#39 Addison Galambos

[00:00:00] Speaker A: To baby trees. [00:00:11] Speaker B: The black pondo podcast. [00:00:18] Speaker A: The Black Ponda Podcast. [00:00:21] Speaker B: Cool. Well, hey, man, I have been a massive fan of your podcast. I feel like you are absolutely crushing it. I look forward to it all. Like, I'm so excited to listen to your podcast now. Thank you so much for doing all those interviews and talking with all those people. I feel like you're really getting some bonsai commentary from a wide variety of different people. Like, I love all the guests that you've had and I think that you do a phenomenal job of asking good questions and creating engaging conversations. So super excited to have you on. Thank you so much for joining me. For those that might not know, would you give just kind of a quick intro on the Bonsai Builders podcast and kind of maybe what your goals are with the show and what the show's all about? [00:01:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, maybe I'll do a really quick intro on myself as well, please. My name's Addison. For those who don't know, Addison Galambos. I live in San Francisco currently. Been out in the Bay Area for like the last 10 years or so. During the week I'm a sales engineer at Google, kind of doing tech demos and selling software. And then on the weekends, I'm a bonsai hobbyist. So, you know, have been doing bonsai and trying to get good at bonsai for maybe the last eight or so years after, as a child, kind of being introduced to it. And the Bonsai Builders podcast is kind of a recent thing I've started in the last six months, which, you know, honestly was inspired by the Black Pondo podcast and Bonsai Wire and Asymmetry and hearing these amazing conversations that, you know, were very thought provoking for me and interesting and wanting to see more of that in the community. So I started the, I almost said the Black Pondo, the, the Bonsai Builders podcast about six months ago, and I've tried to rescue. Release an episode every week and it comes out on Spotify and YouTube and, and, you know, wherever you listen to Apple podcasts, wherever you listen to podcasts. So, yeah, I. The podcast, the. The kind of general premise of it is taking a really intentional look at, as a hobbyist, what is the, what's the path to getting to a professional level of skill and knowing that we're going to have a lot less hours to accomplish that? How do we optimize that path and how do we look at different people's goals and what's helped them achieve those goals so that others who are going to then come and want to Go down the same path, have a blueprint or some kind of thoughts, and then also just to discuss hot topic issues and provide a place for people to connect to the different figures in the Bonsai community. So that's kind of the premise of the podcast. And, you know, that might change over time, but so far, that's kind of been the overarching theme that I've tried to stick to with sourcing my guests and my questions. [00:03:26] Speaker B: That's fantastic. And yeah, like I said before, I legitimately look forward to all every week. And I have listened to a few episodes, like, multiple times tonight talking about travel. I always, like, queue up, download a few episodes before I get on the plane, and I've really enjoyed it. And I really appreciate how frequently you're doing them, like once a week. I mean, doing podcasts, it's. It's a bit of work, I would say. So I really appreciate the frequency that you've been able to achieve with all your guests. Great work, man. Seriously. [00:04:04] Speaker A: Yeah, that. That part is actually the. The podcasts have been fairly lightweight in terms of get to. I like talking to people, so it's fun to have these conversations. And then the editing is pretty straightforward, which is nice. I keep it to just audio, like, not video. And like, the release process is pretty streamlined, which is nice. But I'd say keeping to that weekly schedule is tough. I definitely have to push myself sometimes when I don't want to, like, schedule another episode or find another guest or create another outline or, you know, do I have to adhere to that? No. I mean, there's no kind of monetary requirement or something like that. But I. I don't know. I guess I. I want to try to, at least for the fir in the next, you know, few months, try to keep to that or hopefully this year, I guess, would be a good goal, like, keep to that kind of schedule and then see what's sustainable going forward. But I. I think. I think it does. The. The reason I'm doing it is because I think it really does weeks that I've missed episodes. I definitely have a mark decrease in viewers the following week, and I have to kind of rebuild from that peak. It's almost whenever you, like, get injured while you're working out, you know, and you have to, like, reset, restart your kind of buildup of your bench press or whatever. Right. Um, and so keeping to that really strict schedule, I think has helped the podcast grow more quickly. And I mean, I don't really have some goal around growth or something like that, but it does it, for me, it does provide some motivation to like see those numbers go up over time. So that's kind of why I've tried to stick to that weekly schedule. [00:05:37] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I love that. I think that's fantastic. I, I feel like I'm almost at the opposite end where like podcasting, I really enjoy it. It's, it's important to me. I would like to do it for the long term. Actually, I'd like to do it for many years. However, I don't necessarily, like, I could not do it once a week. That would just be too much and too, too much of an overload for me. So more so it's kind of scheduled around my, the rest of my life and I, I tend to find that like I'll dive in and do a bunch of episodes and then stop for a long time and then do a bunch and then stop. And that's just kind of how it goes for me. I think you have a much more intelligent approach, especially in terms of like getting more listeners. But I, I'm doing what I'm doing. But anyways, I, I love the podcast. You're doing a fantastic job and please keep it up. I'm, I'm probably your number one fan out there. [00:06:40] Speaker A: Well, I'm your number one fan, so we can, we can, we can definitely trade back and forth there. I, honestly, I, I listen to your podcast whenever a new episode comes out. A lot of times I use listening to the podcast as my reward for work for like working out. So I'll listen. I'll only listen to podcasts while I'm running or at the gym. And then, you know, if I want to pick up and finish the episode, then I have to go back to the gym. So that's been kind of a fun little way to. But whenever you don't release an episode, then I don't go to the gym, so you better remember that. [00:07:18] Speaker B: Shoot. Okay, I'll, I'll get. [00:07:20] Speaker A: I'm just teasing. [00:07:21] Speaker B: I'll be better. [00:07:22] Speaker A: No, no, no, no. And I mean, I think, I think it's, it's to really, it's about being able to do it for the long term. Right. And so you've already released over, over almost 40 episodes or something like that. Right? Maybe even more. So, you know, you've been, you've been really, you know, burning the midnight oil there and making a really long lived podcast. And I think the guests that you get are always really high quality. So, so it's, it's an enjoy to listen to. [00:07:49] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. So for anyone that might not know you, would you give us maybe a brief overview of, like, how you got into bonsai and. And what bonsai looks like for you these days? [00:08:04] Speaker A: Yeah, so, I mean, I watched Karate Kid as a kid, and then whenever I. Whenever I. I think something captured me about, you know, the tree in the mountain that they. They collected that Yamadori that they collected that. That definitely, like, is a core memory stuck in my brain. And then, yeah, I came out to California actually once, and we saw this guy when I grew up in Pennsylvania, and we came out to California on vacation and I saw this stand on the side of the road selling bonsai. And that was my first experience, maybe when I was 13 or something like that, getting a little tree and know I killed it, but I kept the book. And I always would memorize the book and, like, be reading it in my room and looking up species and stuff like that, which was really fun. And then, you know, after I graduated college, I moved out to the Bay Area and started volunteering at the bonsai garden at Lake Merritt and started actually having a static tree collection. And then maybe the last three and a half years now I've kind of rededicated myself to doing bonsai in terms of really setting goals, of trying to, like, be able to create trees myself at a professional level. So I don't. I'm not, like, seeking to do it as a profession, but I want to be able to create an indistinguishable English. Indistinguishable product from a professional would be my, like, ultimate goal. [00:09:25] Speaker B: Love it. Love it. So I think earlier you described yourself as a hobbyist, and I feel like that's an. I never know what to call myself or call someone like you. I think I usually say, like, a hardcore hobbyist or a hardcore enthusiast. And I don't know, like, none of the words quite fit quite right. Do you usually say hobbyist? [00:09:51] Speaker A: I usually say hobbyist. I mean, I do sometimes do small amounts of paid work, but I wouldn't. I'm like, my work is not at what I would deem a professional level or like a level high enough that I could do it full time. And I don't have a desire to, like, have my sole income source be bonsai. So, you know, I wouldn't really say I'm a. Of a professional. I. Yeah, I would just call it like a hardcore hobbyist. Right? Like somebody who is deeply dedicated to the pursuit of bonsai. And. And then I would. I would say like, the distinction between hobbyist and professional would be the kind of having to pursue it. And, you know, from a monetary standpoint as well. Right. Like having a monetary component be a big, big component of how you orient your practice. [00:10:45] Speaker B: Right. [00:10:46] Speaker A: Yeah, but there's probably a lot of definitions for that, but that's how I. [00:10:49] Speaker B: I think of it totally, completely on the same page there. I do think that I would love if there was a term, or maybe not even a term, but just, like, when I'm talking about bonsai, really, I want it to be my lifestyle, or I feel like it becomes a lifestyle rather than just a hobby where, like, a hobby is something like you do every once in a while kind of thing. Whereas I feel like a hardcore hobbyist that just, like, lives the bonsai lifestyle. And I'm, like, obsessed with bonsai. And I feel like you are kind of the same way. [00:11:26] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. I mean, I see, like, you and Sam Tan, for example, as like, the exemplars of people that I want to emulate, like, in terms of what you've been able to accomplish so far in bonsai and the sacrifices you make in your personal life to adhere to this bonsai lifestyle that leads to these certain results. So I definitely understand that distinction. And, like, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what the word for it is, but there definitely is a difference between someone who's making the commitments they need to in their life to pursue bonsai at a high level and someone who's has a few trees. And not that there's anything wrong with that. Right. But, like, there's definitely a. A difference in someone who's actively seeking to optimize and, like, makes bonsai a core part of their life versus somebody who's doing bonsai conveniently. [00:12:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, I was curious, going back to your podcast, is there anything that was maybe particular, particularly impactful or anything from, like, your recent guests on your podcast that maybe changed your perspective on something or made you think differently or kind of just like, reinforced a belief that. That comes to mind? [00:12:49] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I've had some, in my opinion, awesome guests recently. I had. I just had Peter T. And Julian, who are both people I really look up to. So I. Yeah, a lot of those things. Let me. Let me try to synthesize them a bit first. Talking about, I guess, in. Well, actually, let me go back one more episode, too, to Randy Bennett, who I thought had some cool thoughts. One thing that Randy said to me was, you need to not Only study how to. If you want to like, really build a niche in a tree species, you have to not only study, you know, how that tree is built and like, works from a bonsai perspective, but also study it from a, like, horticulture and scientific study standpoint. He was talking about kind of discovering the process for growing knees in cypresses and having that been drawn from unrelated to bonsai horticulture and like understanding the cypress more fundamentally. And I thought that was really cool because that's something that I seek to do with redwoods. And so there isn't really. Because it's not a Japanese tree. So there's not really an established path and like a 100% verified meta for redwoods. Right. There's not just one way to grow them. And so that's something that really stuck out to me and is something that I want to look for further into because it's a species that's very iconic in California and like grows really well in my area and I enjoy a lot and honestly was one of the inspirational species for me getting into bonsai. So that was pretty transformational for me. Um, and then, yeah, I mean, with Julian's episode, I thought his talk on. I love. I love his like, very philosophical approach. I. I just like those kind of conversations. So I enjoyed that a lot. I. I thought his talk on wabi sabi was like. And like how that's fundamental to the Japanese aesthetic and like the meaning of wabi sabi was very eye opening for me. I had not. Like, I didn't know that or I didn't, you know, I think that that gave me another look into like one level deeper of, you know, what is what underlies the Japanese aesthetic and how does that relate to Japanese culture. So that was really fun and interesting and like something I want to continue to kind of think on. And then, man, Peter's episode was awesome. I felt like that was one of the. Peter on your podcast is one of my all time favorite podcast episodes. I think you've done two episodes with him now, right? Or. But maybe I'm misremembering, but that maybe I've just listened to it so many times. But the episodes that you've done with him are some of my favorite because I feel like he comes with such a, like, well thought out but exceedingly humble explanations of his mindset and how it leads to the results that he gets and. But he has the backing of it of here's all these amazing trees and awards that he's won with this mindset. So I always enjoy hearing him. And I think there was multiple things, and maybe we can get into that, but multiple things within his episode that I thought were pretty. That I related to a lot, which was cool. [00:16:07] Speaker B: Yeah, fantastic. Well, all three of those were really cool. And going back to your first comment regarding redwoods and other American native species in particular, I'm, like, so excited to see the different ways that we can approach those types of material, especially redwoods. Like, I think you could do several different styles with a redwood and make them look very cool. And so I love that I could listen to Julian just rant and get all philosophical all day. I love that guy. He's so awesome. And then Peter, like, man, such a wise individual. I feel like I've spent a ton of time around him because he's my bonsai teacher and I've worked with him since about 2008 now. But I always am learning new things. He's always just thinking about bonsai. I mean, he. That guy works harder than, like, I've. I've ever met anyone else. He. He work. He's like seven days a week, every single week, working on bonsai all the time. And just. It was really interesting. I think one of the things that I kind of tripped out about that he was saying was he was talking about that in the west, we are so technical, we want to break down every portion of a tree and define why the tree is good. But then he was talking about the Japanese aesthetic, where maybe, like, they don't. They just don't look at it in that light, in that approach, and they just kind of look at the overall picture. I thought that was very interesting and just kind of like, changed the way that my mind has been thinking about things. And then he was also talking about how some masterpiece trees, like, he can't quite put his finger on why the tree is so special and what brings it to that next level. And it's not necessarily just because everything is technically perfect. And I don't know, I thought he made several very interesting points, and I really liked that episode. I'm glad you recorded it. And I want to listen to it again. [00:18:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I also. Another thing that he said that really stuck out to me and resonated with me was build appreciation for each step of the build process. Like, have pride in the graphs that you. I mean, he didn't say it exactly these words, but have. Have within the building analogy. Right. Whenever you're creating the frame for the house, have. Have pride and gain enjoyment from a really well crafted frame. Right. And I think from. From a craftsman perspective, like, that's so, so, so, so true. Like, you can think of that, like, the best Japanese bonsai pots, even the parts that aren't visible, have that excellence carried into them. Right. And to me, or, like, for. For my pursuit or, like, how I want to approach bonsai, being able to really cultivate it that in myself, to make sure that I do that level of detail. And, like, I want to. I want to make sure that my brain really reacts positively to really nailing each of those individual steps. And so that really resonated a lot with me and I thought was a really powerful statement. And I think having that attitude is what makes the best bonsai or just in general makes the best things. Right. And so I thought that was cool. And, like, really, I hadn't heard it expressed in quite that way before, so that was really awesome for me. [00:19:43] Speaker B: 100%. Yeah. I think the term kaizen really resonates with me, and I've heard several people talk about this in the past, but I think if you focus on something and just continuing to iterate on that one thing and just making it a tiny fraction of a percent better, little by little, eventually you achieve these massive results. And I think that's absolutely the right approach with bonsai in particular, and just having pride in every little area that you focus on. I think that's so important. I really like that point that Peter made as well. [00:20:27] Speaker A: So, yeah, I think he did a really good job of bridging the gap between a lot of these Japanese concepts and how Japanese think of the aesthetic and the practice of bonsai and making that a little bit more understandable from a US Standpoint without using words like kaizen or shuhari or, you know, wabi sabi. Like, he made it very in. In, you know, in direct English, made it very understandable, which I think was. Was. Was cool. And like, really, I'm really. I'm really thankful for him for coming on the show and sharing that with everyone. [00:21:04] Speaker B: Awesome. Yeah. I feel like part of why I love being Peter's student is his ability to break things down in a very simple and digestible format. And, like, I need that to learn bonsai, and he does just a very good job of that, so love it. Awesome. Well, changing gears here a little bit, I understand that you recently went to Japan, and I hope it's okay. I asked you a bit about this. I'm sure, like, you are going to talk about this on your podcast, but I was just curious if you could tell me a little bit about that experience and how it went for you and maybe some highlights or what it was like for you. [00:21:48] Speaker A: Yeah, this was my fifth, I think trip to Japan centered around bonsai and well, I mean every time I go to Japan it's centered around bonsai to be honest. But fifth trip to Japan and it was just a once in a lifetime experience experience. Like it was head and shoulders above the previous trips that I've. Well, maybe not head and shoulders, maybe just head above the, the previous trips that I've done in terms of just enjoyment. And I think it was kind of a lot of things coming together. I, I'm, I'm not, I wouldn't say like I came out of it and my bonsai practice is transformed necessarily, but I had a lot of fun. Like it was a really great experience and, and something that I will never forget. So I think a lot of things kind of came together for that one. Like I got to do part of the trip with my, my mother and my brother came and visited me. Unfortunately my wife couldn't go on the trip so they kind of subbed in as, as, as the family contingent. And I had a really great time sharing bonsai and like the trip in Japan with them. And then Kokofu 100 was amazing. The Caliber of the Trees was better than any of the other shows that I've been to. I feel like they kind of pulled out all the stops and then I got to engage with the community in a new way through both starting to be able to speak a little bit of conversational Japanese finally after studying for a while, so being able to connect with these kind of Japanese artists who maybe don't speak English and you know, not have deep conversations, but start to have conversations and connect with them and kind of geek out about our shared passion. And then also I, I did multiple interviews over there with English speaking folks capturing their experience with the show. So all those things kind of combined. And then at the end of the trip I did a road trip with a small group of kind of other enthusiasts or people like at the, our tier of hobby level I guess. And so getting to geek out with them, like having the family, the, the, the show and then the road trip, like those three components really kind of combine to make a magical experience for me. [00:24:05] Speaker B: Oh, that's so cool. That is awesome. Was there anything that maybe really stood out to you bonsai wise? Like did you have some, some highlights bonsai wise? I mean, I'm sure seeing kokfu100 just is a massive Highlight. But anything stand out in particular with kokufu or within anything else bonsai related over there? [00:24:34] Speaker A: Yeah, well, one thing, one thing that I thought was cool and these aren't in any particular order, but one thing I thought was super cool and I'm wondering if you relate to this is I've been studying a lot with Ryan Neal and also with Adam Toth and I went to both Kimura's garden as well as Taiga Ur Shabata's garden. That's cool. I feel like seeing, kind of going back in time and seeing the, the, I don't know what the predecessors to these people's practices and seeing the things that I'm learning kind of borne out or even just where they came from, like the, the getting to see those things. I had a much deeper experience at those gardens than some of the other gardens that like, were amazing in their own right. But I wasn't able to kind of trace some of the, it was just different being able to see the techniques being borne out in, in different ways and that was really cool. So going to Taiga's garden as well as Kimura's was fun. And then. Yeah, that, that was, that was one of the coolest. That was one of the coolest things I think. Um, and then I also this trip I try to like pick something that I'm going to try to study while I'm there. My last trip I did shohin junipers and the creation process. This trip I focused on like what aesthetics in medium to large junipers do. I like, like looking at pad shape and pad depth and like degree of complexity and all these different things and trying to study that. So that was what I tried to. At every garden I was going to, I was like pigeonholing in on the junipers and trying to kind of learn something from that. And you know, I wouldn't say I like had these crazy epiphanies, but it was still fun to do and kind of guided a lot of my, my sightseeing at the nurseries to hopefully help me take something away from it. [00:26:31] Speaker B: That's so cool. Did at Taiga's place, did you get to check out his new koi pond? [00:26:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Yes. [00:26:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Was pretty cool. [00:26:41] Speaker A: It was the, it is, it is pretty cool. The last time I visited the day before, they filled it with water the day after I left. So I was happy to get to go back and see it kind of fully realized, which was cool. [00:26:55] Speaker B: That's so cool. Yeah, I, I, well, I guess. Does Kimura have a koi pond as well. [00:27:01] Speaker A: I think he does. I would actually say Kimura's is, Kimura's is a little bit. Kimura's is cooler to me because, well, Kimura has like, I don't know, this koi or like million dollar koi for fish and there's like 10, 20 of them or something like that. So his got some, that part like, I don't know as much about the different varieties. So I, you know, the, the fish are cool, but the, the pond is a little bit more like natural and integrated, whereas Taiga's is definitely a little bit more, you know, it's newer. Right. And so it's a little less, it's a little less kind of patinaed in if I'd say, but still very beautiful and, and a nice fixed feature. [00:27:37] Speaker B: Gotcha. Gotcha. That makes total sense. And I think his fish are probably just younger and takes time to grow them and yeah, I, I don't know why. So I have a koi pond and I, it's close to my bonsai garden. If I could redo it and I had a lot of money, I would figure out a way to better integrate the two, the bonsai displayed with the fish. And I think last time I was telling you, we were talking like I started my bonsai garden because I was up in the Sierra and I saw like trees, rock and animals and like basically there's streams and rivers up there and there's trout. And I just thought that like the combination of everything was really beautiful together. And so I do think even though koi is not bonsai, it's almost like a sub genre that's somewhat related to the hobby, but not really. [00:28:35] Speaker A: But I don't know, I don't know what it is. But a lot of people in the bonsai hobby also enjoy fish. So like saltwater or freshwater tanks or aquascaping or koi ponds. So there's definitely got to be something that's going on there in the underlying psyche that kind of connects those things. [00:28:50] Speaker B: For sure. For sure. Cool. Well, you know, going to Japan and then, and then seeing bonsai here in the United States, I was curious if after going to Japan you have any thoughts on maybe what might separate high level Japanese bonsai from. From what we typically see in the U.S. hmm. [00:29:17] Speaker A: Yeah, that's tough. You know, I think there are glimpses of similarity. I mean, one thing is just, and I talked about this with Peter, there's, there's just a lot of age over there that you can't really fake. Right. And so, you know, if they have a thousand trees at the, you know, 80 years old mark of cultivation and we've got 50, you're just naturally going to get less, you know, masterpieces or of the highest quality trees out of that. Right. So they're just, they're just practice, they've been practicing it longer and they have more material to use to create these trees. And so you're bound to get diamonds out of that. Um, yeah. And then, I mean, I think that they're the practitioners there or there's, there's more practitioners that are able to craft a tree at a high level than here. Right. And so thus, you know, if there's a hundred people making trees there and there's 10 people making trees here, then, you know, you're just going to get more trees there. But I don't think there's anything like, you know, I don't, I don't think some of the trees that you see at pbe, I don't think those would be out of place at Kokofu in any stretch of the imagination. So I think we're getting towards that. And you know, we don't have the depth to call on. Right. Those might be the 75 best trees in the US or whatever in the, in the area at the time versus, you know, Kokfu's putting up 300 trees in the exhibit hall or whatever. Right. So. And two weekends. But yeah, I don't know. I, I. What separates high level Japanese trees from U.S. trees? Yeah, maybe just the, maybe just the time aspect. And then I think that we're less skilled on average here as well. Right. Like I would, I would imagine the, the practitioners, there's more practitioners that can execute at a high level there than here. [00:31:17] Speaker B: Totally, totally. Makes sense. One, one thing I've been thinking about recently and maybe from your last few podcasts, I got me thinking. Is age the most important thing for high level bonsai or most important aspect of high level bonsai? Is that like the number one thing above everything else? And I don't know the answer to that question. I guess when I'm talking about age, I mean both the physical long term age of the tree, like the act, how old is this tree actually? And then also the, not, not necessarily the time in the pot? Well, part of that, but like the mochikomi or the, the feeling that the tree and the pot have together showing age, are those a combination of the actual tree's age and then that mochikomi together, Is that the most important thing when it comes to high level bonsai. Do you have any thoughts on that? [00:32:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I got some flack from some of my friends from, from the Peter episode for not diving a little bit deeper into that. So I'm happy to talk about that. I mean, it's probably very personal whether you value the, I mean, I, I, I mean from a Japanese perspective, and I'm not an expert on this, but it sounds like from what Peter was saying, a lot of things are forgiven from the cultivated age of the tree. Right. So, you know, that, you know, is, is cultivated age more, more, more valuable than the precision. And I mean, in Japanese shows you see a lot of trees that look like clunkers to me and you know, they're there probably because of the provenance and the, and the age. Right. So I think the Japanese do have a lot more, add a lot more value on that in their value system. And bonsai is from Japan. And so, you know, maybe that should carry over to the U.S. i don't know. For me personally, I get a lot of enjoyment out of the kind of intangibles that come about for a tree that's been a bonsai for a long time. So, you know, I like that. But I don't know that there's a way to say objectively that is more valuable or less valuable than a good design or, you know, a, you know, a question I have for you though is Peter made this distinction about age, age of the tree being, I mean, these multiple different types of ages, but one type of age being the age of the tree. And you know, I'll often see, I think one of the main kind of friction points I've seen between like the grafting versus not grafting school is like whenever you take that Sierra juniper that's really old and you graft it, you, you, you, yes, open the, open the door to create a primary branch that has like older characteristics as a bonsai branch. But you are deleting essentially the, you know, 100 years, 150 years of growth in that primary that you cut off or whatever. Right. To, to make room for that grafted branch or like to compress the design. Right. So I'm curious how you think of that dichotomy between sometimes to make a older aged bonsai in the Japanese sense, you are removing natural age of the tree. Um, and I'm curious if you, if you think of that dichotomy at all or if that isn't, isn't a conflict or what you think of that. [00:34:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I have Some strong thoughts on that, actually. So, okay, so if you graft a Yamadori trunk, which is mostly what's going on here in the United States. Yeah, I absolutely take the a. I mean the age of the branches is very important. Some of the trees that I've collected, they have an interplay of live and dead, which is like so awesome. Right? That's what you want in branches. Or they may have some twist in them or things like that. And I do think it would be like, if you have a really badass old branch, I think it's an absolute sin to cut that off and do an approach graph onto the tree. However, you could see scion graft at the ends and then you're still keeping the age of the branch and you can lower that and use that with the scion, the new foliage, if you scion graph near the edge, the ends. So I generally think if you have old branches, you should keep them and you should try and scion graph. That's, that's the way to go. However, if you. Then it becomes a question like what's more important? So let's say maybe you have. Maybe we should keep 50 year old branches, obviously, or a hundred year old or several hundred year old branches. We should absolutely keep those. If there's a branch, maybe it's 15 years old, it doesn't have that much interest. Well, I would say that I think that you can get an approach graft to, to thicken, you can grow it out, get it to thicken and then use the foliage and then you haven't lost that much time. I mean, basically, like in my lifetime I will see a better final result with the grafted foliage compared to if I tried to keep the original foliage. So I think it's just a question of weighing what's going on with the tree. I do think you should not cut off just really old, ancient, awesome branches. However, I do think that certain times with junipers, in particular Yamadori junipers, to make a really nice compact design, which is often what I personally like. It's almost impossible to not graft them at some point. So you could. I think it'd be really cool. One thing I would love to see us do is graft our native foliage onto trees. I haven't seen anyone actually do that. Like, I've heard a lot of discussion about it and I think about it a lot, but I haven't actually seen anybody do it. I think that could be very cool. But I do think just to get that foliage closer to the trunk and make a more sustainable design. Scion grafting can be good. That's my thoughts. [00:37:55] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. I. That seems like a logical, you know, take on if you want to preserve the primaries or even some of the secondaries. Like you'll just have to scion graft and then you still get that advantage of the foliage that you want to build the. The branches with though. Like it is going to be potentially a less compact design if you Scion graph than if you. Than if you approach graph to the trunk or whatever. Right. And create a new. New set of primaries. [00:38:26] Speaker B: Correct. That. That is very true. That is very true. [00:38:30] Speaker A: I think of Peter's the tree at the last pbe. I think it won the medium category. His. You know what I'm talking about. His Shinpaku it's grafted on. It's probably California or something like that. [00:38:42] Speaker B: Was it displayed with a cork bark elm? [00:38:45] Speaker A: I think it was. Yeah, I think that was the one that was displayed with the cork bark. [00:38:48] Speaker B: Gotcha. I'm pretty sure that was a Rocky Mountain juniper. Yeah. Little rocky is like. [00:38:53] Speaker A: Oh, really? [00:38:53] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, pretty sure. [00:38:56] Speaker A: I'm. Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong. The wrong tree. Not the. Not the. No, sorry. Not. Not. Not the medium size. It would have been in maybe in the large category then. I thought he had a tree that. [00:39:06] Speaker B: Oh yeah, yeah. [00:39:07] Speaker A: The one that we California that's grafted and it. And it's. It's got. The structure is basically like this one approach graft that comes down and then builds this whole really compact, very, very nice looking and. And refined tree. Like it's. He built it from the inside out over a long time period. Um, but the structure is pretty simple. [00:39:23] Speaker B: Right. [00:39:23] Speaker A: It's literally like one approach that kind of comes down and curves down and then builds the whole tree from that. Right, Totally. So that. That's a. That's a like for that tree, for example. Maybe. Maybe the. I mean I think he did an excellent job of executing that tree. But there was probably a scenario in the beginning where he's like oh, I could create this really wide tree and utilize some of these longer branches or I can, you know, graft in the interior. And I'm just that that's something that I'm still kind of figuring out is like for Yamadori junipers, like when is it right to do that process versus utilize the. The secondaries and primaries and. And create a scions with maybe a little bit more interesting structure. And by interesting I just mean like more. More origination points for branches from the trunk, but totally, you know, it would necessitate. Necessitate it being bigger. [00:40:18] Speaker B: Right? But yeah. Yeah. I guess my thoughts on grafting Yamadori junipers is it's very case by case and it's like you gotta weigh the pros and cons for everything, every branch. But I think you make a good point in that we don't want to just wipe out the really old branches. We want to figure out a plan that works. Seems to me that a lot of Yamadori junipers, like, I know that you can either compact them or create a, like an elongated design. I feel like often there's like two trees with Yamadori. So sometimes there's one up top and sometimes there's one down below. You can make a really nice compact design on the one below. The top one could be either. I don't know where I'm going with this, but. [00:41:07] Speaker A: No, I think that's a good observation. I think that's a really good observation. I like that I, I kind of gravitate towards the, the one down below the compact one. But I want to get better at making the, the. The larger tree as well sometimes. I mean, I think it, that that can be especially compelling in the large tree category. Right. Where it's like you can have like the. The sky's the limit in terms of space. Like if you're trying to make a. Sorry. Like the extra large tree category from a show perspective. Right. Cause it's like you really don't have an upper limit on size and so you can utilize these really interesting features to make something unique and you're not getting penalized against the other trees that have more power per space. Right. So I think it might even change based on what size category tree from a judging perspective that you're trying to make. That could be a decision criteria too. [00:41:56] Speaker B: For sure. For sure. [00:41:58] Speaker A: But yeah, I think like age of the tree, I mean, to me is really compelling. Like, I agree with Peter that the, the. Sorry. Like age of. The age as a bonsai is a compelling feature of a tree. And I get a lot of enjoyment from seeing that like successive growth and patina that builds on a tree as it is a bonsai over a long time period. So I mean, I think you want to do both though. Like you want to make a really compelling design and then age it. Right. So I agree. [00:42:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I actually. One thing that I'm quite passionate about is growing trunks. And like, I'm not gonna go out and just grow like really weird trunks with like jacked up nabari and no taper. However, it would be interesting. Like, like what Peter got me thinking about is, hey, if I go out and I'm growing 50 different trunks, right, like maybe some of those weird, kind of weird ones, but for some reason I, I like it. Maybe I should keep a couple of those and grow them out long term and see what they become. And over time, it does seem like time forgives all those weird quirks and improves them to a degree. [00:43:22] Speaker A: Well, I mean, I think my. I tend to like, like weird trees, like unique trees. So I kind of like the idea of choosing some kind of unique feature and building a design around that, even if it doesn't make the optimal, you know, scale. I like, I like that idea, like walk like an Egyptian, like by Dave DeGroote, that where, you know, you had this L shaped branch at the top and he carried that through the consistency of the design and made this really cool composition. Like to me that's a very interesting way. Like that's a very stimulating design and also captures that uniqueness or like that funkiness. Like, I just, I just like whenever I'm looking for material for my own garden, I, I often look for that or like I find myself gravitating towards something that's a little. That's. That's has that unique characteristic that sticks out to me. [00:44:27] Speaker B: That's awesome. I do like that tree also. And I feel like he made something really cool out of like a design flaw technically. But he did make a really cool, interesting, engaging design. Sweet. Very nice. Well, I, I don't know exactly. I think we were talking about your trip in Japan and then we kind of went down a rabbit hole, which is great. Rabbit holes are very much encouraged. But you know, one thing that I did have here in my notes is I'm pretty sure while Kokufu, or sometime around when Kokufu was going on this year, a famous potter, Gyozon actually passed away. And I was extremely bummed about that. And he is actually probably one of he. I would say he is my favorite bonsai potter, especially when it comes to unglazed containers. I just love and appreciate his work so much. Are you a fan of his containers yourself? [00:45:35] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I think I find his work to be the most appealing of the present day unglazed potters. So I guess, strangely enough, I bought my first gyozan pot the day that he passed away. I didn't know he had passed away. I don't even know if it was news. But the first time I. On this trip to Japan, I was like, okay, I want to spend a little bit more money on pots. And I bought my first pot and it was the. It just happened to be the day that he passed away. So when I heard about that later in the week, I was really sad to hear about that because, you know, I think he was making amazing pots. And so it's really a loss for the community not to have that experience there that, that anymore. You know, I didn't know him personally or anything like that. I did, I did get to visit him, actually. I went to Tokoname a few years ago and I just was there alone. I stopped off on the train on. Between going from Kyoto to Tokyo or the other way, I don't remember, but I, I got into the town and I just, I didn't have any appointments set up or anything like that. I was like, all right, well, I, I heard there's bonsai pots here, so I'm gonna try to see some stuff. And I, I went to this store, Isamora, Isamora San's Bonsai Warehouse or something like that. I, I can share the link with anybody who's interested for the location. But I went to the store and he spoke a little. This guy, Issa Morrison was like, oh, hey, you're American. Like, you know, you're welcome to shop my pots here. Is there anything that, like, is a must see for you and like, what's your dream here in Tokoname? And I was like, well, you know, I'd love to see Gyozan. And Issamora san drove me in his car, he called Gyozan and and was like, hey, can we come over? We've got this American here. He really wants to meet you. And so he drove me over there and I got to take some, like, videos with Gyozan. And he was just such a happy, like, smiling dude. And that's so rad. He was in such good, like, he was making top tier pots when I was there. Like, he was, you know, he was really excited to show me his bonsai garden. So I was really surprised to hear that he has passed because, you know, he just seemed like somebody who was, you know, in excellent health. And so I was very surprised by that. But. And I'm sad that, you know, we won't have that source of pots in the future, but hopefully people will kind of carry on that legacy and make pots in his style, like his son or like now and others. [00:48:10] Speaker B: Yeah. What was his space like? Can you describe it? [00:48:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, he had a. You go into his house and, you know, he has a very utilitarian. I mean, I can't 100% remember, but it might have even been like kind of a dirt. Like a packed dirt floor workshop where he's got his kind of pottery and then these drying racks all around the room. So it's kind of like a house with like a, you know, a workshop area. And then he's got like a showcase of his pots and then like a kind of wooded wooden floor area that goes into, like, a fancy area. Um, and then his house is just like, you know, his. His bonsai collection is just like normal backyard. You know, it wasn't. It wasn't like a curated, you know, temple garden or something like that. It's just a dude's backyard who loves bonsai. And so it was pretty cool. But it was. It was. It was a very utilitarian space. But then he had these really nice display areas. And then. Yeah, I mean, the. The. The workshop area, like, he's standing up on like a kind of a plinth or like a table where he's working on his trees. So it was very much like a Japanese craftsman workshop area. So it was. It was cool to see. And I just. My impression of it was that there was a lot of light, and it was. It was pretty tall ceilings, too. [00:49:31] Speaker B: Gotcha. That's so cool that you were able to go see him in his element. I always appreciated that. It seemed like he had two different styles of pots. I mean, he had many, many types of pots, but he had more traditional. This is like my stupid interpretation. He had his very traditional bonsai containers, and then he had almost like an experimental type containers. And it was just really interesting to see the two different types. And I thought he did a very good job in both. I tend to prefer his more traditional. And I just think that they are so high level, so well built. I love the clay color, the texture. They're built so. So sturdily. Like, I feel like they will just last, go on forever and ever, but just such high quality containers. And then his experimental stuff was always very interesting and different, and it didn't necessarily fit inside any box or mold, but I thought it was cool that he did both. [00:50:45] Speaker A: Yeah, he gave me a little booklet when I was there that had his. He had like a display or like, I don't know, like a gallery essentially of where his new designs were all highlighted. And there was some funny stuff. He had pots with the stand built into them. So you get a two for one. That was pretty funny. [00:51:04] Speaker B: That's a trip. Yeah, that is funny. [00:51:06] Speaker A: Yeah. And then he had one where the accent plant was connected to the pot. So it was like you had a pot with a stand, and then there was like a bridge to a little accent area. So that was pretty funny. Yeah. I think a lot of his newer designs, even for like, the. I mean, those were, like, those were pretty creative. But even his more standard rectangular pot shapes, he started to add those kind of wavy bottoms to the bands. And then there were also, like, a little bit different clay color. But yeah, I also would say I gravitate more towards some of his. His traditional stuff. I mean, I even just like his production pots. Like, it doesn't have to have the fancy leaf signatures and things like that. For me, like, I love a lot of his. Just. It has a magic to it, the clay and the precision. But, like, having that tiny bit of variation even in the production stuff was really magical to me. So I picked up some pots when I was over there to have in my. I mean, I actually put one. A tree in one already, so that was good to. To have. [00:52:08] Speaker B: Sweet. Yeah. Well, Gyouzan, I was really sad to hear about his passing and. And he was an incredible bonsai container maker. And I think the. The beautiful thing about bonsai containers is that they can last forever, you know, or a very, very, very long time. Far longer than you or I, which is really cool. I mean, I think that his legacy will last a long time. Curious if his pots will go up in value now that there's not an ability to get more, uh, at least new ones. But just big fan of his work, and I thought it was worth chatting about briefly. [00:52:54] Speaker A: Yeah, they probably will go up in value. I mean, I. Even whenever I was over there, they were already. And I was like, oh, do you have any gyozan pots? And they'd be like, oh, you know, he hurt you, heard he passed away. Like, you know, the price will be a little higher. And so they're already having some of that. I mean, I've seen some posted on Facebook, Marketplace, that are asking for like three or four times the price. And I'm like, I don't know if it's gone up that much, but yeah, I. I think they're very usable containers. And they'll be. They'll be just like Suanne, kind of very, very popular into the future, but. Or shoes on. Or suisan. I'm not 100% sure how to pronounce that name. But another. Another kind of recent Japanese potter that made similar kind of unglazed containers. And you know, I don't. I think Gozon will probably hover in that same kind of price point for the squeeze on or shoes on pots. [00:53:46] Speaker B: That makes sense. That makes sense. Cool. Cool. Well, I wanted to talk with you a little bit more about your relationship with bonsai and your podcasts. I guess I was curious if there are any aspects of bonsai that really kind of fire you up right now or has anything been top of mind, bonsai related? Have you been daydreaming about anything bonsai related lately? [00:54:14] Speaker A: Too many things, Jeremiah. Too many things. [00:54:17] Speaker B: That's good. [00:54:19] Speaker A: I think there's. [00:54:21] Speaker B: Oof. [00:54:21] Speaker A: I mean for me, I mean there's. There's a few different categories. So I'll maybe outline them and then we can talk about them or not talk about them as, as they spark your interest or don't. But one is I want to keep the momentum of. I feel like for the last few years I've had a really good momentum of putting in hours of actually doing bonsai and improving at creating bonsai. So I feel myself incrementally improving. So I'm trying to find ways to keep that momentum going. Um, and then like a very kind of tactical thing that I've really been pigeonholing a lot into is trying to get, trying to get like professional polish in juniper work, especially shinpaku. So I've been going to Adam Toth's house like multiple times a month and just working on random shinpaku there or, you know, not random, but like the shinpaku that, that he, that he, you know, thinks are good teaching moments and trying to really, really start learning how to clean properly, not only the tree, but like within a pad, right? Like the distributing the positive and negative space evenly within a pad as you're doing the cleaning process. And then pad shape, pad depth to, you know, if I set up the pad struct like the inter. Within the pad structure this way. Now what does that look like three years from now? Like, does that give me the desired, desired end state product? Those kind of things. I've been pigeonholing a lot into around Shinpaku. And finally I'm starting to see and like understand a little bit more of how I accomplish that level of professional polish. And then I've been, I've been really having like popping up a lot of ideas around horticulture and water. That's been like a very like the, the science side of it. There's a lot of topics I want to explore there. Oh, and I, there's one final one. I, I got inspired while I was in Japan to try to create a. An app that you can use to ID bonsai chops. So I've been working on that. I mean, like semi bonsai related, I guess, but more like a cross between my kind of work that I do on the tech side and, and bonsai, where I'm trying to create a engine essentially that, you know, you whip out your phone or you upload a photo of a chop to a website and then it gives you, oh, this is gyozon. It spits that out. So those are the, those are the four kind of areas that I've. I don't have enough time, but those are the four areas I've been really passionate about lately. [00:57:10] Speaker B: Very nice, very nice. You know, I heard someone mention that you can use most of the LLM apps to do the chop identification. Have you tried it or have you experimented with that at all? And did it work okay for you? [00:57:27] Speaker A: Yeah, so I haven't had. I've, I've, I have. I've been testing different photos I take via. I've been, I've been looking at multiple different backend engines to actually do the identification process. And I think what I'm finding is that I'm getting the best results with an ensemble of approaches. So, you know, having a few different ways to do that. One of those, One of those pieces, one of those building blocks is using LLMs to, using LLMs to like one shot translate a bonsai pot chop. Right. But I haven't found it ultra good for some. It definitely does do it, but I'm not. Like, some of them are very stylized and some of them aren't even in Japanese. Right. So you might have Chinese ones or European potters or American potters. Right. So there's a really big variety of speakers, but definitely just asking an LLM, can you read? This is one of the, one of the pieces of the engine. [00:58:35] Speaker B: Nice. [00:58:36] Speaker A: For example, but. But another way you can use an LLM, which I'm exploring is after you've narrowed it down to, hey, my model thinks it's one of these three makers. I take the image from my backend database that represents that maker and I compare it and I ask the LLM to compare it to the, the chop that the user submitted. Right. So I just have it look at it like a human would and say, hey, is this the same stamp? And that actually works really well. So, but you, but the magic is you need to get those Three or five most likely ones to the LLM so it can compare. [00:59:13] Speaker B: Got it, Got it. Cool. Well, shoot. If you develop the app, I would happily buy or use that most definitely. That would be great. [00:59:23] Speaker A: Well, I would love to just have it be free. You can go. It's on bonesaishop ID is the website. So right now it's. It's in a data collection phase. So I'm asking people to submit photos that I can use to train my model. [00:59:39] Speaker B: Okay. I didn't realize you were actually doing this. That's fantastic. [00:59:45] Speaker A: Yeah. And then, yeah, I mean, if it doesn't cost me anything, I don't want to charge anybody. It depends on, like, if it becomes really, really used and it's costing me like 500amonth to. To, you know, host it, then I would, you know, I would have to ask for donations or something like that. Right. But, you know, we'll see if it. We'll see if I can even make it work. I want to get like some standard of accuracy. Like 80% of the time, it's. It's against my test data set. It's working. Well, maybe then I would release it and, you know, see if it gets any traction. [01:00:20] Speaker B: Sweet. Very nice. I love it. One more time with. What's that website? [01:00:25] Speaker A: Oh, Bonsaichop id. I thought that was a fun name. [01:00:29] Speaker B: I love it. [01:00:30] Speaker A: It's Indonesian domain, but, you know, it's like, you know, bonsaichop id so it kind of makes sense. [01:00:36] Speaker B: I think that works. I love it. Awesome. And then going back to your. Regarding juniper pad development and working on junipers in general, one thing I was wondering is when you're working with Adam or Ryan, Neal, how have you found to get better or. I don't know how to phrase this question appropriately, but how do you work on trees and then get feedback from Adam or Ryan so that it's most effective for you to improve in the future? Like, what's the best way for them to give you feedback and at what point in the process or. And I imagine they both probably give you feedback differently. [01:01:31] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. [01:01:32] Speaker B: Quite differently, I would guess. Like, what do you like? How do you like to get feedback? How do you like to work on a tree and get feedback? [01:01:43] Speaker A: Yeah, so while I kind of like to try to. Something that works well for me is having them set the initial pad and then I come in and try to replicate that and then they come back and correct, like the second pad and then I take those corrections and try to apply that to the rest of the tree. So that kind of process has worked pretty well for me. Um, I think the other thing is you need your teacher to give you trees that challenge you. Right. Um, so sometimes the teacher has to go out on a limb a little bit and give you something that it's like, hey, you can't mess this up. Like, this is a client tree. Or this is. This is something where, you know, this is thousands of dollars or whatever. You know, there's some. There's. There's. You know, this might be a little bit outside your comfort zone, but, you know, we're gonna work. You're gonna work on it, and then I'm gonna correct it, and we'll make sure that it ends in a good state. So. And I think, like, you have to demonstrate that you're. You have the basic skill level to not, you know, harm the tree, even if you make a mistake. Um, but, yeah, that. That process in general, is what's worked best for me. I think the other thing I struggle with is, like, sometimes you go to classes, and it's very easy to fall into the trap of, hey, you. Like, when a teacher's running a class with multiple students, like, the initial. The. The easiest thing to do is say, hey, like, here's your. Here's the next step that you need to do. Like, you go execute it. Right? But for me, that doesn't translate really well to my own. My own. My own collection. Like, I. I'm. I'm able to execute that really well. But then when I go to do it on my own tree, like, I. I'm not making the same decisions because I wasn't making those decisions when I was learning it. Right. And so I've tried to be really. I've tried to push Ryan and Adam a lot to, like, let me make a mistake or let me own parts of the process. And that's been some of my best learning experiences is when I mess up and then I get the feedback, like, hey, you can't mess up like this. Like, it's not a. It's not a great. It's not like it doesn't feel great in the moment. Right. But those are the things that stick with me and help me develop. So that's what I've. Trying to push my teachers to give me more of those moments. I mean, like, hopefully I do it right. Right. But if I do. If I do it right a hundred percent of the time, then I'm not learning anything. Right? I already learned. I already know that. Right. And so I think you need to have Those uncomfortable moments, or at least in my learning process, I like having those uncomfortable moments that stick with me and drive diff. Drive changes. Like, stick with me enough to drive changes in how I do things. Because the way I was doing it wasn't right. And so I need to have something [01:04:36] Speaker B: to correct me a hundred percent. I like that. Yeah, I feel like I. I think it's really good to challenge yourself with trying to work on an entire tree, or at least like, let's say a portion of a tree. Like, hey, I'm going to do these pads, these three pads myself, a hundred percent. And then get feedback from my teacher and say, like, wire them, adjust them, cut them back, clean them up, and then have him come in and look at him and say, like, well, you know, this angle's a little off on this pad. You should have removed this part of the foliage. Blah, blah, blah. I think that's like, such a good way to learn. Or just to do an entire tree. Do everything, start to finish, and then talk about it with your teacher. I think that is a very valuable way to learn as well. And getting the negative feedback seems it sticks a lot, I feel like, because [01:05:39] Speaker A: it's not something to take. I mean, if you're with Peter. Oh, can you hear me? [01:05:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can hear you. Can you hear me? Okay, I can hear you. Can you hear me? Oh, check, check, check, check, check, check. [01:05:52] Speaker A: Sorry, I think I unplugged my headset. One second. [01:06:04] Speaker B: Check, check, check, check, check, check. [01:06:06] Speaker A: Okay, now I can hear you. Sorry about that. [01:06:08] Speaker B: No worries. No worries. [01:06:09] Speaker A: Hopefully my headset isn't near dead. Um, so I'm. I'm curious. When you're with Peter, like, are you mostly working on your own trees or are you working on his trees whenever you're taking classes? [01:06:22] Speaker B: So I'm most almost always working on my trees. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and like, I did. So I did the intensive series with Boone, and in that scenario, I was working on Boone's trees, like, almost 100%. And then with Peter, it's mostly been working on my own trees. I've worked some on some of his trees before. And I would say at some point in the future, I would love to go to Peter's house, work on many of his trees, let's say, like junipers, for example, try and wire them out start to finish, and then have him critique my work. I think that would be very, very valuable for me. But mostly it's working on my own trees. And I will say, I think you are a much Better student of the technical side and just getting better at being a bonsai practitioner. Whereas I feel like my goals are mostly around like the quality of my trees overall. And I haven't focused so much on just getting really, really good myself. However, I would like to improve my skills. It's not something that I'm not focusing on by any means, but I think you are more hardcore and doing a better job at learning very quickly than I am. [01:07:50] Speaker A: Well, no, I would say, well, from my perspective, like you have much more demonstrated results than I do. So, you know, I don't know if I agree with that, but I, the. Before we touch on that, I just wanted to mention one thing about. I think there's certain scopes of work and this is something I've struggled a little bit with because I work at, on other people's trees at their gardens a lot. There's certain scopes of work that really nobody's going to let you do on their tree, you know. So at some point I think like one thing I might want to start bringing up trees to Ryan's place, for example, to do like structural setting on a Realmadori. Like there's some things where you have to get it right the first time, right. And you can't really make those mistakes on multi thousand dollar trees that aren't your own. So I think that's something that I need to change a little bit in the next, in my next classes is maybe bring up some like if that's the scope of work that I want to do, bring up some of my own trees to, to practice on just because, you know, then the onus is all on me. [01:08:55] Speaker B: Right. [01:08:55] Speaker A: And, and that's something that you know, I'll need to, to make as a change. So I think you're at your, your, your point of like you bringing your own trees to Peter. Like, you know, you're like Peter's there to help and guide you, but ultimately it's your tree. And so you know, he's, you know, you're able to do the scopes of work and get the practice in that you want on. Like it's 100% relevant because it's exact. It both helps you get better and also drives your goal of having the best collection. Right? [01:09:28] Speaker B: For sure. For sure. [01:09:32] Speaker A: You had this, you had this question in the, in the doc and kind of just made that mention of like focus on technical skill versus focus on like the outcome of having a good collection. Um, and I think that's an interesting topic to delve into a little Bit more. Could you kind of elaborate a little bit more on like what I've said that kind of gives you that representation or how you think that differs from your approach? [01:09:59] Speaker B: Oh yeah, most definitely. [01:10:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:10:02] Speaker B: And I, I mean basically I think it's pretty simple actually. I, I think my, my main goals with bonsai have always been around the trees. So I want really high level trees. Like, I want like I think I mentioned to you before, top seven of the species in the United States for all of my personal collection. Uh, and so I think that's a really hard goal for me to, to eventually achieve. And therefore my goals are always around the, the trees themselves. Secondarily, I'm focusing on my own personal technical skills. However, part of me has just kind of given into the idea that, okay, I'm never going to be Peter T in terms of, from a technical perspective or ability because I just don't have the hours. I'll never be able to put in the hours that Peter has. So personally I am very focused on the trees. Like my goals are all centered around my trees. I want to grow some incredible trees, I want to collect some incredible trees and I want to make sure that my main collection gets to that point and I could do that by any means necessary. So I do think that progressing my technical skills absolutely does help me to get to that endpoint. But I'm also okay working with Peter and I, and I love working with Peter. Whereas I feel like you are very interested in the technical aspects of improving and I like that. I think that's fantastic and I, I need to be better in that area. But I think that is one difference maybe between like your goals and my goals. And not, not that either of them are more right than the other or anything like that. It's just an observation maybe that, that I made, that I found is interesting. Would you agree? [01:12:09] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I, I, I do agree that we have like somewhat of a different goal or approach, which is very interesting. Until you mentioned that. Well, my first thought was like, oh, am I missing the forest for the trees? Like, is my goal actually to have, you know, top seven trees? And I'm hamstringing myself by like the best way to do that would be to, you know, work. I can still work on them, but have some of the offload, some of the decision making or polish steps to a professional right to, to you know, make, get that tree to the highest level it can be. Right. I, it's, that's a tough one. I mean, I think a lot of my motivation Traditionally has been I want, and maybe this is just like a hang up that's holding me back. But a lot of my motivation traditionally has been this is something that I'm doing for me that I want to hone myself, like use as a whetstone to like change things about myself, like to be able to be more detail oriented and to be like, just prove to myself that I can like stick with something and be disciplined enough to reach a level of execution that kind of puts me in the top percentages of people executing at this thing. Thing. Right. So, yeah, So I mean, I guess the, the hang up portion of it has been like, oh, I want, when I put a tree into the show in my personal collection, like from my personal collection, I want it to be a hundred percent my work. And so I've had a little bit of a, like intentional, like I don't bring my trees to professionals to work on because then essentially it's not my work 100%. Right. And that's pretty arbitrary. But like I, I see, I don't think I have a very like a lot of innate talent actually for making good looking bonsai. Um, I look at somebody like Matthew Glassio or Sam Tan who are able to kind of be taught something once or like innately or whatever, right. Can make these like professional level polish looking trees very quickly. And that same thing that they maybe learned in one session. It might take me like four sessions. Like I've had really embarrassing things where I go over to Adam's house and I practice this specific like juniper pad cleanup and then I go back the next week and I still mess up the same thing, you know, and so I still see myself progressing, which is like the kind of the light in the end of the tunnel and that's like what keeps me going and like what I'm excited about and like why I want to keep pursuing it. So I think, I think I can get there, but that like I want to be able to have my designs look like, like have those intangibles of a professional level of polish. And I guess that's why traditionally I've had less focus on the tree itself and more focus on my ability to execute it. So hopefully that kind of makes sense. Um, and again, I, I, I don't think there's like a better or worse way to do this. I'm just like, that's for me my personal goal. Right. So I don't know, hopefully that didn't come across across any sort of way, but I don't know that that's just like trying to examine myself a little bit. I think that's where a lot of that has come from. So hopefully that makes sense. [01:15:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, first off, I highly respect your goals and where your head's at with trying to accomplish them. And I think that trying to become a better bonsai practitioner, a tacticianer, however you, whatever you want to call it, I think that's a. That's a great goal. And I feel like you should be. Want to be the best version of. Of yourself and, and compare yourself, compare you to yourself. Don't worry about what other people are doing so much. I do feel like it's a good idea for people to be extremely clear on what their goals are. And so I think that's maybe why I'm making a distinction here. Because my goals. And I don't know if these are good goals. Like they really could not be a good goals. Like, basically I'm saying I want to be a really good bonsai collector, which. Which is weird. Like, you know, especially if you sub that out with comic books or baseball cards or sports cars or something like that. Like it does. It seems like it doesn't take like skill or talent to be a good collector. But like, that's what my goals are. I feel like in bonsai it's a little bit different. There's just so many different aspects that go into that. And to be a really high level collector, there are things that you need to be good at. And so for me, I'm just making a big distinction in that I'm not trying to be the best from a technical perspective. And that's why my relationship with Peter T. Works so well. You know, I'm going to leave that up to him. I'm going to learn. I want to get good at bonsai. I want to do a really good job. But like, I think it's really good to just think about your goals and organize them in like, what's most important to least important. Like be very, very specific. It's easy to be like very broad and general about goals. It's really hard to like, define them and. And be really honest with yourself. So I think both of us should continue to work on that. And we both are. And so I think you're doing a great job. I think I highly respect your goals and I think it's. They're awesome. So good job. [01:18:03] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I. I feel like there's. Whenever we had our first conversation, I learned a lot from your mindset and it Helped and it. [01:18:14] Speaker B: And [01:18:15] Speaker A: helped me notice things in my own practice that were deficient. Not that I have to change my goals to be the same as your goals, but there's things that I learned from your mindset around having a top seven tree and like the, the how important the material acquisition stage of like the collecting stage of trees is just as important as the actual, you know, work as well. Right. So those are, those are things like I appreciate people who have a lot of intentionality in reaching their goals and I feel like you absolutely have that. And you know, I don't think one goal is better than the other. I think to me the interesting thing is how are you optimizing and what's the intentionality behind accomplishing that goal? Right. And so like in my podcast, I guess I talk a lot about, a lot about topics that align with my intentionality or like my, my goal. And like I. But I think that's, I like to ask people about their goals too because everything is in the context of their goals. Right. And so people can kind of self select into oh like this thing works for this person because this is what they're trying to do. And I love that aspect of it. So yeah, I, I do, I do honestly worry about though, like I have this energy and passion and time to develop at Bonsai now and I feel myself incrementally improving at like that technical level of polish. But I worry about, you know, am I going to hit this point where my technical skills or my, my, my ability to progress starts to slow down? Like am I going to hit some wall with age or just like amount of energy I have to devote to things as time goes on and like never be able to reach that professional, that professional level or tier or polish. And then, you know, that is something that I worry about though. But I, you know, I, right now I just want to give it my, a hundred percent and like, you know, hopefully I'll, I'll land high enough to be able to get trees in PBE at the very least. Um, that would be, I guess one of my barometers for success or not. But yeah, that, that is something that I think about is like, you know, hey, I gotta really take advantage of all the time that I can learn now because I might not have that same motivation or ability or whatever in the future. [01:20:40] Speaker B: So I think you will, you will have that ability and drive. Just keep at it. Are you going to submit anything for next pbe? [01:20:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I've been thinking about it. I have this struggle of like, do I Have a tree or two that could get in? Probably. Would it be better if I waited? Would that tree show better at the next PBE and be like, I'd be more proud of showing it. Yes. But, like, at some point you gotta make the decision of, like, you gotta pull the trigger. Like, it would always be better two years from now or whatever, potentially. Right. So I have that struggle a little bit, but maybe I'll submit some things this year without the expectation of them getting in. But then I. I feel really strongly about, like, if I. I really need to have some stuff in the show in 2029 for sure. That's like my hard and fast goal to have at least one. To have one tree in the show in 2029. But I might submit some stuff this year, but it's just like, I've only been getting, like, I. I really didn't start buying, like, PBE quality material until three years ago. And so it's like, it's hard to build a tree in three years. Right. So it's just. Hasn't had enough time under tutelage or. The stuff that I've had for five, six years is like a $45 juniper whip from Home Depot or whatever. So it's like, not quite PB quality or won't differentiate itself no matter how much you dress it up. Right. So, you know, that's kind of where I'm at right now in my. In my personal collection. [01:22:17] Speaker B: Very cool. Very cool. Yeah, I feel like everyone struggles with that. Like, should we put it in now or wait a little bit? It'll be better. That is tough. And I guess I feel like I've come to the realization that it's just a snapshot, a window into. Of a window in time. And, you know, you put it in now and then several years down the road, you can put it in again and again and again, and the tree will evolve and improve and it's interesting to see. And so I don't know, but. But I get it. Like, especially if it's a prize contender, maybe you wait. Maybe if it's not, then I don't know. [01:23:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that's. I'm wondering how you think of that. Like, hearing you say that, it almost makes me think maybe you should always submit it. And then if it's good enough to get through the jury process, then, you know, it improves the overall quality of the show and you should maybe take your. Or, like, maybe I should take my ego out of it of, like, wanting to show up the best as possible. Maybe. Maybe It'll change after I get my first tree in too. Like, you know, I feel like I want my first tree to really represent me to my best ability. Right. And so you know that maybe there is a little bit of ego in that initial, initial tree submission and maybe I'll have be more free to add stuff in once, once I've kind of set my, I don't know, debut or whatever you want to call it. [01:23:47] Speaker B: Nice. Looking forward to that debut. Excuse me. Cool. Well, you know, I really wanted to talk to you. I feel like you have a very scientific mind and I was really impressed that you talked about the soil study that you did. I feel like bonsai is so interesting because we learn things so much from a anecdotal experience as opposed to scientific study. Maybe would you start by talking a little bit about the soil study that you did? I thought that was really cool and I would love for you to break it down for us. [01:24:32] Speaker A: Oh, break it down. I like the pun there. Break down the soil. Okay. So I, you know, I studied chemical engineering in school and you know, so I've always been interested in science and the process of science and I like the idea of, you know, I've always really enjoyed reading about other people like growing seeds in different mediums and then measuring the, you know, the height of the seeds after X months or whatever and just having some like empirical evidence to back up viewpoints. Right. And having reproducible experiments I like, I think that's a good way to learn over time and help people progress so. And create reproducible results. Right. So I, but whenever I came to bonsai I felt like, you know, I never studied agricultural or like biology related stuff really like heat exchangers aren't really. And mass flow aren't really what I studied in school aren't really relevant to bonsai directly. So I wanted to like read some of the foundational textbooks and scientific articles around horticulture to. I mean my, my hope is that it will help me grow better trees over time. Right. And I just like to understand things so. Or like seek a model to understand things that allows me to generalize some of my findings. Right. So. And like just make a, make a, like when as I'm making a decision, I have some reason behind why it. Is it right or is it wrong? I don't know, maybe my model that I've built up isn't good enough. Right. But that, that will be informed and refined over time. So I like that idea. Um, so yeah, I, I looked into both water and soil From a. And I wrote a series of articles. This was my first one of my first attempts to kind of similar to the podcast, like, find where my place is in the community, like how I can connect with folks and add value. And you know, my blogs didn't end up being super popular, but I had a lot of fun adding something where I did a bunch of research and cited it really rigorously and then showed it to folks. So I wrote a few articles on soil and a few articles on water and yeah, the soil study that you're kind of talking about. I, I was just curious and other people have done this too, so this wasn't anything groundbreaking, but I just wanted to see, like, hey, if I set up an experiment like I would have in a lab in, in college with some of the equipment I have, you know, how of the soils we use, like Akadama, pumice, lava and I guess organic material like potting soil, um, how much water do they hold? How quickly do they lose? How, how, how moisture retentive are they and how quickly do they lose water? Um, like how much water do they hold? Sorry. And then how much, how quickly do they lose that water over time? So, you know, we hear about, oh, Akadama is the moisture retentive component, but we don't often have like, is that right or not? Who knows? Right. So I wanted to test that and I want to see people do more of challenging some of our assumptions and seeing whether they're correct or not. [01:27:45] Speaker B: So. Awesome. And so, so tell us about how you actually tested these things and what were the results? [01:27:55] Speaker A: Yes, so, sorry, that was a long diatribe to not get to the point. But yeah, so essentially what I did was I, I did a few things. One, I just put soil in a draining like container in a plastic cup and I packed it so that it would simulate the kind of void space volume and simulation, simulate the situation that you have in a, in a pot. And then I, I created cups of all of these mixtures with holes in the bottom. And one was like akadama, one was pumice, one was lava, one was organic material. And I weighed them dry and then I soaked them all and let them drain. And then I measured the weight of the container with the kind of soaked medium directly after, directly after as well. So. And then I, every 15 minutes for a few hours, I just weighed them again and saw how quickly they lost water. So I think my study, my, the results were actually fairly straightforward or like matched with my, what I would expect. Right. So I tried Two different types of akadama. One was a small particle, and one was a large particle. The small particle held more water and dried a little bit more slowly. The large particle, you know, has more airspace and less soil space, so it held a little bit less water and dried a little bit more quickly. But Akadama was, like, probably 50% or more held more water than the other components than. Than lava and pumice. And then in my results, actually, lava held more water than pumice, which I thought was interesting and was contrary to studies that I've seen previously. So I would love for somebody to reproduce that and see maybe. Maybe my pumice is a little different than the pumice that other people were using. Right. I mean, there's obviously regional variations in these rocks. Right. So there will be some amount of variability. But, yeah, pumice lost water really quickly, so it dried out very quickly. And then lava also dried out pretty quickly relative to Akadama. But, yeah, that was kind of the results from those main components. And then my organic matter actually didn't drain really well at all. So that might have been, like, an experiment design issue, but. Or maybe it's a component of organic matter. But, yeah, that. That I would maybe discard those. That part of the results. But the other stuff was pretty. I felt, like, pretty reproducible. [01:30:32] Speaker B: Nice. I feel like that just kind of confirms what I thought. Akadama does hold a lot of water, especially compared to pumice and lava. If I remember correctly, I think that lava wasn't. It didn't hold that much more water compared to pumice. Right. Like, the difference between akadama to lava was much more significant than lava to pumice. [01:30:55] Speaker A: Yep. [01:30:56] Speaker B: Which I always wondered about. Like, I had. I didn't know. And so your. Your study helped me out there. One thing that I follow, Peter t. Often, he just says, use pumice or lava or a mixture of both. And I think that kind of confirms what Peter said, because there is a difference in. In water holding capacity, but it's pretty close, so maybe it's not all that important. [01:31:22] Speaker A: I mean, interesting. It's interesting to hear that and kind of. Yeah. And then connect it to these kind of empirical results, like, connect the anecdote to, like, oh, maybe this is why. Yeah, I hadn't heard that before. [01:31:34] Speaker B: So, yeah, I mostly use pumice, like pumice and akadama in my mixes, but this year, actually, I used some lava. And so it's gonna. And so far, I mean, my trees are growing great. I, I did hear there was like, definitely drama going on. There were some hot takes going on regarding lava. Like people hated lava for a while. I wonder if that is still going on or, or I don't know if it was like bad batches of lava or what, what the deal was exactly, but people were saying that there was a lot of. [01:32:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I think Michael Hagedorn and yeah, Andrew Robson had a pretty spicy set of comments that they had put out there about like, hey, lava isn't, isn't good. I mean, when I was over in Japan, there were some growers that were a hundred percent lava. Adam Toth uses a lot of lava. So, I mean, yeah, there could have been bad batches or something like that, but I think, you know, it is a fairly similar volcanic medium to pumice, for example, and even Akadama. So. [01:32:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I wonder. [01:32:40] Speaker A: Not terrible. [01:32:41] Speaker B: Yeah, it'd be really interesting to test that lava that they had and then test other lava just for, I don't know, something bad in there. What would it be? Bacteria or. [01:32:54] Speaker A: Well, I think they were. I mean, wouldn't. It's. It's a pretty inorganic mix, so there's not really a lot of. I'm. I doubt there's a huge bacterial load in there. I imagine it could have been something like. I think they were talking about maybe there was a high amount of boron or something like that, so some sort of like toxic chemical that was from the place that it was mined. So I don't know. I don't know. I actually don't even know the effects of boron, for example, on plants or like what. Yeah, what, what concentrations are dangerous. So it's hard for me to say, but I think that's what I had heard was there was some boron scare or something like that, but I don't know how that would be kind of hard to test. Like, I don't know, there's not like a. There's not like a boron meter that a hobbyist would have or something like that. [01:33:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Well, speaking of hard to test in your mind, what makes it so challenging to run tests? Effective, efficient and effective tests for bonsai, [01:33:54] Speaker A: you know, I don't think it's as hard as we make it out to be to some extent. Right. Like we. Well, one thing that's challenging is scale, right? The, you know, how many, how many Sierra junipers do you have in your collection? Right. It's like you probably have a lot and it's probably less than 15. Right. So, you know, to get Statistically significant results. There have to be some controls in place. Right. And you have to have some, some amount of scalability of the, the, the test. Right. And so, you know, if you're just, if you're trying to feed two different trees differently and see the results. Well, I'm probably not going to base my life on, oh, I tested two trees and one grew more and one grew less. Like it could have been anything. Right. Like there could have been different, different, all sorts of differences. Right. In the treatment of those plants that could have led to that. Right. And so whenever people do agricultural studies, they're testing like acres and acres of fields against other acres of fields and they're doing that across the whole county and stuff like that. So, you know, the scale of tests is difficult in bonsai. Right. It's hard to have, you know, a meaningful amount of the same thing to test with. Right. But I think, I think we can do kind of pseudo scientific experiments where we still do try to measure and track things and keep them as similar as possible and compare results. Right. So that's one challenge. I think the other challenge is like, trees are very complex systems and it's hard to see what's going on inside them. Right. So it's not super easy to test. Like, how does the composition of like inside the tree change due to external factors that I've added. Right. I think Ryan's tried to do that to some extent with the apical tests and I think that's an interesting. I don't know a ton about those, but like burning up the leaves and then measuring the composition of the leaves is an interesting way to, I mean, seems valid to me to measure the composition in the tree. But again, there's a scale problem where it's like, you know, these. Even if you have two Sierra junipers, they can have such different genetics and like, histories growing from, you know, one could have been picked up in a thousand miles from another and could have totally different kind of source conditions that it was grown in that could lead to different results down the line in the composition. So that, that, that part is, that part is, is difficult to do at scale to get these, I don't know, like, accurate or reliable or reproducible tests. Right. The main thing about science is it has to be reproducible, otherwise there's no value in it. So that's the, that's the biggest challenge, I think. [01:36:48] Speaker B: Got it. Yeah, it seems, seems like to me, I mean, pretty straightforward. You could test a lot of things. It's just all about time and effort. Like you, you just have to put in a lot of time and effort, which is something that I do care about. But I like, I really like to know I have a lot of questions in my mind when it comes to bonsai. But is it worth getting the actual answers? I don't know, because it seems like a whole lot of time and effort to test these things. Um, are there any things that you would like to. To test that you. You think you are probably will in the near future? I saw some stuff on multi nut regarding water. [01:37:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So something that's really fascinating me right now is like, what is good and bad water? Because we hear that a lot. Like I've heard you say, like, oh, our. You know, I had to do an RO system because my water's bad. Well, okay, you know, how is. If I see that my water has, you know, 80 parts per million calcium versus 10 parts per million calcium, like, how do I tell which one's good and which one's bad? Right? So, like, I believe people who say that. And I want to try to look a little bit more empirically at like one thing we can do or what I'm doing right now. I'm actually planning a podcast episode on this. So I'm, I'm thinking with one of my friends on looking into these questions, but essentially what the tests that I have planned right now are. Step one, we collected a bunch of water reports from people in both quotes, unquote, good and bad regions. And we're trying to, you know, just pull out the key parameters of the water from each of those municipalities and say, like, oh, okay, the good areas had an average of 80 tds, and the bad areas has an average of 320 tds. Right? And that, that comes some, to some extent helps us start looking at what is a meaningful concentration of these ions in my tap water that might be good or bad and might trigger me to take some sort of remediation step. Right? So that's the first thing is just like mining data from existing reports and kind of doing a little bit of analysis to see what it tells us. The second thing I want to do is the, the big question that this, this like looking at tap water. So seriously, the big, the big question that it brings up for me is like, how much does the tap water actually even influence the soil plus water solution? Right? Which is what in my model or my mind impacts the nutrient uptake in the tree? So I'm, I'm doing an experiment where I'm testing my water with A PH meter and an alkalinity tester and TDS meter before I put it into the pot. And then I'm soaking the pot, and then I'm catching the water as it comes out of the drainage hole. And then comparing the. The. Those parameters. Right. So that might tell me, like, does the soil actually impact the ph and the. And the TDS and things like that, or does the water overpower? And then if the water overpowers the soil medium, then that would tell me that maybe looking at my tap water is more important as opposed to less important. Right. So I want to look at that. That's. That's like an actual, like, physical test I want to do. And then I think it'd be interesting to look at it over time, too, to see, like, does my soil, like, get broken down or spent over time? Does the tree interact with the. With the. Well, I mean, the tree does and the bacteria in the soil do interact with the soil chemistry to, you know, impact the soil water solution. So that's something I want to look at. And then the third component of it is I want to look at fertilizers and break down, like, my hypothesis is that fertilizer is effective and says on the package exactly what concentrations you're using. Right? So down to the, you know, gram, you can tell, okay. Whoever formulated this fertilizer mix thinks that, you know, 2 milligrams per two weeks of calcium is meaningful. And so I want to just break that down a little bit more explicitly and then compare it to what's in our water so that we can make a decision of, like, hey, are. Is any of this stuff in our water any meaningful amount? Like, which of these components is it really important that we need to make sure that we're supplementing? So those are the three kind of studies that I'm working on right now for a future podcast episode. Um, and there's all sorts of other stuff I want to test, but I'm trying to keep myself locked down to just that for now. [01:41:41] Speaker B: Yeah, very nice. Well, I definitely think that water quality is something that I'm very interested in. I really look forward to hearing the results that you. That you find out. I do feel like there's just so many variables within Bonsai. Like, when you just, for example, looking at. When you test the water that comes out of the pot, it's like, okay, was that a shohin bonsai in 100% akadama, or is it a large tree in 40% akadama, you know, 60% pumice? Is that as deciduous tree? Is that yamadori? When was it collected? Like there's just all these different variables that like are going to change so many things. It gets confusing to me. Uh, and I just don't. I. It's hard to. For me to wrap my mind around how we actually find out how much good water actually has a positive effect on our bonsai. [01:42:47] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I mean anecdotally, how did you see a difference in like, what kind of differences in your practice did you see when you switch to RO? And with your switch to RO, are you totally stripping it down to like 0tds or are you leaving in or reminis mineralizing at all? Your, your, you know, your effluent, your water that comes out of the RO system? [01:43:11] Speaker B: So no, I am only using a three stage reverse osmosis system. I believe there's four stage reverse osmosis systems which actually strip it close to zero parts per million. Or what is the E tds yeah, yeah, same thing. [01:43:28] Speaker A: Yep. [01:43:29] Speaker B: And so mine, I. I want to say I can't even remember, but it's like anywhere from. And it ranges, right? Your water never stay out of the tap. Like it's always going to range a bit. I think it. Mine ranges probably from like 300 to let's say 425 or something like that out of the tap. When I use my RO system, it's usually anywhere from, I don't know, like 30 to 60 or so. So that's like, like the lowest I've ever been able to get it was maybe 30. Um, and so I feel like I don't really have to worry about getting it close to distilled levels where it may. I have to worry about leaching. But anecdotally I do feel like I've seen a, a significant difference in the, the health and overall growth of my trees. I think mostly I can tell in deciduous trees compared with conifers. Like conifers, I can't tell as much of a difference. It seems like they're okay with bad water, quote unquote, bad water. And I don't know, like, it's hard. It's hard to say exactly. Just the growth seems better. Seem more resistant to pest and disease, more resistant to fungal issues. I would get some weird just things with the leaves often and then my pots would get like a white buildup on them and I don't get all those things anymore. And so I'm definitely a fan of RO systems. If your PPM or, or TDS is somewhat high I just feel like it makes sense to me to strip out whatever else is in the water, not completely down to like distilled levels or if you did that and you threw a few drops of any liquid fertilizer in, in your water supply, it would seem to take care of the potential leaching issues. But I feel like having clean water just makes sense in my mind. But I don't really know. But that's kind of my thoughts on water. [01:45:42] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, yeah, I don't want to, I don't want to spoil the results too soon, but. Because I haven't done all the analysis yet. But what I'm imagining is a lot of the places that have good water are going to be in that 30 to 100 tds kind of stuff in them. And anecdotally what I've heard is people that are in the three hundreds to five hundreds, they're having, they're the ones who are having problems, especially with deciduous trees. So, you know, well, let's see what the reports say, you know, when we bring in 10 or 15 and see if there's any commonalities or not. And I imagine the, I mean, in US Tap water, the, the dissolved solids are almost totally like calcium bicarbonate. So it's a, it's something that affects the PH of the solution by making it more basic. Um, and it has, you know, it increases the buffering capacity, so it makes the water affect the soil solution more. Um, and, but also calcium is important micronutrient for plants. So I think there's, I think that, that's, that, that 30 to 60 is maybe a. I don't know, but that could be a sweet spot where you're still getting that calcium, but you're not having as much of a buffering capacity on the soil, so you're not increasing the ph a ton. And so your fertilizer is more effective because your, your soil solution is more closely in that like, you know, you've seen those charts where it shows the like, optimal PH range for absorption of different nutrients. Um, so lower ph, like in that 6.5 range for the soil solution impact, like is optimal for a lot uptake of a lot of the major nutrients that we, that we use in Bonsai. So theoretically, you know, you're decreasing the tds in your water directly impacts those two things and so would lead to [01:47:42] Speaker B: better results potentially for sure. Have you tested any of your trees with apical. I feel like you could geek out on that. [01:47:51] Speaker A: I would, I would really enjoy that. I just love having the data. I have not. Yeah, I have not. I mean, because I'm not using like the apical fertilizer system, for example. So I mean, the, the, the idea with apical is you test your leaves or your, your foliage and then you apply very targeted elemental mixes of fertilizer to optimize or like, try to improve the uptake of nutrients that you're lacking or not or like, you know, or vice versa for stuff that you want less of. Right. But I just use miracle grow or like a 20, 20, 20 fertilizer, inorganic soluble. So I can't, if I tested, I wouldn't be able to change anything. So it's not really super valuable for me to test. And maybe if I was having problems with my trees, but everything grows pretty healthily, so that's a little bit less of an incentive to like spend hundreds of dollars when, you know, if it's not, if it ain't broke, don't fix it kind of thing. Right. But I do like the idea of using evidence as a, as a, you know, to make decisions in how you impact your trees. I like, that is an interesting idea. I like, like my scientific brain that appeals to me, but I just haven't had to use that as a tool in my garden yet. [01:49:13] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. Very nice. Well, I guess last question regarding scientific studies, like, if you had unlimited funding and a magic wand, is there. What are some things that you would love to know the results of or what would you test? [01:49:40] Speaker A: Man, that's a tough one. I mean, I think the coolest thing would be cracking the code on [01:49:48] Speaker B: how [01:49:48] Speaker A: to get the densest tree possible. Like, what combination of years in a pot and soil mixture and fertilization. Like, I would just have hundreds of, you know, whatever species I want to target for this analysis, like trident maple or something like that. I would just have hundreds of them from the same genetic. And I would be like trees that are pretty far along in their development process. And I would be trying to see what kind of like, what, what helps me optimize for the type of growth that I want the most. I think that would be super cool. [01:50:28] Speaker B: Um, Brad. I like that. [01:50:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I mean, for conifers, I feel a little bit less, I guess, about that. Like, I want it to grow healthily, but, you know, I feel like conifers you kind of have some more control over, like if you do this cleaning and rebalancing process pretty well, like you don't have a ton of unusable growth. You know, what I mean, like, a trident might send out these long shoots and then. Or a Japanese maple, like, might be too coarse, or the internodes might be too long and you lose a bunch. But you don't really have that same, like, internode length problem with conifers. I mean, with a lot of conifers. Right. So it's a little bit less interesting to me. I think the other thing would be trying to figure out how to make plants more disease resistant because without spraying, pesticides and fungicides, like, I rely heavily on those today and because it works. But I don't, you know, I don't want to get Parkinson's disease or cancer or something like that because of, you know, for sure, because of these spraying or, you know, my cat goes and hangs out in the garden. So, like, I don't. I don't want him to be impacted by that or my wife, you know, because the trees are right outside in my garden. So undoubtedly, like, if I'm using harsh pesticides, those are getting, you know, into my system and my family's system. And like, that's not worth it. So having being able to spray less or test out a variety of less, like, proven to be less impactful to humans, pesticide methods, those would probably be like the two highest priority studies that I would try to pursue. [01:52:17] Speaker B: Fantastic. I would love to know those results as well. So hopefully we can find you a magic wand somewhere cool. [01:52:29] Speaker A: Once I retire and I have a bonsai farm or something like that, I'll take experiments under advisement. [01:52:35] Speaker B: Awesome. Awesome. All right, well, you know, we're already getting close to the two hour mark. Uh, I was thinking maybe we hit two more topics, if that's okay, kind of skipping to the end. Is that. Is that cool with you? [01:52:51] Speaker A: Yeah, that sounds good. [01:52:52] Speaker B: Okay. You know, I. I've heard you talk about on your podcast that you really love twisted junipers. I was curious, is that correct? Like, is that one of your favorite trees to play around with and what maybe draws you to them? If that is correct, and I apologize if I was not understanding that. [01:53:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm trying to. I'm trying to think about what this is hearkening back to. I mean, I. Junipers and redwoods are like my two kind of focus species, so that's where I'm diving the deepest. I love the. With junipers. I love the. I love Shinpaku foliage and I love the flexibility and the amount of. Amount you can wring out of a design with, with the material, like the ability to bend it. And it's just very resilient and it grows really well in my climate. So that's definitely a big focus for me. I mean who doesn't like twisty twisted junipers? But I think for me, like, for. There's two ways that I really like junipers. I really like shohin junipers and the idea of like building these really, you know, compact tight trees with maximum degree of interest and live and dead interaction. So I love that. And I'm trying to grow like that's my one grow project that I'm allowing myself is like crops of itoi Gawa and Kishuu juniper whips to create shohin future shohin. I just think there's a lot to learn there, right? Like the carving process and the deadwood creation process and the, the like growing process. So it's just very enticing to me. And then you know, I love Yamadori and like the design space and the, I just love seeing old deadwood. I think you describe it like the shark skin or the dragon skin deadwood. Like seeing those really unique things that you can't recreate that are one of a kind and you can build designs around like that's, that's peak bonsai for me. So those are things that I've been collecting junipers the last few years that I'm trying to learn how to make those into bonsai trees. And those are kind of my, that, that's, that's my twisted juniper spiel. So I don't know if you want to pull anything out of that, but that, that those are the kind of two ways that I interact with junipers today. [01:55:20] Speaker B: Yeah, well that, that's fantastic. So I also like those little twisted like man made shimpaku junipers. And then I also like you Yamadori junipers as well. But I kind of have them divided very much in my mind. So. And I don't know if this is a great way to think about it or not, but I feel like the Yamadori collected trees. That's like re. I don't know, you might get mad at me for this. That's like real bonsai and then the man made ones. Not that it's not real bonsai, but it just has a different feel. It's like an imitation of the Yamadori and it's man made and I, I feel like, you know, that's how it is. Uh, so I also can't resist twisting up a few junipers every year and I've been making several and I, I want to some point I want to show you some of the ones that I have because they're starting to look pretty cool, some of them, these little twisted projects that I've been making. But I do kind of divide them up in my mind. Do you. Would you agree with that? Do you. Do you do the same thing or am I talking blasphemy here? [01:56:39] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I definitely do as well. I mean, I think there's a third category which is like the really large, like, Taiwanese built, like, made junipers, which I think are really impressive and get really close to looking like yamadori. But I, you know, that's. That I just don't think there's the infrastructure here to be making those right now. Right. We just don't have the raw material or like the pipeline of those trees. But yeah, I would say they're very different pursuits. And I think that's part of the reason why I'm pursuing them with different teachers. Like, Ryan doesn't have any shohin junipers in his collection that I'm aware of and is not really super interested in shohin. So if I. So I. I learned chimpaku and shohin junipers with Adam because he's really interested in it and he has a ton of them and like, that's a focus area for him and I learn a lot. But Adam can work on yamadori, but he doesn't have a lot of yamadori to work on. It's not a focus area for him. And I think Ryan's the best in the world, at least for like, the initial creation. And. Well, I. I just think he's amazing at making yamadori conifers and so that I focus on that with him when I'm there. So I definitely do have them segmented pretty heavily in my practice. I think there is some overlap, right. Like making a pad on a small. I mean, as long as the foliage is the sh is the same. Like, making a pad is similar though. Like the number of pads and the. The degree of unification you do might be different, obviously in a small design versus a large one. Um, and like, the carving and cleaning process is similar, though obviously at a smaller scale. Um, so I don't know. I think there's similarities, but I definitely segment them pretty heavily in my practice into like, two different domains and like, areas of growth. [01:58:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that makes total sense. Working on the shohin with Adam and the big boys with Ryan. I think it's so cool that Adam is going in really specializing in shohin. I feel like that's like lacking here. Excuse me. So I'm really excited about that and love both those guys. Where was I going? Oh, and not to say with the shohin junipers that are man made. You like two points about those. One, I feel like you can get more interest with a, with a man made shohin, like more twist and curve which is like so cool. Then often in the big yamadori, but they do have a different feel. And then the second point that I wanted to make was with those little shohin trees. I do think that as time goes by and they get really old and the deadwood ages naturally, it has a lot of time to age that they can get really cool characteristics and to a point where it looks like yamadori with the passage of a lot of time. However, still divide them up very much into like two different things. I feel like in Japan the man made ones are like way less valuable where yamadori is, is worth way more. Over here it's kind of different because we don't really have those man made things. So like maybe there's a big market for that for them. And I think they're just less common over here but super fun to create, that's for sure. [02:00:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I've been seeing some of your pictures. I feel like you've posted a few pictures of them on Instagram and I was eyeing them. They're ones in the ground and stuff. I just really like. That's something that when I went to Gafu 10, those really spoke to me and I wanted to have those when I got home and nobody was making them. So you know, if there's no pipeline then I got to make them myself. So I started learning that and I've had a lot of fun with that and it's just a, it's just like a fun. I personally enjoy working on them more than large trees just because it's a little bit less of a time investment and I'm fine that I'm like getting better at it a little bit faster. Like a lot of the structural work with really big trees is difficult and it's harder to get reps on and so I'm learning a little slower. So I don't know, I'm just having fun with it and I want to make cool little shohin junipers. Yeah, I guess there is like a large market for it. But you know, I'm not really doing it at a scale that's gonna like. I'm just doing it for myself. Maybe I'll sell the ones that I don't like don't catch my mind as much of my kind of crops of them. [02:01:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:01:16] Speaker A: But it's, it's fun to do so. [02:01:18] Speaker B: Awesome. How do you decide to like how do you learn or how do you decide to put movement in into them or what's your approach to putting movement into them? Because I think that's an. Kind of just an interesting subject. [02:01:35] Speaker A: Yeah. So I essentially. Yeah, no, this is all stuff that I've learned from, from Adam. He's definitely the guy to go to for this because he was making them with taiga and taigas. Taigas are the ones that I fell in love with when I was in Japan. So he was definitely the right source of, of this information. Tyga had shohin junipers in Kokofu 100 that won the show. So I got to see them at his garden after like right up close, right in front of my face after the show, which was fun. [02:02:07] Speaker B: That's rad. [02:02:09] Speaker A: Yeah. So twisting up junipers, I mean essentially I take them whenever they're kind of like a lot of people twist them up too soon. You want em to be pretty thick already. Like just thick enough that you. Well, it depends on what size you're aiming for. Right. If you're aiming for mame, you can maybe twist em up whenever they're smaller cuz you want even more insane movement. But like the. And I guess take all this with a caveat of like I haven't successfully made top tier shohin junipers yet. So this is what I'm doing now. But you know, who knows if it'll work out. But this is what I've learned and this is, this is what I've kind of captured so far from my studies here and in Japan. A lot of the best ones, like the ones that really capture me are like actually big trees that they, you know, totally carve down. Like these are trees that are, you know, chewing or bigger sized trees that they're, you know, they're two inches thick, trunk at the base, that they're kind of really paring back a lot of material. Right. We just don't have a lot of that stuff. So I'm kind of approaching it from the starting them from whips, growing them for a long time in pots and then I might have slightly smaller like they might not be like the top end of shohin size like kind of edging into kefu which is where a lot of the really compelling ones for me are. But they might end up being in the like more, more, more fully shohin size is what my expectation of this. But we'll see. Um, but yeah, so because I'm not growing them in the ground, they're probably not going to get that trunk caliper in an appreciable timeframe. So, yeah, whenever they're about a kind of my pinky finger thick, I will twist them up. You have to think about what you're trying to accomplish, Right. In general, junipers are used. Shohin. Junipers are used on the outside of the box, and they're very directional, right. So you're almost always going to want something that has a lot of movement in it and leans over to the left or to the right, depending on which direction you're going. Right. So I almost always am adding some sort of. I try to vary whether I'm applying my wire clockwise or counterclockwise so that I can have a variety of end shapes as well. Because I found myself at the beginning in my first crop, I always applied the wire with the same way and I ended up with the same directionality in the tree. Right. So that's something to think about too. But try to alternate that. And then I twist the trunk and I just try to add what I think is going to be an interesting line. I tried to, like, trace lines from trees in kokfu and things like that and then make that line as the, like, center line of my tree too. But I don't know how to describe, like, interesting movement. And I'm not the best at creating it, but I try to make interesting movement that will grow and can get. You have to keep in mind that you want it to be a little bit less. Like, it can't be too squiggly or when it thickens, it's all gonna merge together. Right. So you have to keep in mind if you want a bigger shohin, then you have to make the curves a little bit less. You know, it can't be like a spaghetti. And then the secret, though is you gotta twist it. So as you're. As you're twisting the tree in, like this corkscrew or whatever, you also have to make sure that the foliage and the tissue is twisting. I mean, there's a fine line between like, killing the tree and adding that twist. But really, whenever you pull your fibers, like really far down the line in your process, you want the fibers to naturally twist around the trunk, Right. And so you have to build. If you just end up adding movement into the trunk and the. The. You don't add any movement radially within the trunk. I don't Know if that's the right way to describe that, but hopefully that makes sense. Then whenever you naturally pull the tree, it's going to. The fibers are going to be straight as well. Right. And you want some degree of twist to the fibers. So I try to add that twisting in, and then, yeah, I just twisted up just the main trunk line. Whenever I'm doing the first, like, twist up of the whip, and then down the line, I add movement to the next sections right. As those start to thicken. But, yeah, that's kind of my basic process. [02:06:22] Speaker B: Very nice. I like it. I feel like when people are twisting up the junipers, I almost feel like you don't want to overthink it so that you kind of do this exact same approach or put the exact same movement into it. Like, I'm not sure if that is correct or not, but that's kind of how I think about it. Like, I don't know necess. I almost, like, don't think about it too much. I just bend it in funky shapes and add lots of twist and curve. I almost think it's impossible to actually predict what the entry is going to look like from, like, the first twist. Like, I. I just don't know how you could know. And so I guess my thought, like, I wonder if even, like, a. Like a taiga knows if he's putting that first twist in. He's like, okay, this is what it's going to look like eventually. [02:07:21] Speaker A: I feel like I would say no. I would say no because, like, even when I'm working with Adam, he's going, okay, I don't know where the front's going to be at all. I'm just trying to add some interesting movement that has the possibility to age into something cool. And then whenever I actually get to the styling process, like, it could be a totally new tree to me that I've never seen before. Like, I'm deciding on the front there. It wasn't grown in its, you know, intended front. Right. [02:07:47] Speaker B: So totally. Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like, you know, what type of movement should go into the trunk, but not necessarily what the exact final result would be. That would be almost impossible to predict. One thing that I've really thought about when it comes to growing trunks is that you want to cull down. So, like, starting with a large number and then over time, refining that, I think that makes a lot of logical sense to me. So, like, if you want to get to 10, 10 junipers, maybe you should start with, like, 120 or something like that. And then Maybe every couple years weed a few out. That, that's hard to do because it requires more space and things like that. But I do feel like if you really want to get to like an awesome pole, an awesome end result, like, you're going to have a few absolute gems out of the batches that you, that you have. So, like, I personally am all about like culling down as a strategy for growing chunks. [02:08:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that makes sense. I, I, the other thing I'm trying to do is, and this was actually inspired by you, is I need to start, like, if I just start growing these, it's going to be 30 years before I, you know, have a, you know, a finalized example. So, and I won't be, you know, I won't be, know that I'm actually good at making the final part of it without, you know, having those examples. So I've been trying to buy the top examples of these that I see and invest more in my collection so that not only do I have these ones that I'm growing, but I have these ones that are examples of what I'm trying to get to. Right. And, and not in a disingenuous way of like, oh, this is what I've made, but like, you know, you have to have these things in all stages of development and if you wait 20 years for it to get to the stage when you start making an actual tree out of it, then like, you know that that's probably not the best way to get to that collection. Right. You can, you can develop your practice a lot more and learn a lot more and make a better end product by, by having things in all those stages so that you learn the lessons, hopefully in advance of, you know, how you should be growing them to get the product that you want. [02:10:03] Speaker B: Beautiful. Love to hear it. And I'm glad I encouraged you to spend more money. I hope, hope your wife is good with that as well. Fantastic. Fantastic. Well, yeah, I think that's great. Like, I, I do think you are clearly extremely passionate about bonsai. And so I feel like you should put financial resources into obtaining really high quality material and you'll get a lot from that. So I like it. Nice. Okay. Well, I think there was one more thing, unless there was anything else you wanted to hit on regarding junipers. [02:10:44] Speaker A: No, this has been super fun. Yep. [02:10:46] Speaker B: Cool. [02:10:46] Speaker A: Cool. [02:10:47] Speaker B: Okay. Well, I guess the last thing or topic that I wanted to hit on was bonsai clubs. And so maybe let me start and then I have some questions for you. So essentially at some point in my lifetime I would really like to get a club going on here on the Central Coast. Like, I really would love to get help, develop, play a leadership role and help develop a club or some type of bonsai crew here on the Central Coast. And I think I want to do it in, in a club format. However, I like to really think about, not necessarily how things have been going previously, but like, I almost want to start from scratch. And like, I think that there are problems with bonsai clubs, but then they can also be really beneficial. And so I guess what I'm trying to do is create like the ideal bonsai club. If I were to start a bonsai club, probably not going to do this for another 10, 15 years or so. But eventually I'd really like to have a club here on the Central coast. My kind of thought, and I wanted to get your feedback on this is I really liked the way that Boone had his club structure. So he had Bay Island Bonsai back in the day shout out to Boone. There are a few things that I loved about what Boone was doing. Like one, he had the whole club centered around the idea of having a club show. And so I think for me, if I had a club, I would probably want people to submit trees to the Pacific Bonsai Expo. And then that would be like the end goal kind of thing, right? A crew submitting trees up to the Pacific Bonsai Expo. But then kind of secondarily, maybe we would have a club show every like two or three years or so. And we would also like a local club show. We would show trees there. I would say I would like, probably paid workshops and I would really like to. Well, actually, I'm going to stop right there. What do you think about a structure like that and how have clubs. How's clubs been for you currently? I think I asked you too many questions there. [02:13:22] Speaker A: No, no. Yeah. I mean, it's really cool to hear about your dream for a club. I think the most important thing to making that successful is finding, well, I mean, again, limited experience. But I. I think the most important thing that stuck out to me is like, what makes that magical? What you just described is the group of people that come together with a shared goal to make it happen. Right. Know what I've learned from doing a club and I've been on the board for the East Bay Club for six or seven years now, and I've been the president the last two years and the vice president the year before that. Is that really one man or one person can't make a club or, I mean, you can, but it's just, you've got to be really committed and it's going to take a large amount of your time. Right. And so really what the club becomes is not just dependent on this one hero figure, but dependent on the people that make it up and their interests too. So I would leave some degree of, I would leave some degree of flexibility in your end design for the democratic approach of like, what do people actually want to do? You know, you can just be that one strong figure, but then the club kind of lives and dies with you and your effort. Right. And that may or may not be something that you want to take on, right? Yeah. Your question about like, what do I think of that structure? To me, that's a very appealing structure, right? That's a very cool, like, I think that drives people to get better at bonsai and like doing bonsai because they've got this demonstrable artifact of like a tree in a show that they're aiming for and they get feedback against that goal. Right. I'd say that the majority of practitioners, at least in my club, 95%, would not be that kind of practitioner. Right. And so you have to see like in your area, is there demand for that? Right. Are there enough people interested and like, does it meet the kind of size or scale that you want to be sustainable? Like, are there enough people that are willing to be a part of that and fund it to have that outcome? Right. There's, there's, you know, there's always that, that kind of challenge. The, the East Bay Club, for example, is a social club first and a bonsai club second. I'd say almost. So it's a little bit of an interesting dichotomy because it's almost the opposite. Right. Like when I joined the club, I, I almost felt like I felt this really strong push to try to make everyone practitioners. And there is a lot of interest in that. But for like this long standing club, you know, there's a lot of history with the club and there's these relationships that have been built amongst club members over this 25, 30 years of being in the club and a club that's been around for, you know, 60 years. So I think me, me like taking on a leadership role within the East Bay Club, I kind of had to temper my expectations of like what I wanted and find out like what did the membership want, right? To make it a really magical place to grow bonsai and be true to, maybe not my mission necessarily, but the mission of the club, right? For it to be A sustainable and long lived endeavor. So I don't know that that's my $0.02 initially, but I would love to get deeper into this topic with kind of what you want to build and strategize around it. [02:17:02] Speaker B: Well, thank you very much for that feedback. And I don't have a whole lot of. So I don't have a whole lot of experience with bonsai clubs. I have a little bit of experience with the Santa Maria Bonsai Club, like way back when I first got into Bonsai. And then I was in Bay Island Bonsai for a few years. And so I guess one thing that I've been thinking about a lot lately is so one of my hobbies is Jiu Jitsu. I love doing Jiu Jitsu and there are Jiu Jitsu clubs. But I think I want to structure my club, which maybe I'm not even calling it a club, more like a Jiu Jitsu gym. So if you think about if, if a person started a Jiu Jitsu club, it would be like a bunch of individuals coming together to practice Jiu Jitsu. There's not necessarily one like leader, but they, they vote on how things are going to be governed and run. Whereas with a Jiu Jitsu gym, most Jiu Jitsu gyms, you pay a membership. There's very structured instructions and lessons basically. And I think over a time, over time, what I've seen with my Jiu Jitsu gym is it started with one individual and that individual started teaching the students and developing the next crop of teachers and instructors. And then now those people start teaching. And then people come up under that second generation of teachers and then those people start teaching. And I think my goals would be really to make the biggest impact on San Luis Obispo county and Santa Barbara county as possible. And so I think it would be really cool if I started teaching workshops. We had a club though, and then I could eventually make it to where we had kind of like second generation teachers and third generation teachers. But I do want to make it very structured and formatted, kind of like Bay Island Bonsai was. But I also think you brought up a very interesting point in that like it lives and dies by the one person, which is maybe something that even if it starts with the one person, maybe you can create enough structure that it would live past you. Unfortunately, like there's, there's. I don't think there's Baelin Bonsai anymore. I'm not sure 100%, but I'm bummed about that. It was a phenomenal club. I thought it was, it was such a good club and I thought they, they did incredible things. And you know, Boone had just a really high level show for a club show all the time. And I think he, he made just a very massive impact on people, on the people that were part of that club. And so I, I look up to that, very much so. And like, I, I think that I would structure it like that now. It was maybe more of like his business was part of the club. So I guess there's just, there's a big difference between like a business club and just like your traditional club. I don't know if you have any thoughts on, on any of that. [02:20:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, the Bay Island Bonsai, like, is almost a mythical, A mythical existence from my perspective. [02:20:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:20:49] Speaker A: Like, I've just heard so like so many of the people that I respect so much came through that club, like you and Jonas and Eric. And there's all these people who. That club had such a big influence and impact on them. And they're the people that are in that, you know, that tier of people who like, they caught the bonsai itch and like, they want to do it, you know, they want to dedicate themselves to it. So I, it seems like the perfect environment to foster similar kinds of people. Right. And so I love that. And I think, and you know, that model of. I think modeling it around showing is very smart. Not because like showing is the ultimate form of bonsai, but it gives you a barometer and like a very tangible thing to plan and structure your curriculum. And it gives you a very tangible mission. Right. Which is cool. And like that mission also leads to higher quality bonsai. Right. Which is in general laudable. I mean, you do. I mean the, the kind of two models I've seen are like a, a general social club that maybe doesn't drive the best bonsai creation or like the best practitioners, but you know, plugs along and people have fun. And then I've also seen like Sensei led, you know, like the Johnny Uchidas or the, the Yamato Club and the boon with the Bay Island Bonsai. So they're built around this kind of central figure that decides the direction and provides the, the, the teaching and like the like, you know, I guess like the Sensei or the dojo type approach. Um, and I think both of those are really cool and I think, I think probably the like Sensei led type approach is better for like building practitioners or like enhancing the quality of bonsai. But I think they both have a place to Fit into the, you know, the, the zeitgeist or whatever. The. They, they both have a place to fill in the bonsai ecosystem, which is cool. Um, but yeah, I mean what you described, like that would be ideal to me. Like for me as a practitioner, that would be the kind of club that I'd want to be a part of and would want to, you know, have a space to enjoy those types of things with other people. So I love that, that goal. [02:23:13] Speaker B: Nice. Yeah. I don't know. Is. Is club the right word for a teacher led, you know, club. And then it seems like to me a good bonsai club has to have good people at the top, like figuring things out, organizing things and whether that's one or like a few. It seems like that is very, very important. There's people at the top, like putting things together, doing things the right way, really putting in some hard work is kind of my thought. [02:23:54] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you know, I think if that's an interesting one. I mean I think if you're, if you're capturing the, you know, like having a CEO or a leader figure and like if you need technical skill to, you know, accomplish your vision, then obviously that person's very important like that technical ability or that, you know, that, that leadership is important in that, in that sense. Right. But I think if you capture, if you like, a healthy club is one in which the, the goal aligns with what the people in the club want to do and then they're passionate about volunteering to make that happen or they're passionate about their relationships with each other and the, the space that they're able to build. So I think that's something you want to. Because it's just so much work to run a club and so you really need. It does take a village. And so, you know, how do you make sure that people are engaged? I think it's through like those one on one connections with people and, and then making sure that they're getting their needs met. Right. So it's almost like, you know, there's a two way street of like, yes, a sensei can provide a lot of value and can be really important in the execution of something, but the relationships amongst the members and with the sensei are just as important. And you know, you're the, what the club is, can, can kind of morph with, with what the people that make it up want to do, you know, because it's not such a large group where it's like thousands of people in a club and you know, it's manageable. Of like, oh, here's what the people that are in the club actually want to do. And like this is what, you know, this person that steps up, they're really passionate about X and they're going to add this whole nother layer of depth and richness to the club because they do that function within it. So yeah, I like that idea. And like the structure that you've kind of talked about to me is very interesting. You might want to talk to. I did an episode with John from High Desert Bonsai. The guy in Idaho who. He has that kind of model where he provides a, like a far. A bonsai farm essentially that people come and work at his garden and he kind of provides the instruction and it's like a win win, right, where he provides this space and opportunity to work on trees and that helps drive practitioners in the area and like improve everyone. And then, you know, there's the benefit of his trees move along and he gets help with the work he needs. So that kind of like community space based or like garden based approach to development might be good to connect with him. He's really open to talking. I thought his description of the community that he was fostering was really powerful. So. [02:26:52] Speaker B: Yeah, sweet. I like it. Yeah. I was wondering with you, like what keeps you going to the club? What do you enjoy? What do you find valuable within your bonsai club? And are you part of one club? [02:27:11] Speaker A: I'm just part of one club. I moved from Oakland to San Francisco. But the San Francisco meetings are one day after the Oakland meetings. And I've been in the Oakland club so long and I really enjoy the people there. And so, you know, I've kind of just stuck with it. What keeps me in the club? I mean, I, I just really enjoy the people like the people that I've met there are just so such great people. And I don't really like doing bonsai alone, to be honest, so. So I would. There's like 100% chance that I would be so much less engaged in bonsai if, you know, I didn't have, I didn't become friends with Sam and like work with him on the weekends or other people in the bonsai club. So I think, I think those, those, those relationships and you know, do I think that being in the bonsai club makes me a much better practitioner? Probably not. But indirectly I'm making relationships with people that help me, you know, form a deeper relationship and help me keep my drive for getting better at bonsai because I'm a part of this community that I Have a place within. And so that community building aspect is really important to me because I want to try to retire early and I need to have stuff to do. And I found a community that I really like and I enjoy the people and I want to spend time with them. And you know, if I'm not working anymore and I don't have coworkers to interact with and things like that, like this is the community that I've found that I really like. And so I think that's what it is about for me is like I just enjoy it and it fits into an important place in my life that I need to fill. [02:29:00] Speaker B: Love it. Love it. People are important, good people. Surrounding yourself with good people is a very important thing. I think there's some quote, like you are the average of the five people you spend the most time around. I think I agree with that. And I also think that you, you are the average of the people that you spend the most time around. Like, I, I think it like expands out and I just think people rub off on you more than we might realize and you become those people in certain ways, especially if you spend a lot of time with them. So I think it's so important to, if you find good people, stick with them. So, like to hear it, that's awesome. [02:29:44] Speaker A: 100% agree. 100% agree. [02:29:47] Speaker B: Fantastic. [02:29:47] Speaker A: Yeah. I find so much of my motivation for improvement comes because I'm inspired by the people that I look up to, you know? [02:30:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:30:00] Speaker A: So finding those people and latching on to them is, is for me at least helps drive me like actually getting better at things as opposed to just relying solely on my intrinsic motivation, you know. So I like that. [02:30:14] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. It does seem like there are some really thriving clubs in the United States, which is really exciting to hear. Like, for example, the one that I hear about a lot is the Portland Club. Portland Bonsai Society. Is that what they're called? [02:30:32] Speaker A: Yeah, they've got like 600 plus members or something like that and they're just popping. That's like the bonsai mecca in, in the US I feel like they've got a good scenario, good thing going. [02:30:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I. That, that is really cool. Like, I mean, like, does that. That seems like a really fun club. Like I would be part of that club if. I wish I had something like that going down here. But looks like they just always have really cool events and things going on. So that's very exciting to see. [02:31:09] Speaker A: A hundred percent. Yeah. I keep. I'm trying to get my, my wife to go up to Portland with me to, like, check out the area because, you know, hey, if we ended up living in the Bonsai village up there, I'd be okay with that. [02:31:21] Speaker B: Nice. [02:31:22] Speaker A: But, yeah, I would love, in my, like, ultimately, wherever I settle down, to have, like, a contingent of folks who are really serious about bonsai and not, you know, we don't have to be neighbors, but having people within, you know, 15, 20 minutes that kind of share that passion and we can kind of feed off of each other, I think would be awesome. [02:31:42] Speaker B: Yeah, most definitely. Most definitely. Awesome, man. Well, you know, before we close out here, I guess, is there anything else that you wanted to hit on or any other topics that you're interested in chatting about? [02:32:00] Speaker A: No, I think we covered a lot of really cool stuff. I really always enjoy the conversations with you, so thanks for having me on the podcast. And, yeah, I think we've got some. I've got some interesting ideas for some, like, podcast swaps and things we can do to keep. Keep it fresh as we keep building these over the next, you know, hopefully next 60 years. Well, I guess podcasts will probably be defunct by that point, but who knows? [02:32:27] Speaker B: We'll see that be interesting. They'll all be. [02:32:31] Speaker A: You'll just directly imbibe the knowledge into your brain through a chip or something like that, but. [02:32:36] Speaker B: Yep, yep, yep. Cool. Well, I'm game for those ideas. Sounds like fun. And I really appreciate you on here. I love chatting with you. I really love what you're doing. Like, you are doing such a good job. You really are. You're absolutely crushing it. Please keep it up. I just enjoy listening every week [02:32:58] Speaker A: and [02:32:59] Speaker B: really appreciate your time, man. Thank you so much, and I hope to see you around soon. We're not that far away. I'm sure we'll see each other soon and at least at the next PvE. [02:33:11] Speaker A: A hundred percent, 100% cool. Yeah. Yeah, I. Well, I mean, thank you. It really means a lot to me where, like, I see your podcast as, like, the. The gold standard, like, the goal that I'm aiming for. So mine's been 100% inspired by you, so I really appreciate it. And, you know, yeah, it's fun having, you know, I. I take things from your episodes, and those become conversations that I have in my episodes. So it's really nice having, you know, someone in the trenches with me, and I look up to your practice a lot and learn a lot from it. So thank you, Jeremiah, and looking forward to being friends for a long time. [02:33:47] Speaker B: Absolutely, man. You're too kind. Thank you so much. Have a great evening. Have a great weekend. Talk to you soon, man. [02:33:53] Speaker A: You, too. Bye, [02:34:03] Speaker B: Sam.