[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: Is sponsored by the John Naka Memorial Exhibit, formerly the Nan Pukai exhibit. This show is going down August 16th and 17th, 2025 at the George Dosaki Gallery in Los Angeles. It's the only juried show in Southern California. Anybody can submit Trees. The goal is to have a small but high quality show with free entry for the public. You can find out more
[email protected] once again, that's NACA memorial exhibit dot com.
I am absolutely looking forward to this show and I hope to see you there.
[00:00:46] Speaker A: To baby trees.
The Black Pondo Podcast.
Bonsai. Bonsai.
[00:01:01] Speaker B: Bonsai.
The Black Pondo Podcast.
What was your first bonsai book?
[00:01:09] Speaker A: Oh, it was. It was like a sunset.
[00:01:12] Speaker B: I had the garden one.
[00:01:13] Speaker A: Yeah. I went to a thrift store and found a bunch of. A bunch of them. You know, the Bonsai with American Trees.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:21] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, all the information was like, not really what we would follow today.
But yeah, I was excited at the time about it.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: I feel like books up until now have been pretty. Not the best resource for learning bonsai. I mean, they just have always seemed a little bit outdated and a little bit underwhelming. But have you checked out Jonas's new book?
[00:01:43] Speaker A: I have, yeah. I have a copy of it that Peter gave me, actually, and I haven't read the whole thing yet, but it seems like the way it's designed is. Is really good. It seems like it's more meant to, you know, help people kind of think through what they' doing rather than just giving, you know, prescriptive instructions.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I feel like it's a really solid foundation of knowledge. I wish if I would have had that one instead of the sunset book.
[00:02:07] Speaker A: I feel like it would have just.
[00:02:08] Speaker B: Leveled me up right away. It's really well done. I feel like he did an awesome job. And a lot of the pictures are from Peter's backyard. Peter T's backyard, it looks like.
[00:02:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there's a lot of those truths in the book.
[00:02:21] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Peter and Jeff's trees. I. I noticed.
[00:02:24] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, primarily Jeff's trees that Peter has worked on with Jeff for a long time.
[00:02:29] Speaker B: Awesome. Very cool. And so how old are you now and how old were you when you got into bonsai?
[00:02:33] Speaker A: I'm 34 now and so I was.
What is that, like 20? 28.
[00:02:40] Speaker B: 28. Okay.
[00:02:41] Speaker A: 27. I don't actually. Something around there. Yeah, it was 2018, I think. So however old I was.
[00:02:46] Speaker B: Sweet. Okay.
[00:02:47] Speaker A: It's that year.
[00:02:48] Speaker B: And then did you get into clubs or like, as bonsai progressed for you. And when did the. The Japanese gardening come into play?
[00:02:57] Speaker A: Yeah, it happened very soon afterwards. So I started, you know, I just got interested and started taking horticulture classes. Okay. At Merritt College in Oakland.
And I was kind of feeling ready for a career change from doing music full time, never going outside in the daylight kind of thing.
So. Yeah. And I kind of looked at some jobs and it was everything said like, oh, if you take classes from Merit College, we'll basically like hire you. So.
So, yeah, I did. I took. I started taking classes there and within like two weeks, I responded to an ad for someone who needed just someone to help in their garden, an older woman.
And that ended up being Bet Neary, who had. She also did. Bonsai had like a really nice Japanese garden that was built by Bill Castellan.
[00:03:48] Speaker B: Wow. Oh.
[00:03:49] Speaker A: And so, yeah, so just like, right from the get go, I like, kind of got involved in that and she, you know, really helped me get.
Hooked me up with the club, both for the Bonsai Club, which. The East Bay Bonsai Club, and also with the Aesthetic Pruning Club and. And the Aesthetic Fruiting association, so.
[00:04:06] Speaker B: Oh, that's so cool.
[00:04:07] Speaker A: Yeah, so she really helped me get, you know, just into it really quickly and I'm. And yeah, and from doing stuff at Merritt College, I was able to, you know, get a lot of hands on experience working with trees and horticulture and all that.
[00:04:22] Speaker B: Awesome. Very nice. And then. So how did you end up linking up with Peter T. It was after.
[00:04:27] Speaker A: I'd moved to Folsom.
I actually, I was pruning a tree for a client and she, I guess, was communicating with someone about study group with Peter. She was like. And she just asked me, she was like, oh, would you be interested in being in this study group? We need one more person. I was just like, yes, definitely. Because I had become familiar with Peter's work at that time and I was kind of new in the area, needed a teacher. And yeah, I was like, obviously, I would love to study Peter.
[00:04:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:56] Speaker A: So.
So, yeah, I was in that study group for a while before I started the apprenticeship.
[00:05:01] Speaker B: Okay. And so how long have you been an apprentice under Peter T. Now?
[00:05:06] Speaker A: So I started full time in October, pretty much the week before the Expo. So what is that, like six months about?
[00:05:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:15] Speaker A: But I actually started kind of part time apprenticing for him in March last year.
So I was coming between two and four days a week.
[00:05:24] Speaker B: That's fantastic.
[00:05:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:26] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:05:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:27] Speaker B: Would you say your goal is to become A bonsai professional after the apprenticeship.
[00:05:32] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. That's the goal. Yeah.
[00:05:34] Speaker B: Fantastic. Love it. Yeah. Peter and I, we were podcasting last night and we, we've been talking about how it just seems to both of us that there could be a, a lot of room for a lot more bonsai professionals, especially in California. There's just such a large population, there's so much interest and I think that professionals are really driving the quality of bonsai forward and I think that there's a lot of room for, for them. And so I think that you're in a perfect spot and really excited to hear that.
[00:06:06] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah, I hope, I hope that's true. It seems true to me too.
[00:06:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:10] Speaker B: Is there, at this point in your bonsai journey, is there like what, what would you imagine, what are your long term goals with bonsai or what, what would you imag imagine your future with bonsai to look like?
[00:06:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I'm still open to, you know, my preferences changing and everything, but right now I'm kind of leaning towards, you know, having my own garden where I can, you know, work on high level trees, both of my own, and clients, of course, and probably doing a mix of teaching, you know, working with clients, maybe developing and selling trees. And I think I want, probably want to do not as a full time thing, but I think I'd like to do some collecting and growing maybe one or the other. We'll see how time works out. Yeah, I think I'd like to, you know, somehow be getting new material out there as well.
[00:07:00] Speaker B: That's great. Yeah, I mean, that's another massive hole, I feel like in the area that we need. The bonsai community.
[00:07:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:08] Speaker B: Is we need really good material.
I kind of feel like we more so need people growing trees from seed cutting and air layer trunks. Although collecting, we can't use it, you know, too much high quality yamadori as well. We've got some really good collectors. I feel like there's just not. There are people that are growing trees and a lot of younger things, but I think just like producing really high quality trunks is something that we are lacking. There's just not enough people doing that.
[00:07:36] Speaker A: Definitely. Yeah. We could have like 10 times as much, I think, and we would still want more.
[00:07:42] Speaker B: Absolutely. So tell me, why did you pick Peter T?
[00:07:50] Speaker A: I mean, so when I was at the Pacific Bonsai Expo, the first one, I had heard of Peter and I kind of knew who he was and people talked very highly of him in the Bay Area, but I just kept walking up to different trees and being like, oh, this. I really like this tree. Who's this? Oh, Jeff Stern. Then I walk up to another mod. Oh, this tree's really cool. Who's this? Oh, Jeff Stern.
[00:08:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:14] Speaker A: You know, it just kept, you know, being one, one after another, either Jeff's trees or one of Peter's other clients. And it seemed really clear to me that he was maybe the most technically advanced bonsai practitioner, to my eye.
[00:08:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:28] Speaker A: And also, you know, he's local to where I was, so that made a huge difference.
[00:08:33] Speaker B: Most definitely, yeah.
Is there something particular about his trees that you find really attractive?
[00:08:46] Speaker A: That's interesting. That's an interesting question. I feel like what really makes Peter's trees great is the culmination of, like, all of the attention to detail in all the different aspects of the tree that leads to that really high level of refinement. I guess that's what I'd say. It's. The level of refinement is really what I think sets him apart.
[00:09:05] Speaker B: Yes, I completely agree with you.
Hard to explain all the nuances and the fine detail of what he's able to achieve, but, yeah, his trees are just on a. On an incredible level.
[00:09:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, totally. And there's such a diversity, too, of species that he's really good with.
He's really good with juniper. He's also great with deciduous. His work with redwoods is amazing.
[00:09:33] Speaker B: Oaks, you know, just completely agree.
[00:09:36] Speaker A: Seems good at all.
[00:09:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, most definitely. He's got a very wide range. And also horticulturally, I mean, just everything in the garden always looks incredible.
[00:09:48] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:09:49] Speaker B: People bring him sick trees all the time and he's just always rebounding those trees and getting them back into health, which I don't know if he likes doing that or not. I'm not sure, but he's really good at it.
[00:10:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't think he minds doing it at all.
[00:10:02] Speaker B: Yeah, that's great.
Awesome. And so what is. What's a day to day look like as an apprentice under Peter T. Well.
[00:10:14] Speaker A: I usually show up at 8 o' clock and if Peter is here, I just do whatever he tells me all day.
No, it's a really wide variety of things. You know, like today and yesterday I've just been helping, like, put down mulch and stuff in the courtyard, kind of making that look nice. So there's some, like, garden upkeep tasks, but there's a lot of tree work too, that he has me doing. So right now it's like a lot of defoliating, pinching, cutting back that Kind of thing. I mean. Yeah, it's hard. Every day is different. Really. Some days we'll go drive somewhere to look at trees that someone has for sale or something like that. Yeah. Or, you know, going to a show or something.
Yeah, it's different every day, so. Which is really nice.
[00:10:55] Speaker B: Has your apprenticeship changed since you first. First started? Like when you were back in. When you were just part time compared to now?
[00:11:03] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. And Peter trusts me with a lot more stuff. I have a little more responsibility when Peter is away working with clients and things. A lot of times I stay here and I'm in charge of watering the garden and that kind of thing. Whereas before he would just run the irrigation system.
Yeah, he leaves me trees to work on, things like that. Just generally more responsibility. Yeah, yeah. And a little more trust, I think.
[00:11:25] Speaker B: Great. I didn't ask you what are your favorite types of trees, your favorite species?
[00:11:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it kind of changes depending on what I'm working on, you know. So, like, right now we're doing a lot of deciduous stuff and I'm feeling excited about deciduous trees. But.
Yeah, I think kind of like we've talked about before, I really love oaks. That might be my favorite, but. Yeah, I don't know. I really enjoy pines too.
Junipers obviously have a lot to offer.
Yeah.
[00:11:54] Speaker B: Nice. So you like the majority of the types of trees Peter has in his yard?
[00:11:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I don't think there's. I don't think there's any type of tree that I dislike.
[00:12:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:12:04] Speaker A: They hold their own interest.
[00:12:06] Speaker B: That's great. And you were telling me earlier, particularly though you're very interested in California natives, would you say?
[00:12:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I would.
Although it's interesting, though, we were talking about that kind of in the context of plants in general.
I feel like the reasons to go natives in a garden are very different than for bonsai, because, you know, in your garden you grow them because, well, they're just easy to grow if they're growing them where they. In the right, you know, spot they would naturally grow in. You basically don't have to worry about pests.
There's almost no pest or like, disease management a little bit, you know, especially during establishment.
And then they also have a lot of, like, wildlife value. So we're trying to attract like, birds and pollinators, caterpillars.
But yeah, with bonsai, all of that kind of changes once you put it in a pot. Oh, also like being drought tolerant.
[00:13:00] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a big part of it.
[00:13:02] Speaker A: A native plan in a pot. Suddenly like. Like Oaks, you have to water them a ton, so that's a lot of reason to do it. Yeah, yeah.
[00:13:10] Speaker B: Whereas oaks are pretty self sufficient in terms of watering. Right. I mean.
[00:13:13] Speaker A: Yeah, they can be very drought tolerant, very low water once they're established.
[00:13:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's like a lot of California natives, like manzanita as well. You water them for the first year and then really back off. Right?
[00:13:27] Speaker A: That's kind of exactly. Yeah. Two years, you water it a little more. But yeah, but yeah, you can't do that with bonsai. Those adaptations just like aren't in place when they're in a little pot and for sure. Yeah, you don't really. It's not really helpful to have like caterpillars eating your plants.
[00:13:42] Speaker B: Yeah, bonsai, that is true.
[00:13:45] Speaker A: And they, you know, the, they become more susceptible to pests too. So it's interesting that like all those reasons kind of change.
So I really like, I still really like them, but it's more just because like they're just plants that I like that I see that I think are in the landscape.
[00:14:00] Speaker B: How did you get into California natives?
[00:14:02] Speaker A: There was a lot of that going on at Merritt College.
[00:14:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:04] Speaker A: When I was there and I mean, it just seemed so, like, it seemed very clear that it was like just a very functional and also beneficial way to garden. So I just got into that. You know, I took some classes with some of the people that specialize in native plants and just Sweet.
[00:14:21] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. When I was young, I joined Boy Scouts and we got into backpacking. I was really lucky. My Scout master was his passion was backpacking and his son was like my age. And so he took all these little Boy Scouts out all over California primarily. We would go to the Sierra, all over the Sierra, and then also around locally. Los Padres National Forest is on the central coast.
[00:14:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:49] Speaker B: And so I think without really realizing, I would see all the native plants on our backpacking trips and hikes. And I wasn't that into it back then when I was a little kid, but I think as I got older, it just helped to help me to appreciate all those. So I've always been really into California natives. And then after college when I got into bonsai, I was into California natives again. And there's this really cool native nursery called Las Palitas.
[00:15:17] Speaker A: Oh, I know them from their website.
[00:15:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, they have a cool website that they've built over a long period of time with lots of good info.
And so I go up there and I talk to the owner of the nursery and she helps me out gives me tips and I buy a bunch of trees from her or little plants for. Mostly for accents now, but I was trying to make a bunch of it bonsai. And she would always tell me that I'm a tree torturer.
[00:15:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So you know, people think that.
[00:15:47] Speaker B: Totally. Yeah.
Well, that's cool. And so you do California native gardening, but you have a Japanese influence in the, in the gardens that you've designed.
[00:16:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So. So I do like stone work too, which I also learned. You know Bill. Bill Castellan, who I mentioned earlier, but he's a really amazing garden builder. His Japanese garden builder.
[00:16:13] Speaker B: Incredible. Do you know where he studied or how he got so talented?
[00:16:18] Speaker A: Yeah. So he.
I worked with Mossy Mizumi.
[00:16:21] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:16:22] Speaker A: And.
And that I think is how he first got into it.
And I believe he's also gone to Japan quite a few times to study. So I haven't like worked with Bill a ton, but he teaches a class through the pruning club that's just like a one day class where he goes over the techniques for moving boulders and things like that. So I took that from him. And then kind of at the same time, my wife was working as a stonemason.
[00:16:46] Speaker B: No way.
[00:16:46] Speaker A: Yeah. For a company that built like really nice. Like more like retaining walls and patios and that kind of thing. And that guy actually also studied in Japan. He also kind of had a more traditional Western stone background, I think. So I learned a lot from my wife also.
[00:17:03] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
[00:17:04] Speaker A: But yeah. And then also, you know, I've read a lot of books and things.
[00:17:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:08] Speaker A: And so I try to, you know, use all those design concepts in my garden designs, but, you know, using all native plants and then, you know, they end up. There's a lot of functional things about Japanese gardens that don't work for most people. Like just the maintenance is very high for a Japanese garden. That's part of what makes it so special. But most people, at least my clients that I've had, they can't. They don't want to do that kind of upkeep. So yeah, that.
[00:17:32] Speaker B: It's very understandable.
[00:17:33] Speaker A: Forms a lot of the design too.
So that wouldn't really call my gardens Japanese gardens, but there is a. I. I take pretty much all of my design cues from Japanese garden concepts. Yeah.
[00:17:43] Speaker B: Yeah. I really actually, like, I'm into that. And I feel like my little bonsai sanctuary area has a lot of that going on. I have made like my. The main plant that I have is manzanita, which is one of my favorite California natives.
[00:18:00] Speaker A: Yeah. And so much character.
[00:18:02] Speaker B: Absolutely. And so I think I'm kind of going for, like, a California native type space, but also with a Japanese influence, because I love Japanese gardens as well. But I don't want a straight up Japanese garden, traditional Japanese garden. So I think that's so cool. And I really like that. I've seen Bill Castello. Is that how you say Castellan? Bill Castellan. He has an Instagram and a Facebook that I follow. And I just love looking at his work. And he's done some things where he mixes, like, manzanita with these cool boulders, and then there's like, a black pine and this really nice stonework. And it just, I think it goes really well. It flows really well together.
[00:18:48] Speaker A: Yeah, his work's really amazing. Yeah. And, yeah, I've actually heard from a couple people, including Bill, I think, who've done, like, landscaping apprenticeships in Japan, that, you know, people over there are saying, like, why are you using Japanese plants? You should be using your own plants.
[00:19:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:02] Speaker A: And, you know, evoking your own landscape.
[00:19:04] Speaker B: Because that makes sense.
[00:19:05] Speaker A: In Japan, a Japanese garden is mostly a native garden.
[00:19:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So totally.
Yeah. Well, shoot. At some point, I want you to come to my house and give me some, like, we should talk about it. I could hire you and you can give me some tips and we can move some things around. I know we were talking about boulder placement.
[00:19:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:26] Speaker B: Which I, I thought was really cool. Like, I, I, I guess always try and place boulders in odd numbers.
[00:19:36] Speaker A: That's a good. Yeah, it's like a good rule of thumb.
[00:19:38] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:19:39] Speaker A: It's kind of like putting, you know, trees in a forest planting. You know, you kind of want to, especially when you're at, like, lower numbers, it really matters when you get, like, above, I don't know, six boulders in a space. It kind of doesn't matter as much. You know, I feel like you don't pick up on it, but.
[00:19:55] Speaker B: Yeah. What other tips do you have for boulder placement? I know you have a lot of experience with placings, big stones.
[00:20:04] Speaker A: Trying to think of how to express this simply.
I think a lot of, like, in patterns of scaling, triangles, if that makes sense.
So I'll go back a little bit. First, you want to figure, you want to identify, like, really strong points of interest in your garden. So these are going to be points that you see out the window, like, of your main living spaces, and especially points that you see from multiple places.
So those are going to be the most important points. And that might be a place where you put your Key boulder, like, your biggest boulder.
And then you can kind of place the other boulders according to that. And so that's when I start thinking about, like, scaling triangles. So I try to always keep the distances between one boulder between different boulders. Different.
And kind of on different planes. So they're not, like, in a line.
[00:21:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:01] Speaker A: And also use boulders at different sizes and shapes. You can use a lot of boulders in similar shapes, too. That actually can be a really cool effect. But, yeah, different sizes is definitely important. It's easy to get, like, a bunch of boulders that are the same size, and then you just don't have that, like, dynamic feeling when you put them together. So. Yeah, I mean, there's more to it.
[00:21:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:24] Speaker A: But, yeah, that's kind of really basic thing. And you can kind of think of, like, you can kind of think of.
You know, there's like, a really classic three boulder arrangement that you'll see in a lot of gardens where you have one large boulder, then you kind of have a smaller boulder to each side.
[00:21:42] Speaker B: But they're at different distances, so some asymmetry going on. Okay.
[00:21:47] Speaker A: And so you can kind of take that same pattern and use it over and over again. So, like, you might do that with three boulders, and you might take another one of those smaller boulders and do the same kind of arrangement with that. So you kind of just end up with really. It's just like, try not to put things in a line or equally space.
[00:22:04] Speaker B: That totally makes sense.
[00:22:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:06] Speaker B: And then I was thinking in my garden, I didn't want just groups of three, you know, So I have, like a group of five. One over here, three over here, stuff like that.
[00:22:15] Speaker A: Yeah. That's a good way to do it. Yeah. You don't want to just make it look contrived. Like you just have the arrangements of three everywhere.
[00:22:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:22] Speaker A: Be a little strange.
[00:22:23] Speaker B: Maybe someday. Part of your business mix. And I know you're kind of doing this already, and you and Peter were just building some monkey poles to put trees on in Peter's garden. But I think it'd be really cool if you consulted or built Bonsai Japanese gardens for clients in the future. That could be awesome.
[00:22:42] Speaker A: Yeah, that could be fun. It does take a lot of. I mean, I'm gonna have to see how much time I have.
[00:22:46] Speaker B: For sure. For sure.
[00:22:47] Speaker A: I mean, it sounds super fun.
[00:22:48] Speaker B: I'm just signing you up for things.
[00:22:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:50] Speaker B: Whoa.
[00:22:51] Speaker A: No, I mean, like, honestly, I've thought of that before. It would be really fun.
[00:22:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm just, you know, spitballing ideas really Actually, I do think that it's really important to hone your skills and focus in on things as opposed to just be like a super broad generalist.
[00:23:08] Speaker A: Totally.
[00:23:08] Speaker B: It's easy to fall into that trap.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: I'm kind of realizing that I've actually stopped doing really garden building stuff for the time being.
[00:23:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:15] Speaker A: Mostly focusing on just. Well, mostly just bonsai. And when I do have time to work on a day off, I'll probably be doing pruning because that's just like I can go for a day, prune something and. And that is done.
[00:23:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So you're still doing a little bit of aesthetic pruning, right?
[00:23:32] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right.
[00:23:33] Speaker B: Landscaping trees. Sweet.
[00:23:35] Speaker A: Yep. Yep.
[00:23:36] Speaker B: Awesome.
So let's see.
I'll probably edit this part out. Sometimes I do this and I'm like, yeah, what do we want to talk about?
[00:23:52] Speaker A: Well, it's great that we can do that.
[00:23:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Cool. So I guess just. I'm curious, would you talk to me a little bit about moving stones really quick? And then I want to get back into bonsai. But I'm curious. You were talking to me about how you move stones, and I didn't really understand that this was common practice. But what tools do you use to move big boulders?
[00:24:13] Speaker A: So I use a tripod hoist and rollers most of the time.
[00:24:17] Speaker B: Okay. And can you kind of break down for someone that doesn't know what that is? What does it look like?
[00:24:22] Speaker A: Yeah. So the tripod hoist. So I have the sort of. The cheap version of it I have. Mine is three 12 foot tall, four by fours that I joined together to make a tripod. And then hang a chain hoist from it.
[00:24:39] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:24:39] Speaker A: Like.
[00:24:39] Speaker B: So think like a. Like three sticks that basically form like a teepee shape.
[00:24:45] Speaker A: Yeah. And then a pulley in the middle.
[00:24:46] Speaker B: And a pulley in the middle. Okay, sweet.
[00:24:49] Speaker A: And then.
So the rollers that I use are actually. I got all this from Bill, by the way. Yeah. From his class is a.
So the rollers. Yeah, they're actually a industrial conveyor.
[00:25:04] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:25:05] Speaker A: So there's like really heavy duty rollers that.
And so what you do with those is you take. You put them upside down on like a wooden track. So you take like two by eights, just like thick lumber, and you make a track out of them, wherever you want to go.
And then you put the stone on those upside down.
[00:25:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:25] Speaker A: So that the rollers are on the track. And then you can. It's like almost frictionless when you push it.
[00:25:29] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:25:30] Speaker A: So generally the Process is using the tripod hoist to pick up the boulder and put it on that whenever you're moving it a significant distance, and then you push it where you need to go, and then you pick it up again with the hoist, and then you position it exactly how you want.
[00:25:43] Speaker B: Ah, okay. So that is very cool. And I think that the tripod is actually something that I would like to get, not only for moving boulders, but I've been Recently watching on YouTube these Japanese gardening channels.
[00:26:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I watched those two.
[00:26:01] Speaker B: You do?
[00:26:01] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:26:02] Speaker B: And so I saw these guys collect a big Japanese black pine in the landscape. Yeah, it was, like, actually, it was growing out in a field, and they wanted to collect the tree, and it was very big. It was, like, I don't know, probably 10ft tall or so.
Really heavy big tree. And it was just growing in a. In a field somewhere. They wanted to put it into a Japanese landscape, and. And so they used a tripod to collect it, which I thought was kind of cool.
[00:26:31] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I've actually done that kind of thing. I mean, I used to also use it to transplant trees for people sometimes.
[00:26:37] Speaker B: Oh, sweet.
[00:26:38] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah.
[00:26:38] Speaker B: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
[00:26:40] Speaker A: Yeah, it's one of the things that. Yeah, they come in super handy for. Also, we used one to repot one of the trees at the bonsai garden at Lake Merritt. It's a big Sierra juniper in front.
[00:26:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. Oh, yeah, that's rad.
[00:26:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bill came and brought his tripod, which is.
He actually has one of these fabricated aluminum ones which are so much nicer.
[00:27:01] Speaker B: To use because they're light but super strong.
[00:27:05] Speaker A: Yeah, they're light. They're strong. They have adjustable legs, so they're just kind of. They're better in every way, really. But, yeah, so we just, you know, pulled, like, strapped it around the tree, and, you know, after raking around the sides, just pulled it up out of the pot with that, because this would have been super heavy.
[00:27:20] Speaker B: So you're talking about the. The big juniper. Is it a California?
[00:27:25] Speaker A: Oh, it is a California.
[00:27:26] Speaker B: I think.
[00:27:26] Speaker A: I think I said it's a Sierra, but, yeah, it's a California.
[00:27:28] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:27:29] Speaker A: I'm pretty sure.
[00:27:29] Speaker B: Yeah. I can't remember off top of my head, I did see pictures of it, and I think I saw, like, an initial styling at a GSBF convention of that tree, like, like, many years ago.
[00:27:40] Speaker A: I think someone was talking about that. Okay, so that sounds. That's right. I think. Yeah.
[00:27:45] Speaker B: If it. If I'm. And this could be the wrong tree, but it was Harry Har, and I think his friends had collected it, and then they, like, did an initial styling at an old GSBF convention, maybe 2007 or eight or something like that. I can't remember. I have a horrible memory for things like that.
But that's so cool. And that is a massive tree. That's like a landscape tree. And it sits in a bathtub, essentially.
[00:28:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:15] Speaker B: Old side pot. So you guys repotted that with Peter T. And you used a tripod. So essentially, you lift the tree up with the tripod, you work on the roots, get the pot ready, put the soil in, put the pot back, and then put the tree back in. How was that experience for you guys?
[00:28:33] Speaker A: It was good, you know, I mean, it actually was a lot quicker than it seemed like it would have been.
Yeah, I mean, getting it out was pretty easy with the tripod. I mean, Bill is a real expert with it, so he just, like, immediately knew where to, you know, put the straps, and it just balanced perfectly. We took it off of. We didn't have it in the air while we worked on it or anything. We put it on a cart and just did it like normal.
Yeah. I think we had, like, three people helping, so it went pretty quick.
[00:29:04] Speaker B: Great.
[00:29:04] Speaker A: Then they rebuilt the deck underneath it while we did that, which took quite a while, so we actually just mostly made it around. Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, strapped it back to the tripod and lowered it back into the pot.
[00:29:17] Speaker B: Sweet.
[00:29:17] Speaker A: It was basically a normal repot, just bigger.
[00:29:19] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I feel like, shoot, I need a tripod now. Aluminum tripod now.
[00:29:24] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's nice to have the aluminum ones. Yeah.
[00:29:28] Speaker B: Did he. So he had that custom made for him, you think?
[00:29:31] Speaker A: No, I don't think so. Okay. That you can buy them. They're not cheap. I think the. The big ones are like six grand or something, but there's a smaller one that's, like a couple grand. I think they're more expensive than they used to be. I wish I bought one right when I got into it.
[00:29:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:47] Speaker A: Because they were cheaper.
[00:29:48] Speaker B: Well, I'm thinking for collecting trees, I field growing a bunch of stuff right now. There was one ume trunk that I had to. That I used my van to basically, like, slowly pull over. Like, I would just.
[00:30:01] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:30:02] Speaker B: Barely move a little bit. And I tied it with a rope onto the back of my van, and then I would dig a little bit, and then I would, like, go another inch, and then I would dig under it. But, like, a tripod would have worked well for that. Or like we both are into collecting oaks and I think that could maybe work well.
[00:30:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it could. You know, I think I told that when collecting in a couple days. I was thinking about bringing my. I have a smaller tripod that's only 8ft tall. I was considering bringing that. Have you ever used a come along when you're collecting?
[00:30:30] Speaker B: Yes. So I wonder which one would work better.
[00:30:34] Speaker A: Well, the nice thing about the come along is you don't need to bring the tripod structure for it. You can just like. Yeah, hook it up to a tree. It works better horizontally than the pulley.
[00:30:44] Speaker B: I think a come along for anyone that doesn't know is just basically it's like a rope or it's like a. What do you call it?
[00:30:53] Speaker A: Yeah, like a strap.
[00:30:54] Speaker B: A strap with a leverage so you can crank and slowly attach it to something and then slowly pull it away. Yeah, I think that's the way to go for trees that are growing in dirt is to use one of those or a tripod. I'm just not sure which one is better.
[00:31:10] Speaker A: Yeah, the tripod would be better if you didn't have anything around to strap to come along to. There's no other trees around.
[00:31:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:18] Speaker B: Which can be hard to find. You know, like, not every tree has another tree growing right next to buy it, so.
[00:31:24] Speaker A: Totally.
[00:31:25] Speaker B: That makes sense to me.
[00:31:26] Speaker A: Yeah. I've like. I've used it to rip out shrubs a bunch in people's landscapes. It's great for that.
[00:31:31] Speaker B: Yeah. So what kind of oaks are you collecting so far?
[00:31:36] Speaker A: Just live oaks.
[00:31:37] Speaker B: Nice. Me too. That's all I've collected. I'd like to try valley oak. Yeah, there's a spot I know about, but. But I've only done coast live oak so far.
[00:31:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I think there are. I'm trying to remember now if there are valley oaks or blue oaks in the spot that I go.
But I would like to collect those too. I hear they're more challenging because the tap roots are deeper.
[00:31:58] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:31:59] Speaker A: But I would still like to try.
[00:32:01] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, totally.
[00:32:02] Speaker A: But I just didn't see any good specimens last time, so.
[00:32:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
So you collected what, your last oak collecting trip was this February?
[00:32:13] Speaker A: I think it was in December.
[00:32:15] Speaker B: In December.
[00:32:16] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:32:16] Speaker B: That was with Bob.
[00:32:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:32:19] Speaker B: Nice.
[00:32:19] Speaker A: Nice. Yeah. Bob Ricker.
[00:32:23] Speaker B: So, yeah. How many oaks did you guys collect?
[00:32:25] Speaker A: We only got one each.
[00:32:26] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:32:27] Speaker A: That trip. Yeah. Yeah. So in a couple days we're going back to that same spot. It's a property that someone in Bob's family Owns. And we didn't understand exactly where the property lines were, so there's actually. We didn't explore, like, two thirds of the property, so.
[00:32:40] Speaker B: Sweet.
[00:32:40] Speaker A: Like, oh, we got to go back and find.
[00:32:42] Speaker B: That's exciting.
[00:32:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
What's your strategy for digging oaks? Like, can you describe kind of the process that you used?
And do you think. Was it easy?
[00:32:53] Speaker A: It was not easy.
So. But the one that I dug up last time, I used to come along for.
[00:33:00] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:33:01] Speaker A: So that was pretty straightforward. Um, I'll probably use that more next time.
[00:33:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:06] Speaker A: But the one that Bob dug up, which is a really, really nice, big oak, we didn't use the come along. It was actually in the. It would have been a good place to have a tripod.
[00:33:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:17] Speaker A: It was kind of an open area, but we basically trenched around it and then spent a very long time cutting a really thick taproot.
[00:33:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Did you bring a sawzall?
[00:33:29] Speaker A: Yeah, Bomb had a sawzall. And the battery died while we were doing that, so we switched to my handsaw.
[00:33:34] Speaker B: Super.
[00:33:35] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, sometimes the handsaw is pretty good, but, yeah, that. That tap root was like. It's funny, it wasn't that thick. It was like 2 inches thick, but it was like 6 inches wide or 8 inches wide or something. So, you know, it's like we kept thinking we were through it. Oh, no. It just keeps. Keeps going.
[00:33:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
You know, I.
And I would say I enjoy collecting trees up in the Sierra, because I can get a pocket tree, and it's basically like you're extracting it from a pocket of granite where there's duff and soil growing, and you just basically pop the tree out. I use these big pry bars. But coast live oak collecting is, like, always is way more challenging than I expect. I'm like, oh, this will be easy. And then, like, three hours later, I'm like. I'm just sweating and I'm so tired, and I'm like, oh, my gosh.
[00:34:25] Speaker A: Yeah, there was a lot of that.
[00:34:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
But I haven't used a come along or tripod very often. Usually I just am trenching around, digging deep enough, cutting a lot of roots, and it's just a slow process for me, but I think I've never collected an oak that didn't live, which is really good. Like, they seem to be very resilient. And you can cut off all the foliage if you. And I only do it. I do it in early spring before the push.
[00:34:57] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:34:58] Speaker B: So, like, just repotting time. When did you guys you guys did January.
[00:35:01] Speaker A: I think it was December or December.
[00:35:03] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:35:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:04] Speaker B: I think anytime when they're dormant is probably fine.
[00:35:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, we're going to see what happens with this, you know, late spring, early summer.
[00:35:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:13] Speaker A: Collecting. If we find anything really good, probably going to come back in fall, but yeah, I, I feel like it's going to work. I mean, they, if they're really strong and healthy, I feel like oaks, very resilient.
[00:35:25] Speaker B: So. Most definitely. Most definitely.
[00:35:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:35:27] Speaker B: If you find something really good, you can always just water and feed it and then come back.
[00:35:32] Speaker A: That's true.
[00:35:33] Speaker B: Next fall. I think that's a good strategy.
[00:35:36] Speaker A: Yeah. If it's something that, like, I couldn't live without. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Risk it for sure.
[00:35:41] Speaker B: You have a really nice oak in Peter's garden.
[00:35:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:35:46] Speaker B: What can you tell me about that tree and can you describe it a little bit?
[00:35:50] Speaker A: Yeah. So it is a double trunk tree.
It is. It's a large tree. I can't remember exactly how tall it is.
Large size, you know, not extra large, but it has a really nice base and flair to it, which is one of the things that really attracted me to it because that's not always easy to find in oaks.
So. Yeah, really nice big flare at the base and then two trunks and then. Yeah, I'm in the process of basically growing all the main branches right now.
[00:36:20] Speaker B: Yeah, that's great.
[00:36:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm really excited about that tree too. I think it's going to be a really cool, really cool oak.
[00:36:26] Speaker B: It's beautiful. I don't know who collected that one or do you know?
[00:36:29] Speaker A: Yeah, it was a guy. I can't remember his last name, but his first name is Steve.
[00:36:33] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:36:33] Speaker A: He was a firefighter and what he said was he would at every anywhere time he'd go firefighting, he would collect acorns and then grow them. And so a lot of. There's a few other trees that belong to him in the garden, but so a lot of them are like, you know, 30, 40 year old from acorn.
[00:36:49] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
[00:36:51] Speaker A: So that's what I thought that that tree was. But when we repotted it, there was like field soil and stuff in it. So I'm like, no, this tree might actually have been collected at some point.
So I don't know exactly.
[00:37:02] Speaker B: Interesting. I wonder.
[00:37:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:04] Speaker B: If it was field soil from his field or field soil from the native environment, you know?
[00:37:11] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know. I couldn't tell you.
[00:37:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:14] Speaker A: But I mean, it was like clay.
[00:37:16] Speaker B: So do you like oaks in more of a Traditional bonsai style or more of a. Like an oak?
[00:37:23] Speaker A: Like, more of an oak, like, style. Yeah, yeah, I think it's just.
It makes sense to me.
[00:37:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
[00:37:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:32] Speaker B: I appreciate both styles, I would say, but I definitely think we're also lacking in oaks that look like oaks.
[00:37:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I'd like to see more, too.
[00:37:42] Speaker B: Yeah, most definitely. Cool.
Sweet. So let's see. I wanted to go.
Oh, on the vein of oaks. Can you tell me anything that you've learned from Peter about oaks and what. What is Peter's kind of philosophy with oaks?
[00:37:59] Speaker A: Well, I'll start for the first part.
Water them a bunch.
[00:38:03] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:38:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Keeping them quite wet. Yeah, there are, like.
We don't really let them dry out all the way, which seems counterintuitive. I guess this goes back to what we were talking about earlier. It's like, even though they live in fairly dry places in a bonsai pot, they just, like, love water. So.
[00:38:20] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I. I did a podcast with Jonas one time, and I was trying to tell him a story, and I messed the story up. I was basically trying to explain that I. I feel like oaks need a lot of water more than I anticipated. And I think I said that we were walking around my yard, but the story is that I was walking around Peter's garden, and he had an oak, which the soil looked wet to me. It looked, like, very wet. It wasn't watered too long ago, but there was wilt already.
[00:38:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:52] Speaker B: And that surprised me. And basically, obviously, wilt means it's not got enough water.
And that was basically Peter watered it and then it got it stood upright again.
[00:39:05] Speaker A: Yeah. I similarly had a cork oak once that I brought to a workshop, and I think I just had it inside during the workshop. Maybe I left it outside in the shade during part of it, but I didn't really think it was going to dry out all the way. But one of the new pieces of new growth, it turned completely black and died.
[00:39:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:22] Speaker A: And it was fine. I was going to cut it off anyway. But, yeah, like, really demonstrated how quickly they can wilt when they don't have water. So.
[00:39:31] Speaker B: Do you remember how many times a day Peter waters his oaks? On average or the range? Like, in summer?
[00:39:38] Speaker A: In summer, it's often, like, four times a day.
[00:39:40] Speaker B: Four times a day?
[00:39:41] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm trying to think if we ever watered them more than that.
[00:39:44] Speaker B: I don't.
[00:39:45] Speaker A: There might have been times where.
[00:39:47] Speaker B: And these aren't shohin or anything like that. These are, like, medium large.
[00:39:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:53] Speaker A: A lot of them. In pretty big, deep pots, too, so. Yeah.
Yep.
[00:39:58] Speaker B: And is Peter cool with the oak style?
[00:40:00] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think he pretty much always does more of the oak style than he styles them. Yeah. I mean, if you look in his garden, I don't think any of them are in the traditional kind of pine style.
[00:40:12] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
Makes sense. Makes sense.
[00:40:15] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think a lot of people like that, you know, so.
[00:40:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree.
[00:40:19] Speaker A: I think most people like it better. Really?
[00:40:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. In. At least in California and us, I think it seems like that. Very cool. What's it like having Peter as a boss?
[00:40:29] Speaker A: I mean, it's good. It's good. Peter's. I mean, I learn a ton from him. I think our communication styles mesh pretty well. He's very direct, which works well for me. I don't like trying to, like, guess what people want.
So, you know, Peter's.
I. I think Peter's pretty nice as a bonsai teacher, but he doesn't mince words. If I, like, mess something up, he's going to tell me about it.
[00:40:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:56] Speaker A: Which is good. You know, that's the whole point, is that I'm here to be, you know, instructed.
[00:41:04] Speaker B: Most definitely. How does he teach you?
[00:41:08] Speaker A: I mean, it's not that different than.
Than when you're taking a workshop from him. If there's a tree that he wants me to work on, he'll sit. Sit down and explain what to do on the tree to me. And then I do it to the best that I can. And then at the end, get some feedback from him, which. There's always some feedback. Yeah.
[00:41:26] Speaker B: So he's so talented. There's always feedback for me. And I've been working with him since like 2008 or 2007 or something like that, so.
[00:41:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And I also, you know, I get to watch him and I'm often in the room and he's explaining things to clients, so you get to learn that way, too.
But then, but yeah, I mean, the. The practice is super valuable. That's like. The instruction is totally necessary, but then, like, actually getting some repetition for me, like, for, like, remembering and getting this stuff direct feedback. Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:42:02] Speaker B: That's great. Yeah. Do you ever. Did you ever consider going to Japan for an apprenticeship? And also I've heard that in Japan it's common for not so much teaching goes on more so just telling you to work and then you kind of have to take from observation and learn from. From watching the teachers work as opposed to, like, you know, having things explained to you, which it seems like Peter does a lot of that with you.
[00:42:28] Speaker A: Yeah, he does.
[00:42:29] Speaker B: That's great.
[00:42:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I have considered it. There's never been, I haven't been able to figure out a way to really make it work for me with my living situation and everything. So, yeah, I didn't consider it too seriously. You know, the idea of doing it in more locally was definitely like really appealing.
[00:42:46] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I, I mean, personally, I think you're in a much better situation here than you would be in Japan with any multi professional, I think.
[00:42:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think about that sometimes, you know, like, I don't. Am I actually getting a better education here than if I was in Japan? It's hard to, it's hard to say, you know, but I think so. I mean, it's definitely nice having someone explain things to me.
[00:43:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I just think Peter is such a top tier bonsai artist in the U.S. yeah. You also, you know, oaks, they don't work on, they barely work on oaks in Japan. I think there are oak varieties, but it's kind of like an afterthought.
[00:43:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:23] Speaker B: Whereas here, I mean, Peter's got a bunch of oaks, he's got all these native species that you're going to get your hands on all the time. And he's just at the highest level in the game in the US So I totally agree. And he's a nice guy and very intelligent and a very good teacher.
[00:43:40] Speaker A: Yes, yes.
[00:43:41] Speaker B: So.
[00:43:42] Speaker A: But yeah, I think it's, there's something to be said for, you know, when I finish my apprenticeship, I'm not gonna like go back home and have to figure out how to do everything in my environment. Yeah, I'm already here. I might stay fairly local to here and so I can just like copy everything.
[00:43:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:57] Speaker A: Piecemeal almost.
[00:43:58] Speaker B: Yeah. Do you think there's something that you want to specialize in? Kind of going back to that earlier vein we were talking about like, you know, deciduous or conifer grafting or trunk growing.
[00:44:14] Speaker A: I think development and refinement. I'd like to have a mix of different trees in my garden. I mean, I wouldn't mind if there might be a higher proportion of maybe oaks and redwoods or something. Yeah, I don't know. We'll see about redwoods. They take a lot of time.
[00:44:26] Speaker B: Uh huh.
[00:44:27] Speaker A: Uh huh.
[00:44:27] Speaker B: They do. Do you, you like redwoods a lot too as well?
[00:44:30] Speaker A: I do, yeah. Yeah.
[00:44:32] Speaker B: Nice. That's great.
Cool.
Let's see.
I guess I'm curious, is there anything that Peter has taught you which maybe has changed your view since you started.
[00:44:49] Speaker A: With him, Changed my view. Like, in I. Strong, like, technique, practice technique. Yeah, Yeah.
I mean, it's actually kind of hard is to pick one thing. I mean, I think the biggest thing studying with Peter is the nuance in all the different techniques. You know, decandling black pines isn't just like you pick a date and you cut all the candles off.
[00:45:15] Speaker B: Huh.
[00:45:16] Speaker A: There's a lot more to consider. You know, same with the foliation.
[00:45:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:45:20] Speaker A: We're not just cutting all the leaves off the tree. Like, we might cut some of the leaves off.
We might cut, you know, just one of two maple leaves off, depending on the tree.
Yeah. So there's just, you know, all of Peter's technique is, like, really, really refined and really specific to the tree that he's working on. So I think that might be the biggest thing. Also, just the concept of cutting to a silhouette. Peter talks about that all the time. I'm sure. You know, it seems very intuitive, but just.
Yeah, it really has a big effect, I think, on the speed that trees develop.
[00:45:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:45:58] Speaker A: Because you're not like, losing branches because you're cutting them back too far. I think I was doing a little bit of that before, you know, like, oh, I need division in this branch. I want it here. I'm going to cut it here. But if that's too far in your canopy, you can't do it.
So you have to cut back.
You know, if you want to get a low branch division close to the trunk, you have to cut back the whole top in order to do that. Yeah, I don't think I had that concept really before. Yeah, it's not in a really. In such a concrete way. Yeah.
[00:46:26] Speaker B: Yeah. His cutting back to silhouette, I think that's a very important concept.
And basically, it's been cool to watch him cut back to a very small silhouette. And then over time, it slowly builds out and out.
[00:46:42] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:46:43] Speaker B: Over many years and many applications of working on the tree. And that's really how you build out a tree. I think also you're in a fantastic spot because Peter really builds trees.
[00:46:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:46:56] Speaker B: In Japan, some of the bonsai nurseries really focus on. I mean, there's so many trees that are already showable, or they're. They're in the window where they could be shown. And so it's really just refinement work, whereas you're getting a wide variety and a lot of making trees. But then, hey, like, Jeff Stern's got a whole bunch of refined trees that you get to also work on. So you're getting, like, a very broad, Broad, you know, amount of knowledge.
[00:47:24] Speaker A: Totally. Yeah. And it's really cool to see.
You know, like, for junipers, for example, there's just like, we have, you know, some of the shows that, like, some of the trees that, like, Jeff has put in the Expo are here in the garden. So very refined trees. And then there's also examples of trees on every stage, you know, every step of the way, on the way to that here. So we have, like, RA Yamadori, and then there is, like, trees with graphs that we just started, and then there's trees that have, you know, the graphs have taken and we're doing the first wiring on those. So it's cool to, you know, get to see that and be like, oh, wow, this is going to turn into this amazing thing. Yeah.
[00:48:01] Speaker B: Do you like grafting native junipers? Is that your opinion? Would you graft them or would you not graft them?
[00:48:08] Speaker A: I would graft them. The reason I. The main reason I would graft them is because a lot of people come in here to Peter's workshop with nice native trees and they say, I wish I had grafted this tree 10 years ago.
I keep hearing people say that. So I'm like, okay, I'm just going to default to grafting everything for now if something changes my mind, you know, I'm. I'm open to using the native foliage, but, yeah, I think that you just get such a bigger sense of scale with the native foliage. And I think, to me, I don't feel like that much is lost because I feel like the foliage is not the main characteristic that we appreciate in junipers.
It's more about the contrast of deadwood and. And the live vein and the twists and the trunk and. And all that. To me, it's like, I think Morris Gained.
[00:49:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:49:05] Speaker B: Very nice. Very nice. Cool. What do you want to grow? Like, what types of trees? What styles? If you got into that, I think.
[00:49:14] Speaker A: I would probably just pick a couple things I've thought about growing. Well, I mean, I have started growing a few, actually. I think some native deciduous stuff would be cool to grow.
Maybe white alders. White alder.
[00:49:25] Speaker B: Okay. I'll have to look that up. I don't know that one.
[00:49:27] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, they're very common. Like, tree around rivers.
[00:49:31] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:49:31] Speaker A: Like riparian areas.
[00:49:32] Speaker B: Okay. I. I've seen alder before. I know in the Pacific Northwest, they collect.
[00:49:37] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. They have, like, a lot of red alder. It looks exactly the same.
[00:49:40] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:49:40] Speaker A: Like, I don't know how to tell the Difference to be honest, between white and red, but okay.
[00:49:45] Speaker B: White alder. Nice.
[00:49:46] Speaker A: I mean that's just kind of one that I happen to have picked up a couple nursery stock early on and started growing and propagating and they just seem to grow super well here and they get big fast. Yeah, but other. But yeah, I think there's potential with other deciduous species too. I guess I'd like to pick some native, easy to grow. Just something that is like really practical, that grows really well, that is very available.
Yeah, I think buckeyes would be super cool to use, I think.
[00:50:15] Speaker B: Do those grow well? I wonder if they grow well in container. In a container?
[00:50:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, they do. I've experimented. I don't have like one with a good trunk, but I've experimented with them. They're really easy to grow from the buckeyes that, you know.
[00:50:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Don't they have real big leaves.
[00:50:31] Speaker A: They have big leaves but they reduce very easily in my experience, which everyone seems to like be very worried about the big leaves on them.
But yeah, I mean I have one that I put in a tiny pot and the leaves are like one inch and I think if you just work on them like a month or maybe two months depending on before you would do like maples but do similar work. I think they're really, really similar to Naples. You know, they're the opposite leaves. They respond to defoliation but they go dormant. I don't know if you know about them. They go summer dormant, like truly summer dormant. Not just like they slow down, but they will completely lose their leaves in like June or July.
[00:51:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:51:11] Speaker A: And no matter how much you water them, they will not wake up and Interesting. And then they wake up in like December or January.
[00:51:17] Speaker B: Okay. I, yeah. Don't know much about them.
[00:51:21] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm just kind of going on a tangent here, but I, I think that would. I want to experiment more, but if they seem like they're promising, I might try to grow sweet with those. And like oaks. I'd like to grow oaks too.
[00:51:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:51:31] Speaker A: Nice.
[00:51:31] Speaker B: That'd be cool.
[00:51:32] Speaker A: I think pot grown oaks are really nice. Yeah, collected oaks are cool. But I feel like some of these pot grown oaks that have like been around for decades are really cool.
[00:51:42] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. No, I'm growing some pot grown oaks and I'm putting some of them in the field, but only after many years of, well, six to eight years of growing them in a pot and I did. So I have like a bunch of native coast live oaks on my property and I've been collecting acorns. My last house had one too. And so there's just all these oak seedlings. So I would just snip off the acorn or below, I can't remember. But I would get seedling cuttings, essentially, and they would produce nice nabari, which is great.
[00:52:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:52:19] Speaker B: Rather than getting a big taproot. So I've got some that I'll have to show you in the future.
[00:52:23] Speaker A: Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. I think that's, like, why it's so cool to grow them in pots so you can, like, develop that nabari.
[00:52:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:52:29] Speaker A: You know, like, so many collected oaks have the reverse taper. Right. Right before they go into the ground, which is not a crate for bonsai.
[00:52:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you think for coast live oak, do you think bark really matters to you?
[00:52:40] Speaker A: I like it. I kind of generally like barky species. I think it shows age. Yeah. I'm not sure what the deal is with bark on them, honestly. It seems like, oh, maybe you. Have you seen bark form on the ones that you've grown from acorn?
[00:52:56] Speaker B: So not like, very, very lightly, unfortunately.
[00:53:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:00] Speaker B: It's more like that smooth, whitish, grayish color.
[00:53:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:05] Speaker B: Whereas, like, I was looking at Mike Pestello's oak that he won the PBE award with is in Peter's garden right now. And that thing has fantastic bark. And so it's gotta be a combination of age and genetics. But what I should have really done is sourced out trees with really good bark. Got those acorns seedling cutting, did the seedling cutting technique or acorn cutting technique and went with those ones. I think if I really put time and effort into it, I was lazy. I just took them off.
[00:53:37] Speaker A: That's smart. Yeah. It makes a lot of sense.
[00:53:40] Speaker B: I. I do think, like, sourcing good genetics is really important.
[00:53:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And they definitely do it in Japan.
[00:53:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
I think if what you. What I really should do, what I should do, and I need to take my own advice is, is do that. So source out really good bark. Characteristic trees, get the acorns, sprout them, do the seedling cutting, but do way more than I think I want to keep.
So let's say If I want 10, let's start with 100 or 120.
[00:54:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:54:08] Speaker B: And then maybe like a few years down the road, just do a massive culling and keep the ones that look the best in terms of Nibari structure and bark formation, which. That might be tough because.
[00:54:21] Speaker A: Yeah. That would take a while with the bark.
[00:54:24] Speaker B: Okay. I don't know.
[00:54:25] Speaker A: Is Great, though. Yeah. Like, I think, yeah, we should be doing more of that thing, that kind of stuff. Yeah. If I start another batch of oaks, I'm gonna do that too. Now that you said it.
[00:54:34] Speaker B: Or maybe you could air layer a piece or take cuttings off of a oak with nice bark.
[00:54:41] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good idea. Have you known anyone who's air layered oaks?
[00:54:44] Speaker B: You know, I believe I have heard people say that they can co. That they have air layered coast live oaks. I think it's more challenging. I'm pretty sure Julian told me he.
[00:54:56] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:54:57] Speaker B: Down in Southern California. I should ask him again. I know he's done some really interesting things. Have you seen some of the things he's done?
[00:55:04] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:55:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Like he took branches and wired them down so they touch the soil.
[00:55:10] Speaker A: Oh, I saw that.
[00:55:11] Speaker B: And they rooted and then they grow up. Like in nature they, you know, they.
[00:55:15] Speaker A: Yeah, the ground layer. Yeah.
[00:55:17] Speaker B: Which I think is pretty cool. I know he's thread grafted oaks successfully.
[00:55:21] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:55:22] Speaker B: Which we're doing some of that with trident maples today. But with oaks you can do it as well.
[00:55:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I've asked quite a few people about air layering. Oops. And I haven't met anyone who's actually done it, but everyone is like, I think it would work.
Yeah. I mean, yeah. I don't have a need to do it now, but yeah. I mean, if you could earlier, like a branch with good bark.
[00:55:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:55:45] Speaker A: That would be.
[00:55:46] Speaker B: Air layering, I feel like, is challenging. Like the older the tree or the older the piece, the more challenging the air layer, generally speaking.
But still, you have a great idea. You could do like a young portion of a highly barked oak.
[00:56:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Of an older tree. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Yeah. I'm curious to look into more what makes them bark up. Because sometimes in nature it seems like they don't need to be that old to get the bark.
Like, the last oak I collected has some pretty decent bark on it. And it was like. I mean, it couldn't have been more than 10 or 15 years old.
[00:56:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:56:25] Speaker A: I don't think it was very old. But I was talking with Peter a little bit about this and he was saying that it doesn't seem like they form bark in pots.
[00:56:34] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:56:35] Speaker A: I don't know. I think we as a community, we need to figure. Well, I'll pay attention and figure it out.
[00:56:40] Speaker B: For sure. For sure. Yeah. And I'm sure genetics plays a big factor in.
[00:56:46] Speaker A: Yeah, totally.
[00:56:47] Speaker B: Cool. Well, I guess I'm just curious, like, is there anything else I know you think About Oaks a lot. Is there anything else that you maybe daydream about with bonsai?
[00:56:56] Speaker A: I mean, I do daydream a lot about building my own garden.
[00:57:00] Speaker B: That's cool.
[00:57:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Something I think about a lot.
[00:57:04] Speaker B: What do you think about with that?
[00:57:08] Speaker A: Lately I've been thinking about trying to create like a very tightly organized space.
Maybe something that's a little bit smaller than most people would think of. I'm not sure exactly how big that is. But then, you know, really spending a lot of time making the landscaping really nice and also super low maintenance.
[00:57:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:57:33] Speaker A: And then.
Yeah. Incorporating lots of stonework.
[00:57:37] Speaker B: Do you have the stone picked out in your mind, like the types and stuff?
[00:57:42] Speaker A: No. It'll depend on where the property is for sure. Yeah.
[00:57:45] Speaker B: Makes sense what I want to do with it.
[00:57:46] Speaker A: But I mean, it'll probably be either granite or moss rock. Mostly what is available. Yeah.
[00:57:52] Speaker B: Huh.
[00:57:52] Speaker A: Granite would be cool.
[00:57:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:57:54] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:57:55] Speaker B: Yeah. I drove to Fresno to get my granite boulders.
[00:57:58] Speaker A: Oh, really?
[00:57:58] Speaker B: Yeah, because I wanted it to feel like the Sierra, which is my. My happy place.
[00:58:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:58:04] Speaker B: They had. They call it moss rock, but it's just granite boulders with moss on them.
[00:58:09] Speaker A: Oh, that's nice. Yeah. It's funny how there's so many. Like moss rock is something you can get at any stone yard, but like not always the same kind of rock.
[00:58:16] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:58:16] Speaker A: That's cool. It's probably like pretty inexpensive.
[00:58:18] Speaker B: I imagine it is. Yeah. Yeah. And it. I mean, Fresno is very close to the Sierra. So they, you know, get it right from the. From the source and it was way cheaper. I checked locally too, and it was like five times as much.
[00:58:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Some big disparity in. Oh, for sure. Price of stone. Yeah. It can be really cheap. You find the right stone yard.
[00:58:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Cool, man.
Is there any other topics that you think about that you would like to chat about?
[00:58:50] Speaker A: I think, I mean, yeah.
Bonsley stuff in general. It's a lot of fun to talk about. Yeah.
Glad we're talking about Oaks.
Yeah. I don't know. I can't. Nothing is immediately jumping to mind.
[00:59:11] Speaker B: Yeah, no worries.
Any other goals that you can think of, short or long? Like do you.
Do you set more short term goals for yourself or.
[00:59:24] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, right now I'm really focused on just trying to.
Trying to do, you know, trying to execute bonsai techniques like consistently at a high level.
And then once I can do more of that, I want to start, you know, trying to get faster at everything. I think it's hard to get faster when you're not doing something really well. Or if you try to get. Learn to do something quickly before you're really good at it, you kind of end up handicapping yourself a little bit. So those are kind of, you know, some of my.
Some of my goals. I also do want to get some really nice trees. I have a few that I think are pretty good that I've.
That I have now. But, yeah, I'd like to. I'd like to get more. Yeah, both things that are, you know, more refined and good. Project trees.
[01:00:13] Speaker B: So sweet.
[01:00:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:00:15] Speaker B: Nice. And a lot more collecting, would you say, to get those trees?
[01:00:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I can't do as much collecting as I'd like to. Yeah. Just because of time. But yeah, I think that's going to be for the project tree part of it. Yeah.
[01:00:26] Speaker B: Sweet.
[01:00:27] Speaker A: And I would like to get like. Like, I'd love to get something. I'd like to have a fairly refined deciduous tree, maybe something that's only like five to ten years out.
[01:00:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:00:38] Speaker A: Which is not that long for a deciduous tree. Yeah. Yeah. But then, yeah, collecting too. Definitely. I'd like to get more stuff.
[01:00:45] Speaker B: That's great. Very nice. Well, hey, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. And I appreciate you always helping me out in Peter's garden. Unload trees and, you know, help me on. On my tre sometimes and. And everything. I think Peter's really lucky to have you and I think you guys work well together and I'm excited for your time here. I think you're in the best spot you could be at. I really mean that and it'll be cool. Maybe we can check in again later in your apprenticeship and chat again.
[01:01:14] Speaker A: Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah. Yeah. I feel super lucky to be here working with Peter. Yeah. Thanks for interviewing me, for sure.
Yeah.
[01:01:21] Speaker B: Awesome. Cool. Thank you you so much.
[01:01:23] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you.
[01:01:24] Speaker B: Appreciate it.
