#40 Austin Heitzman

[00:00:00] Speaker A: To baby trees. The black pondo podcast. [00:00:18] Speaker B: The Black Ponda Podcast. Would you tell me a little bit about the drying process and what that looks like wood? [00:00:30] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I mean, so when you take the tree down, I get this all the time. And this is like red flag number one when shopping with a new wood guy is, you know, you'll get, you'll get some boards and he'll be like, oh, they're dry. The tree was down for two years, you know, five years before I cut it. But essentially when the tree comes down, the general rule of math is it takes a year for every inch of thickness for that wood to dry in the air. So if you imagine a tree that's 20, 24 inches across in five years, it's not even close. You know, it hasn't even moved the needle. I mean, it's almost as wet as it was the day it came down. So generally speaking, you take the tree down, I like to cut it in the slabs as soon as possible from that point because once it does start to dry, it shrinks at different rates, rates. Each of those concentric rings is moving at a different rate. That's why a lot of, a lot of trees you see when you're hiking or around that are in the, in the round form still are starting to crack open because that's them relieving that pressure from the shrinkage at different rates. And so you can imagine if you were to slice boards of that, they're going to also be just broken up and cracked. So when you get it flat, you know that varying drying rates will warp the board, but it's not opening up the boule or however you pronounce that at the log, the round. So getting them flat can mitigate that breakage to a large extent. And then at that point, it's essentially a year, an inch of thickness. So a two inch board, you would expect two years outdoors undercover. You want good airflow, but you don't want sun on it because the sun's going to strip the moisture from the outside faster than the inside and then again create that imbalance and drying, causing the outside to open up and crack, whereas the inside isn't moving. So you want cover over can get wet in a fashion, but you don't want standing water because then you're going to develop rot at that point. And that gets you down to kind of like a 12% point. At least in our part of the world, different, you know, different relative humidities are going to take you to different places. So if I'm drying wood in Arizona, I'll probably get down to 8, 6% relative humidity. You know, here in the Pacific Northwest, 12 is the best we can do. And at that point, taking it to a kiln can take it down that little extra bit. And you know, there's different kinds of kilns. Some activate via heat, some are dehumidifier kilns. So they're just removing moisture from the space. But generally speaking, you'll put it through that process and that'll take it down to an 8, 9%. 7, 8, 9 is your general working percentage of kiln dried wood. And then that'll fluctuate too because it continues to gain and lose moisture. Just kind of hits this equilibrium where it's not really continuing to precipitously drop and lose moisture. It's just kind of like hovering at whatever the relative humidity is. As you know, the winter comes in, it'll lose moisture. As you know, the air can't hold cold air, can't hold moisture in the same way that warm air can. And as the summer comes on, it'll gain. So you kind of get that little fluctuation. And then basically the kiln dragging process kind of bakes in this kind of bracket, like air dried wood. They like to use that for steam bending because it can still kind of ramp up, you can kind of saturate it more. Whereas kiln dried wood kind of bakes the cellular structure in a way that it really can't take in a ton more moisture. So you kind of holds it at a lower level and also kills the bugs, which can be advantageous in a lot of cases. [00:04:32] Speaker B: Nice. [00:04:32] Speaker A: So it's a process, I mean, from log drop to usable lumber, two to three years is pretty common. [00:04:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Now, does the thickness matter a lot. And, and part of, and I'm very ignorant on this subject, but when during COVID I had a lot of extra time on my hands. So I got into jita creation and, and I wasn't actually cutting them myself. I. I had somebody that would cut maple burl for me and I would finish them just for fun, just to create a few for myself. And what I found is, is a lot of them actually ended up warping. They, they were fairly thin. Does that probably mean that the wood was just not dry enough? [00:05:20] Speaker A: Is that it shouldn't, it wouldn't be dry when you cut it. No matter when you, you know, no matter how dry you get that burl, really when you cut it there, there is going to be a warpage. I mean, not Only from the moisture. But you're also, you know, imagine if, like, if you're holding your arm out and holding a kettlebell, you're having to exert tension in that arm to support that weight, and parts of the arm are pulling and parts of the arm are pushing to support the weight. You know. So imagine a tree is the same way. You know, parts are holding up branches. So there's all these kind of interior tensions that are at an equilibrium as the tree is intact and alive, as they're supporting different things. And when you cut it up, you're isolating different areas of kind of different tension and different kind of resistance. And so that causes all those, what was once in balance to kind of start to shift. And it causes those cells to kind of move as they reach a different equilibrium within their new isolated kind of board form. And then also it does cause the moisture levels to fluctuate, which is going to cause movement as well. So nearly any time, even if I were to take a kiln drive board and rip it down the middle, I generally expect a small degree of movement in that board as they kind of reorientate that kind of equilibrium that was established in that one board. So it's always a good idea when you're like, cutting up anything to cut oversize and then leave it if it's. If it's already been kiln dried and the wood's pretty much dry, you know, leaving it for a week or two weeks is usually enough for itself to re acclimate and kind of shake out all those little equilibrium issues and reach a new state of stasis. And then you can kind of flatten it at that point. If you're cutting it wet, you might have to leave it for a year or two to achieve the same kind of act. But, yeah, you're always going to experience some degree. Burls can be a little more fluid in that sense, because burl grain is just kind of a knot of grain. Sometimes it's very stable. Sometimes you get a lot of ingrain which isn't going to move much because there's not a lot of grain passing through. I mean, imagine if these are all your. Your cells and you're cutting off just a small section of them. There's a lot less of the cutting grain running through the board to move and fluctuate. Whereas if it's long and you're isolating this whole section and getting all that grain, there's more of it to move and lose moisture through. But at the same time, that Kind of irregular grain of pearls. It's a crapshoot as far as what comes out the other side. Generally, when I'm cutting cheetahs, you know, if I'm going on the thin ones, I'm probably cutting on about a half an inch to 3,8 of an inch, kind of depending on my faith in the material, and then taking them down to a quarter. So I'm almost double the size I want to finish at when I'm cutting them, just to ensure. And even then, I don't always get a jita out of it. There's been many times when I've cut at a half an inch and had to throw the piece away because I can't even get a quarter inch flat. I've out of that piece just because it moves so much. And then each species has its. Like. Oak is notorious for being extremely temperamental. Very difficult to dry, high movement, just very unsettled. Wood will move a lot. Maple is kind of in the middle. Walnut's pretty reliable, pretty easy. It doesn't move a ton of mahogany is one of the, like primo stable woods out there. That's why you see a lot of guitars made from mahogany, because it is so stable. And then back in the day before they had really plywood, when they were doing veneer work, they would build the substrate out of mahogany because of that stability. It was kind of like the most stable substrate that people could get their hands on before they had kind of manufactured wood. So, yeah, it's kind of. You have to kind of learn the temperament. Same in Bonsai. You have to learn the temperament of all these trees. Some get like to collect, some never collect. Some you can collect in the fall, some. And, you know, you have to kind of learn what each one will tolerate. And then you can kind of attack each species with that in mind. And do you know your kind of best practices where you kind of. You can't ever guarantee success, but you can kind of hedge your bets to where, you know, success is more probable than not in terms of how you approach it, you know. So. Yeah, that's. That's the short answer. Oh, man. We could probably spend the rest of the podcast, get down into the nitty gritty on that one. Yeah, And a lot of that's just hand on experience. Yeah, yeah. [00:10:35] Speaker B: It seems endlessly complex to me. There's a so much to learn, so much to know. [00:10:40] Speaker A: That's kind of the beauty of it, though. That's really what got me into woodworking, is that complexity and that diversity of behavior. And that nuance, I think if every wood was the same, I probably wouldn't be doing this. It just wouldn't have the appeal. So, you know, there's a beauty to that complexity. [00:10:58] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. [00:10:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:01] Speaker B: Great. Well, Austin, thank you so much for sitting down and chatting with me. I really appreciate it. [00:11:07] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for having me on. [00:11:09] Speaker B: Absolutely. Would you tell us a little bit about what's been going on in your life and the recent surgery that you, you had? If there's anything you don't want to talk about that's totally cool. I want to make sure that there's [00:11:22] Speaker A: a few things your, your listeners don't want to hear about. But I, I had two and my medical terminology pronunciation is not great. I'm not a doctor. 2. In granial hernias, which is where your intestines poke out of your core, your core muscles, your abs, little kind of breaches in the muscle allows your intestines to kind of pop out. They're not incredibly dangerous to have, but you do run the risk that it can get pinched and cut off the blood circulation to your intestines, which that can be critical. The doctor told me when we first diagnosed the hernia two years ago at this point that it was kind of a 15 minute window. If it got pinched, like you need to be at the emergency room 15 minutes or it's going to be real bad news. So it's not fun to live with that. And it does mean when you're lifting heavy objects, I've had to wear a hernia belt, which is essentially a jock strap that pushes your intestines back into your body, because when you lift with your diaphragm, you tend to force it out more, which can aggravate the opening and enlarge it, which you don't really want to do. So it's been two years now of wearing a hernia belt in the shop. And finally the stars aligned and I was able to get the procedure done to fix both of those guys. And what they do is they, they sew a mesh over that opening in your. Your abs. And then your body kind of grows into the mesh and kind of seals it, so it basically forms one with your body. But that process takes about three weeks. And over the course of that three weeks, I am under a lifting limit of five to ten pounds. And the risk being if I lift over that, I can bust off that mesh and it was all for nothing. So, yeah, I've kind of had to organize my spring where I'm, you know, woodworking five to ten pounds ain't going to get you much. No, no. So it's been pretty much a work halt now. I'm about a week and a half in. I've seen everything. [00:13:56] Speaker B: How did this happen? Happen? I'm. I. Before you tell me, I'm. I'm picturing you carrying some massive tree around like a massive log that you just chomped down and. Or I think you were telling me your sister is a professional wrestler. Did she get in the ring and mix it up with her or what happened? How'd this happen? [00:14:21] Speaker A: No, I mean, it's nothing that like, you wish it was that spectacular. I mean, I left having stuff every day. I mean, you could do it on £80, you know, get a little, you know, kind of health classy about it, I guess. Men are more susceptible to hernias than women because during the infant period, we have a natural opening in our abdominal lining that our testicles drop through that then reseals afterwards. But because it's already that opening, even though it reseals, it's just easier for it to open up again and then it's kind of genetic. My dad had one, my grandpa had one, so I was already predisposed to have it. You know, before I ever lifted anything in my life, if I had to point the finger, I, I think I was doing a door for Ryan Neal that involved a large quarter inch steel panel in it. So it was, it was stupid heavy. I mean, it was a solid core slab door with, I mean, you know, probably a hundred pounds, maybe a little over. And I think over the process of flipping it and manipulating it, building it, I noticed a change one day. If I didn't make that door, it would have probably been something else, maybe one of your stands, who knows? You know, any number of slabs I've lifted over the years. So it's just, it happens. I was on a walk this morning and I ran to my neighbor. He's going in for his hernia surgery next week. You know, it's kind of like, you know, you too. And able to give him a little bit of the lay of the land, you know, over social media. You'd be surprised. A lot of, you know, people have commented they've had three hernias over their, you know, the course of their, their lives. And it's, it's not, it's not an uncommon. In fact, actually it is the most common surgery in America by the numbers. So, you know, there's a lot of us out there. You know, it's, it's not the biggest deal. It does decimate your core afterwards. My wife has been really enjoying it because she's been telling me now I know what it feels like to have childbirth. You know, that little after effect when there's just. The core is just blown out and gone. After pregnancy, it's kind of that process. The first couple of days you're using your forearms to do everything, you know, to. To move about. And that was very uncomfortable. And then there can be a quite a bit of bruising and swollen afterwards, which has kind of been what's been plaguing me lately. So it hasn't been a cakewalk. It's like a vacation of sorts. But then at the same time, I haven't been outside at all hardly. I've been confined to the couch with my feet up, which is not what I consider a vacation. [00:17:28] Speaker B: Sounds like the worst kind of vacation to me. [00:17:31] Speaker A: It kind of is. It's driving me nuts. The good news is I have a few fossil concretions that I weighed prior to the surgery that all kind of came in two, three pounds. And so I've been able to kind of noodle at those a little bit after the first probably four or five days when I was able to get myself to the garage and move about. But even that 30 minutes of sitting in a chair upright really starts to get sore. So I haven't even been that productive in that respect. Week and a half in, things are starting to come down a little bit. I'm starting to hit the real danger zone where you're feeling better, completely restless and ready to just go do. And this is where you kill it. Kill it. Where you blow it out for sure. [00:18:22] Speaker B: You got. You got to be careful. You gotta. [00:18:24] Speaker A: I gotta left till I know. So I gotta be real good. I've got a crunch job that's gotta be done June 1st after this. So I gotta come back with a vengeance. So any delay in the healing and I'm gonna really give myself some trouble later. So I'm being very good, but that's not. Not something I'm good at. [00:18:52] Speaker B: Can you tell me anything about the crunch job or is this held tight? [00:18:59] Speaker A: I don't think it's anything too secretive. It's. It's kind. It's actually, I'm very excited about it. I was worried I was going to lose the job because of the time frame. The client initially wanted it done mid April and the surgery was already booked. And I was like, look, it can't happen. You know, he had reached out, it would. It was Like a three week window. And I'm like, I just can't do it in three weeks. But it's someone who owns a Frank Lloyd Wright house in the Chicago area. And there was initially, I know, it just gets better. And there was initially a planter in an island in kind of the main room. And he wants to modify it where he wants to cover the planter and put in a kind of permanent shohin display in space with the planter in the Sprank Lord Wright house. So we're making a quasi traditional shohin display that kind of reflects the architecture of the Frank Lloyd Wright house to kind of essentially integrate with the space as if it was designed to go there instead of the planner kind of the lab redux. I couldn't believe it when I got the email. But yeah, really sweet job. [00:20:18] Speaker B: So that is so cool. [00:20:20] Speaker A: Like, you know, I really would hate to see a timeline kill this. You know, this is, you know, something I would really enjoy to do. And I was like, is there any way we can come up with a compromise where we can make this happen? And so we were able to bump the due date out to June 1st. And I was like, eh, it's tight but feasible. So I gave a little, he gave a little, and hopefully we'll get it done. We're going to do it in two parts. So it's going to have the Shohin Bach stand and then with an accompanying kind of, you know, small stand to go with that, to give it a little asymmetry. It's an eight foot long space where the planter was. So just a single box stand felt very isolated in that space. You know, it just really didn't fill it. So having the extra accompanying stand kind of gives it a little more room to fill up the space. So I was able to get that stand done before I went into the surgery. So I really, I can at least focus when I get out of this and get the final piece done without having to juggle two at the same time. [00:21:34] Speaker B: That is so cool. [00:21:36] Speaker A: It's a cool project. And you know, designing it to match the house has been a lot of fun, employing a few tricks and kind of altering the design slightly from what, you know, the house features. But the island has this kind of like slatted kind of look to it. It has like, you know, these, these slats of wood. But when you translate that into a bonsai scale, you don't get the same shadow effect that you get on a, you know, architectural scale. So we were going to use some oxidation where we Blacken the wood in the recessed areas to kind of force those shadows. Kind of like in model making, where you paint the shadows because it's not big enough to actually create them on. So it's going to have this kind of black and mahogany banding that's going to kind of echo the kind of shadow of the mahogany island that it's on. So pretty cool little project there. Looking forward to getting back to it. [00:22:39] Speaker B: Yeah, can't wait to see that. So is the stand made out of mahogany and then is a Frank Lloyd. What kind of wood is it in a Frank Lloyd Wright home? [00:22:53] Speaker A: Traditionally mahogany in this home, I think Frank Lloyd Wright, you know, different. Depending on the home, the stands actually going to be done. In sapele, there's a builder that's making a cover to cover the planter and they're going to be doing the finishing work. So it all matches. So it was important to use a similar wood species as they were using. That way their finishing stains and dyes would translate one to one into my work. The house is probably Honduran mahogany. That would be more typical of the time period and it's kind of the more prized mahogany's. If I had my druthers, I would have done the piece in Honduran mahogany. It does darken with sun exposure and time. So anything new I would make out of ma Honduran would be a tad bit lighter, but I think it would develop a patina similar to the home in time. And I would, you know, my preference is to take the slow game and, you know, have it match in 15 years versus match immediately. But I do understand the. The desire and need to get it there in a quicker pace. So, you know, I have no problem with the sapili other than it's a kind of shitty wood to work. It's very splintery and so it's just been peppering my hand with splinters. It's kind of a dry, brittle wood and chips out very easily. So milling the boards, I was just constantly pulling shards out of my hands. It's like woodworking with glass or something. So that was not the funnest mahogany works a lot more, you know, smoothly and is a lot more well behaved in terms of a woodworking medium. But sapele is still a nice, pretty wood. So, yeah, it'll look hopefully pretty damn good when it's all said and done with. [00:24:58] Speaker B: Ah, that's so cool. I am so pumped for you and I would love. I can't wait to see pictures, but I feel like that's the kind of thing that if you could see it in person it would just [00:25:12] Speaker A: obviously have a higher degree of presence. Especially since it's going to kind of be like a space divider, you know, like it's going to kind of partition two spaces but then have that kind of perforated see through feel. So almost a screen but screen with bonsai rather than the one sided traditional shohin view. You're going to get a double sided take on this thing. But I do can't wait to see the install shots. That's going to be really awesome to see when it's dead and done with. [00:25:45] Speaker B: So exciting. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. Another project I'm really excited about is the stand that you are making for [00:25:56] Speaker A: me which is essentially done. The finish could probably use a spit shine and a cleanup and the final kind of buffing layer. That was another thing I was frantically trying to get done before the surgery. It got close but it was just kind of one of those things that it was just. It just didn't quite make the end. So yeah, I mean shortly after I'm back up and running that's going to be ready to get to you which will be awesome. And hopefully fuel costs will come down between now and then anyway and save some money on that because the fuel surcharges can make shipping less fun. But that walnut that thing's made out of is shit. One hell of a walnut. That stuff's pretty damn nice. [00:26:47] Speaker B: I feel like you. When you were first telling me about the walnut, you. You definitely didn't explain how nice it was. I feel like you almost kind of like said that it underplay it. You did. I think you did. And then I saw pictures of it and I was like wow, that is. That far exceeded my expectations. So I appreciate that under promise and [00:27:13] Speaker A: over deliver that's always a. A decent way to go. I had my suspicion. I mean when you see. When you. You. To go back to our early conversation about the drying of the wood. When the wood dries it get over those three years it. It gets a patina and really fogs out any real sense of what the grain. And there's clues in that that you learn over the years and you can kind of understand a little bit what's underneath that. But it's kind of like looking into an ocean above the waves. It's like you know, if you know enough stuff you can kind of know what's down there. But until you get in the glass bottom boat, you don't really see what you're looking at. And there were hints of figure in that wood that I saw was there. So that was exciting hints of color variation that I could see, you know, so that was certainly an optimistic thing. But once the. The planer hit that and got it smoothed out, all of that just kind of like exploded. And you know, it's. It's. It's a 9 out of 10 color. It's an 8 out of 9 figure. It's. It's up there. It is some pretty nice stuff. And just clean and straight. It's. It's pretty damn nice wall. That. That's high up there on my esteem. So, yeah, that's going to be a real looker. And then the manzanita flash. I'm glad you decided that that was a good idea because I think that'll really. That just really takes it. And there's already the kind of the red in the walnut and the color variation, so I think those two just are going to play with each other so well. Very excited to see the tree on that. That's going to be a real pretty thing. [00:28:55] Speaker B: Me too. Me too. I can't wait. [00:28:58] Speaker A: A lot of shows coming up, which is going to be very exciting. So, you know, definitely something to look forward to in the bonsai world. It's going to be a busy 27. [00:29:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So are you available for custom orders still and kind of like, let's say, I assume probably PBE is going to be a big driver in producing new works for you. Are you still taking orders? [00:29:27] Speaker A: I'm still taking orders, but that timeline is quickly diminishing. I would say at this point, I'm pretty much booked out July, you know, and I'm in conversations with a few people for other things, so there's potential for that to go further. The other day I did the math and, you know, optimistically, I would say probably there's room for eight stands between now and the pbe. And that is kind of looking at things right now. If somebody decides they want a table between now and then, that number drops to maybe four. So I know the PBE is definitely going to be notifying people a little bit on the late side as far as acceptance goes. But I would definitely say that, you know, if your tree is good enough and you feel good enough about your tree to enter it into the show, maybe it's a good idea to already start to develop and lock down that display because even if it isn't accepted into the show, it'll be accepted into the next show or the next show. I mean, it's not like this is going to be the last thing that tree will see. And you know, if it's at the caliber where you're happy to put it forward as a contestant, I think maybe it deserves to kind of finalize and round out the display because once we get to that point, I think I figured. Do you know when the acceptances are coming out for the pbe? When are they releasing those? I feel like it was July or August. They're kind of late in the game. The show's February and I heard they're [00:31:08] Speaker B: even pushing it back further this year. And I, I actually, I, I don't know all the updates, but last time I checked, I spoke with Jonas very briefly and he was telling me that they're, they were considering pushing it back further. I don't know if that actually happened or not. I thought it was like, and I don't want to say the wrong dates for anyone listening out there, but I thought he said they were going to do it in like October or something, like very close. [00:31:35] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what happened last year with the national. Bill, I think did it six, eight weeks before the show and at that point there's scarcely time for one or two stands, if any. I had to say no to people before the national because it was just too late. And then hence, you know why, you know, I'm saying this because I, I don't love saying no to people, but six weeks just isn't enough. Generally speaking. I'm a 12 week lead time. Sometimes I can get it done a little faster if it needs to get done a little faster. But when you throw volume at that, you can't do a rush order on 8 stance. It's not going to happen. So one or two people maybe squeak in if they're lucky, but very much you're kind of out of luck at that point. So if you're really looking for something exceptional to display your tree on, now is the time to really start that conversation. And like I said, if it's good enough for the show to enter, it's going to be in a show one day, whether it gets in or not. [00:32:52] Speaker B: Um, a hundred percent. Yeah. No, absolutely. I, I. Am anyone out there listening? If you are thinking about entering into the PBE or any other show and you, you feel pretty good about your chances of getting in, you need to contact Austin right away. Don't rush him. You don't want to give him less time and come up with a worse result. You know, rushing things. [00:33:19] Speaker A: Yeah, it comes down to where it's just I say, I'm sorry, I can't, you know, and I don't know what you do. Then you scramble and go find something at the club and it doesn't fit. Right. And, you know, it's a disappointing display at the end of the. Or, you know, I don't know, it's not what you want it to be, you know, it may come out fine, I don't know. But yeah, it won't be the vision that maybe you had in mind. But, you know, any tree good enough for the PBE is going to be good enough for the next. Going to be good enough for the National. There's the Central Bonsai Expo again this year too. We're in 27, so, I mean, shows are abounding, so they'll be the day for sure. And honestly, I think the display is as much for you as it is for the show. So, you know, if you want to see your tree at its best, invest in it for yourself. [00:34:12] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:34:13] Speaker A: Sorry, I interrupted you there. [00:34:15] Speaker B: No, no, no, no. Where was I going with that? Yeah, I guess I am wondering what does it look like? What does the process usually look like? If someone wants to work with you, like, how do you recommend they reach out and should they have. Do they need to have a design in their mind finalized to work with you, or kind of what does that process look like? Typically? I know what it's looked like for me. I'm just curious with other people. [00:34:46] Speaker A: I mean, there's a million and one ways we can address it. You don't have to have a finalized design. I'm happy to help you with the design. All I think you really need to come with is kind of an idea of it. If you want to lead the design, that's great, but you will need a finalized design at that point or some idea of a design. If you're comfortable passing that on to me, I am happy to design that for you. But generally speaking, just an email reaching out. I'm kind of initiating that contact. You can contact me through my website, austinheitsmanfurniture.com send me an email through there. Generally speaking, I'm going to want to see a picture of the tree. Even if you have an idea of the design, I'm kind of going to want to see a picture of the tree because it will inform the minutiae of the decisions that I'm going to have to make as I construct a stand. And even if I'm just crafting something that you've delineated, I'm still going to have to make decisions. And seeing the tree is really going to help inform those. But then general dimensions are always handy too. Width, depth, height of pot, because the pot is going to kind of just determine what that central picture window entails. And then height and width of the crown of the tree, the overall height and width, which is going to kind of delineate where the outside of the stand falls. I mean, those are your two kind of stand parameters. You know, outside line of the stand, picture window of the stand. And so the pot and the crown dimensions are really going to inform where those sit. If it's a heavy tree and we're pursuing a unconventional cantilever or imbalanced design, a general weight at that point sometimes can be handy. Your tree, for instance, is quite the bruiser. And so even though we weren't really pushing the balance or pushing the kind of engineering of the stand in any real way, what was it? 270 pounds, right? Am I correct? That kind of weight? [00:36:53] Speaker B: 77 without being watered. [00:36:56] Speaker A: So exactly. That kind of weight really needs, you know, that needs that, that informs decisions. You know, any stand that you make for a 270 pound thing, that, that does change the game a little bit. I had to get two people to stand on your stand to check it out and make sure that everything was good on the construction side and it lasts. Oh yeah, no problem. Vinnie Grown. Good news about walnut is it's strong. But yeah, generally speaking, I'll stand on the stand to check for weight. It's been the first time ever for a bonsai that I've had to have help because I'm not big enough to get that weight check. But yeah, once you reach out with that and if you have a general idea of where you want that budget to fall, that's good to know. I know everybody wants a deal, but these are custom made pieces, These aren't resold products. So the whole idea of a deal doesn't really fit into it. What you're paying for is my time and more money. More time, less money, less time. So there's no real deal in that. But when it comes down to designing and conceptualizing a stand idea, it just helps me focus and save time on the front end. So I'm not designing, you know, an expensive stand for someone who just really doesn't want to put that kind of investment into it, you know, or likewise designing a simple stand for someone who wants something more complex, but just kind of understanding where you want to fall. And then we can kind of tailor the design to fit that budget. I'm not opposed to working on any level. You know, a lot of people get really afraid that it's just going to be cost prohibitive. But it's really kind of designed to suit and suit the needs of both the tree, the client, and the budget. And so kind of understanding. And it doesn't have to be a number. This is where it has to be, but a general range of where you kind of tap out at. It's good to know. So I can kind of work to tailor to that. But outside of that, that's enough to get things moving. And then from that point, a lot of times, I like to have a phone conversation, so kind of just get a sense of the other party, their design, their feelings. Even if I'm coming up with the design, it's for someone else, and everyone else has their aesthetic preferences. So it's good to kind of know where they're coming from and kind of get a feeling of just the whole situation. And then from there, we'll develop some sketches. And kind of once we have sketches, then we can start putting a price tag on things because we know what actually is involved at that stage of the game. And once the design looks good and the price looks good, 50% deposit gets the ball rolling solid. 12 weeks later, you have a stand to put a tree on. So, you know, it's definitely not fast food, but this is something, you know, that you hope to live and grow with. So, you know, I guess speed isn't really the goal here. [00:40:18] Speaker B: And you'll probably keep forever. Yeah, yeah. [00:40:22] Speaker A: I mean, it'll last forever. You know, it's up to you in the end whether or not you want to commit to it forever. But I would hope so. If not you, hopefully someone else, you know, as it kind of goes through the life of the tree. And then it doesn't necessarily have to be this case for one stand, one tree either. I think that's another common misconception, is that every stand's built for one tree only, and that's it. A lot of times, you know, you may have a certain tree you're entering in the show, but if budgetarily, you kind of want to have something that's a little more flexible and you can display other trees on, you know, I can kind of ask, like, well, what. What other trees in your garden kind of fit into that similar size range? And we can kind of size the stand as a more generalist, that kind of fits five trees. Well, you know, and it may not be An Italian boot for every one of them, but will work, you know, and function, you know, for a diverse array of trees. And so you can kind of get a little more mileage out it in terms of display and display multiple trees on the same piece. So that's certainly something definitely to consider. [00:41:34] Speaker B: Fantastic. Well, I really enjoyed and I want to thank you for just the collaborative process that we had together. I feel like, you know, I came with some ideas, I was kind of all over the place. You helped me rein it in a little bit. You shared some of your own ideas. We both thought about it for a while, we made small adjustments, and then we figured out something in the end that I think we're both very happy with. And I can say I'm beyond excited and happy with the final product. From what I've seen so far, the pictures look awesome, but they always look even better in person, so I think they do. [00:42:14] Speaker A: What? [00:42:15] Speaker B: Yeah, it does look better. [00:42:17] Speaker A: Wood likes light, and having dynamic light on wood is always going to look better than a static photo. So when you really get the depth of it. So, yeah, it's pretty sweet in person, but, yeah, no, thanks. Yeah, it's a great process to go through. I enjoy it and it's a fun game to play and I enjoy working with people on that level and trying to kind of collaborate to come up with something that satisfies, you know, basically three parties, you know, me, the client and the tree, to get it to work for everyone. [00:42:51] Speaker B: That's fantastic. When did you start doing the green felt cloths? The coverings for the tables? I really like those. And they. The ones that I have currently, or the one that I have currently, it's just been really nice to keep dust off the tables and I think it looks really nice. How'd that start? [00:43:12] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it kind of comes out of the whole, you know, the Kiribako Japanese box scenario, you know, and the Jeet Does. Making the felt pouches for the Jeet does is just kind of a convenient storage. I mean, the nature of Bonsai display is these stands are stored for long periods, and so they kind of solves that convenient issue of, you know, how do I protect them over time. It also presents a nice kind of packaging, branding opportunity as well, and just kind of a nice final touch to the product. So I think the JITA is largely, you know, kind of started that process and then it kind of morphed into to working onto the stands as well. And it also allows me to kind of include that as just kind of a base Fare that the boxes. Because of the material and time investment I have to charge extra to include those. But the felt cover accomplishes the same task, you know, by and large and does so, you know, at a very reasonable and inclusive kind of rate. I will say the green felt has been controversial. Some love it, some don't. I thought it was a cool color. On my next roll of fabric I went something a little more I guess, conservative, not quite that green. I like green. I like more intense greens, you know, so to say. So I thought that one was pretty cool. The next roll I think I got a gray. So sorry for those who like cream, it may come back again but you know, a little bit of pushback. It's just kind of best to just not push it too hard because you risk if you upset one person, it just doesn't work. So yeah, you know, it phased out the green, but yeah, thanks. I'm glad that they, that they work. It's, it's just, yeah. A nice way of kind of protecting the stand over the long haul. Transporting the shows, storing in the closet, whatever. So form and function. [00:45:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Any other tips in regards to storing and keeping the stand in good condition just over the, over the life of the stand? [00:45:54] Speaker A: I mean, you know, obviously, you know, covering protecting is important. I think humidity, moisture control is very handy. Better to store in a climate controlled facility rather than an outbuilding or shed if at all possible. If you're storing outdoors in a shed, an enclosed shed is going to be better than an open air shed. Basically every layer of insulation you can give yourself from the outdoor environment. Obviously these things generally speak I do my out make outdoor stands but by and large the indoor stands, you know, you don't want them out in the full elements. Sun, rain, that's very detrimental to wood and then also just that kind of humidity fluctuation is going to cause it to move more. So the finish other than making it look beautiful. One of the benefits of finish is it flatlines that humidity fluctuation. It acts as an inhibitor slowing down the absorption and emission of moisture. And so you go from you know, graph doing this of moisture to something a little more level and that just stresses joints less, it causes gaps to move less and it just, you know, benefits the life of the piece. So yeah, if you're, you know, like I have, my garage is not climate controlled but it's enclosed and it's insulated. So you know, my house would be number one, my garage would be number two and then I have a shed that has a peaked Roof with open sides. And I would say that would be, you know, the least beneficial, least good option just because it's getting the full brunt of the seasonal change in humidity. And then just avoid harsh cleaning chemicals and harsh cleaning pads. Don't use a scouring pad to clean it. A clean, soft rag with a mild soap is all you really need as far as cleaning it and. And that all those abrasives will reduce the finish over time and scratch it. [00:48:21] Speaker B: What kind of soap? [00:48:23] Speaker A: Just any. Just a mild soap, hand washing soap. Just, you know, something that's just very gentle. You don't need anything crazy. Okay. You know, if it's good enough for your skin, it's good enough for the wood. And, you know, these things aren't going to be getting caked on. [00:48:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:44] Speaker A: Junk, you know, I would say, you know, a dial, you know, or equivalents is enough to cut. You know, maybe you get some pine SAP on it. That would be kind of what I would imagine to be the worst you would encounter. And that should cut through that. Okay. You know, and avoid standing water for extended periods if at all possible. Again, the finish is there to really kind of do a lot of that lifting for you. But a puddle of water for 24 hours is not ideal, you know. [00:49:18] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:49:19] Speaker A: I know during. I know during shows and watering you can get drippage on the stands and, you know, if it happens, it happens. But, you know, whatever we can do to minimize the water is always ideal. And then a simple furniture paste wax, if it gets scratched, you know, eventually it can be refinished and the luster can come back. But a furniture paste wax can go a long way to kind of blending scratches and reducing, you know, the wear and tear of time and use and make those just a little less obvious. So you. Before you have to get to that point of a complete refinish. Great, Great. [00:50:06] Speaker B: Yeah. I always try and put felt pads on the bottom of my bonsai pots. If I put them onto bonsai tables, I think that definitely helps. But that's a hot tip. Yeah, you still can scratch them up, but yeah, it does help. [00:50:23] Speaker A: It's heavy. They get adjusted. And you can be careful. And I say this a million times, but the photographer maybe less so you're not always going to be present. And the bottom of pots, that's ceramic, it's sandpaper. And that I would say 99% of damage to stands is the bottom of the pot from one degree of a shift. I mean, that is the number one stand damage point right there. So anything you can do to mitigate that is going to really help you. And yeah, I felt it does, you know, pop the pot up a little bit. But a lot of the times the weight of it will compress that felt enough where it's not terribly noticeable. Using dark felt pads, you know, cut strategically inset, you know, as much as possible can just turn it into a shadow line and it'll be completely unnoticeable. But that can really help out because it's, it's a lot of times in photography, that final adjustment at the end, once it's placed and you're, oh, I wish it was just a little shift. That's when it gets you. And when it goes to photography, those are the two points I would say most of the damage hits. [00:51:42] Speaker B: Gotcha. Gotcha. Austin, do you mind if we take a two minute restroom break really quick? [00:51:49] Speaker A: Yeah, go for it. I'll get some more water. [00:51:50] Speaker B: Okay. I'll be super quick. All right. [00:51:54] Speaker A: Yeah, [00:51:58] Speaker B: cool. So, you know, I wanted to ask you a bit if it's okay with you about finishes and jointery, if that's okay. But I want to make sure that I am not making you divulge any proprietary information. [00:52:21] Speaker A: I don't have anything information. People have been woodworking since before the Egyptians. It's all been done. To me, it's a signature, you know, like, you can't forge a signature. I can copy it, but it's not going to be the same thing. I have no secrets. Shoot. [00:52:43] Speaker B: That makes sense. I think Peter T. Can wire up a tree and I can watch and watch exactly, you know, every little movement that he makes, but I can't do it exactly like him, so. [00:52:56] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:52:57] Speaker B: I get it. [00:52:57] Speaker A: You know, it's just. Yeah. You know, wire is not his secret. It's just how he uses it, you know? [00:53:02] Speaker B: Absolutely. Makes sense. Cool. Well, I guess with that said, can you talk to me about finishes? I feel like I love your finishes. I appreciate them so much and I don't know, I mean, I'm not great. I don't have an extensive woodworking background. I don't know a ton about finishing wood pieces or anything like that. However, I feel like they just look very natural in terms of you can really still appreciate the beauty of the wood itself. When I look at your finishes, like, they're not like too in your face or flashy. They just look very, very nice. They go well. They complement the bonsai trees and they really just enhance the wood. I don't know how to. To describe it other than that, but I. I'm a massive fan of the way that you finish. [00:53:57] Speaker A: Me. I mean, yeah, finishing's tough, you know, I mean, and you can really screw a piece on the, on the finishing side you can and be a woodworking genius. But if the finish doesn't deliver, the piece doesn't for me. And part of this is kind of niche specific because of the bonsai. I like to go oil on the finishes. You know, you basically have kind of two directions. You can go, you can go poly or you can go oil. The big difference on those is the poly is just basically a flat poly plastic film that sits on top of the wood. Whereas an oil is kind of a blended layer. It's kind of in the top layer of the wood. And you know, I do it to create a film. So in the end there is a small film there, but it's, it's kind of merged with the wood. The advantage of the oil is in a poly situation, if you scratch it to refinish it, if you were to spray over it again, that scratch is going to leave, they call it sight lines. You can see where that scratch was. It leaves kind of a shadow of itself. And so the only way to refinish a piece coated in a polyfinish is to completely remove every bit of that plastic film before respraying it again. Which is fine and easy on something flat and simple, but anything with complex nuance and dimension, it's. It's a labor intensive pain in the butt with harsh chemicals. It's not an easy process. And you know, in the bonsai realm where we are kind of staring down scratches, you know, we're essentially daring, you know, things to scratch our pieces here. I mean, pots are what you're putting on it. Pots. Two, One. I mean, it's just like, you know, we were talking with the felt. That's 99% of the damage. And so I kind of want to set it up for an ease of repair so that when and if it does get scratched, it's not this total kind of system that you have to redo. So the oil finishes, they will. Each layer will kind of merge with the next so you can spot refinishing oil and not have to redo the whole thing. [00:56:24] Speaker B: So if you did get a scratch on top, would it be better to use the exact type of oil that you use compared to some like that? That would be ideal. [00:56:35] Speaker A: It's good to consider because a lot of times because they are merging, if you're mixing them, they can sometimes not cooperate with each other, which can lead to issues. Also, different finishes have different tints. And so if you get that wrong, you know, that can alter the final look. I use two different kinds of oils because I don't get what I want out of either one. And I found that the two will work with each other just fine. And I can kind of get the best of both of their worlds by combining them I used to use exclusively. The first Waterlox is the name brand, and it's a fairly dark tinted, um, it's advertised as a resin impregnated tung oil. I guess to give a little back history. Tung oil and shellac are kind of your ancient finish categories. Simple to apply, act like an oil. They're very nice finishes. The only problem is they offer zero water protection. And so not really well suited in a bonsai world. Not really well suited in a. In your typical household. Most people want a little more protection out of their finish. You know, in 1750, it's what they had. It worked just fine. It's beautiful. If you want to use coasters, it'll work today, but that's not a realistic expectation in the bonsai world. And so the waterlocks, they impregnated resin into the tung oil, so it builds up a layer of protection over the tung oil, giving it that kind of little bit extra. Originally developed as a floor finish, it's been around since 1909. Real durable stuff. The only downside of it is it dries gloss and there's no way around that. It'll mellow in time and kind of come down to a satin, but that's more five, ten year time. So gloss finish. I'm just, I'm not saying a wide acceptance of that in the market these days. People want a matte to satin and they want it now that in 10 years. So with the waterlocks, it just kind of got to this point where it's just. It really wasn't meeting expectations of what people were wanting. And there really isn't a good way of knocking it down to a lower luster. But that dark pigmentation in the finish really gives the wood a nice depth. It. It stains it a little bit, but not in like a wood stain kind of way. It just kind of basically takes the tones that are there and just punches them up that little bit extra. And I really like getting that little extra punch to it. So definitely I still use that as my kind of undercoat to get that dark color and get that depth protection. And then I use OSMO on top of that, which is a Hard wax oil, which is pretty new technology in terms of finishing. Again, developed as a floor finish. So high durability on that one and that can be done as a matte. So we're getting the matte tone out of the osmo. So laying that on top of the waterlocks, we're getting the color and then getting the mat from the osmo. The OSMO itself isn't pigmented, clear as a bell, so it doesn't give quite the same luster to the wood that the waterlogs lend. So on its own it doesn't. The wood just doesn't feel as alive, which is why I still continue to start with the other one as well. So generally speaking, when I'm refinishing, I'm refinishing with just the osmo. If the damage is extensive, I might go in with the water locks. But overlaying the water locks on top of the OSMO doesn't totally work. OSMO being kind of more wax based, it wants to resist moisture, so it acts as a heavy repellent for whatever goes on top of, including additional finish. So generally speaking, once that OSMO layer is on, that's the only thing that's gonna go on top of it from there. So that's my general formula. [01:01:11] Speaker B: That is so cool. So innovative of you to blend the two together. Have you been blending the two for a long time or initially? You said you were using the first one, right? [01:01:24] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it's been a spell. I've been blending them at least seven, eight, maybe a decade. I don't know exactly when I started putting the two together. [01:01:34] Speaker B: Awesome. [01:01:34] Speaker A: But it's been a good while of putting the two together. Okay. Osmo's a little less finicky too, which is also nice for my end. It's just a little easier to apply. It does take longer to dry though, which is the only downside. It's like a week between coats, which really slows down the process, which is another reason to get the stand orders in to just beat that drum because there's just no way to fast track that process. I can't make the OSMO cure faster. It's a partially chemical reaction. And so by putting it in a warmer room, it's not going to change it. It's still going to be a slow creep to getting hard. [01:02:17] Speaker B: And how many coats, how many coats do you generally apply? [01:02:21] Speaker A: Generally five. [01:02:24] Speaker B: Oh. So okay, two. [01:02:25] Speaker A: Two waterlocks and then three of the osmo. Two of the OSMO a little bit thicker and then the final. What I would consider to be a buffer coat that goes on super dry. I mean, to the point where, you know, taking the lid of the osmo can, so just what's collected on the underside of the lid when you shake a can, and then just basically quickly tapping a rag in that and that little bit. A bit. I would cover, you know, a couple square feet of material with that. So a very skim coat. But it does kind of unify everything, just that little bit extra, treating it more as a wax than anything else, like a furniture wax, where you apply it very minimally and it just kind of unifies everything in a very nice way. So basically, you know, four coats of substance and one coat of air. Kind of like the Bob Ross versus, you know, two bristles in air kind of situation. [01:03:31] Speaker B: Awesome. For that, can I make a request, Austin? [01:03:36] Speaker A: Sure. [01:03:41] Speaker B: So one thing that I absolutely love that you do is the. I don't know if this is the correct term because I think ASMR is more of a audio thing. However, from a visual perspective, when you post the videos of you applying the first coat onto like some nice walnut or something like that, can you please just do that for every single. Every single first coat? Can you make a video and post it? Because I know there's something about, like seeing that. I love it. [01:04:10] Speaker A: That's the glass bottom boat. It's the magic. I mean, you kind of see what the wood's going to do before that first coat. But the first coat, it really pops. I'll try. I do realize that is a moment. The problem in this day and age where, you know, media face is, is a big part of, you know, what everybody does. It's remembering in the course of your workday to kind of document those moments. You know, you get really wrapped up and getting things done and getting the next thing done and doing the next thing for sure. And then it's like, oh, oh, shit, I forgot to put the camera on this one. I'll definitely do more of that. I'll try and do more. It's always. I mean, it's hard to know with the social media presence what anybody. Because you're just throwing it out into this void. And there's often not really much kind of feedback on what matters or if anybody's even listening at all. So it's always good to hear kind of what people are into. So no problem with that. [01:05:20] Speaker B: For whatever reason. It's just so satisfying to see that first coat on. And so I never get sick of it. So please. [01:05:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I'm in the same boat. I see it all the time. And every time it still gets me. The really fun ones is when I'm doing jitas and I've got 37 different kinds of wood that are getting that first coat at the same time. And I've done a couple videos of those where it's just like, you know, let's do it with cherry, let's do it with walnut, let's do it with manzanita. How about this one now? And it's just like you're getting that over and over and over again in different ways. Those are pretty fun. But yeah, I'll do a better job. At least I'll try. I've been a little dormant, I guess would be the nice way of putting on the social lately, you know, goes. And it comes as far as your own relationship with it. [01:06:14] Speaker B: That's how I'm with it too. [01:06:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And then also in the lead up to the surgery and everything, it was hyper focused on just getting the done and you know, I had a checklist and I really had to check it everything off of that. And so a lot of the periphery just got totally dropped and so. And that I'm just. Yeah, I'm not the best media guy, you know, but yeah, noted. [01:06:48] Speaker B: Awesome. I appreciate it. Cool. So would you talk to me a little bit about joinery? I know that there are probably infinitely an infinite amount of different ways that you could approach combining different pieces of wood. Can you talk to me a little bit about your philosophy there? [01:07:10] Speaker A: I mean, the main thing of joinery is when joining two pieces of wood, generally we're using glue. You know, the Japanese, they didn't use glue and had heavily complex interlocking joints that allowed that modern time and modern expenses don't allow for that kind of labor. So the real key component. [01:07:36] Speaker B: So sorry to interrupt your thought there, but with old Japanese bonsai tables or Chinese bonsai tables or the tables that we see in the kogufu, do you think that there is glue involved in those tables? I know a lot of them are quite ancient, but. Okay. [01:07:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I would assume so. I think most of the glue list was temple joinery. [01:07:59] Speaker B: Makes sense. [01:08:01] Speaker A: And I'm not a hundred percent on my facts here. I think part of it might have been earthquake resistance giving it that kind of flexibility. I don't think it was an access issue. I. I don't think it was like the Japanese didn't have glue and so they didn't use it. I might be wrong, but I don't think that was the, the reason behind that process. But my guess would be, especially when you get it down to that scale, it's the interlocking thing doesn't work on that fine of a scale. There's just not the room to do that without glue anymore. When you have giant beams, you can use pegs and stuff to do that, but when you start to get that size down, it doesn't really translate in the same way. [01:08:52] Speaker B: That makes sense. [01:08:53] Speaker A: So I would say in that case, you know, those are all glued. And then the glue presents this functional dilemma is, you know, if you imagine wood as a bundle of straws, when I put glue on the side of those straws, it sits there and can join with another bundle of side straws. But when I put glue on the end of those straws, it sucks up all the straws, which starves that connection of glue. Because all that glue is getting pulled into the grain, basically. And so when I'm joining ingrain to long grain or in grain to end grain, glue is not going to work. Glue's not going to make a secure joint with that. And so you need some way of getting long grain next to long grain. That is the. Basically, that's the mathematical problem in all wood joinery is how do I get long grain to touch long grain in these two joints. And so a lot of times that's simply putting a spline between the two. So if I have a spline that goes into this piece, you know, is buried into it, the long grain of the spline touches the long grain inside, and then it's conversely buried into the other piece, and the long grain of the spline touches the long grain of that one, which gives me a secure glue joint. You know, a miter joint, which we see a lot in bonsai stands, is better than an end grain situation. But we're still not getting that kind of long grain secure. So I can't do a miter on its own. Right. I need to have something in there to secure that as well. Again, super new, floating new. [01:10:40] Speaker B: So sorry, super newbie question. What is a miter joint? I've heard that term before. I don't exactly know what it is. I think it's just like a very [01:10:47] Speaker A: basic joint, 45 degree angle. So when we're joining 45 to 45, that's a miter. So this is a. But, you know, when you're flat to a long miter is when we're, you know, at a 45, which gives us those smooth transitions. Also kind of when you think of the Straw side of wood. When I apply finish to a wood, the side of that straw is not going to absorb as much finish, whereas the end of that straw is going to suck up a lot of finish. And the more finish that sucks up, the darker the wood's going to turn. So typically end grain is going to turn a lot darker than long grain. So in a lot of Japanese and Chinese furniture, and in essence bonsai as well, the miter is utilized so you eliminate all ingrain. So you don't have this kind of visual disruption of these dark patches scattered throughout the piece. You get this harmonious tone where the wood's the same color on all sides, so you don't have that kind of visual disruption. So I tend to favor that kind of aesthetic. Some, like the arts and crafts movement in America, in Europe, wasn't as afraid of end grain and kind of use that. But in my aesthetic I kind of prefer this kind of even tone that we get from long grain. So the miter joint is. Yeah, that kind of 45 degree joint. And a lot of times in bonsai stands, when we have legs joining two rails, you know, you have the top of the stand where you have a 90 degree and then we have another 90 degree kind of an XYZ access. That's a basically a three way miter situation where you have instead of a 45 degree cut along the way, you have two 45 degree cuts so that you can join three diverging axises without any end grain being exposed, which complicates the miter just that little bit extra. And, you know, requires a different type of kind of joinery engineering to get that to happen. So in my work, by and large, I'm using splines to kind of bridge that gap, mostly for its efficiency. I've looked at strength tests and it's, you know, a floating spine spline is what they call it. And that's where you insert a piece of wood in rather than carving a piece of wood to extend past and insert into the other piece. You don't really gain any structure there. It's a little bit more just a flex of technique. But it's also very labor intensive and so can really just kind of create budgetary conflicts in a lot of cases in terms of what the labor takes to do things. So putting a floating spline in there, you're kind of getting there just a little bit easier. And it does allow you a little more flexibility in terms of what I can attempt in terms of creating the pieces, because I don't have to have that connection. I can take bigger risks. I can use the material a little more fluidly rather than having to incorporate the joint into the actual piece. And then outside of that principle, like you said, there's a million and one ways you can cut to join these things. I mean, anybody who's ever flip through the pages of a Japanese joinery book, I mean, it's a rainbow of techniques, you know, all doing different things and in different ways. And, and sometimes, you know, you have to kind of use these different techniques to get it to work. You know, for example, on that Frank Lloyd Wright piece, that side stand, it was kind of a. It's going to be hard to explain without any visual aids, but so the stand, you know, it's pretty typical three way miter stand, four legs, square top. But I wanted to create that sliding effect. So it goes up and then there's three rails to kind of form that visual kind of slats that you see on the island. But you know, the way the grain flows with the end grain and everything is very specific. And so I wanted, you know, that first slat, I wanted it to miter. So you come up from the legs and it miters goes into the horizontal piece, then miters back and falls down into the next leg. And then there's a recess and then you have your second slat. But that one's not going to miter because there's nothing for it to miter into. So that one's just horizontal with the miter on the side to kind of keep the horizontal trajectory clean all the way around the stand. And then the top slat has the visual miter both on the sides, but then also the top. When you viewed from above, you need the miter so that one flows, so that one had to kind of be mitered in a different way so you get that fluidity kind of on the top grain. And each of those kind of required me to cut away both the leg piece and the horizontal piece in different ways so that that kind of grain integrity is maintained. And I'm still getting that connection with the long grain to produce a secure joint. And that was kind of the push and pull. And the challenge of that, which is a fun challenge to solve, but you know, can get complicated at times. You know, the one advantage of the shohin is at such a small scale, those joints, structurally there's not much being gassed of them. So there's a little more freedom there in what I can do without having to reinforce them. You know, to do that for a 277 pound tree would be a very different scene. And there has been times when I've replaced these floating spines with steel to reinforce the joint because the wood isn't going to do it past that. And so I've had to have special steel pieces welded up that I can bury in the piece to support the weight and then hide those in wood. [01:17:18] Speaker B: Is there a certain weight limit that you start thinking about steel? [01:17:24] Speaker A: That more comes into the cantilever side of things is where I kind of go into that more. It would have to be a pretty heavy weight limit with four pieces. I mean, I'm sure there'd be a case where maybe I would need that on a regular kind of four legged situation, but counteracting the flex situation on a canvas because even 2 degrees of flex is really going to mess up a display and wood's always going to kind of have that flexibility to it. So cantilevers, you know, 50 pounds, nothing to sweat there. But when we start cresting a hundred pounds in a cantilever, that's starting to get to a point where steel might just have to be involved to just solidify that angle and make sure that there is zero movement in that wood. Yeah, totally, totally. [01:18:24] Speaker B: Do you ever bounce ideas off of or, or even chat with other stand makers, bonsai stand makers, or do, you know, do you reach out to a lot of different people or like, are you involved in any groups, woodworking groups or anything like that? [01:18:42] Speaker A: I mean, I've got woodworking buddies. Unfortunately it's a thin crowd in the sand maker world, so I don't really get to chat much. I enjoy at the shows getting to chat with stand makers and we can certainly talk shop at those points, but that's when I tend to get the most exposure to them. I can't think of another stand maker in Portland off the top of my head. So, you know, without that kind of face to face interaction, you don't get a lot of a chat time. You know, occasionally if I'm trying something that I am like, yeah, you know, I'm trying to solve a problem, you know, and I've got my theory and I'm a little dubious if it's actually going to be appropriate. I'll, I'll, you know, hit up a woodworker friend of mine and be like, hey man, like you want to tell me what I want to hear here? Does this sound good to you? Is this going to work? And they'll be like, I don't like that idea. It may make me rethink My thought process. I have a buddy in town who, he always jokes that he contacts me because I never tell him what he wants to hear because he'll come up with these ideas. That's not going to fucking work, man. He's like, why don't you just tell me what I want to hear? And I'm like, well, I can tell you what I want to hear, but it's. It's. When it's on the floor, it's. You're not going to want to see that. So, you know, sometimes it's nice to just kind of get that reality check. [01:20:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:20:15] Speaker A: You know, maybe the easy route ain't going to be the one you're going on this round. So. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely nice to have people in the wood world, you know, be it from, you know, lumber suppliers, you know, it's good to chat with them. And I've got a couple friends around too. You know, just. They mill wood exclusively and they certainly have, you know, skill and knowledge set that they can offer, you know, on. Through actual, you know, finished furniture makers. And, you know, it's never a bad idea to know guys making cabinets too, because, I mean, there's wisdom in that. And sometimes the structural demands of cabinet making can lend themselves to come in handy. You know, sometimes you got to merge these kind of fields to kind of create these things when people want. I mean, the idea that the custom world, it's. You're reinventing the wheel every time. I mean, this is not something that is. You're making something original. So it's not like there's this really roadmap to follow in a lot of cases. So sometimes it requires you to get outside the box and kind of pull from different fields to create something that works. [01:21:27] Speaker B: For sure. [01:21:28] Speaker A: For sure. Yeah. [01:21:30] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, it's. It's interesting. There's not a whole lot of us bonsai stand makers in the United States. It's. [01:21:39] Speaker A: It's a blessing and a curse. You know, it. You know, nobody's going to complain too much about being a monopoly, but at the same time, I think it does limit maybe a little bit how the stand is appreciated. And I think it also kind of does reflect a bit too how the stand is appreciated in the. In the art of bonsai. You know, in Japan, the stand isn't really given a lot of prestige and the display is not really considered to be a, you know, necessarily integral part of the display. You know, does it fit? Does it work? Does it match? Yes. But it struggles to get above Picture frame level, you know, on. In an art museum, you know, nobody's going to consider the picture frame of a Picasso as really integral to the Picasso. You know, they can distract from the Picasso, but it's not. It's not really thought of in the same tier. You know, a big part of what I've tried to explore is making the stand a part of that tree story. You know, kind of coming above the picture frame to where it actually has a voice in the display. You know, because there's so limited parts of a bonsai display, you kind of want to get the most mileage out of every part in my esteem. And every part, you know, does have a lot to say about what's happening in the display and what's happening with that tree. So, you know, for me, the Japanese kind of view is a little bit of a lost opportunity to really integrate those stands into the image that we're trying to create. [01:23:18] Speaker B: Very nice. Yeah, that's. That's interesting. [01:23:25] Speaker A: And. [01:23:25] Speaker B: And, you know, if you don't have the right stand, it surely can be very distracting or just throw your whole composition off. [01:23:36] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, it could be a real flat tire, you know. [01:23:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:23:40] Speaker A: And. And. And little things. Thickness, you know, you know, a lot of times, the. The visual mass of the stand could just really sink a display in both ways. It can be too thin, it can be too thick. You know, that's. That's a big one there that I think gets people 9 out of 10 times is just having. And it tends to be too thick over too thin. Sometimes that's just through not trusting the media, you know, just thinking that you need more wood than you do, you know, and sometimes it's just not picking the right piece to go with it or, you know, maybe just being, you know, I've got this option, and so I'm using it. And, you know, certainly that. That does happen, and that, you know, can't be avoided and in many cases, but I think simply just, you know, pushing the delicacy of the stand, boom. That can take the display to a new level. Then the color, you know, I think mismatched color is another big thing I see in a lot of shows just a stand that's way too light for the tree that's on it. And it's just, you know, that's a big distraction. You know, deciduous. You get a little more freedom with that. But, you know, in a conifer, Yamadori heavy America, a lot of times it's that light yellow wood, you know, with this big pine on It. It's just kind of like. I don't know. Yeah, I don't think it works unless you're trying to evoke the pollen. [01:25:21] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You know, the point that you were making just a second ago about maybe the stand being like a. An afterthought compared to the tree. That's an interesting one. And I think about it, and I think I'm going to do a horrible job at trying to articulate what my thought is there. But I do think that maybe I don't necessarily see it as beneath the bonsai tree or. Well, it's literally beneath. [01:25:52] Speaker A: I mean, I was gonna say literally. Yes. [01:25:55] Speaker B: Not beneath. Like, not as important as the bonsai tree. I just think that it's almost like. I don't know, a long time ago, I would sing in choir, and they would actually say that, like, if you can hear somebody in a choir, specifically, like, you can single out one person's voice, it can be distracting. And that's not actually what you want. You want, like, a harmonious tone coming from multiple individuals singing. And I feel like there is a lot of beauty with the bonsai stand when it's extremely well crafted. And I just think that it doesn't have to be overly loud. [01:26:38] Speaker A: Yes. [01:26:39] Speaker B: It has to flow with the. With the overall composition. And I don't know what I'm saying exactly, other than I think that there's. Yeah, go ahead. [01:26:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's well articulated, and I agree that's entirely true. You don't want to look at a bonsaita's play and see the stand first and exclusively. I guess for me, it's a matter of story integration. You know, like, the kusumono is an element that incorporates into the story of the bonsai. You know, the pot, in a lot of cases, too, is an element that incorporates into the story of the bonsai, the slab pot, the brightly colored glazed pot. You know, we're really pulling it into the story of the tree, where it is, what it does, what it can be. I don't think the stand is always considered in that level of story integration. I think a lot of times the stand is seen as a functional display, you know, and it's not that it's, like, not presented. It's that it's more functional than it's incorporated in that sense, if that makes. If that makes any sense there. And I think that's what delineates it for me, is really pushing that stand to be a part of the story, you know, not standing out on its own, not you know, being, boom, here we are, you know, but just kind of being like, hey, you know, I'm going to tell you about this tree, too. And it's done in minutia. I mean, just the fact, like, when we consider a cascade stand, the height of the cascade stand is telling us about this tree. It's growing up on a mountain. You know, it's. It's thin and it's kind of precipitous. It's. It's tilt, you know, it's tippy. It's. It's. It's a thin, tall table. It's not well balanced. This tree is high. It's on a ledge. It's, you know, tipping to the. You know, it's not secure. It's not grounded, you know, whereas, you know, a big, broad deciduous on a big, broad stand. It's in a stable valley. The dirt spreads out flat for miles around it. It's at no risk. You know, I mean, just that kind of level of nuance just really kind of does tell the story, you know, of the tree and what it's doing and where it's living and what it has to tell us, you know, and you can take it further from there, and you could be more literal or less. One thing I like about bonsai is it tends to be less liberal. I'm not a big fan of the kind of like, this is my meaning art, you know, do you get it? To me, it just. It kind of feels just. I don't need to be told. I get told enough every day. You scroll through things, people tell you their opinion. That's fine. It's nice to be able to sit with something and just see, how do I feel? Do I enjoy it? You know, there's nothing to get. You know, there isn't an answer to this problem. It's just. It's just a joy, you know? And how do you enjoy it and how do you feel? So, yeah, that's always been the magic of bonsai to me. [01:29:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there's definitely a balance there. People can get way too crazy with, like, telling you the. The story behind everything, like the lightning struck this tree and blah, blah, blah. Like, you could go on and on and on. At the same time, if you don't have any story, I don't think that's good either. Yeah, I like that a lot. [01:30:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. It's that balance. It's like, you don't want to hear anybody in the choir, but if the guy's not even singing, why is he in the choir either. You know, like, you need the voices to make the choir. So everybody's got to be heard, but then nobody's got to be heard. So it's just real delicate balance where you kind of have to be there without being there in a way, you know, Like, I did a redwood stand once, and there was some natural burning on the wood, and so I actually burnt kind of the underside of the top of the stand. You know, one, for color to kind of give it, you know, just some color variation to break up the form, but two, to kind of just tell the story of this redwood. Like, yeah, fire is a part of this tree's life. So I made it part of the stands, you know, design wise. But it's kind of hinting at this bigger picture, you know, simple thing like that, but it can really elevate, you know, what we're saying and what we're feeling and what we understand about the tree above it. [01:31:20] Speaker B: I like that. [01:31:21] Speaker A: And maybe that leads you to a bigger issue, like, well, you know, fire is good and natural, but excess is a problem. And then we can talk about all other kinds of shit after that, you know. But, you know, we don't need to have that slammed in our face, you know, it's for sure nobody's changing their mind at this point. I think we've learned that over the years, so. [01:31:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I am very excited about my Pacific bonsai entry. I hope that it gets accepted to the show. And I feel like there's, like, I'm. I'm so excited that you made the stand for me. And I think that it's really cool that we integrated the manzanita into the stand because Sierra junipers, which is the tree that I'm showing it grows near manzanita. I think the colors are going to look really nice. I think it's great that you are an American bonsai stand maker. I felt like that felt right to me, even if I can't, like, explain why that should be right or feels right. I like that there's that we used walnut, which is not a native tree to California, but it, I believe, was sourced from California. [01:32:31] Speaker A: It's an a. That walnut actually was in California. It was actually Washington walnut. But walnut is an iconic species, I would say, from California. I would say it's an economic mainstay of the state, for sure. That was actually a grafted English black walnut, which would be what you would be getting from California. So it's the same dynamic there, for sure. But, yeah, no, it's. Yeah. I mean, going back to the story thing, you know, it's. It's great to have those little touches that really speak to the. To their overall image of the tree. And I enjoy making the stands for these trees. I enjoy seeing them together. I mean, to me, I get the biggest thrill out of producing the stand and then seeing the two merged and having, you know, both the stand and the tree elevated through that. You know, the stand looks good on its own, but it's never going to look as good as it is when the tree's on it. And hopefully, if I do my job right, I could say the same for the tree. You know, I hope to say I bring something to the table with that. You know, I think that's for other people to say, though, not myself. [01:33:50] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. [01:33:51] Speaker A: That's my favorite part of it, is I can't tell people enough, like getting that first client photo of the stand in the tree together when it's delivered and on display. You know, as much as the finished. First coat of finish never gets old for you, that photo never gets old for me. I love seeing those. And that's, yeah, my number one enjoyment of every. All of this. So for sure, that's awesome. I'm looking forward to the pbe. They always do one hell of a good job with that show. And so I'm certainly excited about that. I'm excited about the plethora of bonsai exhibits we're going to have next year. I can't believe how many. It's so great, especially after Covid, when it was just so lean for so long on the display and the show side of things, to see this many exhibitions of prominence, too. I mean, you know, everybody at the club shows are fine, and they're great fun, but these national events, you know, where you get just the top caliber of everything, are just great to see. And to see three in a year as opposed to one every other year, is just awesome. So definitely hoping and happy to be at all of them and looking forward to seeing everybody, too, and all the trees. [01:35:19] Speaker B: That's great. [01:35:19] Speaker A: Maybe talk to a few stand makers while I'm there. [01:35:22] Speaker B: That would be awesome. Changing gears here a little bit, I was wondering how. How the root stand process has been going for you. I feel like that's kind of a different thing. New avenue for you to go down. How's it been working out? [01:35:43] Speaker A: It's been working out surprisingly well. I'm working on my second root stand commission piece. This one, the first one I cut from a preexisting kind of Natural block of wood. And I really thought that would facilitate the root stand process a lot better. Just having that kind of natural form. Turns out that's not the case. This one was cut from a solid block that I trimmed down on my own to the form of my choosing, and it went much faster, and it went much smoother than the first. [01:36:23] Speaker B: Interesting. [01:36:24] Speaker A: So a little less than learned there. Yeah, I did not expect that result, and I was very surprised when it kind of went that way. So that was. Yeah, that was very interesting. They're a bit of work, but they're a lot of fun to make. I'm hoping to do a few just kind of spec root stands to have on offer, you know, either at the shows or preceding the shows, if they get done in time. But I do plan on this being a more regular thing. It's definitely something to explore, and just the fluidity and freedom of them. It's just really kind of enjoyable to do. Just sitting there, just hogging out material left, right, and center. But then being freed from the natural form really gave me a lot of room to kind of make it more dynamic and kind of create a lot more interesting lines and flow. Go through the stand, because I could conceptualize that a lot more. Whereas, you know, when you're pulling from the natural form, you're. You're kind of constrained. You're kind of chained to that. And so you. You are a little more, I think, limited in the dynamism you could give to it. So definitely looking to push that. Looking to push the balance and the delicacy of them. I've got a. A bonsai stand inspiration file on my computer that I've kept over the years. And, you know, as I go through and see things, I'll stuff them in the folder for visual reference later. A lot of kokofu in there. But there's several root stands that I've compiled in that folder over the years that, you know, to me, were just kind of. And I think they're exclusively all Japanese. You know, I don't know if I. How many root stands have been made outside of Japan that you just. You don't see that form created a lot even in modern Japanese display. I don't know if there are many being made contemporarily. I think a lot of them are just kind of older remnants of, you know, past constructions. But I've been pulling inspiration from those. Some really good movement. That was just what really drew me to them. Very dynamic. And movement and dynamism is always kind of where I lean to aesthetically happy to be strong and static, but if I could be unbalanced and dynamic, that's the way I'm gonna go. So yeah, it's been a lot of fun. I got a huge block of acacia out of California a buddy of mine picked up and there's at least two root stands in that block. So that, that'll be, you know, one of those things I get back to. Once this, this Frank Lord Reich off gets, gets wrapped up, I'll start production on a few of those hopefully if I can get the time. [01:39:31] Speaker B: Ah, very exciting. Yeah, I think from the first one that I saw that you did, I was, I was blown away. I thought it looked really, really nice. And so I'm very excited to see you continue to make those. And yeah, I think I heard a narrative and I don't know how true this is, but I've, I've, I've heard that in Japan they're not being produced very commonly and so a lot of people are just hoarding them away or buying up whatever they can find. [01:40:01] Speaker A: That's kind of the narrative I heard. [01:40:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know how, how much truth there is, but that's what I've heard from a couple different people. [01:40:08] Speaker A: I mean they're not exactly labor unintensive. So it makes a lot of sense. [01:40:14] Speaker B: Are you using like a Dremel type tool? [01:40:17] Speaker A: I'm using everything starting off, starting off I have a three quarter inch drill bit that's 18 inches long. So starting off with that and just using a hammer drill, which is just kind of very high powered drill at just kind of almost blindly wailing through it. They're kind of this mix of intentional form and finding form, you know, so it's kind of removing a lot of material and then once you start to get that whittled down, then you can got to be like, well, what lines do I want to prioritize here? You know, but when it's a solid block, it's, it's like there's only too many options. So I feel like you kind of got to remove material to kind of give yourself a path. So just hogging out material, just rocking the drill, you know, using it almost as a cutting tool as much as a drilling tool to open up holes. And then I have a big old metal bit with birds cut on it. That was actually, I got it. When I first moved to Portland, I worked at a factory that made engines for the Boeing 787. So big titanium jet engines. And they would use these Burrs to grind down the titanium. And so I've just been. I took a couple of them, they would, they would throw em out, you know, when they were too dull for titanium. But they were still really good for wood. So I took a couple of those to cut and I've just been using that to just, just. It just devastates. Just tear up the wood, make the hole bigger. Using a handsaw to cut away chunks, you know, to open up more air. And then you know, at that point kind of getting in there with a dremel for the fine tuning detail and making sure things flow interestingly enter the right delicacy. But yeah, just kind of, you know, like any painting, you start with broad strokes and then you just kind of refine it as you go. Has been my general approach. Yeah. So. And then the finish levels where it kind of gets bogged down. Getting a uniform sanding texture on those kind of lines is very challenging and I've yet to find an efficient way to do that. The first one I ended up burning, which kind of smooths the texture and then wire brushing it to kind of achieve a more kind of natural root bark kind of texture which I think I kind of. I'm a little more towards that side of things just because if it is a root stand, I don't know if you've ever seen a root before, but they're not smooth, they're textured like any tree bark, you know. So having that kind of natural texture to me feels more appropriate. I know in Japan they're traditionally quite finished and I think this one's probably going to fall more towards that model. So that's been kind of a tedious thing getting it to that point. But I do think there is potential to kind of play with the texture on these things and to kind of approach it in a more natural. And then, you know, on the spec side of things there's more freedom to play. And I think I do want to push the balance and kind of have them as this kind of cross of natural root with maybe some sort of man made prop element to it. I don't know, kind of see where it goes. But certainly interested in maybe pushing that element where they feel like they either can't stand on their own or they're being supported. You know, kind of like, you know, old trees when they prop up the branches. Kind of inspired by that dynamic. I think there may be something interesting to explore there. Yeah. [01:44:12] Speaker B: So cool. Very cool. I'm excited to see you continue to develop those. There is one One individual that makes some really cool ones. Do you know Sean Smith? I believe his name is standing there. [01:44:30] Speaker A: Sounds familiar. [01:44:31] Speaker B: On the east coast, [01:44:35] Speaker A: the name sounds super familiar. I can't picture a stand in my head from it. [01:44:41] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, and I'm not sure how many stands he's making these days, but I, I think he studied in Japan, I believe, and, but anyways, I, I've seen some really nice root stands from him, but I think it's been a while since I, I've seen them. I don't know if he's, he's making them these days or not, but like the only other person that I, that I know of that makes root stands in the United States, [01:45:08] Speaker A: these kids, it's him. [01:45:10] Speaker B: Yeah, Sean. Yeah. [01:45:12] Speaker A: Yeah, I'd be curious to check those out. [01:45:15] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. [01:45:16] Speaker A: Yeah. They don't get a lot of. I mean, like I said again, it's high labor, you know, which. [01:45:24] Speaker B: Yes. [01:45:25] Speaker A: Is going to translate into more expense, you know. Absolutely. Which does limit. Limits the market, you know. And then in bonsai display there are kind of a specific niche as well, you know, like not every tree is a root stand tree, you know. Totally. It's a very specific tree that gets displayed on those. So it's kind of like double impeded there almost in that regard. But they're beautiful and so I think they are worth making. [01:45:57] Speaker B: Nice. Fantastic. Well, you know, Austin, I posted on my Instagram story, I know you reshared the post, but I just asked if anyone had questions for you. Is that cool if we dive into some of those? [01:46:13] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. [01:46:14] Speaker B: Okay. I thought there were some good ones and some funny and interesting ones. One of the first ones was would you take an apprentice? [01:46:26] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I get that occasionally. I'm not opposed to the idea, but it's never presented in a way that worked for both parties. I've had people reach out and it's been. They were asking kind of too much, you know, like, you know, just on a business side to make it work. Wanting health insurance and everything. I'm like, yeah, well, you know, sometimes I feel lucky to get it for myself and I don't know if there's the room for that. And I took a pseudo apprentice earlier on and there was some technical hiccups that ended up being problematic just in competency, just not knowing when working and interacting with high stakes pieces and led to some. Some problems that, you know, were. With one of a kind would. That was not easy to resolve. Yeah. So it's definitely a needle to be threaded, you know, but if ever the right situation were to come around, I'm not opposed to the idea and all these bonsai guys are lucky, they get tons of apprentices, you know. But yeah, nobody's beaten down my door either to do that. So you know, maybe one day we'll see if the right situation were to arise. [01:48:05] Speaker B: Yeah, I feel like with apprenticeship, both with bonsai and potentially if you were ever to take somebody on, it's all about finding the right person and it just has to fit for both parties. It has to be someone that you vibe well with and is going to be very cautious with, you know, high end wood and, and clients orders and things like that and, and it's safety violations and. Yeah, so. Or you know, safety concerns in the wood shop and. Yeah, you gotta find the right person. [01:48:41] Speaker A: Yeah, there's a lot to it. So it's not a simple thing. [01:48:45] Speaker B: That makes total sense. Yeah. Next question is a couple questions. One is would you offer private lessons? And then the other is would you ever teach a more advanced class or classes? [01:49:01] Speaker A: I do offer private lessons. I've done those in the past. I may not explicitly post that anywhere. I might, I don't know, it might be on my, I have a classes page on my website. I'm not sure if I mentioned private instruction on there, but I have done so and I'm totally open to it. It's, it's quite nice. I mean the class environment, you know, you're managing people towards a goal. It's always easier to manage one person to a goal than 10. So private instruction is great and nothing against that at all. So if anybody's ever interested, please reach out again. It's fitting schedules and locations but you know, if those can be negotiated. I've even traveled to other people's shops to do private instruction in their space. You know, it's just a matter of, you know, compensating for the travel time, you know, and stuff. But yeah, totally open to that. Um, in terms of advanced classes, I've been trying to do a three way miter stand class for a while now and haven't managed to get enough people together at one time to make it a viable class to run. Um, so I would hope to, I'd want to, if there's an interest there, again reach out. A lot of these classes, you know, classes are so time reliant. It's like I can post today, you know, sign up for a class May 23, but if there isn't enough people on May 23 that want to take the class, it doesn't run and it doesn't work. And so a lot of times the class is kind of, for me at least, because it's not my main hustle. Kind of come about organically where, you know, two people want a class, and then it's like, oh, we got two people. You know, what days are good for you? Let's see if we can get another, and maybe we can make this thing, you know, run, you know, at the end of May, I'm teaching the class to a family, you know, a husband, wife, mother, you know, and I think a brother who all want to take a class together. So it was finding a day that worked for them and me. And we were able to schedule something that, you know, was appropriate. So it never hurts to just drop a line. You know, one person in a class usually isn't enough to make it happen. Usually I try and hit.3 is kind of the magic number in the wood shop. So if you have three friends that want to take a class together, that's sweet. That's a lock. As long as there's not a huge scheduling conflict. For me, that's an easy one to make happen. If, you know, you're interested in a class by yourself, you know, you're just one, but you want to take the class on something, speak up. And, you know, somebody else might have spoke up too, and I might be able to put something together and make it work. Or I can put out an email and say, hey, you know, anybody want to do this? You know, so, you know, always interested and always happy. It's just making sweet, making all the bells ring at once. [01:52:03] Speaker B: That makes sense. I feel like I just thought of an idea. I feel like Bonsai Club should hit you up and do like a jita workshop. Or maybe they get, you know, small group together. You guys make. Make your own jita. I think that I would love to do that. [01:52:20] Speaker A: Done Jita classes in the past, they tend to focus predominantly on kind of the live edge aspect of things, you know, cleaning up the jitas. The technique I use to cut them is it's not dangerous, but it's a little advanced. A lot of saw blade exposed. It's like 13 inches of saw blade exposed. I show it in the class, but it's not totally something I feel comfortable throwing at people to do, especially in any kind of beginner situation. [01:52:52] Speaker B: It really takes pre cut a bunch. And yeah, that's what I tend to [01:52:57] Speaker A: do for the glass is I pre cut them, we finish the live edge, we sand them, you know, I go over the cutting process because it's fun to see and everybody gets to go home with some jitzas and that's a lot of fun. [01:53:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:53:10] Speaker A: And it's an easy one day or two, generally speaking. So yeah, I've done those in the past. A lot of fun. My class scheduling tends to kind of flow with my work scheduling. So, you know, like I said, it's kind of something I do a little more on the periphery. So when I get busy, classes tend to fall by the wayside. But gentle prods do kind of bring me back and be like, oh yeah, yeah. Hey, you know, maybe we can put this in the schedule. [01:53:41] Speaker B: Nice, nice. Okay, this question is if a customer gives a tree's dimensions, so the width of the tree, the height, the plot dimensions, etc. How do you determine the size of the platform form and height of the legs for the tree's display? [01:54:03] Speaker A: General math on it is you want the periphery of the stand just inside of the furthest extent of the canopy differs a little bit when you get species specific deciduous, we're going to want a more broad spreading platform. Still within the confines of the canopy conifer, they tend to have tighter canopies, so that tends to be a tighter stand. Also, you're just going to want a little less, you know, a little tighter platform. For a conifer, the pot falls with inside there's the outer frame and then the interior kind of slab that, you know, the picture window, so to speak, that kind of holds the pot and the pot needs to fall within that. You don't want the pot to cross over that kind of perimeter line in the interior of the stand. And so that kind of outside rail dimension kind of equalizes the two. So for a deciduous, it's very common to have like a 3 inch rail surrounding that inner platform to give the stand the width to span out to the near the edge of the the canopy conifers are going to have a lot tighter rail around that center platform because they have the tighter canopy, by and large. So it's just kind of balancing those two dimensions to get it to where it fits right. A cheater. You see sometimes in the Coco Faux, when a stand's not completely perfectly suited, you can push the pot back. So if the pot's too deep to fit with inside that picture window, it's acceptable to push it back over the back frame because it's a two dimensional art. You don't really see that just to ensure that that pot is within the picture window frame in the center. Every now and again in a show, I'll see a pot that breaches that. And it's just such a simple thing to push it back a little bit and open up that front rail. But definitely. Yet that's better than the alternative of having it overhang. And then the height is kind of a flavor of the month. I mean, generally speaking, the stand is to bring the tree up from the standardized tabletop to a proper viewing height. So, you know, a taller tree is going to need a lower stand. Shorter tree is going to need a higher stand. But then we're also balancing the element of is it a cascade or is it, you know, kind of spreading, you know, more upright, formal type tree? So if we have a small formal deciduous, you don't want to put that on a tall stand, you know, because it's not on a mountaintop, you know, so we do have to balance that height there. So sometimes we have to pull back a little bit on the height to accommodate the kind of story and aesthetic of the tree. But generally speaking, it's, you know, bringing it up to that level. And then proper viewing height is kind of a nebulous term. Proper viewing height for who? For me, I'm six two. You know, for some guy who's five two, we're going to have a different proper viewing height, you know, so there is a little bit of wiggle room in that. I tend to like them high. I like my trees up a little bit. [01:57:26] Speaker B: Me too. [01:57:27] Speaker A: To see them, to really appreciate them, get in the middle of them. Well. But I think to me that's a taste issue and some people like it different ways. So there is a little bit of flexibility in that. But generally speaking, that's kind of how you balance the math of all those factors to kind of put the tree on the right sized stand where you want it to be. [01:57:52] Speaker B: Seems like with height, the backdrop is very important too. Right. So you don't want to be above the. Above the backdrop. [01:58:00] Speaker A: It plays, it plays. I've developed. We've been working on a stand for the Pacific for a super high tree, really tall tree, and different shows, different backdrops. I know, you know, Bill with the national likes to put that front piece over, you know, see the backdrop and there's that front rail, which, I know it's a very Japanese traditional thing, [01:58:25] Speaker B: but [01:58:26] Speaker A: I feel then there's more at state when you. If you go higher than the backdrop and there's nothing in front, it's not as bad as if you go up into this, like, front stopper, you know, because then we're cutting off the tree at this point and that, that, that's an issue. So yeah, it kind of depends on the venue as far as that goes. But then it's like you're, you're basically, you know, you're trying to pick lesser two evils. Like is it worse to have the tree too low so it can't be appreciated because it might, the gin might go above the backdrop or is it better for the gin to go above the backdrop and be able to appreciate the tree? And it kind of comes down to preference at that point because I don't know if there is a right answer in that kind of situation. You know, we face the same problems when we're developing a tree. We with branching, it's like, well, you know, this, what's the best of the options that I have available? You know, because the ideal situation is not going to present itself here. So how do I mitigate the issues? What's the most important part of this tree? You know, that gin up there is the most important part of the tree. Well, maybe it needs to come down, but if it's, you know, down low, where the interest is, maybe we sacrifice the gin and push it above the backdrop. And so it's trying to kind of determine, you know, what do we, what are we going for, you know, what suits the tree best, you know, and [01:59:53] Speaker B: I completely agree with all of that. The part that I have a tough time figuring out and that I left, left this part all up to you is actually the thickness of the wood that we would use. So for me it's fairly mathematical and logical to determine the height and the width of the table. But I don't want the tree to feel like it's going to crush the stand. And I also don't want the, the stand to be too thick and look like it's overpowering for the tree. And so that part is hardest for me personally. [02:00:28] Speaker A: Yeah, and thickness comes two ways too. There's the actual thickness of the wood and then there's the perceived thickness. So when we put an edge treatment on a piece of wood, cut a cove out of it, you know, change the, you know, add elements to it that breaks up that thickness. So visually, while it may be an inch thick piece of wood, if I cut a half inch cove out of it, I'm seeing two half inches. And so visually I'm perceiving that differently than a inch thick piece of wood. And so there too we're balancing, you know, for your case, weight of the tree was A big factor. So I left the thickness a little bit heavier than I would probably go on a lighter tree. But then using edge treatments to break that up and kind of visually diminish it as much as I could. Also kind of the style of the stand, you know, that piece, it's very slab based, so it's got wide expanses of wood. Visually, that's going to make a heavier, bigger stand. So we don't need as much edge of wood to kind of compensate there, you know, whereas if it didn't have those wide expanses of wood, you might want a little more meat. You know, like a four legged stand, those legs can get pretty thick to kind of balance that weight. Whereas where that leg is solid, you're going to maybe need a little less thickness because it's made up for, you know, across the width of the whole thing. So, I mean, in all art, there's. There's no right answer. And so it's all kind of balancing elements and kind of coming to what seems to be, you know, the best solution of all factors. [02:02:11] Speaker B: Absolutely. Nice. Let's see. All right. One question was, what piece of your work do you feel this might be really tough for? This is tough question I wouldn't want. [02:02:32] Speaker A: This is the favorite child to a question. [02:02:34] Speaker B: Yeah. What piece of your work do you feel best captures your artistic vision and what inspired it? That's a tough one. [02:02:44] Speaker A: So this is the one. And this comes back. You wanted me to rate my stance best to worst. And I guess my question to this question is I don't think the mountain has one peak. That's where I find it difficult to answer. And so my question is best exemplifies in what means, like, you know, I mean, I. There's many aesthetic elements that I'm interested in exploring. You know, color dynamics, shape, form, technical, you know, interests. So it's kind of like. And how do you put one of those above the other? I don't think they can be ranked in terms. So you have, you know, these different peaks and, you know, in terms. And so I could maybe answer it as a collective more like, you know, in terms of color dynamics. I did a stand for Matt Barenberg out of Holly and Rosewood that had this like electric white and purple aesthetic to it. And I think chromatically, that stand really stood out to me. And it's just really dynamic and it just, it really punched and really played with the colors of wood in a natural way that I always really enjoyed, you know. But then there's like technical challenges that also Are interest or just kind of like shape interests? Like, I've been very interested in the kind of the wood carving and carving pieces of wood to form shapes while incorporating the natural elements of the wood. Kind of like you're your redwood stand, you know, and there's a piece on Ryan's website now that I made that kind of has curved sides and a curved base with incursions all throughout. And I think technically, within that form, that was a real accomplishment to make that happen and to make that piece work. So for me, that one has always kind of been something that's kind of near and dear to my heart. You know, that one with the curved leg with the cherry live edge on the inside, that could be a color contender too. That black against the kind of reddish cherry really punched in a way that I think really made a. Made a statement. And then the shape of the live edge, I think also, you know, I was very proud of how that was incorporated. Incorporated into the piece. That one has always been something I've been very proud of. So, yeah, it kind of depends on what determines value, I guess. And I guess for me, it's kind of like there reaches a point where you get a plateau of value where one isn't necessarily above the other. It just achieves different things, different interests, you know, in terms of experimentation. The concrete stand I did for the lab, I thought that one was a very. I'm very proud of that piece, and I think that really, like, technically was a huge achievement for myself and really opened up some new avenues just in terms of what a bonsai stand can be and can do. Chromatically, it wasn't very exciting, you know, in terms of form, it wasn't the most dynamic. But still, you know, something that I really treasure and I think was a very difficult and interesting piece to make and I think worked really well. So, yeah, I mean, that's my highlight reel, I guess, the best as I think I can answer that question. But, yeah, I do think it comes down to, like, you know, even you talking about ranking your trees. Like, is a deciduous better than a conifer? Can a really good deciduous beat a really good conifer? Or, you know, how do you rank those two? Because I feel like they're achieving different things, you know, and they're striving for different points. And I guess you could get down to the nuance of branching and stuff to maybe separate out the two. But then again, at the same time, you know, that conifer might really jump out at you and make a statement. The deciduous might really win in subtlety. It's hard to put one, you know, like, how do you parse that out? Yeah, you know, so that's, that's where I kind of get. It's a, it's a multi peaked mountain, you know, it's a sawtooth situation. And I think at a point, yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, you climb to the top and you can look over and see the top of the other one. I don't know if one can necessarily climb above the other. That's where I get hung up there. [02:07:33] Speaker B: Ranking things is very challenging with bonsai and with your stands. I couldn't do it. And I think it requires a tremendous amount of thought and I think it really comes down to how exactly are we ranking these things or what is the specific criteria you want them ranked on. [02:07:57] Speaker A: So like it has. Yeah, you have to give it that first before you can really delve into it. And that's arbitrary and depending on what your criteria is, that's going to change that ranking. Yes. [02:08:09] Speaker B: You know, is it trees for bonsai? In my mind I was like, okay, am I ranking these trees as they stand today or their future potential? And am I ranking them for like how good they are in the United States or how good they are worldwide? Because hey, my Korean hornbeam is really good in the United States, but if you take it to Japan, it's pretty good. So what are all the criteria and metrics that we're looking at? [02:08:42] Speaker A: Is this a traditional heavyweight or is this breaking new ground? Is this a Kokofu winner or is this gonna get lapped at Japan? But then be something aesthetically that I'm really proud of at the same time, like, you know, yeah, there is, it comes to a point where I feel like you get to a point where it's just like you kind of top out and then you have to pick, you have to pick the parameters to put one tree above the other. But you dial in those parameters and that preference changes. And so you get to like, you know, you could get it down to maybe five trees, but at that point all five of those trees are the top of some parameter, you know. Yeah, it's just change the game, change the winner for sure. [02:09:30] Speaker B: Well, yeah, with my bonsai it's a whole different thing because basically what I realized is I can only keep a certain amount of trees and that number is right around 20. And so I do think for me personally there's value in understanding the rank of my trees because I have to be if I buy a new tree. Because at the 20 mark now. Right. I have to be willing to get rid of one, and so I have to. I have to know where they. [02:10:03] Speaker A: It's a lot easier to rank disappointments. Yeah. Like, I could. It's a lot easier to be. To be like, yeah, I was the one that wasn't the proudest of. You know, that was the most successful thing I did. That is pretty easy that I can do all day long, you know? But those tough ones, the top ones is tough. [02:10:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:10:23] Speaker A: Or impossible. That's a debate for sure. For sure. [02:10:29] Speaker B: Cool. Let's see. You know, we got other questions, however. Some of these we've definitely reviewed already. Just, like, some of them were kind of around your. Your previous inspiration and kind of your background, which I feel like we. We touched on quite a bit of that during the first episode. [02:10:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:10:57] Speaker B: Let's see. Yeah, one of these is. Oh, go ahead. [02:11:07] Speaker A: Oh, I was just gonna say I kind of gotta run in, like, probably five or 10. We got a school auction to attend tonight. [02:11:13] Speaker B: Very nice. Very nice. Awesome. [02:11:15] Speaker A: Not to put a pressure on things, but. [02:11:17] Speaker B: Yeah, let's wrap it up. [02:11:18] Speaker A: You want to do. We could do one or two more, but, yeah, we should probably wrap it up, if that's possible. [02:11:23] Speaker B: Let's totally wrap it up. No, I. Hey, Austin, I really, really appreciate you talking with me and building now three stands for me. You've been so awesome to work with. It's been such a fun, collaborative process. I just think your work is absolutely phenomenal. We're very lucky. I've said this before. You're one of the American bonsai national treasures. We got to protect you at all costs. I hope you heal up from your surgery really quick, really soon. Yeah. I'm sorry you went through all that, but we need you back making stands. [02:11:59] Speaker A: Good news is I'll be bulletproof after the surgery, so once the mesh is ingrained, it doesn't break. That's great to hear. You know. [02:12:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:12:08] Speaker A: We achieve something through the. The pain. So, yeah, you know, better now than the middle of next year when everything's crazy. That was kind of the thought process, so. Yeah. Thanks. It's always great to. To work, and I'm. I'm happy I get to participate in this world, you know, as someone who practiced bonsai as a hobby, to be able to do it in any professional capacities. Really exciting and fun. So totally, totally happy where things said. [02:12:39] Speaker B: Awesome. Well, really appreciate your time. Thank you so much. You're always welcome here on this podcast. And so I hope, you know, at some point we can do it again. But thank you so much for everything. Really appreciate it. Austin and I run a document. [02:12:56] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks. Awesome. Nothing. Nice chat. Me too. [02:13:00] Speaker B: Bye. Whoa, whoa.