#31 Julian Tsai, Cesar Ordoñez and Adam Toth

[00:00:00] Speaker A: To baby trees. [00:00:11] Speaker B: The Black Pondo podcast. [00:00:18] Speaker C: The Black Ponda Podcast. [00:00:24] Speaker D: Yeah. Hey, how's it going, everyone? My name is Adam Koh. You can find me on [email protected]. i also have been starting and uploading YouTube videos and the name of my YouTube channel is @Bonsai. And I've been, you know, I studied in Japan for a little over three years and I've been back for almost three years now. [00:00:55] Speaker A: And. [00:00:57] Speaker D: I am in the Bay Area, Northern California on the west coast. And let's see the last year. Well, you know, I just had my first kid and so a lot of my time has been going towards that and I'm just kind of getting back into the swing of things with work and stuff. So it's been very busy over here. But yeah, it's been great. I love it. [00:01:28] Speaker C: That's awesome. And I want to ask you more about that in a sec. Why don't we just do super brief intros and then let's dive into life updates and bonsai updates, if that's cool. Also love your YouTube videos. They have been absolutely phenomenal. Great work with those, Adam. [00:01:45] Speaker A: Great. [00:01:46] Speaker D: Thank you. [00:01:46] Speaker A: Appreciate it. [00:01:47] Speaker B: Cool. [00:01:47] Speaker C: Julian, you want to go next? [00:01:50] Speaker A: Yeah. So I'm based out here in Los Angeles. Pre Covid I was only in Japan for two years and came back initially wasn't doing bonsai work full time, but I was taking some work on the side and working with two professionals mainly, which was like Peter T. And John Wong. And then in 2022, I've kind of committed to doing bonsai full time in the last, I guess three years now doing my bonsai work and business. Can't complain too much. It's been busy and just kind of figuring it out as I go. I guess I'll just keep it pretty simple, but people can find me either on my Instagram, it's B O N T S A I underscore. And I have a website, it's justbonsai.com actually I did start a YouTube channel recently also and just kind of dabbling and figuring that out. But it's the same as my website, Just Bonsai. [00:03:07] Speaker C: Awesome, awesome. Love it. Two YouTube channels. Very nice. Cool. Cesar, you want to go next? [00:03:16] Speaker B: Yo. So my name is Cesar originally Cesar Bonsai, if you know me, which means I'm in central California. So I'm in the middle of Adam and Julian. And yeah, I have not gone to Japan. Unlike them, I'm Cali grown inside and out and I just been studying with different professionals here and there, but mainly Stuck with. I've been sticking with Peter T. For the past. It's been more than three years, so time flies. And yeah, I just love. I just love Bonsai and I love everything about it. And just like these two guys, I used to have a YouTube channel. I mean, I still do. I don't make videos anymore, at least not as frequently because it's a lot more time than I have and my kids aren't. My videos aren't for kids, you know, so it's, it's, it's. I keep it to a minimum of uploads. But yeah, we out here, you know, saying. And I'm blessed to be out here and especially here, the podcast with not only you, better Adam and Julian, both these guys, my homies. And that's not talking shit. That's not just talking through the podcast. They truly my homies. I've known him for a while. Matter of fact, I met Adam. Actually, this was supposed to be brief, right? But I met Adam. [00:04:41] Speaker C: No, no, keep going. Yeah. I was gonna ask how you guys. [00:04:43] Speaker B: Know each other, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, Adam, but it was around, I want to say, like the month or two months that you came back from Japan. It was a very early on when he came back. I met him at Jonas's. And dude, honestly, bro, I don't think I've ever told Adam this personally, but I've told plenty of people and I'll let it out right now. He's definitely one of the persons that pushed me to do this full time. You know, he definitely kind of opened up my eyes to what could be done or what I could do. And yeah, so for sure, I fucking. I'm blessed to have met him so early on in his. In his United States career, you could say, or whatever. And Julian, I met him for a long time. We'll leave that. We'll leave the first time we met for another day because it wasn't as jolly as you would think. But after that we met. [00:05:35] Speaker C: Wait, I want to hear this story now. [00:05:39] Speaker B: It was nothing bad, but when I first heard about Julian, I remember I went to Santa Nella, right? And I saw him from far. Me being the dude that I was, I. I had to hit him up, you know, just. Just as in not to sound rude or anything. You know, there's a lot of older people in. In Bonsai, so it was cool to see somebody else that was younger, you know. So when I saw him, I remember I wanted to go say what's up to him. And dude, I remember this dude just did not want to talk to me or some shit, because I was sitting there standing next to him, just asking questions, and Julian's just looking forward, like he was just trying to get out of there, you feel me? And I. I remember I left that day, and I'm like, whoa, what the hell, bro? But then I really met him at Peters, right when I started going to Peters at. Julian started going there and. And what it was. I feel like I was. I was too real for him, you feel? He didn't know how to react, you know what I'm saying? He. He was kind of stuck there. So it took him. [00:06:37] Speaker D: It took him a couple days, bro. [00:06:38] Speaker B: It took him a couple times seeing him at Peters to kind of get the vibe for me, I guess, and he kind of realized who I was. And, dude, we've been friends for a long time now, bro. Julian's. Well, both of these dudes is real dudes, for real. [00:06:52] Speaker C: Damn. I didn't know Julian Big dogged you. [00:06:59] Speaker B: Man. [00:07:00] Speaker A: I can't. Honestly, I can't even remember the interaction was this. Like, when I was. I think the first time I went to Sanela, I was doing a demo, right? And it was actually, I think, like, Peter provided the demo. Tree. Is this Monterey or pygmy cypress? And then. Yeah, I can't remember, but I mean, yeah, it could have went down like that. I was just locking in and just ignoring people and stuff. [00:07:31] Speaker B: Yeah, he was definitely. [00:07:34] Speaker C: Oh, man, I didn't know Julian big dog people. But now I know. That's super funny because Julian is just like the. The biggest sweetheart ever. Such a nice guy. Such a good guy. [00:07:50] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, 100%. I think that's what it was. I kind of just threw him off. He didn't know how to handle all this realness, you feel me? He was just kind of. Just. [00:08:01] Speaker C: For sure. For sure. Cool. [00:08:04] Speaker D: Nah, Cesar, I think, you know, I think. I think you bring a lot of fun energy, and I think I can speak for almost everyone, that everyone is excited to have you in the community and as a. Starting to become a more, you know, bigger and bigger presence, especially in California. But hopefully you will continue and spread your little olive seeds all over the place. [00:08:30] Speaker B: Hell, yeah, bro. That I appreciate. That means a lot. For real. And, I mean, I'm not doing any special, bro. We just out here trying to survive. You feel me? Yep. [00:08:39] Speaker C: Yeah. No, I would definitely agree with you there, Adam Caesar. You just have an incredible personality, man. Like, everybody that you are around, they like you instantly. And you just have, like, the. The most positive, energetic vibe going on, and it's just. It's really fun to be around you. If anyone should have a podcast, I feel like it should be you, and I would love to see you start one, because it would be absolutely incredible, and I would listen to every second of it. [00:09:10] Speaker D: Very contagious personality, you know, everyone just happy to be around Cesar. [00:09:15] Speaker B: Hey, I'm happy to be around everybody, too, bro. [00:09:18] Speaker D: And that's f. Oh, yeah. [00:09:22] Speaker C: Awesome. Well, hey, I would love to get just a. [00:09:25] Speaker B: A. [00:09:25] Speaker C: A life update from all of you both. Kind of personal life kind of kind of thing. And then also bonsai wise, what's been going on? Caesar, do you want to start this time? [00:09:38] Speaker B: I'm down. What was the question? [00:09:48] Speaker C: So tell us what's been going on in your. In your life recently. Okay, you're just telling us about. Yeah, subwoofers. [00:09:55] Speaker B: Yeah, we'll leave that out. In terms of, I guess, business wise or bonsai wise, I just. I mean, I've been thankfully, you know, I've been getting a lot of people hitting me up and stuff, so I'm kind of need to get into the. The digging part of it all. So I've been kind of digging a lot recently because I need to restock my. My benches and stuff. One of the biggest things I'm doing right now, I think, and I'm pretty stoked for, is I got this RO system that I'm hooking up. But so I recently moved into this property where I have my trees. It was a. It's about like a year and a half, I think, two years. And as you would imagine, with a house and. Or, yeah, a house and plumbing that was built in freaking 1980 or 90. And I didn't really think about this because, you know, I never had a nursery or a garden, whatever. So, obviously, once you're in a bonsai, you think a lot about the water. So first thing I did was obviously think about getting this water softener and getting this RO system going, because it has just a lot of calcium build up on my trees, on my leaves and everything. But anyways, I'm literally in the middle of that, or I'm almost done setting that up, but as I'm in the middle of doing that, I come to realize that it seems like every single pipe or. Yeah, that comes from. From the well and the pump and everything, everything is just super rusted. So here and there, I'll get a little bit of rust in my water. So literally, as we speak, I took off or we took off a couple of the pipes already, so I'm gonna put all brand new piping because that's just probably the best way to go, you know, so it's a headache. But I'm also, I mean, I'm excited as hell because that just gives me more. More opportunity to have and keep better trees and them be happy with the water, you know. So that's basically what I'm on at the moment besides, like I said, digging up olives because I just need to keep digging them, you know, I. I keep looking everywhere I go and one of these. [00:12:10] Speaker D: Are you digging up anything else? What else are you on the looking out for? [00:12:13] Speaker B: What else are you digging up in on the hunt? Nothing. But I'm on the hunt as to find. I got a couple, I got a couple homies that live out in the foothills. So I'm trying to see if I could take a little stroll and go look for some oaks here and there. I know they're out there. I just never have looked for them. So I'm definitely. That's. That's my goal this, this fall, this winter is to go out in the foothills, which like, for those that don't know, I'm 30 minutes to 45 minutes from Sequoia National Forest. Which is funny because I, I seen. I believe that Julian just went to Sequoia National Forest and didn't visit me, but that's another story. [00:12:52] Speaker C: Yeah, he was big dogging you again. [00:12:54] Speaker A: You're right. [00:12:55] Speaker B: Yeah. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I definitely want to get into. To maybe looking up some oaks or, or see what I could. What else I could find out here in the foothills. Cuz I know there's stuff I just. I've been so in. Into the olives that I literally haven't. Haven't actually looked. [00:13:11] Speaker C: I think you could sell a whole lot of oaks. I. I feel like there's a lot of interest for oaks. Like, it's interesting, especially in California. You talk to anybody. I feel like they, they love oaks. Like, I, I don't. [00:13:23] Speaker D: I don't know. [00:13:24] Speaker C: Adam, do you like oaks? Yeah. You like oaks? [00:13:27] Speaker D: Yeah. I feel like if you, you know, if you're from California, you have to have a redwood and you have to have an oak. [00:13:34] Speaker C: Definitely. [00:13:35] Speaker A: Yeah. There's. There's something to be also said just using like the, the native species that already grow like reasonably strong and like as like my, My work schedules become like busier and more variable. I'm traveling and stuff and, and it's harder to control stuff like Care and watering. I mean, the stuff that's native and hearty, it. It tolerates all these variations. And then like my fancy maple cultivars and other stuff, the leaves will get messed up. A heat wave happens when I'm gone and. And it. Yeah, it just sucks. And now more I'm thinking, I'm like, ah, just stick with the stuff that grows well, like oaks, junipers, stuff redwood, stuff like that. [00:14:23] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. Would 100% agree with that. I am a big proponent of growing what work what grows well around you. And I agree. Everyone should have an oak and a redwood in their collection if they live in California. We have a good representative or representation of California on here. We got Adam from NorCal, Julian from SoCal. I'm from the Central Coast, Caesar's from the Central Valley. [00:14:49] Speaker A: Yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah, I didn't think of that. Yeah. [00:14:53] Speaker B: Yes, sir, representing out here. [00:14:58] Speaker C: Nice. Cesar, how many olives are you collecting on like a weekly basis or a monthly basis? [00:15:06] Speaker B: Well, it depends. Every week is definitely not the same, but I. But just kind of like, I guess like an estimate, I would say like maybe 50 a week, maybe. [00:15:16] Speaker A: Oh, damn. Wow. Jeez. [00:15:18] Speaker C: Yeah, that's insane. [00:15:20] Speaker B: But like I said, it's not every week. [00:15:22] Speaker C: Yeah. And are you digging most of these yourselves or is it. [00:15:28] Speaker B: No, unless I actually do something and I see one. Yes. But, dude, I think I. Whoever heard the podcast with me and Jonas a year ago? Since then, then, it's been exclusively my dad digging up olives for me because we. We now we have a. A packed deal to where I pay him for his time and I get olives. Yeah. [00:15:52] Speaker C: Cool. [00:15:53] Speaker B: Outsourcing food chain. I don't know about that, but I'm. I'm. I'm glad and happy that I'm able to. To do something where I'm able to spend time with my dad, not on some sad shit, you know what I mean? But I mean, before this is like, we didn't really have, you know, I mean, so it's like now we got something to. Or like if there's like a big olive and he needs my help, you know, he called me up, we're riding together. And it's cool because before that, we didn't really mob together or anything like that, you know? So it's kind of pretty cool that this kind of brought us together anyway, you know? [00:16:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:26] Speaker C: That's awesome. [00:16:27] Speaker D: That's nice. [00:16:28] Speaker C: Is he into bonsai as well, would you say? [00:16:32] Speaker B: Yes and no. Like, now he understands it for sure. And then once you Know in a blue moon, he'll send me a picture or something you saw. So he, he definitely likes it. He just, he's not, he doesn't like it like to where he's gonna want one, you know. [00:16:44] Speaker C: For sure, for sure. Cool, man. Very, very cool. Very interesting. And so your RO system that's up and running now or is that something you're still, you're still working on? [00:16:55] Speaker B: No, no, I set up, but I haven't, I haven't got it up around because I'm trying to get all the new, the new piping in because at this point it's worthless to. Just because I, I was gonna put new piping, but only like where I was gonna have my setup. But at this point I'm. I saw this literally just happened yesterday. I saw how bad they were. So sadly I think I'm have to literally do every, every pipe. [00:17:19] Speaker A: Oh man. Yeah, mate. [00:17:20] Speaker C: Well, yikes. [00:17:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I was gonna say it's a bummer, but I mean, the more I think about it, I mean shit happens in life and it's, it's not all shits and giggles and sometimes we gotta do some or make some happen, you know what I'm saying? [00:17:35] Speaker C: For sure. [00:17:35] Speaker D: It's always something, always something. Something always comes up, something always breaks, something always needs to be replaced or fixed or. [00:17:42] Speaker B: Yeah, so am I going to. [00:17:44] Speaker D: It'd be nice if it was nice and smooth sailing, but very rarely like that. [00:17:49] Speaker B: This ain't a fairy tale, you know, this is real life. [00:17:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:54] Speaker C: Most definitely. Cool. Adam, you want to give us a personal and bonsai update? [00:18:04] Speaker D: Yeah. Well, like I alluded to earlier, I am a new first time dad and so I've been, you know, just enjoying being a dad most of the time. I'm basically kind of like a stay at home dad right now. And during the week, like Monday through Friday, I spend a lot of time with the baby and I'm really only working on the weekends right now. And I'm also not traveling right now either. So most of my work is local. I've kind of been taking the back burner on work and just kind of enjoying that first time dad kind of thing. [00:18:51] Speaker B: And. [00:18:53] Speaker D: You know, other than that, just trying to work when I can. And then I'm going to be starting to travel a little bit more at the end of this year. Starting in December, I'm going to start getting back into the swing of things, of work and stuff and hopefully posting more videos and getting back on social media. I, I can't really, you know, I'm not a real big social media person, but I know it's an integral part of being relevant in the Bonsai, you know, community. So that's something I have to get back on as well. But hopefully, you know, as things go forward, I'd like to make some better YouTube videos and, and get back out traveling for work and just make better trees. [00:19:45] Speaker C: Nice. Did, did you just show a couple trees? [00:19:51] Speaker D: Did I show a few trees? [00:19:52] Speaker C: Yeah. I thought I saw a little maple and something on Instagram. [00:19:58] Speaker D: Oh no, that's, that's a, a customer of mine. He's, he's going to be showing some trees at the, the Rendezvous, the GSBF Rendezvous. And I just dialed the Juniper for him and had been doing some work on some other miscellaneous stuff for him. So I actually did a YouTube video on repotting in mid, mid growing season. And then also I did a video. Actually I haven't edited it yet, but I filmed for styling this big juniper I did for him as well. So hopefully I'll be posting that soon. [00:20:44] Speaker C: Fantastic. Yeah, your, your videos look really good. You're doing an awesome job with that. What's it like editing and posting YouTube videos? What's that process been like for you? [00:20:57] Speaker D: You know, I wish it was something that I had the patience for. I wish I could be like this really computer savvy person who's good at editing and you know, working and knowing all the intricacies of the program. [00:21:12] Speaker A: The. [00:21:12] Speaker D: But it's really something I don't enjoy doing. Honestly. I enjoy so much more of actually just making the video and working on the trees. And so the editing process is very, very minimal. I mean I, I shoot everything on my phone and then I edit on a very like rudimentary program. Not anything fancy by any means, but you know, I'm caring more about the results rather than the process. I think as time goes forward, I'd like to really pawn off the editing to somebody who's really good at it and enjoys making videos and could make some really cool stuff. But right now it's just like it takes so much time to edit and I just don't have the time. So it's pretty basic, you know, kind of stitching videos together and nothing more than that really. But hopefully as time goes on, it'll get a little more interesting with the editing and. [00:22:18] Speaker B: Yeah. You know. [00:22:18] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:22:21] Speaker D: Like, like Julian and how he's been doing it. Some fancy stuff going on over there. [00:22:26] Speaker B: You gotta give it to anybody that does the YouTube because the little time and the little bit of videos That I did made me realize how sucky it is to edit. It's like, dude, it's the reason I don't do videos. In a way it's like for a tree that let's just say is going to take me one hour to work on now it's going to take me three to four hours and then I got to get home and take out out of a thousand customers, the way I talk, make sure I only have 900 in the video. Just take forever. [00:22:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean originally I had like my recent like YouTube foray and just trying it out and, and the big main reason I was because I, I don't know necessarily, I mean at least like right now, like right. I enjoy the editing a lot either. Inevitably I guess like anything you do and I mean you want to put like a lot of work in it. I mean the early process is, is tedious and I'm kind of brute force learning everything and making a lot of mistakes. But I kind of was thinking this last year just in terms of my work and on some end it's very grateful to have consistent workflows and clients. LA is very populous county and so in theory, right, there should be more clients. And so that's like partially true. But then a lot of my time is, gets consumed by like traveling and there's like the driving aspect. Actually I do like a lot of driving every year and just even commuting short distances for clients within la. I mean like say I work eight hours, but maybe I like the worst is I will spend five hours driving locally because I get stuck in traffic over two hours each way. And so I'm like, I don't know if that's like sustainable long term. And of course maybe long term goals is, is I kind of start working towards a nursery and kind of centering my home base and kind of my feelings now it's just I just need to like try stuff that's not necessarily making me like money. Maybe I take some hit on like my income and livelihood, but just maybe something that has like potential to develop. And so. Right, like YouTube and, and really I don't have any expectations of that right now. Just I just might just try it and learn. [00:25:03] Speaker D: That's exactly how I'm approaching it. [00:25:06] Speaker A: And so I, I saw this. So my idea is I saw this, I started watching this like watch youtuber recently and like I don't really know anything about watches or have a crazy interest or anything. It's like some like Dutch guy or whatever and, and so he's talking about something that, like, I really don't know anything about that subject, but it's like presented in a way, it's like palatable that it's interesting, anybody can watch it. And I was like, oh, in the YouTube space for other niche kind of hobbies where people can get very like tunnel vision and technical in it, there's content already made that's like good quality, but it's for the average person. And like, I feel in the bonsai content space you have like stuff, like high production value, stuff the professionals are making. And really that's kind of like a lead, right? It's meant for the existing bonsai practitioners, right? They're going to watch and see that stuff, right? Like Bjorn and Rya. And then. And then you have more just like, just like the everyday kind of like YouTuber stuff, which is like, like Peter's Chance Heron's Bonsai. You know, a lot of people give. Give those guys a ton of flack. They're like, ah, information's terrible, blah, blah, blah. And you know, sometimes that's true. But in a sense what they're doing is like, is. [00:26:34] Speaker C: Is. [00:26:34] Speaker A: Is pretty legit. And they have this like, great demeanor and it's like accessible and, and they bring potential people into the practice. And so I'm thinking like, oh, this already exists in other interests in bonsai, there can be some kind of content that is, I guess, as good as I can get in terms of my actual bonsai ability and skill. But it should be. Anybody can understand it, right? And it's not like the more complicated it sounds, the more superior it is. I'm trying to figure it out. How do you make that accessible just to the average person? And then maybe in that space there can be other business avenues. Like, I don't even know yet. [00:27:34] Speaker D: That's the beauty of YouTube. I mean, there's just so many different avenues that you can go down. And like you said, you don't know what's going to work. You kind of just try different things. And then maybe something takes or it leads into something else, you know? [00:27:47] Speaker A: Right. There's like tons of potential. But then I think I realized this is actually like my problem. A lot of times I just, I just think about what I need to do. I write down and map out my plan and my task calendar and I just like waste 50, 60% of the time just like hypothesizing on what to do. And I'm just like, I just have to like, do stuff and I have no idea how it's gonna pan out. [00:28:19] Speaker D: That's funny, because I'm the opposite. I'm like. I never plan anything out. I never have an idea of what I'm gonna do. I kind of just flick it on and kind of go with it, and something comes out of it. Sometimes it doesn't, and then I scrap it. Or I'm definitely the opposite in that way. I don't spend any time thinking too. Too much in depth about, you know, what's lacking or anything like that. [00:28:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:47] Speaker D: So that's good. [00:28:48] Speaker A: I'm feeling. Sometimes you just gotta, like, go for it and do stuff, and you're. Your. Your thinking will be through the trial and error of mistakes and. [00:29:00] Speaker D: Yeah, exactly. [00:29:02] Speaker A: Kind of my changes this year. Yes. [00:29:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I'm kind of with Adam in a way. I. I mean, dude, I'm going front. I don't. I mean, when I have a. A demo or a workshop, I'm sorry to say, for the people that are booking me, but I'm. I'm not planning anything. Once I get there, it's whatever. The vibe I feel, you feel me, Whatever rolls off the tongue, and it's straight off the dome, like Eminem was saying. [00:29:29] Speaker A: Yep. [00:29:34] Speaker C: That'S cool. I wish I could be like that. I feel like I have to plan things out very much so. Otherwise they'll go very poorly and have to practice. But I feel like a lot of people and, like, Caesar, like, you are. You're very good, like, just right off the cuff, improving things, and I'm just not like that. But you have a talent for that, for sure. [00:29:54] Speaker B: I just feel like it would not, like, in a bad way, Julian, or anything, but. Yeah, for me, I feel like that kind of takes the fun out of it. If I'm out here stressing on what the I' ma say. You feel me? It's like I'm over here. Like. Yeah, no, it's like, okay, here's the thing, too. For me, bonsai, bro. And. And here's the weird thing. I keep thinking more and more about this, bro. For me, bonsai. The reason I joined, the reason I'm doing bonsai, boys, because it was supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be something that I do, and, you know, it gets me out of the regular daily stress and all this. So it's like, I see the same thing when I'm doing workshops and demos. It's like, I kind of want to have fun with it, and I hope people have fun with it too, because at the end of the day, that's what it should be about 100%. That's just how I feel. And the more I do it, the more I feel like that. Because, bro, I didn't get into this to do everything straight up how the rules say and be this boring dude that just does everything the right way and doesn't say anything or don't do nothing different. It's like, bro, you know, and the reason why I have a lot of friends that I met through bonsai, right? And a lot of them, like we said, are a little older. So I've been having to deal, or at least I've been exposed now that I have older friends, to how, you know, these older people, you know, they get sick, they get. They get, you know, stuff to where they're telling me, you know, you know, I'm on my way out and you still got this. Well, guess what? I could drive home. I could be going home tomorrow. Crashing gay killed, bro. And guess who live longer now. You, bro. The person that 80 years old telling me that I'm a live longer, bro. So the more I think about it, the more I don't want to be boring, bro, the more I want to have fun with. With life. And bonsai is. The sole reason I'm doing this is because it kept me out of dark place, you could say. And I want to be like that for everybody else. And it's like, you know, when I'm doing a workshop, if we're looking at your tree and you don't want to do it the traditional way, and you see the ghost from Christmas past in that motherfucker, and you want to do something different and weird, guess what? We're going to do something different and weird because at the end of the day, you gonna take that home. You gonna put that on your bench. When you walk out of your backyard, you're the one looking at it. So I want you to be happy. Well, what you look at, I don't care if I think it looks goofy, you know, saying. Because at the end of the day, like I said, it's supposed to be fun and supposed to bring you happiness in life, not. Not. You shouldn't be thinking too much of it is the way I feel, you know, I mean, but that's just me, you know, who am I? [00:32:28] Speaker D: And I think that's an interesting point because there's just so many ways to approach a hobby like this, you know, it's like, it's so complicated and so deep, but then at the same time, like, you just don't have to take it there you can take it anywhere in between. And there's just so much room for so many different professionals and hobbyists and everyone in between to just kind of find what works for them and to explore that. [00:32:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I, I totally like agree what you're saying Caesar. And, and usually I think it's like for me, well actually for like say I do like presentations and programs like actually all, all that stuff. I mean maybe I'll make a PowerPoint, but the, the talk and everything is just all off the cuff mainly from like a public speaking perspective. If, if you try to follow a specific kind of rigid plan, right, it's, it's just comes off like unnatural and you're liable to make mistakes. And in that sense it's like I'm not, not trying to over plan too much, but I, I think it was more in like just, and probably what's like gives me stress. It's more just like the, the, the day to day life stuff. Just thinking like, like okay, like how am I planning my business, how am I planning my income? What can I do to do better? And, and, and sometimes right stuff I don't have the answer for or like can't control. And I, I, that was kind of maybe especially the last year I was, I was like thinking too much that way. Which you're right. It like it like takes some of the fun out of it. Like out get home and I'm like, I'm like damn, I'm like tired. And then instead of just like oh, now I can work on my tree. I'm like oh, I gotta, I gotta rest like a little bit. And so I may try to break away from that a bit and, and just maybe just not do stuff like to overthink it. And I mean you just do something just because you enjoy it and just a simple reason like that. And so I, I think I'm like struggling with that, that balance where keeping it like pure and authentic for myself. So I, I, I enjoy it and don't burn out. And then also just figuring out life stuff and, and business and stuff like that. [00:35:03] Speaker C: You know. One question that I always have for professionals and you guys all got me thinking about this is just like if, if you go into bonsai and you become a bonsai professional, does that take the passion out of bonsai for you in, in any way? [00:35:22] Speaker D: So you know, when I was spending time in Japan so many times we had this conversation with like my, my senpai and my teacher and stuff where it's like bonsai is not fun. This is not fun. This is hard work. This is how you feed your family. This is work. You're here to work, you're here to learn. Nothing about this is fun. You're going to push yourself to the absolute limit and you're going to hate it, but you do it because you love it. And so there's this weird dichotomy of you do it because you love it, but nothing about it is fun in the traditional fun sense. So that's coming at it from a very, very different perspective. I mean, that was me living in a very traditional kind of Japanese environment. But now that I'm home and I have my own business, I get to take that with me and kind of approach it in a way that I want to approach it as. And so I'm trying to find a good, happy medium where I have that work ethic. Like this is, this is how I support, you know, support my family and at the same time enjoying it and loving it for what it is. [00:37:06] Speaker C: Yeah, it's, it's interesting. I. I guess, you know, I'm extremely passionate about bonsai. And so obviously because of that, I've thought about, hey, would I want to be in bonsai as a career? But one of my friends fears is just that I might lose the passion. And so I'm always wondering that now I'm also kind of like the whole goal of me working so. Well, not the whole goal, but a big part of the goal of me working so hard in my career is so that I have time. I have the free time and the ability to work on my trees when I would like. And sometimes I hear, I hear, yeah. [00:37:45] Speaker D: That'S the best way. [00:37:46] Speaker C: Yeah, Well, I hear a lot about professional bonsai professionals and they don't have time to work on their own trees. And I'm like, oh, I don't know if I like that. [00:37:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:37:57] Speaker D: The best way is to make good money, do a job that, you know, you can support a family with, do all the things you love in life and, and take bonsai as a real hobby and just enjoy it for the art and the love that it is. It's very different being a professional and having to work to sustain money and make life happen. So it's a very different approach. [00:38:25] Speaker A: I feel like. Well, basically because when I, you know, I, I really, I wasn't in Japan like that long, right? It was like barely, like two years or whatever. And then when I, I came back, it's just like, you know, ultimately it's like My goal, I really liked the kind of craftsmen mindset. Like you pursue something and, and study it to like a high level and like a soul dedication and, and kind of like in this right around pandemic start, I was just having like serious doubts. I was like, oh, like can I even like make it? And, and what does the professional course even like mean? And because there's, it was kind of exactly what like Adam is, is saying. There's like a, a balance where there, there's a practical aspect, family livelihood and just the normal day to day stuff. I mean it's your business and you are responsible for that. And if you only want to have fun, I mean this is like a pessimistic view, but it's almost like too naive because life just throws stuff at you and you have to contend with that. And so I was working in San Diego and I had this, this kind of like crazy job at a startup and I was working like insane hours and my, my boss was like, he's like, he's, you know, he, he was a good boss in some sense, but just, but just like doesn't respect boundaries and I'm like, still struggle, you know, like saying no and even then even worse. So I like said yes to everything, which just meant just me just working ridiculous hours all the time. And, and I was talking to like my dad at that time and he asked me, you know, is, is bonsai something you just enjoy to do for yourself, right, and not have to worry about others? And I was like, I was like, oh, I, I don't know, I just have to live that scenario. And so, you know, I worked and I, I had my trees with me at, at this place I was rent, you know, I was looking for a room I could rent in, in a place that I could put bonsai trees in. And, and it worked out. I got pretty lucky at my living accommodations at that time. And, and, and kind of I, as I was like early into that career then I, I realized that for me to become say like at a professional level or to be at the capacity and ability at bonsai, I wanted, I just didn't have like enough either of the dedication or the innate ability that as a hobbyist that I felt I was fulfilling like my greatest potential in bonsai. And, and so it took me like over two years to kind of live through that. And I was like, I was like, dang, you know, if, if I want this, it's like I can't, I can't do this like, like half ass measure, like Halfway in my primary career, halfway in bonsai. And I'm just kind of like, I don't want to say like mediocre, but definitely not great, either of them. And, and it was just, it was like a time thing, right? And, and so I, I kind of decided for myself then. I was like, yeah, you know, I've, I've lived through the scenarios and, and this is my answer. And, and ultimately I have to be careful that I, I protect that fine, like a boundary, that margin where of course there's like a practical aspect of a business, but if my work becomes like too transactional, like I'm like not working for the enjoyment of bonsai, but just purely to produce money. You know, other professionals have burnt out over time, right? I've, I've seen that like happen to people and, and it could really suck where you get older and you're just so invested in bonsai, but you, you burn yourself out. It's like you're gonna hate yourself. And so I, I, I'm kind of careful in the sense where, you know, when I take work, I'm, I'm very invested and serious about the work and it's not just to pay the bills, but, you know, I want have positive outcomes in the work, of course, should be enjoyable for the client, but in some aspect has to be enjoyable. And, and I'm, I'm like invested in that as well. So you kind of, you get like selective about the kind of work you take on because not, not every gig, you know, is, is like, is worth doing basically. You know, the money, sometimes you need it, but there's like other prices you pay. [00:43:21] Speaker B: That was deep. [00:43:23] Speaker A: Thanks, dude. [00:43:28] Speaker C: Yeah, I totally get that, Julian. And I think that you should be selective in the work that you take and you should work with good people and people that you want to work with and people that want to progress within bonsai. I mean, I do think that there are individuals that no matter what you do with them, you're just going to give them all your energy, everything that you got, and they're just not going to be responsive to that and move in the appropriate direction. And I think you only have so much time and we need you for other stuff. We need all three of you for elevating the level of bonsai in the US and so I do think it's really important that, that you can say note at the right time and also, you know, be selective in, in who you work with and, and partner with. [00:44:25] Speaker B: Well, fun fact for you guys, if you guys weren't Aware if kind of sort of what you meant about how some people maybe don't fully gather what Julian kind of like you know, says or whatever for. For when he chooses people. I come to find out, you know, there's not. So let's say it's 100 people in Bonsai. I don't know if maybe half are that serious like we are in terms of like you just can't push this on everybody. You feel me? Every. Some. Most people just want something cute to look at. You know what I mean? And I go back to the same thing. That's fine. That's completely fine with me, bro. [00:45:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. There's like of course in any interest or hobby like different like investment levels and interest levels and. Right. You totally. We shouldn't like discriminate or bias against that. People can rightfully enjoy and practice at any level at these want. As like a professional though it's kind of your client relation is that you want to determine whether if the client's expectations and goals is in line with what they actually want. Right. And so say like they're like oh you know, I just want to dabble a bit and just kind of like mess with like very young trees. And they go into that knowing that there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But you know, if you have somebody like and they like give you this whatever like 2 year old cutting or starter kit and I'm like I want this tree like kokofu level in like a few years. Like work your magic. I mean you just know it's. There's like a clear mismatch in expectations. And I think as professionals you want to kind of further the accessibility and the level of bonsai in the US you want to make it easier for people to understand okay like what, what's like required of different goals within bonsai and it's all totally legitimate and. But, but it's. People should understand that. And then for the professional, of course you work with people as long as they understand that everybody has the same expectations, you know, I, I'll still like do beginner stuff, teach people, teach the general public. And I feel when everybody kind of like is on the same page in terms of what they want you. Everybody has a good time. But it's more when it's like the expectations is not like matched up then then somebody is going to feel like oh, something's not quite right. [00:47:13] Speaker C: Most definitely. Dang man. We, we got a kind of deep right in the beginning. I feel like do we lose? I don't know if I was expecting to go into this. I was thinking of changing gears a bit and going into more of the esthetic stuff. Do you guys like that idea? If we can get Adam back on. [00:47:37] Speaker A: Cool. Yeah, yeah, I'm good with that. Yeah. [00:47:40] Speaker C: Is that okay with you guys? [00:47:42] Speaker B: Yeah, whatever. [00:47:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:47:47] Speaker C: Why don't we change course here a little bit? So I'd really like to talk about bonsai aesthetics in general and what makes a bonsai valuable, in your opinion, or high quality, what you look for in good bonsai. But I guess before we really dive into that, I think it's important to define what are we really doing when we're creating bonsai? What is the goal from an aesthetic point of view? And I guess one question is, are we just trying to create nature in a miniaturized form, or is there something more and additional or additional to that? What is your opinion on that? [00:48:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm. So it's kind of first, right? [00:48:41] Speaker B: You. [00:48:41] Speaker A: You have to kind of define what your goals are and what you want out of bonsai. In reality, from a purely, like, aesthetic perspective, it's like there's tons of legitimate forms and. And esthetic can be derived from nature. But then also, we need to know that nature does not necessarily follow a single convention, because something derived from nature is just concerned with survival, and so it's just adapted to whatever environment it grows in. And so if you really wanted to use the argument, like, oh, I like natural bonsai, or I'm showing off natural trees, I mean, you can find a case scenario for every aesthetic in nature because it's just. Just going to be naturally very diversified and not necessarily random, but just way more than what people think, like, oh, trees always look this shape, or conifer branches always grows down and out. And, I mean, you're gonna get everything in between. I think the tricky part for aesthetic and bonsai is that we're using, like, the living tree. And so it's like, a given, right? You do stuff to the tree and the plant. It'll grow and change shape. And that's important because if we want to define aesthetic in bonsai as unique from other art forms or whatever, I mean, say if the tree, it would just stay alive, but it would never grow, right? Then you would give it this super badass styling the first time, and it would just hold the shape, look cool. It's like, green, has leaves, whatever, and. But we know it's just. It'll change and grow. And. And so aesthetic is. Is kind of, like, not that straightforward because it is of course, how the tree looks in the given moment, but how well is that planned with how the tree is going to grow and adapt to that? And so the best aesthetics are the ones that achieve an interesting design relative to that tree. So you're making some kind of case of what is the purpose or the story you're trying to tell. Is it, like, interesting or convincing? And that's kind of overlaid with the time progression. And if you can pull it off over many successive years, that design matures and you reach another level. Otherwise, it's like, very surface level. And I mean, people. I mean, I would think that people that's, like, been doing this at least for a few years. You kind of know, you wire something, you style something, maybe it looks good, but if. If that, like, transition work is. Is not done well, you cut off the wire, everything flops. It's a little messy and shaggy, and you're like, oh, damn, tree looks like shit again. Let me wire this all over and. And that's, like, missing the point because, like, bonsai is, like, more than just the surface aesthetics. It was really hard to kind of evaluate it simply. [00:52:03] Speaker B: What he said. [00:52:04] Speaker C: Nice. Very nice. Yeah. I. I think our goal in bonsai can absolutely be to create trees in miniature, but it doesn't necessarily have to do that. And I guess I'm open to other ways of. Of styling trees. [00:52:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:31] Speaker C: And I think that. I always say. I just think that they're Is an element of fiction and nonfiction within our bonsai, and it's kind of up to the individual that's working on the tree to decide how much fiction and nonfiction they want to play into that bonsai. [00:52:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:51] Speaker B: Yeah. I think 100%, you hit the nail on the head on that, because it definitely depends on who's doing it. Right. For me, what got me into bonsai because I knew nothing about it besides the picture that I saw or a little YouTube video that I saw, and it was a person holding a little tree in their hand. And it literally. First thing that pops in my head is, there's a little tree on this dude's hand. Right. So for me, it's not only, do you want to make it look like a tree? Because now I'm even more. I definitely now more look at actual trees where. Which is hilarious. Right. Before, when I was. When I wasn't into bonsai, bruh, I was not looking at the trees when I'm driving past them. Right. So now, wherever I go, whether it's the beach, the mountain, I'm looking at every Tree. Right. And around here there's a lot of big old oaks, you know, out here, not collectible, you know, 100-year-old oaks. And I've seen all these oaks and I love how they look now. Right. I love their, their, their, their, their silhouette or whatever you want to call it in real life. So. And a lot of. And it's trippy because. Sure. With oaks now, you know, a lot of people trying to do it now. More. I didn't want to say that word, but I can't find another word for it. You know, naturalistic kind of looking. And the more I, I'm looking at outside of my window, that's what I want to do because that's. I wanna, I wanna have a tree in my hand. You know what I'm saying? I wanna. This is the way I look at it too, is some Mad Max type shit, right? Enter the world and there's no trees left except a couple. Well, I want a tree in my hand. You feel something that looks like a tree, not a little shrub, not a little. Maybe, Maybe it's because I'm not super into the, the fictional type trees and. But there's nothing wrong with that. Like I said, that's 100. Okay. If you want to do it like that. But for me personally, I definitely want my stuff to look like a tree. And unless it's a juniper, where it's getting styled like a juniper, then I'm more towards the. I don't. Like I said, I don't want to say naturalistic because I'm still wiring my stuff. I'm still doing all this crazy stuff that you might not want to do if you're kind of going super naturalistic on it, you know. But definitely don't want to make it seem too fake. You feel me? Like, too. Yeah. Two. Too controlled. You know what I'm saying? [00:55:19] Speaker C: For sure. For sure. Gotcha. Julian's falling asleep on us because he went to Jiu Jitsu and he is very tired from, from it. [00:55:30] Speaker A: All right. [00:55:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:55:31] Speaker C: It's crazy, man. Jiu Jitsu. I'll tell you what, Jiu Jitsu, like a hard day of Jiu Jitsu. It's one of the only workouts that will physically make me tired like I, I am. I get really tired, like sleepy tired after I do it. Is that the same for you, man? [00:55:49] Speaker A: Because the, the sessions I go to is just the most practical to go. It's like at 6:00am and so I, so I get up at like 5:00am so it's more just Like, I'm up early. But, you know, before, I was thinking, because I was. I was still, like, kind of working out and doing climbing and stuff, I was like, oh, the conditioning will. Will carry through. But, yeah, when you're, like, on the mats, like, rolling a lot and you're. And especially because I'm, like, new, right, I. I always get put in bad positions and just these, like, strong ass, like, people and some, like, big guys, they're just, like, on top of me. And, like, how many times can you try to, like, throw somebody's body weight off you? You're like, I'm tired. [00:56:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. He's not. Those are swollen eyes from getting beat up today, bro. [00:56:42] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. [00:56:44] Speaker C: Shoot. Gotcha. Cool. Cool. All right. What are. What are your three favorite species for bonsai? Cesar, you want to start, and then I want to pick one of these, and I want to talk about what makes a good quality of that species. This particular species. [00:57:03] Speaker B: Damn. You know, it's. It's. It's. It's. It's. I don't think I have a favorite, and probably you will say olives for sure, is one of my favorites. I don't want to say it's my favorite. Yo, the homie. [00:57:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:14] Speaker D: Hey, sorry about that. You guys still going? [00:57:19] Speaker C: No problem. We're still going. [00:57:20] Speaker B: Julian's falling. We're here. [00:57:23] Speaker C: No worries. [00:57:23] Speaker B: Well, you're back, though. [00:57:25] Speaker C: Okay, so. So what we're doing, Adam, is we're saying our three favorite species for bonsai. [00:57:30] Speaker B: Or ask him that aesthetic question, though, first. [00:57:36] Speaker C: Okay. So, Adam, I. The question we were talking about earlier was, what is the goal of bonsai from an esthetic point of view? Like, what are you trying to accomplish with bonsai? What do you want your trees to look like? And is the. Is the goal to make a miniature version of a tree? Is that the only goal or the main goal, or is it something else or something? [00:58:05] Speaker D: So I think there's. There's. I don't think there is one singular goal. I mean, I think it's kind of like multiple goals kind of wrapped up into, you know, a finished piece. We want something to look. [00:58:24] Speaker A: Old. [00:58:26] Speaker D: And there's a lot of different ways that can happen. Whether it's a lot of branches, a lot of small branches, or correctly placed branches or maybe deadwood or bark, something that shows age within the tree itself. And then we also want to show age and training, too. Right? So. And that kind of comes back to having lots of fine branches and showing a lot of technical skill and how we approach styling. I think there's a lot of cool material out there that's been collected and then kind of like has an initial styling, but it looks young in a bonsai, like, frame of reference. Just because it hasn't developed over time as a bonsai. Right. And so I think the age of the tree itself is important, and also the age in training is important. And, you know, I think there's multiple ways to approach styling. I mean, there's a very natural way to approach it. There's a very like, almost cartoonish or stylistic or over styled kind of approach. How I like to approach it is I like to think of a story that this tree is telling. And as the artist, I want that story to be convincing in a natural sense. I don't want something to feel mismatched or something that just doesn't make sense in the overall scheme of the tree. And I kind of want there to be almost. Yeah. To like, tell a story. I want this tree to tell a story. And I feel like the older and the more time in training and the more well done it is, that story comes alive in the finished kind of product. There were so many trees that I worked on in Japan that have just been worked on for, you know, generations of people. And the story is hidden within the people who are working on it. And I really feel like it's about conveying that story. Does that make sense? [01:01:26] Speaker B: Yep. [01:01:26] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I like, I like how Adam put it where it's. It's like, not so much in like a given literal aesthetic that makes a tree good or not, but for your, your chosen path, is it believable and like, how strongly you convey that? And of course, we like, we value age and bonsai, and so the more you can push it and age the concept or story you're trying to tell, it's just like, becomes more and more natural in a sense. Right. Embodied by the tree. [01:02:04] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:02:05] Speaker D: And when all those things, like, really converge. Well done. It really just kind of all comes together and tells a really good story. So, I mean, for. That's how I like to approach my aesthetic, like styling. But like I said, I mean, there's many ways to do it. Right. So I don't know if there, there is a right or wrong way. So. Yeah. [01:02:41] Speaker C: Nice. Is your understanding of the Japanese term mochikomi? Does that describe the. The age within a pot? So how old the tree looks like as bonsai, Is that your understanding? And not, not that we. I, I think I've spoken with Peter quite in depth about how, like, he doesn't necessarily think that we need to use the Japanese terms. And I. I would agree with that. Like, I think it's not like I need to know all these Japanese terms. [01:03:11] Speaker D: We can. [01:03:12] Speaker C: Instead of saying nabari, we could say surface roots because we're in the U.S. [01:03:17] Speaker D: Yeah, but I mean, I think. I think the art form is derived mainly from, you know, a Japanese perspective. And so a lot of these words and terms we kind of translate. But I don't. I don't think that it needs to be the Japanese term for it. You know what I mean? Another. Another good word is that I like to approach in my styling and aesthetic, too, which is like wabi sabi, which is very complicated, but in simple term, it's. You know, it's the. It's the beauty of the imperfect, in a way. And so something that is too perfect is not as believable or as natural as something that is soft and a little bit broken and mended and repaired and not so stiff and. Yeah, so, I mean, there's a lot of. There's a lot of, you know, those Japanese terms, but we. We can, you know, use our own English. English dictionary to kind of describe those things. Sometimes they're important, sometimes they're not. I think bonsai is not just about the tree. It's about the pot as well, too. Right. Because that's such a unique aspect of bonsai in the aesthetic. It's the style of the tree, but then also pairing it with a pot that matches that aesthetic and feeling to kind of give you that, you know, whatever you want to call it, balance and completeness that bonsai requires. [01:05:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I. I think probably the. The closest translation of, like, mochikomi is just kind of like cultivated age. And so it's like the feeling that it's mature, established and. And settled and, you know, whether you're pursuing a natural look or not, where, in a sense, we want our creation to be natural, as in not necessarily copying nature, but it's, like, believable as its own entity, its own object. It has come forth of itself. Right. And that's. That's when it gains stature and presence. Like, Adam mentioned wabi sabi and. And, you know, I don't even know, like, super deep into that. But that's, like, really important in bonsai, actually, and kind of an interesting, you know, idea about it, because they also talk about imperfection and whatnot, but the imperfection is not deliberate. It's kind of like a byproduct of just the natural process that there will be an inherent amount of imperfection in the, the natural world, right? And so like when in Japan they have the, the tea bowls and the ceramics and I don't know the exact history, but at some point it went from more ornate to more like, like rustic and kind of free form ish shape. It's like how we think of like non bonds and stuff. And it's not like the people made the cup purposefully like that. The mindset is like, what is the purpose of this cup and the essence of the vessel. I'm making it. And you just forget about the other stuff. And so the work has a pure intention and the imperfection is just a byproduct of the process. And so really good bonsai, I feel it's, it's like the work is, is very pure in a sense. It's like very diligent. It's a clear intention. The tree ages and matures and there's just the, the natural byproduct of time. So you, you have a convincing story, right? You remove all these contrived or manipulated elements and then in the end all you're left is, is with the natural tree. Even though, you know, like a ton of stuff happened to it and a lot of technique. But it's like when, and it's like maybe hard. There's like old bonsai does exist in the U.S. but there's just like less. And just when you see really old bonsai, right, for the first time, you're like, you're like, oh, damn. Like, okay, there's, it's, there's definitely a deeper level, right? It gets, the trees just have so much more presence and impact and, and I feel even people who aren't even deep in bonsai, but you have a tree like that, they'll just kind of like be like, oh, I like this one more. And they won't know why, but for sure the trees gain presence when they embody those values. I think, I think that's like actually the deal breaker between like great trees and mediocre trees. It's. It has to have that. [01:08:57] Speaker D: And, and you know, another aspect of it too is that each, each individual piece is from that byproduct, unique. I mean, my scissors, they're mass produced, but only my pair of scissors have I dropped 400 times and have, you know, 10 years of SAP build up and have sharpened it for three years and then dented them and scratched them in this natural way that now only I have this one pair of scissors. Even though There's a bazillion of them out there, as in bonsai. Capturing that uniqueness in as that age continues. It truly is a one of one unique piece of work. [01:10:03] Speaker C: Beautiful question for you both or for all three of you. This may be a stupid question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. So is actual age the most important thing within bonsai, or is it really important or is it more important for a tree to look really old? So is it the actual age or the appearance of actual age? [01:10:41] Speaker A: Yeah, so I. I think the. The cultivated or, you know, you. You say like the actual age versus, like, how it appears. But a good bonsai that's, like, well developed. It's like real age, right? You're not faking it. That's like the years of dedication. You. You built the branch. And so more. I actually, I would say if you're just only making a tree look old, then for sure the real age is more valuable. Because maybe you can say, oh, for me, a tree looks old with the branches down, or I style it with the right amount of negative space and showcasing the right branches on the tree. And while the aesthetic you can say is old, then we know the branches are super young and immature as bonsai. For me, that's like. It's very shallow. It's like, very surface level. [01:11:39] Speaker D: Definitely. [01:11:41] Speaker A: And so I think the question is actually, is the cultivated age or is the true age of the tree more important? I think that's more like in the dilemma in bonsai. And for that, I actually say the cultivated age is more important. You can have a super, like, badass piece of yamadori and just, like, amazing trunk and deadwood, but the branch work is terrible, and the tree is just young as bonsai. I mean, you can still present it and be. And people like, oh, the trunk looks amazing. This is an ancient tree. And from a purely, like, horticultural perspective, you can say, like, oh, this is. This is like, Sorry, hold on. My screen's like, freaking out. You can say, this is like a. A beautiful subject, right. As a plant. But we are appreciating this as a practice of bonsai, right? And we're not just growing plants for a plant show. And if that's what we value, then the cultivated age for me has, like, more priority. [01:12:51] Speaker D: But I mean, they. I. For me, I feel like you can't just say one is more important than the other. [01:13:01] Speaker C: I don't. [01:13:01] Speaker D: I don't see it as like, oh, you have to have this or you have to have this. I think you kind of need Them both depending on what the tree is itself. Because I mean, if you have an old piece of collected yamadori and you've been working on it for one year, well, you know, you have some nursery stock that you've been working on for one year, but then you have some great piece of yamadori that you've been working on for 30 years, well, that's going to be better than the nursery stock from 30 years ago. And so I don't think one is more important than the other. Putting them both together and then letting them both shine in both aspects is both important in their own. Right. [01:13:52] Speaker C: Yeah, I guess my thought was that their very much correlated together. So if something looks really old, it probably is really old. As time progresses, we get better and better bark on a, on a black pine. I guess I was kind of wondering about that because like, if you take bark for an example on black pine, it's kind of like the more the better, generally speaking, but also the more bark that you have, the older the tree. But a tree with more bark might not necessarily be the oldest of the tree of the two trees if you compare them. And so therefore I would go with the, the tree with more bark. But generally speaking, the older the tree, the better the bark it's going to have on. [01:14:37] Speaker D: Yeah. So it really depends on both of those kind of coming together. [01:14:43] Speaker B: Yeah, most definitely. [01:14:45] Speaker C: Most definitely. [01:14:45] Speaker B: You know, I'm definitely not hella deep into it, like sad, but I was gonna hit you with a, with a, you know, reverse card on you and ask you a question. When you asked that question to me was what the, the first thing that just came to my head, right, was like you said a yamadori juniper. That's this old ass trunk and next to it is, is, is a stick in a pot that you just made it. You, you worked all the branches and made that shit look older, right? So my question was like, how old could you really make a young trunk? Look, the reason I say this, I never had the opportunity or the money to buy real nice old yamadori stuff or old stuff, which is another reason I got into the olives, right? Because they got some cool trunks on them. They're kind of old. So my thing is since I started, I've had these trees where I've been working on it for four, five, six years, right? So like, the foliage looks kind of cool because it's kind of growing in now, but yet the stick is still a stick. So how nice can I really make the tree when the trunk is never Gonna look as nice as a real deep old trunk will look. You know, like you said on the pines, it's just not going to have enough bark on it like an older one will. So. [01:16:09] Speaker D: And I think that's a, that's a real skill. I mean that's a real skill that every person in bonsai needs to work through is where is that line of being able to afford the best material that you can and then having the time needed to make that into, you know, a good bonsai in the end? So balancing how much you can spend and getting a good piece of material is going to be something that I think everyone is trying to figure out, you know, what can I afford and how long is it going to take to get the best result in the end. And the shorter the time, maybe someone is a little older and newer. In bonsai, I always suggest, you know, if you want something nice in the end, you gotta have to kind of start with something that's a little further along. But then maybe if we're a little younger and we have the time to put into it, well, we can really build that tree and take that piece of material and then in the end get something better in the end. [01:17:28] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I feel like with bonsai, anytime we purchase a tree, we're paying for time. That's the way I always look at it. We're not pay. I mean we are paying for a bonsai, but we're, we're really paying for time. And that's either time that someone. [01:17:45] Speaker B: Put. [01:17:46] Speaker C: Into a tree to create and grow a tree from scratch or potentially yamadori. So something that was collected out in the wild. [01:17:55] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:17:56] Speaker B: And even then we're paying only quarter. Quarter of that. Of that time. [01:18:02] Speaker D: That's right. [01:18:04] Speaker B: Because you ain't you. You won't be able to afford it a thousand year old tree if it actually costed what a thousand year old tree should cost. [01:18:10] Speaker D: Yeah. And the tree is gonna live on past what we do. So hopefully it'll just keep getting better and passed on and continuing to develop as its own. Its own piece of bonsai. [01:18:29] Speaker C: Absolutely, absolutely. Well, okay, while we have you on, Adam, let's start with you. What are your three favorite species for bonsai? And I would love to also hear maybe if you, if you have one that's somewhat unusual and I'm putting you on the spot here, but I would love to hear maybe like your kind of outside the box, not standard species that you like. [01:18:54] Speaker D: Well, I've been really, you know, dabbling in shohin and trying to Develop my collection for shohin. And so a good, you know, shohin collection kind of needs a lot of, a lot of different things to. Rather than just having like a bunch of junipers or a bunch of conifers or a bunch of deciduous, it's important to have a lot of mix matching and a bunch of different stuff. As far as what I personally like, I really like red pines. I really like trident maples. And fruiting trees. I really like fruiting and flowering trees. I think, you know, that's an underappreciated aspect of bonsai. I'd like to see more fruiting and flowering trees. And as far as maybe something kind of unusual. Let's see, I've been trying to cultivate musk maples. I don't know if anyone knows what they are. It's kind of like a trident maple family. It's like a three lobed maple, but they, if you like rub your fingers on them, they kind of have this weird smell to them and they make really good small trees. And so I'm trying to make a few of those. But one of my favorites also maybe silverberry. I love silverberry. It kind of has the best of all worlds. It's got good bark, the leaves are really small. It flowers and it has little cute red fruits and yeah, I'd probably say silverberries up there on my list too. What about you, Cesar? [01:20:57] Speaker B: Well, since you asked, I don't have a favorite. I think I was telling Jeremiah earlier, you might, you might have thought I was gonna hit you with the olive. Olives are, I guess one of my favorites for sure. Just the fact that like, like, like, like, you know, Shohin got me into bonsai and Shohin kept me here. You feel me? I'm not a huge fan of big trees. I, I could appreciate, appreciate them for sure. I definitely don't want to mess with them. You know what I'm saying? It's like I always say, I think it's funner to work on two to three trees in one day, then work on one tree for two to three days, you know what I'm saying? So when I look at it that way, that's another reason I like olives so much. Because they're so drought tolerant and my weather is so harsh. I mean, just this last two weeks has been 100, 507, right, for the past two weeks. So definitely olives are part of my favorite. But I don't think I have a species in particular besides the fact that now I'm just super into like a Deciduous trees, you know, I mean and so I guess I could say off the top of my. My head I definitely mess with trident maples a lot. I definitely. I mean I got a silverberry but I only have that one. One thing I want to get more into is, is I. I got a Chinese. [01:22:14] Speaker C: Quince quince. [01:22:16] Speaker B: I don't know why I just lost my trailer quince and I'm actually super surprised at how well it likes it with me. So you know I actually might want to say that's probably one of my favorite tree at the moment or species of tree because I definitely want another one. They. They seem to love the heat. They seem to grow just really good. And I'm not gonna say the drought tolerant but I mean I have it in, in. In 40 shade in this 107 degree weather and not one burnt leaf on that. You know what I'm saying? Obviously I got to keep up with. [01:22:51] Speaker D: The watering but yeah, they're thirsty suckers. [01:22:54] Speaker B: Yeah. So that's definitely the one I water the most. That and the silverberry. But yeah, I think you're right. I wouldn't say flowering trees because I. In my weather I can't have anything that has flowers besides maybe a bougainvillea. You know saying which I do have and it's a cool species actually of tree. But yeah, I don't think I have a specific one besides probably some decisions trees for sure. I'm super into that right now. For some reason I haven't touched the juniper in in in in in in in a while actually. [01:23:21] Speaker C: Yeah, your quince is killer, man. I really like that tree. It. The. You purchased it from Peter, right? [01:23:29] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. Yeah. Well I'm glad you like it. It says a lot because I fell in love with it when I. When I copped it. I couldn't leave home without it and yeah, I had to copy. Yeah, I really like that tree. I haven't posted it on. On my social yet just because I just kind of like on my. I'm a. I have two socials right. Senkal Bonsai and Cesar Adonis, right On my Cesaro Donyas. I post nothing about my family, nothing about my personal life. Just cuz I kind of don't want you to know. You feel me? I kind of. It's cool if you see my funny videos. It's cool if you see my bonsai. But I could care less if you know what's happening with me and my fam or whatever, you know, because you don't care either. You feel me? So I don't want you to know. So I think for that quince right now I'm kind of just. I'm vibing with it. You feel me? Like, I see it every day kind of. It's. It's. I feel like it likes me, you know. So right now I was keeping it. Personally, I didn't want to put it out in the public yet, but I'll probably post a picture of it in the winter once I get the silhouette after. Because, you know, once I. With the first time I got it, I chopped a lot of it off. You know, it's kind of the main branches are still there, but most of all, the, what do you call it, tertiary branching is gone and a lot of the secondary branching I took off. So I kind of started from the beginning, you could say, but not really just how the main branches. So I'm pretty excited on how it's going to look this next winter. [01:24:56] Speaker C: Nice. Hey, can we dive into Chinese quince a bit? That's one of my top three favorite as well, I guess. I'm curious what makes a really good Chinese quince in your opinion? Like starting. Let's say you're talking to a total noob, doesn't know all that much about bonsai. How would you describe a high quality Chinese quince? Adam. [01:25:26] Speaker D: Oh, me. [01:25:27] Speaker C: Adam. Since. Yeah, I'm worried he's gonna. We might lose him in a sec. [01:25:31] Speaker D: But yeah, so. So Chinese quints are. They don't thicken up very quick, right. They take a long time for the, the base to really thicken up. And so when you see one that has a really nice thick base and has good taper, you know that somebody spent a lot of time developing that trunk. Also, because it's deciduous, its surface roots are pretty important. More important than other species and more important than other deciduous species. And then finding good genetics where they don't really get really fine branching like a maple, but some varieties will have very, very coarse, very, very coarse branches. And so getting a tree that has good genetics that can produce semi delicate branches and then growing it after, you know, you have a great base to start with, then growing it really, really slow to develop those fine branching really shows a technical skill that is difficult to do in a lot of other ways in bonsai. So yeah, when you're looking for a good quince, a good sized trunk, good surface roots, and good delicate branching. Soft, delicate branching. [01:27:12] Speaker C: You know, I notice a lot of variation in terms of the size and shape of quince leaves. I feel like I've seen A wide variety there. So I definitely agree with you. I mean I feel like generally speaking would you say the smaller the leaf size, the better? [01:27:30] Speaker D: Yeah, generally speaking. [01:27:34] Speaker C: Nice. Yeah. And I also feel like so quints, I feel like many of them are developed from seed, so getting a nice nabari might be more challenging. Like I feel like do quints air layer very easily. I feel like I don't see them being air layered all that frequently. But I would assume that they air layer, I mean most deciduous trees. Air layer. [01:28:00] Speaker D: Yeah. Julian, did you work on any really good Chinese quints when during your time in Japan? [01:28:06] Speaker A: Yeah, they had some like, like big ones that basically like purchased from other professionals or auctions. I mean those trees were like already made. Right. Like super nice refined trees. And so, you know, not necessary we're doing that much developments more. Sometimes we would do like leaf cutting or like make cutting the leaves actually smaller or just outer defoliating the really well branched ones. It's just like maintenance stuff Quince though on average, you know, I, I think all the ones I've seen, even like the nice ones, they're just a coarser grower. The, the branch tip will only get so much more skinny, right. There'll be a genetic limitation. And so I guess the, the technique is important. Like how they grew that tree or balanced it relative to its size that it has as as many branches it can healthily sustain as possible. So at least you can force the tree to the natural genetic limitation and you'll have like finer branches. Something. You know, I, I see this is like a mistake. This is more like any deciduous trees where people will, I call this like double cutting. The nodes on the branch say you, you grew out a branch and maybe for that development cycle the node came out too coarse or too long and you're like, okay, it's, it's not usable. Let me cut and redo it. You know, I find after you do that two times, which is say you regenerate growth from the same site more than twice. For a variety like Chinese quince, which is already more susceptible to having a naturally thicker growing tip, very liable, the tree is going to get knuckly, coarse branches. And so the, the quince which has not been maintained well over the course of the development, the branch line is going to be not clean. It's going to be knuckly and coarse throughout, especially on the tips. And the one that's well balanced and maintained, you'll have the finer branch tips which is harder to obtain for a naturally thicker grow. It's like never going to get as fine as say like some elms or maples. But then the really good ones still end up looking relatively refined with nice winter silhouettes. And I think that's like a testament to this clean and slow, like it's going to be slow. Right. Technique of building the branches a lot, a lot of time for sure. Yeah. I've, I don't know if I've seen really like any really good like homegrown quince bonsai, like Chinese quince BONSAI in the U.S. you know, I've seen some with decent trunks and main branches. But then the, the ramification and the subsequent beyond the main branch wasn't grown very well, which is just basically the technique over many years was not good or maybe because the tree's always growing coarse or it's never healthy enough to grow additional fine branches. They're just getting these coarse, chunky branches. They grow every year and they just keep re cutting it to silhouette over and over and over. A tree like that can, can be really old as, as bonsai, but the, the progressive development of the branches. Right. It's kind of getting constantly reset. It's not as, as, as mature as it can be. And, and so I think it's, it's a good species for bonsai. It's, it seems it is pretty hardy actually. Like grows well, but it's not as forgiving as other species I think for, for making nice branches. It's like if the work is kind of messy, you know, branches are going to look ugly even you have the tree a long time for sure. [01:32:09] Speaker C: Yeah. You're never going to have a quince as highly ramified as say a trident maple just because the coarseness of the branches. I do think personally I, I like quince in larger sizes just because I feel like everything is in better proportion. I mean although like is your Caesar, yours is medium sized quince or large? [01:32:32] Speaker B: Yeah, mine's medium. Wait, wait, wait. No, no, no. Well, I get confused with the sizes. What's medium? [01:32:39] Speaker C: Well, like a good question. [01:32:41] Speaker A: 10 inches or more than 10 inches? [01:32:43] Speaker B: Oh, it's more than 10 inches. Yeah. [01:32:45] Speaker A: Okay. That's like a chew hinge. [01:32:47] Speaker B: I haven't measured it, but it's around, I don't know, 20, 19, 20. [01:32:53] Speaker A: Oh, I was like, wait. Yeah, I mean it's so, so that's. [01:32:57] Speaker C: I practice that like in between medium to large. To me I've been using the Pacific Bonsai Expo standards, which I think it's 18 inches for a medium tree. Right? [01:33:08] Speaker D: Yeah. We should try and make that a standard. [01:33:12] Speaker C: I'm down. I'm down. All right, it's official. That's the standard. Yeah. So I like, I mean, medium sized, plus on quints. Unless maybe, I don't know, maybe there's some supernaturally dwarfed Chinese quince leaves that would work for shohin. I'm curious. Pretty small. [01:33:33] Speaker D: They get pretty small. And there's some really, really good shohin. They actually make really good shohin material just because while they're not as fine. Yeah. But they still do get really dense and really interesting even as a small, small shape. So you just got to find the right one. One with good genetics. But the leaves do get small. They do get small. It's just the branching. That's what we care about for sure. [01:34:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I definitely noticed the leaves do get small because the first time around when I had to semi defoliate, the leaves were a lot bigger than they are right now at this moment. They're not, not. It's not a huge difference, but it's definitely not as big as they were the first time around. [01:34:24] Speaker C: Nice. [01:34:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:34:25] Speaker C: For me, Chinese quinces is one of my top favorite deciduous trees because you kind of get everything. So you get really cool yellow fruit, you get beautiful pink flowers. You have this interesting exfoliating bark and that you can have nice nabari, nice surface roots. Generally, I like powerful trees, powerful tapering trunks. You can get that. You can kind of get everything with Chinese. Quinn. So I'm, I'm definitely a fan. I'm curious what styles. Big fan. What styles do you think Chinese quints can be made into, appropriately? Julian. [01:35:08] Speaker A: No. Yeah, I mean it's kind of like hard to like, like answer that. I mean, deciduous trees, you have a lot of discrete. Like for me this is, this is my opinion, but the aesthetic of the deciduous tree is, is determined by how you, you of course the, the trunk matters, but it's like how you decide to make your main branches. And then you see like these like old like Chinese quints. In Japan, I remember one of the, the ta conten exhibits. I, I was there. They had like, there's always those like the aisle of displays where some. They do like all of one species sometimes. And one time it was like all Chinese quints and, and some of those, at least the ones I like, I mean they have these ridiculous main branching. It's just super powerful, muscular. They have tons of like movement. Like for me the, the main branch quality, it's more like this kind of like a Pinjing based technique. You, you spend More time making the main branch and you're biasing for like movement and strength. And so I like Chinese Quinns. I don't know if this is a style, but I like them with really muscular branches and because it just really pops with the exfoliating bark. Like, I don't want to see a Chinese quince with skinny, wimpy branch. I mean, proportion to the trunk, of course, but it needs to be like strong. And I wanted to have a lot of weight and maybe that depending on the size of the tree, you delay the onset of ramification and you're, you're just spending years just making these nice main branches and in, I mean, in terms of silhouette, shape, it can be like, can be like anything. Just depends on, on the trunk and size of the tree. Yeah, I think. Did we lose Adam? [01:37:12] Speaker B: Yeah, his phone died. He said. [01:37:16] Speaker A: Okay, yeah. [01:37:18] Speaker B: Yeah. I just found a picture of my quince and it's actually a little less than 18 inches. [01:37:26] Speaker C: Okay. It's like 17 half 18 is medium. So that's perfect. Perfect size for medium because it's going to keep getting bigger slowly over time. So that'll be awesome. I, I hope to see that in the PBE someday. [01:37:44] Speaker B: Hell yeah. But that'll be another time, bro. Because right now I'm trying to show some show him first. I'm definitely trying to show at the next ppe, but, but yeah, I want to show some show him, bro. I mean, I mean, yeah, like I said, show him is, is my thing, bro. I love show him and it's just so fun to me, you know? Like, it's super fun to, to be able to work on big ass trees. Like every time I'm at Peters, you know, he's got the big tree. So it's super fun. It's still fun. But man, I don't know, something about just like this small little thing is just, I don't know, it's just fun to me. Like just to have something. You could just carry that anywhere, right? It's like, I mean, you could literally just take it anywhere. I want to bring it home for the day. I'm gonna take it home. Try taking a, a 26 inch tree home for the day and then coming back, you know, good luck, you know, saying you're gonna need some help for sure. [01:38:36] Speaker C: That's cool. You, you should have a picture of yourself carrying a tree in your palm as like your Facebook and Instagram profile pic. In fact, you should do one in front of the Hollywood sign in LA tree in your palm. That would that would be dope. [01:38:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, go put that on my next list. [01:38:57] Speaker C: Awesome. We'll go with a wrap up question. What advice would you give someone looking to deepen their appreciation for bonsai? [01:39:14] Speaker B: So you go, I guess I'll go. Since Julian don't want to talk right now, he's giving us the big dog, right? So what does it mean for them to appreciate? Is like what they could do to like you more or what is that? I don't really understand question. [01:39:32] Speaker C: Basically, if someone wants to learn more about the aesthetics of bonsai, what gives bonsai value? If they want to improve their knowledge of what does a good bonsai look like, what would you tell that person to do? [01:39:49] Speaker B: Oh, bro, for me it's simple, bro. Because this is what I did, right? I saw somebody. Somebody's trees. And I literally was like, how the hell did this guy do this? Right? And I literally want to learn how he did this. So I hit him up and pulled up, you know, saying, luckily, most bonsai professionals or whatever are pretty cool people. To where they're not gonna tell you no, or they're not gonna be like, no, you can't come, or whatever. So I would say definitely you. And, you know, there's different professionals. Everybody does things a little different. The reason I'm with Peter T, is because when I went to his garden and I saw his trees, bruh, you feel me? And it's like at the time I was. I was still kind of newish into bonsai. And the first thing I remember thinking when I saw Peter Streets was how I was seeing these videos on YouTube of this Japan shows. And it was, they weren't even English videos, right? They were Japanese videos. They're talking in Japanese. The first thing that came to my head, I swear when I saw Peter's garden was, what the hell? This looks like the trees that I'm looking at on YouTube, right? Because at that time I wasn't really like going to like, like, like a bunch of professional nurseries, right? Only a couple. And he was definitely where I was like, how the hell does this guy do this? Like, like, I definitely want to learn. And bro, I just. Maybe I was a little annoying or something, but I hit him up and I hit him up, you know what I'm saying? How do I find out? Or when can I pull up and learn? How do I learn this? How you do this? And you know, it starts off slow, right? You go to the garden, help them do a little, some. Some here and there. And then the more you're There, the more you do and the more you're there, the more you should pay attention. And, you know, it's funny. I tell Peter sometimes it might not seem like it, but every time I go, I pay attention, you know? And sometimes it's not just on what he's telling you. It's what you see him doing, or he's telling somebody else maybe, or you kind of just pick up on these little things here and there. So I definitely feel like you definitely need to find somebody that you like what he does. It doesn't matter who he is in terms of if people know him or not. You. You feel me? I go back to what I was saying earlier, bro. I don't care how strict this person is doing bonsai. If you like what you see and you're thinking, dude, I want those trees in my garden, then you go with that person and you chill with them and you learn with them and you help them out. And by you helping them out, they're helping you out because you learning, you're learning how to. How to do what. What they do, you know? So that's literally the biggest thing I could say, because that's what I did, bro. I drove and I still, to this day, bro, I'm driving, you know, four hours there, four hours back, you know, for the weekend, for the day, for every time I get that I got some free time. I'm driving out there because it's what I want to learn or who I want to learn with, right? Or the. The things I want to learn is with that dude. And I'm willing to drive for it. And if you're serious about it, then you should be willing to drive for it, because there's not a bonus that professional out here in Sequoia National Forest, you feel me? I got. I gotta drive for it. And just like you should drive for anything in life, not just bonsai. You feel me? If there's something you want to do, something, you, you, you, you you think this is cool or whatever, and I kind of want to learn how to do it, bro. Go out of your way and do it, bro. Because just like I said later, you know, I'm only 30, okay? I'm gonna be 31 next month or in two months. And I know I'm not old, but, bro, for some weird reason, I just keep thinking all these weird, like, if I was old, right? So now I'm thinking, yes, go out of your way and do something you want to do, bro. Because you don't know how long you got and if you're, you're in, in the hospital bed next month and, and, and guess what you learned that you about to go. You're gonna think back like, damn, bro, I should have drove those two hours and done this for a little bit and this and that. Because life is short, bro. No matter how we want to think, think it's, it's, it's forever. But sadly it's not. And bro, you gotta do what you gotta do, bro. If you, if you about something, go for it, bro. Because it's all about you at the end of the day, bro. Make yourself happy, you know, learn something you want to learn and, and just go for it, bro. And like I said, most professionals are not gonna tell you no or, you know, they're most. I've never haven't met a bad person in bones that you know saying, yeah, we will leave it at that. [01:44:18] Speaker C: Nice. Yeah, I definitely agree. You're gonna. When you're sitting there. As for me, when I'm sitting there and I'm an older person, I don't want to be regretting things in my life. I want to look back and I want to make sure that I did the things that I wanted to do. And so I 100 agree with you there. And I think you're totally in the right spot with Peter T. Can't, can't argue with that. So preach, man. [01:44:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think anybody. Yeah, yeah, we. I learned so much. Not just in terms of the final product, but the in between. You feel me? It's with him that I learned how to let these branches grow for two, three years. Matter of fact, I have a cork elm that when I first started going with him. So it's been more than three years. So it was around when I first started going with him that I learned about all this or that I started seeing how some of his trees have these big ass branches going to the side and they're just, you know, three, four, five foot long. And you know, I started to realize, or as he's teaching me, why he's doing it, right, well, you gotta let this grow for this amount of time, whatever. So when I first started, I had this cork elm and I had already kind of worked on it, right? And so that got me in my head, you know what? I'm gonna grow out these main branches. This bottom branch, bruh, the bottom branch, what's gonna be the first branch, Quote, unquote, whatever you want to say. I just cut like two months ago. I've been growing it since like around the time I started going with Peter. So it took like three years of growing. And you know, I learned. I learned. Or maybe not learned, but I realized I love to see a long ass, six foot branch. You feel me? Because when I'm seeing this six footer, I know, I know what's going on. It's like, dude, and it's funny, right? People go to my garden and see like, oh, this tree is like, does not look like a bonsai, right? Like just as long as branches. And I'm explaining to them, bro, but trip on this, right in this so and so X and X, I cut this off. Look at this branch, bro. Right? So now this branch that I grew for three years, trip on this, it's about to start corking up. So if I didn't grow this thing for three years, who knows how long it would have took for it, if ever to cork up just by starting to just ramify being a year old or so, you know? So I definitely am blessed and happy that I got to meet Peter because it opened up my eyes to how to do bonsai, right? And then that's on me, right? My personal trees, I'm doing it right. And like I said, when I do workshops and this and that, if you don't want to, that's 100%, 100% fine with me. Because, you know, one time I said in a demo, and I wasn't lying, you know, and maybe people didn't understand what I meant and I said, somebody asked me a weird question, I said, you know, we're in Cali, we're not in Japan. And I mean it. You feel me? You don't got to be so anal about all these guidelines and this and the left and, and the right and this, bro, do what makes you happy. And you know, that speaks volume. And at the end of the day, you don't got to follow every single rule. If you follow a couple, you're going to end up with a, with a cool looking tree, at least, you know, something decent, you know what I'm saying? So, yeah, I definitely, I love, I love the process of doing things right. And, and, and it also takes a lot of time to do things right, which is why I only have like, like 10 personal trees, I think, because I do not have the time to be working on trees like that, you know? [01:47:51] Speaker C: For sure, for sure. Yep. Cool. [01:47:58] Speaker B: Julian. [01:48:00] Speaker A: You know, you, you guys pretty much covered it pretty well. I mean, you know, with you, you want to learn and, and, and get deeper into something. I mean, ultimately it's it's like the time you put in it, right, is you know, watching videos is only going to get you so far. If, if it's something you're real interested in, then you, you seek out people and resources and like Cesar was saying, you know, most of the professionals will be pretty friendly. You like reach out to them, see their gardens, nurseries, and you just get like an opportunity, right, to see something that somebody's been working on for many years and, and done at a good level. If you had to like learn everything the brute force way yourself in bonsai, like I need to like, like you had to be like, oh, what will my branch look like if I grow it for one year or if I cut it? This, I mean you will die basically before you test out all the scenarios, right? Something about a lot of bonsai technique. It's like, it's like anecdotal but like this like generational experience, right of people, they grow trees, they know how it responds and you keep building upon the technique and experience. So there's like a lot of value. You, you seek out like, right, you, you just, you can just like something about their trees or maybe you seek out like professionals that essentially they're learning from this like multi generational pool of knowledge. And, and you can, you can benefit from that, right? And, but it's, it's not just like bonsai just write anything you, you want to do and in the end it's just going to take time. And so it's not to say like oh, to enjoy and get better at bonsai. It's like ah, you know, I've got to put 10 hours a day, you know, it's, it's going to be different for everybody, like what you have time for and what your goal is. And, but I think as long as you're interested and you're making that effort, it's like even if it's a little bit. So I kind of like believe this is more like bonsai philosophy. Even if the, the progress is, is incremental. If you're, you're always undertaking some kind of effort, right, that's like for the embedding your future or your knowledge or whatever. I mean, because bonsai is like a time based practice, you're just going to get slowly better and better and better and that's way, way more important than just like, like say you get too caught up on like ego or like I need to be at some kind of level as soon as possible and you're stuck on that mindset. Then like year after year is going to come by and you're doing the same thing every year. And sooner than later, it's like 30 years, it's passed and it's kind of like what did I do at that time? So even if it's like small, it doesn't matter. It's like you can appreciate and cultivate your knowledge and experience in bonsai. [01:51:27] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I think it's, it's cool that you mentioned the YouTube thing, cuz a hundred percent. I started watching YouTube when I first. That's how I got into bonsai. Right, the YouTube videos. [01:51:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:51:36] Speaker B: And you definitely will understand a lot of things on YouTube, but it's a hundred percent true what people say. You're not gonna get it unless you do it hands on. And I learned that from experience. And by over that I mean when I went, it's like I knew at some level I knew what they were talking about, but I had no idea how to execute it. Right. Because I never done it before. I just saw the videos of it and it seems like I know, but then once you're there, it's like, oh crap. You know, it's actually, it's actually more to it than just quick little wire video, you know, saying. And so yeah, watch Julian's videos, watch Adam's videos. You know, they, they do not watch my videos, bro. They're not educational. I didn't do it to, to educate people. You know, actually it's funny, I did it for fun, just to see the progress on my trees. And for some weird reason here and there, I kept getting subscribers. Subscribers. And I don't know how people like my shit, but there's a lot of good YouTubers out there. Like I said, Julian and Adam, they're getting down. They know how to explain things. And there's a lot of bad YouTubers out there, probably a lot more. So you gotta watch. [01:52:45] Speaker C: Oh boy. Awesome. Well, I think we can end it on that. I really enjoyed talking with you guys. Thank you so much for your time. I really, really appreciate it. I love hanging out with you guys. Both of you guys are awesome. Had so much fun down in SoCal the other weekend. Julian, fantastic job again on the Naka Memorial show. I hope we get to hang out more in the future. And I would love to do this again, I think. Yeah, please give me feedback and like we'll, we'll, we'll use the, the slow incremental progress method on this podcast and like refine it. I think a little bit was a little bit choppy and. And rough, but I think we'll get it in the future. Please let me know your thoughts, though, in terms of, like, how we could improve it and, like, what order we should do things in, what topics we should hit on, things like that. I would love to know that. So cool. [01:53:47] Speaker B: I appreciate you for the invite, and hell yeah, we do need to chill again. That. It's always fun. It's always fun, for sure. [01:53:56] Speaker C: Awesome. [01:53:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:53:58] Speaker B: Shout out to Adam. He's nice right now, but. [01:54:02] Speaker C: Appreciate it, man. Cool. All right, guys. Hey, great talking to you. I hope to. Hope to talk to you again really, really soon. [01:54:11] Speaker B: Hell, yeah. Likewise. [01:54:12] Speaker C: Awesome. [01:54:13] Speaker B: Take care. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Who.