look like slackers, and it's a great resource. I pretty much recommend everyone who's interested to get those show books from the US national. I'm excited for the next one. Show number nine is coming up next year. [01:31:29] Speaker A: Absolutely. Absolutely. [01:31:30] Speaker B: There. [01:31:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Not driving again, though. [01:31:36] Speaker B: No, I've just gotten to the point where driving is just physically hard for me, and so I'd happily coordinate the drive if someone wants to do it. We actually spent a year trying to get someone to drive and I could not do it, but I would happily coordinate all the trees leaving from the west coast for New York. I just don't know that I can physically do the drive. It's hard on my schedule and on my body, and so I would love it. [01:31:57] Speaker A: Totally. [01:31:58] Speaker B: Someone could. Could step up and do that. That'd be really exciting. [01:32:02] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah, no, it's. It's just so far. [01:32:07] Speaker B: Well, it's one reason why the expo exists. I very much believe that the country will ultimately be stronger if we can have a solid east coast show, maybe a southern show, maybe a Midwest show, and then you know, a western show. I think there's a lot to be said for building up those individual communities rather than just having massive carbon footprints on moving trees around. [01:32:29] Speaker A: 100%. 100%. Completely agree. Nice. Well, is there any other, like, expo related things that you would like to mention, or did we, any topics that you wanted to hit on expo related? [01:32:43] Speaker B: Those are the big expo ones, just the, you know, the big takeaways. We're excited. Please come. If you're thinking about it, please give us any kind of support by, you know, volunteering, getting a t shirt, a book, whatever it happens to be. And then when you come, have fun and support the vendors, take notes on what you do and don't like, you know, give us feedback afterwards and meet people. Like, talk to the people who make these amazing trees. That's. That's kind of where the excitement's at, making connections, making friends. Anyone who's been to an expo or a national show will tell you that's kind of where the fun's at, is the people you meet, and they're what end up forging the memories we take away. Way. [01:33:24] Speaker A: Very nice. Well said. And I hope we are giving some people out there, maybe some really bad fomo right now. And, uh, you definitely do not want to miss this. I'm so pumped for it. Like, I can't. I can't even wait. It's a thing I've been looking forward to all year. [01:33:41] Speaker B: You're going to be tickled by some of the trees that show up there. There'll be a few fun ones. [01:33:45] Speaker A: Oh, man. So stoked. So stoked. Well, I did have random questions, but, you know, I want to be respectful of your time. Very, very busy man. I don't want you to be taken away from the expo or writing books or your blog or your store. [01:34:01] Speaker B: Oh, that's right. I've got a blog post. Yes. I'd say hit me with it. This is a treat for me to be able to catch up with you. So this is super fun. [01:34:08] Speaker A: Awesome. Well, I kind of just have a bunch of random, random questions for you, if that's okay. They're more tree related. Just generally speaking. [01:34:15] Speaker B: Speaking. [01:34:17] Speaker A: And some just things I've been thinking about. What shade cloth percentage are you using right now? [01:34:23] Speaker B: What did I do this year? I've used 30 and 40. I think this year I'm using 30. [01:34:28] Speaker A: 30? Okay. I'm using 32. I'm thinking I'm going to go 40. [01:34:33] Speaker B: Next year, but I used 40 and it kept things too wet. I would say what I really want is a convertible system where I can take it on and off, day to day, day, and or use different ones. And so when I build a permanent structure, I want to be able to take it off on a cloudy day, pull it out on a hot day, and if it gets crazy hot, then I'd go up to 40. But I used 40 before. A couple things, appreciated it, but mostly it kept things too wet and too dark. [01:35:00] Speaker A: Well, if you do create some type of retractable shade cloth structure, I mean, I think that's the ultimate right there. I'm going to. I think I'm going to have an area where I have have 40 in an area where I have 50. Although now you're making me second guess myself. And I may go 30 and 50, I'm not sure. [01:35:18] Speaker B: Or 20 and 40. Yeah, I would want to go light, because I know you grow your redwoods in shade. I can still grow them in full sun. And I should an interesting chat with Ryan Neal about whether or not to grow redwoods in sun or shade. There's kind of different approaches about that. Yeah, it's interesting. [01:35:35] Speaker A: I would assume he's full sun. [01:35:38] Speaker B: Yeah, he likes doing redwoods in the sun, and I told him I like doing the same thing I've done. Both. Redwoods get pretty in the shade, but they also grow looser in the shade. [01:35:49] Speaker A: Yes. And, you know, I think the reason I switched over to shade was because I got a little bit of sunburn one year, and then I was actually talking to Eric Schrader, and he's like, hey, try them in the shade. And I did, and I just haven't changed since. They seem to be growing fine, but I only have 30%. [01:36:13] Speaker B: The techniques you use will impact whether or not they get sunburned. And that's where it gets a little more complicated, is whenever you expose shaded foliage to the sun on redwoods, they're very apt to get sunburn, and you just. You're stuck with those burn needles for another year or two until they fall away. So, depending on how full you're keeping your trees, when you think of Ryan Neal's technique for redwood redwoods, totally natural to want to keep them the sun. Interestingly, I find watering easier when they're in the sun than when they're in the shade. It's like it kind of makes them tougher. They're super thirsty, but if you're watering all the time, it's actually very easy to keep them healthy, and they grow even faster than when they're in the shade. Yeah, shade also is different, whether it's warm shade or cool shade. So I'd never compare my results to someone's garden who has triple digits in summer. Growing redwoods in the shade, that makes all kinds of sense, but I live it super mild. And so it. The intensity of the sun is a different variable without the heat to accompany it. [01:37:12] Speaker A: Absolutely. [01:37:13] Speaker B: So it's an interesting topic with that. But yeah, shake cloths. Interesting. I just need to get more flexibility because some years we have summer, some years we don't. We didn't have summer. This year we had a good spring, we had no winter, and we more or less had no summer. The only heat we've had has been mild, and we're having it right now. [01:37:30] Speaker A: You know, one thing I was wondering about, in Japan, a lot of bonsai nurseries, when they have shade cloth and then on the edges they have like this tinsely stuff that hangs down and kind of like blows in the wind. Do you know anything about that? Like what would, what the benefits would be over just putting shade cloth there and then like, why is it is that just sold in Japan? And why don't we not see it here? [01:37:56] Speaker B: You know, that'd be a good question for someone that has that there. I know exactly what you're talking about. And I don't know if it's just old, frayed. I mean, a shade cloth, it literally could be as simple as that. Or if it's just to cut down a little bit on the sun as it pokes around the edge. I know in my garden I don't have sides on my shade cloth typically, but the side that gets the afternoon sun, I wish I did have some little flowing, stringy things hanging down, you know, cut away a little bit of that light, intent density. [01:38:24] Speaker A: Gotcha, gotcha. [01:38:25] Speaker B: But if I were to totally enclose my shade cloth, like someone I would, like, I would recommend to someone who lives where it gets crazy hot, I would have massive, even more fungus problems. And I would just never water anything because it would be not enough movement of air, not enough light, not enough dry air coming in. [01:38:45] Speaker A: Gotcha, gotcha. I put shade cloth on the sides of mine, but I got like custodial cut. And so it's like stands maybe three inches above my head and so it blocks most of the light out. But then I also have pretty high benches or pedestals. So that's kind of how I set my stuff up. But I'm always curious about the danglies, you know? Yeah, I'll have to ask. [01:39:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I'll have to look into that next time I'm at a garden in Japan. I'm always there in winter, so I never see him. But if I am there and I see him, I will. I will have to ask now I. [01:39:22] Speaker A: Feel like I see it all the time. Like in photos, I don't know. Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. You know, I was hoping to pick your brain on oaks a little bit, if that's okay. You know, I noticed you have cork oak in your collection. You have coast live oak. Just any general tips you have for individuals, like in terms of, like, soil mixed, any, any general trends that you've seen with oaks. I love oaks. [01:39:52] Speaker B: I don't know about you, I'm a huge fan of oaks, and I'm planning on growing more and more of them. It's the two species I've been collecting the most of in recent years have been oaks and redwoods. Actually, I'm finally getting close to the stage of life where I'm mature enough to grow things that do well where I live, as opposed to growing what I want to grow. [01:40:10] Speaker A: That's smart. [01:40:11] Speaker B: Much easier said than done. I will say, um, some things about oaks other than that they're fantastic. And I think a lot more people should be growing oaks because I think they do well just about everywhere with the right care. Um, I'll tell you a few things I haven't figured out about oaks, um, and that I find kind of fascinating. The cork oaks seem pretty straightforward. Live California live oak, little bit less straightforward. And one interesting thing about the live oaks is, is it seems like they're either in go mode or in not go mode. And it's not always obvious what's going to put them into grow mode as opposed to just kind of hang out mode. Interesting going. So one concrete thing I have learned is, interestingly, oaks, and specifically live oaks, somehow turn the soil into concrete. Have you noticed that? [01:41:09] Speaker A: Yes, I have. [01:41:11] Speaker B: Yes. I don't know what's totally going on, but it's like the roots, something is going on in the soil where it creates this brick like environment where drainage is pretty awful. And I tend to find that going harder on the roots is more likely to make the tree healthy than not going harder on the roots. And I shouldn't say going hard on cutting the roots, but going hard on the root ball, digging out that nasty soil to make sure there's good drainage and good aeration in there. [01:41:37] Speaker A: Nice. Do you go like an akadama mix? [01:41:44] Speaker B: I've used a bunch of different percentages of akodama but in general, I think soil mix has far more to do with people's climate, necessarily, than with a species, necessarily. And so any comments I make about that would, it might be helpful for you, but it wouldn't be helpful for 90% of the people listening, because it'll be warmer where they live in. So summer makes sense. And whether people go really high or really low on nakodama tends to be more effective. And same with particle size. It's more a factor of how frequently you're watering. Oaks do really well in high pumice mixes. And if you want to take a sick tree and make it healthy, just get rid of a ton of the gunk in the soil, put it in a fairly high pumice mix, water it a lot, and it'll do absolutely fantastic. But when the roots are staying too wet and the wet dry cycle starts slowing down, watch out, it's just going to stop growing and not do as well. And you'll be ready for another repot. So for cork oaks, it might mean repotting every two years. It might be the same for live oaks where I live. That's one of the things I'm trying to answer right now. [01:42:48] Speaker A: Nice. Nice. Yeah. I think in Europe, I've heard that they use kanuma mixes, or maybe certain people, people in Europe use kanuma mixes for cork oak. I don't know what that's about or if that is, you know, actually helps or not. But I've tried it with and without. [01:43:08] Speaker B: And did not, over time, see a big difference. When you think about the physical object of Kanama, there's only about three things it could possibly do for the soil. It can provide slight acidity. And there's a lot of ways to provide acidity. It could provide some, you know, micronutrients that are kind of leaching out of the thing. No idea whether or not that's making a difference. Even if it did, there could be other ways, theoretically, of delivering that. And then the third would be the behavior as a particle, its ability to retain water, release water, and. And break down or not break down over time. And so I don't know what if, or even if there's a hypothesis as to which, if any of those three things are making a difference in the mix. But in my limited meeting for smallish numbers of years, I've not seen differences with or without using it in the soil. [01:43:58] Speaker A: Gotcha. Gotcha. You know, Peter kind of pointed out something interesting, and I think a mistake that I was making with coast live oak is that I was underwatering a bit. And I think this also comes down to where you live specifically. [01:44:13] Speaker B: Right. [01:44:13] Speaker A: If you're in the Pacific Northwest big. [01:44:14] Speaker B: Time, where you live. [01:44:16] Speaker A: Yeah, it's raining all the time, whereas where I'm at, the humidity is kind of low and it's much drier. We don't get rain very often. But what Peter pointed out to me was like, the new, new growth. So like a shoot that is newly grew on a coast live oak, every once in a while I'd get like a little bit of wilt on it. And even though like I watered not too long ago, it seemed like to me. And so this year I've just upped the amount of water that I've been giving the oaks. And they seem to have been responding very positively, which is just different and interesting and all credit to Peter there. [01:44:59] Speaker B: So all credit to Peter. When the tree's wilting, it's not wet enough. We all know this. So you had the sign on that one. And oaks are one of the great species that when you have young shoots, boy, do they let you know about it when they don't have enough water. And I think most people don't read the signs that look, a healthy cork oak or live oak that has new shoots on it will appreciate a ton of water. You will find that pouring a lot of water on a tree that's not growing, that has poor soil or good soil, that's all been clogged up. I've never seen that help the health of the tree. Maybe if it were super hot where I live, but where the weather is mild. I've never seen a case where watering a wet tree is going to do any good for it. And so I'd say yes, and there's going to be some other factors there. Depending on where you live. [01:45:49] Speaker A: 100%, 100%. [01:45:51] Speaker B: If you've got new growth and it's draining well, then yeah, you can water oaks a lot. It's. But watch out. An interesting one, I had a tree that dried out a lot faster than I expected, and I got to where I would water it and see that it was dry just 2 hours later. I looked with my eyes, saw that the water was draining down below the surface, and then it would be bone, bone dry just 2 hours later. And I just scratched my head again and again about it. You know what was happening. The root ball kind of congealed differently in different parts of the root ball. So 90% of the water was all flowing down one corner of the root ball, and 90% of the root ball was bone dry because as the roots kind of start clogging up the soil and the akadama starts breaking down, water does not percolate evenly through that whole root ball. I perforated the root ball throughout the entire thing. And then I noticed that the tree not only did it never dry out, not only did it not wilt, but I could go two or three days between waterings and it was growing just as healthy. So I don't think that's the case most of the time. But it's been interesting to see that that's one of the ones that I have to watch out for the most. Is water appropriately, the answer is rarely more and less. It's more like what's your tree? What signs are you getting? Investigate a little bit and then kind of water accordingly. [01:47:13] Speaker A: You're 100% correct there. And what I stated was very generalized, but just. [01:47:19] Speaker B: And it's probably true for most growers. It's actually yours is probably the more helpful to most people. I just find that in living in a place that's not most people's weather, I have to. It's made me really qualify how I talk about things or how I trick, how I write about it. [01:47:35] Speaker A: For sure, 100% yes. I also am field growing oaks, coast live oaks, which is like the most ridiculous thing ever. Have 15 on my property here in Napomo. But I. Several. Well I think the oldest ones are probably seven years now or something like that. And I did like the acorn seedling cuttings to get some nice nabari. But the vision that I have in my mind and the reason that I'm field growing. And when I say field growing, I started them. So the last six years they've been in containers and then I just put them into the field because they actually have nice Nabari now. And I just want it's thickening time. But I like the idea of an oak coast live oak with nice nabari in a natural oak style where there's lots of multiple trunks as opposed to just one trunk. And the branches are going like up and out and down. So that's kind of what I'm doing there. But it seems so silly. [01:48:43] Speaker B: I was going to ask what your goal was and I'm so happy to hear it. Because oaks and other species like redwood, you can shape them like bonsai, or you can shape them like Oakland. And I would love to see more multi trunk oaks and oaks that look like oaks. I think if you have a trunk that makes a perfect informal upright that you should make an informal upright style, and then try to play up the characteristics of the species, which are primarily undulating branches. And that's all based on kind of the angles at which the leaves emerge from radially from the shoots. But, boy, will it be fun when we see more oak shaped oaks. Think. I don't know of a single example of great oak shaped oaks that we can kind of share with people. I've got one I'm working on. It's years out at this point. [01:49:31] Speaker A: Nice, nice. Very cool. Yeah, I 100% there with you. Oak shaped, oak shaped oaks. Say that ten times fast. [01:49:40] Speaker B: Oak shaped oak. Yep. I've got a cork oak that I'm hoping to get in the expo possibly two years from now and another one four years from now. So I've got a couple corks in the works, and, gosh, the live oaks will actually, I've got a live oak that could be in as soon also two to four years. I have one or two live oaks as well, so I've got a couple that I'm hoping to be able to show in some relatively soonish timeframe. [01:50:06] Speaker A: Nice. Yeah, I've. I've seen some pictures that you've posted, and they look pretty stunning. So some pretty thick trunks you got there. I like it. [01:50:16] Speaker B: Yeah. That's actually one point to make about oaks is, and specifically cork oaks, the possibly the single most apically dominant species I've ever worked with. If you want to reflect the thickness of the trunk and the branches, you've really got to go hard on the top of the tree to let those lower branches run, or you're just never going to have a branch with character or even a living branch. In extreme cases, they are just really radically, apically dominant. I'd say to everyone, be creative in how you. You interpret that statement, but anything you can do to get the size out of those lower branches before doing anything else, you're just not going to have a chance to do that a second time without cutting everything off. If there is a shortcut, please let us know. But I've. I've yet to see one, for sure. [01:51:04] Speaker A: Yeah, Peter's really big on developing the lower branches, as you know. And, uh, one thing we've been doing is when we put a tree in a box, we will straight up put another board onto the box that just goes completely vertical, and then we'll tie the branch on. So it's like, orienting upward so you don't have to, like, wire it and then unwire it and then wire it and unwire it. Just like, tie it up so that it's, it's facing upwards and, uh, so that it grows nice and strong and thickens for you. [01:51:36] Speaker B: So I use guy wires and I just literally grab a branch and point, pull it until it's pointing upwards. [01:51:42] Speaker A: That's, that works. [01:51:43] Speaker B: Anything to make it not go out. It just makes it more convenient to walk around it, for sure. [01:51:50] Speaker A: One thing I'm curious about oaks is I feel like we have not, like, I haven't seen a lot of grafting techniques with oak, and I'm very interested in that. So the only thing that I've heard is I heard that julian Tsai thread grafted a coast live oak, and I think he only did one. I. Sorry, julian, if I'm wrong here, but I heard it was successful. So I hear that they can thread graph, but, like, you don't hear about people, you know, scion or thread or approach grafting oaks, and I think that it could help us develop them. Like, I have a tree that I collected and it's got three nice roots, like surface roots, but it could really use more. And I would love to approach craft it, but I'm just scared to, to attempt it, you know, because I, I don't know if it works or not. Any thoughts on, on grafting? You think scion grafting would work with oaks? [01:52:48] Speaker B: What you just told me is, as much as I know about grafting oaks, boy, I don't know the first thing about it, but using a little four inch whip and thread, grafting it, leaving the roots sticking out near the base and have, you know, the top stick out the backside somewhere, that seems like an eminently doable kind of thing for grow so fast. You're going to know within a pretty short amount of time if it's going to work or not. But I hadn't thought of that. Doing that with the roots, I think that could be a really good use of the technique. [01:53:17] Speaker A: Yeah. The other thing that I like to think about with oaks is, so there are some varieties of scrub oak that grow around here that have like, these cute little leaves that are probably like, I don't know, maybe a third to half the size of coast live oak leaf. Yep. And I'm like, man, if you grafted that foliage onto like a little, you know, coast live oak trunk, like, you would have a really, you could make like a killer little shohin or small medium sized trees. It, that could just, I think, open up a lot if, if you could graft it, but I have no idea. And it's a lot of effort, but I may want to try that in the future. [01:54:02] Speaker B: That's super easy to experiment with. I would just try a bunch of techniques and see for small trees. I think that makes all kinds of sense in general for, you know, medium and bigger trees it should be totally fine. But um, if you're going for a different look and or really small trees, oaks are challenging at the shohin level. I've worked on a bunch over the years and not super straightforward. You just kind of do what you can with it. They just kind of have a different rough look to them. But I, I do have a nice shohin trunk that I want to work with and so that would be, for instance, a great candidate. [01:54:33] Speaker A: Very nice. Yeah. [01:54:35] Speaker B: You should check out, I like the scrub oak. I just want to see some scrub oak bonsai too. Because I keep wanting to believe that there's a ton of great trees waiting to be collected out in the foothills somewhere. But I haven't really seen that happen yet. I've seen very few scrub oaks come out so far. [01:54:49] Speaker A: That's true. I haven't seen very many either. They're so great species for bonsai at least. I think like I haven't taken care of one personally. [01:54:59] Speaker B: But the one thing I'm probably most excited about oaks and anything is I think we have barely scratched the surface of what we can do with branch density and structure on oaks. I think we could do the kind of work you'd expect to see on a really mature eliagnus or a lot of the broadleaf evergreens in Japan where you can see those kind of finger like branches at the base of the pads and the green up on top. That does such a good job of conveying both artistic design as well as age in the branch structure. I would just love to see more of that. [01:55:29] Speaker A: Very cool. Very cool. Awesome. Well, you know, I think on my list of questions that is about most of them only, like one more super random question for me. Did the cement air layering, has, has that gone well and are you going to keep doing that technique? [01:55:54] Speaker B: It's a good question. There's so many different ways to skin that cat, I think. I don't even know who to credit originally with that. I know Andrew had mentioned that now it done it, but I'd actually been reading about it for years. Andrea Murugioli's maple book is actually where I probably first saw the idea, if not some japanese magazine. So it's been around, totally usable in good tech technique. I'd say it worked just fine. I did two large horn beams, and it seemed to work great in both cases. And so if I were working with a large enough tree, it's. It's a. It's kind of cool that it creates a barrier exactly where you want, that does. That's not going to let root growth escape from one end into the other. And so, uh, the removal process was really hilarious and fun. And so, yeah, I'd definitely be down for trying it again. [01:56:49] Speaker A: Was the removal process a lot of work? Like, very gritty, hard work? [01:56:55] Speaker B: It's interesting. It was a little easier because you're either working in the safe zone or the be careful zone. The top is all perfectly arranged, and you've got this wonderful cement barrier letting you do whatever you want below it. And so we were just able to carve away all of the soil very, very quickly. Saws and just no hesitation sawzalling with no hesitation whatsoever to cut anything large out of the way. And then when you're all done with that and have a small stub, a few taps from a, you know, three pound sledge, and it just literally crumbled right away, leaving kind of a perfect root base. It was better than expected. What I would have done differently is used root hormone because I used zero the first year, which was just out of curiosity to check. And, uh, shocker, it didn't do half as well. So I reopened the wound a year later, wasn't even careful about it, just put a whole bunch of hormone in there. And after the second year, they looked pretty good, so I was able to remove them. The trees have been healthy all year. They've grown a year now since separation, and they held their foliage. They didn't brown out at all, but I didn't see a lot of new growth. And so I'll be curious if the tree was investing its resources in roots. Um, I was planning to leave them two, three or so. I did. No pruning on these trees all year. They're just like these big, giant horn beam with no new shoots on them for the most part. So ask me again, uh, in a year, and then I'll have a much better idea of how they respond, and. And then we'll go from there. But will do super, super fun to try. [01:58:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Awesome. I would like to try it. [01:58:28] Speaker B: It looked. [01:58:28] Speaker A: It's just a fun and funny technique to me, so I would. I would very much like to try it. And it. It seems very, very logical. And, like, it's great that you get the cement so that the roots will all jut out and run laterally and the barrier. So that's fantastic. I wonder if Oaks air layer well. Do you know the answer that JT. [01:58:50] Speaker B: Has suggested that they do air layer? Well, haven't done it, but he has suggested they do well. [01:58:56] Speaker A: Nice. [01:58:56] Speaker B: I know in general, air layers work better when you've got good SAP flow through the area. And often when we've got Oaks that would benefit from layer, it's because we have large sections that don't have live routes. And so I would not think of that as. As good a candidate if that were the case. [01:59:11] Speaker A: Makes sense. Makes sense. Cool. Cool. Awesome. Well, I think that's. That's about all that that I got. Was there anything else you wanted to chat about or any other things you wanted to discuss? [01:59:29] Speaker B: Nothing big that comes to mind. We hit a lot of the big ones. You know, I mentioned that we're putting on a big show in a couple months, so come to that, I mentioned that I've got a new book coming out next year. It's called Bonsai or the essential Bonsai book, and I'm very, very excited about that. I'll probably be saying a lot more about that in the coming months. Like, the cover's all done. I'm actually proofing the last draft right now before it kind of goes out to print. And I, um. That's been a huge chunk of work. And since really the next focus is to be able to spend more time on trees, that'll be just more opportunity to see what does it look like when I get as much time as I want to work on trees and kind of see what comes with that. [02:00:10] Speaker A: Awesome, awesome, man. Well, hey, thank you so, so much for jumping on here. And a much bigger thank you for everything that you do for the boneslide community. I can't believe that you're putting on the Pacific bonsai expo for the second time now. Just a massive, massive thank you to you, Eric, Andrew, and everyone else that has helped there. But, you know, it's just so incredible to see it go from these, like, sidewalk or, excuse me, parking, parking area conversations to actually coming to fruition and, like, for the second year, it's so cool. And I just am so appreciative and I think everybody in the bonsai community is very appreciative and so, like, it's just, it's really incredible, man. Thank you so, so much. Great work. [02:01:07] Speaker B: I appreciate that. It's funny. What I get excited about is really the goal of the expo is to provide a parking lot in which other people can have that conversation, because what I'm excited about is seeing what other shows, events, businesses, who knows what's going to grow out of the connections and experiences that people are having at the show. So that's going to be my new talking point, is we're providing people with a parking lot. And so, hell, yeah. Thank you for nice. We're just running a whole big show so people can hang out in the parking lot. [02:01:40] Speaker A: Awesome. All right, well, hey, thank you so much, Jonas. Really appreciate it. If I can help with anything, just let me know.