Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: To baby trees.
The black pondo podcast.
The Black Pondo Podcast.
[00:00:20] Speaker B: Thank you so much. I really, really appreciate you sitting down with me. And I am absolutely blown away by everything that I just got to see.
Your new garden is looking absolutely stunning.
[00:00:33] Speaker A: Oh, thanks.
[00:00:33] Speaker B: And some of those trees I am just, like, just made my jaw job drop, and I'm very jealous of. Especially some of your spruce. Those are insane.
[00:00:45] Speaker A: Yeah. They're great trees. And I know sometimes you get.
You get some envy when you.
When you don't know if you can keep them in your place, but this year.
This year, like, I'm excited about some of the spruces, too, because I've been sitting on them for a while.
[00:01:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: And so there's a few where I'm still not gonna. Maybe I style them later in the year, but there's still a few that I'm just gonna sit on them for one more year, but they're coming out of winter really well, and they're growing really well, so it's. It's.
I'm pretty encouraged by that, so.
[00:01:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:01:21] Speaker B: I mean, a couple of the trees you showed me, especially the one that was in the box with the two sections of roof.
[00:01:29] Speaker A: Coffin. Is that in the coffin?
[00:01:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
Like, those types of trees I just feel like I could just look at all day.
[00:01:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:01:37] Speaker B: And so. Good job.
[00:01:39] Speaker A: No, I'm. Good job. I'm curious as to how old.
How old that tree is, because that. That tree is. It's super, super old to get that big. Because usually for.
For some of those trees, for every.
Like with conifers, like with ponderosas, a lot of people say it's, you know, 100 years per radial inch.
[00:02:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:01] Speaker A: Where those. When I cut them there, it's about. It's about 45 years. So it's a little less than trees in the rock, but when you have a trunk that big, I don't know.
[00:02:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:12] Speaker A: It's gotta be pretty old, so.
[00:02:15] Speaker B: Totally. Yeah. You know, I. I kind of want to just bounce around in terms of topics, if that's okay, because I. You just bring up things that make me very interested in, and I'm really interested in the spruces and like, all the collecting and all that. One thing I really want to make sure of is that I'm very respectful, and if I ask you anything that you don't want to answer or whatever, you just tell me.
[00:02:38] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm not around the bush about it.
[00:02:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Good.
[00:02:42] Speaker A: I'll be. I. I'm pretty good at that. If I. So worry. Just ask Anything.
[00:02:46] Speaker B: Okay. And I'm not going to ask you, like, locations of collecting or anything like that, but tell me about those spruce and spruce in general. So. So you find them both in a fin area, which I would love to ask you more about, and then also in like, rock pocket.
[00:03:04] Speaker A: Yeah. So.
So some of the spruce that I get come from rock, and then some come from this.
From private property that I have access to. And so I go up there. But it's the only conifer that grows there are spruces.
So that's what's kind of unique about it. And then in that area too, there are native orchids, like high alpine orchids. There's wood lilies, which were like, endangered. There's all these dwarfs, like these different grasses that.
That people. Horticulturists have come there and think that like 99% of their population are in this one area. So it's a pretty.
It's just a. It's a very interesting place. But the only conifer that grows there are.
Are blue spruce. There's like river birch and willows and different, you know, decidu potentilla. Like, there's some pretty cool potentilla that are in there.
[00:04:11] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:04:12] Speaker A: But every. The only conifer. Yeah. Are the spruces.
[00:04:15] Speaker B: So that's so interesting.
[00:04:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:18] Speaker B: Fascinating. And I.
Collecting is an interesting topic.
I mean, talking to. And I don't even know. I. I don't love getting into, like, ethics and.
[00:04:31] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:04:31] Speaker B: And all that just because I feel like it deserves a podcast on itself.
[00:04:37] Speaker A: Right.
[00:04:37] Speaker B: Be like a whole day long.
And I think people just get very sensitive about it, but.
[00:04:42] Speaker A: Yeah, they do.
[00:04:44] Speaker B: I'm curious. So is.
So I've heard a lot of talk about the fin.
So there is a fin here. Can you explain what a fin is?
[00:04:53] Speaker A: Yeah, it's just. It's kind of a.
It's like a microclimate, basically. And it's like a small area where it's like it has its own little ecosystem because, like, where these trees grow and where I'm talking about right there, there are all these, you know, like, the grasses that are only like 99%, they think grow in this one area. But then once you get out, like within. Once you hit the edge of this air and you start going up the side of this, like, of the mountain.
[00:05:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:26] Speaker A: There's bristle cones, there's ponderosas, there's all this other stuff. But part of it is there was a, like a river that ran through this. And so they think. I don't know. However, a million years ago, there's this like a mudslide, and some glaciers carve this out. And so a lot of what's there is kind of like.
I. I think it's kind of like silt.
[00:05:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:50] Speaker A: You know, and it's like clay, and it's very, you know, fine.
But then right underneath it is all river rock. So it's flat river rock. Even where there's no, you know, so trees aren't able. They can't grow roots down very deep. They. They all have very, very shallow root systems. And it's interesting, too, because when you start, you see trees, and then right before we. Where the trees are, when you're driving in there, it's all like.
It's like prairie.
[00:06:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:21] Speaker A: You know, and then all of a sudden, boom, you're in the trees. So why. They don't creep out any further? You know, it's just.
[00:06:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:27] Speaker A: It's very interesting as.
As to how that. That whole place exists, but. Yeah, that's kind of what it is. I know.
I know. Randy gets some blue spruces from an area, and I think he's found a similar location.
[00:06:42] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:06:42] Speaker A: Or not a similar environment.
So.
[00:06:48] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's interesting with collecting.
I find that it's all about what is naturally dwarfing these trees.
And so we collect trees out of these trees that grow on rocks. And I usually call them pocket trees.
[00:07:03] Speaker A: Yeah, sure.
[00:07:04] Speaker B: Because they have a confined root ball. And then it's really cool to learn about. There's this thing called this fin. A finger.
[00:07:12] Speaker A: So.
[00:07:12] Speaker B: So you think that there are multiple fins? Not just.
[00:07:16] Speaker A: Yeah, there's more than.
Yeah, they're. I mean, I'm assuming they're all over the world, you know, but they. But different fins may include different species of plants, you know, versus.
Versus, like. Oh, well, bullets produce. Growing all these multiple fins. I don't think it's like that. I just think it's these little microclimates where certain plants are able to grow there when others aren't, you know, so.
[00:07:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. That's fascinating.
[00:07:47] Speaker A: It's fascinating. Yeah, it really is. So.
So then. Yeah, well, like, when I dig any of these spruces, when I bring them home, there's all these wildflowers in there, you know, or these wild plants. So I always try to. I remember, like, in 23, the abs show was here, and so I was one of the artists, and I did a workshop.
We were doing blue spruce. And so Young came in, Young Cho. And she was like. Before we started, she was like, anyone, if you want to take any of the Plants out, let me know because I would love them or keep them, you know, because she. She recognized what they were doing. It's like, they're. It's pretty interesting. So I tried to. And they're pretty sensitive. I have a spruce out there that has an, like a lady slipper orchid in it. And it. I didn't. I didn't dig it. It just like, came up one year and I took a picture and it was on my, you know, stories on Instagram. And Young messaged me and she's like, do not touch it. You know, because you probably kill it. And yeah, it's like, do not touch it. So. Wow. So I don't know. It's just stuff like that there. It's like you can. Anyone. You're in the mountains, you know, I'm sure you find a lot of, like, interesting just kind of native plants and ground cover and different things that you can use for accent plants. So, yeah, now I try to save as many as I can and make interesting things out of them.
[00:09:08] Speaker B: No, I love that idea. And I feel like the most authentic accent plant is something that grows, you know, just alongside them in the mountains.
[00:09:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:09:20] Speaker B: That's so cool. Nice. Well, I feel like we. We just jumped into things. I'm sure I'm going to have a bunch of questions that pop up in regards to those areas that we just spoke on.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:09:33] Speaker B: But actually, can we back up a little bit? And I would love if maybe you would just give us kind of a brief overview on your bonsai background.
[00:09:45] Speaker A: I don't know. I was in Spain and I forgot I, like grow a bonsai from Seedkit.
So I bought that in, I don't know, 20 some years ago, brought it home.
It was like a black pine. It sprouted, then it died. And so I just started looking up Colorado Bonsai and I found a place that was actually called Colorado Bonsai. That was Harold Sasaki. And so it was right by my old work, which was Kong.
It's a pet toy company.
[00:10:16] Speaker B: Totally familiar.
[00:10:17] Speaker A: Yep. So I was as art director for that company for a while.
And so I would just during lunch or after work, and then on weekends, I started going to. Over to Heralds and volunteering.
And then he introduced me to Jerry Morris, who actually found like this fin that we're talking about. He found that fin and people would pay him. He worked for a family in Vail, and basically he built a mountain there.
And he brought all this stone in, brought in all these ancient bristle cones and built a mountain. And then they would pay him. Part of his job was to find unusual plants. So he would just drive all over the country and find odd plants and then bring them back and plant them in this guy's garden. And so he took me to Utah for the very first time. And that's the first time I went. Well, Harold introduced me to Jerry and then Jerry, Jerry, Harold and this guy and Will Kearns were in like this small study group.
And I thought, you know, you go to Home Depot and get one of those junipers. That's where like over time you turn into these cocoa food junipers, you know. I was like, I didn't know how they did it, but I was like, well, I guess that's how you do it.
[00:11:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:36] Speaker A: And so Jerry was like, what are you doing? And he looked at a calendar. He goes, March 7th. I was like, I don't know, because it was January. He's like, we're going to go to Utah. So we went to Utah and just like tromped around there and looked at trees and dug a few trees. But that's really what.
That kind of opened my eyes to where these, like, where these great trees come from. It's like, oh, you gotta go, you gotta go to the mountains and collect them that way. So did you have experience in the
[00:12:07] Speaker B: mountains beforehand before this?
[00:12:10] Speaker A: No, no, I didn't, I didn't.
[00:12:12] Speaker B: So this got you going into the mountains once?
[00:12:15] Speaker A: I did, yeah.
[00:12:16] Speaker B: That's cool.
[00:12:16] Speaker A: Well, because I also like, as the art director, but I also played in bands because I have a degree in music and so.
[00:12:26] Speaker B: You do? That's cool.
[00:12:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I was, I don't know, I was wasting my time doing other things, you know, instead.
Instead of like going to the mountains and, you know, but it's, it's fine. That's something I had to do, you know. But then once I got out of bands and music, then I need it.
I don't know, I needed an outlet for creativity and like bonsai was kind of that.
[00:12:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:51] Speaker A: Was that outlet.
[00:12:52] Speaker B: So tell, tell me a little bit more about the band phase because I actually was in a bunch of bands too. Played guitar forever.
[00:12:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:58] Speaker B: I was in choir and when I was in high school and college, that was all I did is go to shows.
[00:13:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:06] Speaker B: Or like play guitar.
[00:13:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:08] Speaker B: And hang out with the friends and go to, Go to concerts.
[00:13:12] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's. Yeah, I have a degree in music. So when I was going to college, I had like, I had every minute of every day mapped out so I could get like, if I practiced, like Four or five hours. I was pretty upset because that wasn't enough. So usually I tried to practice like six to eight hours, but. Wow. But yeah, I got a degree in music and then I mean, I played in like metal bands, you know. That was like what I did. I had Dreadlocks My Butt and I had Marshall and Mesa Boogie stack tracks that were tall. Like, I played Red Rocks, you know, Red Rocks. I played that.
[00:13:49] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:13:49] Speaker A: Twice.
So I played some like big venues with. Opening for big bands, like, I don't know. So I think Godsmack and Bush and. Yeah, like big bands like that.
[00:14:01] Speaker B: That's so cool.
[00:14:02] Speaker A: But I don't know. It's good.
It's good that. That probably it didn't go further than it did, you know, for like my. I'm an all or nothing kind of person and so that, you know, with drinking or whatever, it's like all or nothing. And so like now I'm nothing. I don't drink at all.
I'm pretty straight edge. Yeah.
But yeah, it's good in the long run for my health that.
That it stopped when it did, you know. And bonsai is a very.
It's a very interesting, you know, art form that took over, like, you know, from playing in bands.
[00:14:40] Speaker B: But what kind of.
What are some bands that influenced you a whole lot?
Yeah, I mean, and I was really into metal. My first album was Deftones or On the Fur. Yeah, I think that was what it was called. Right.
[00:14:56] Speaker A: Yep, it is. That's.
[00:14:57] Speaker B: I love that album. So good.
[00:14:59] Speaker A: Deftones was a huge influence on me.
I mean, Ozzy with a big influence, but then like, I liked corn a lot. I'd never had a seven string, but I liked that style. Like Tool or A Perfect Circle was a big influence.
[00:15:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:14] Speaker A: White Zombie. Like I loved White Zombie.
So stuff like that. Yes. Like, it wasn't as much of a influence on me, but on like a singer that I had, he liked like Allison Chains, Stone Temple Pilots and stuff like that. So. Yeah, when I played in Bandswood, I. What we did, I had a. Like a. At the time it was like state of the art keyboard. So I would like sample stuff and do electronic. Like I like Prodigy and the Crystal Method and Chemical Brothers and any like a lot of electronic stuff.
[00:15:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:50] Speaker A: And so I. I'd program all this electronic stuff and then we do like drop C tuning with just heavy guitars over tops. So it was. Yeah. I don't know.
It's a lot of fun, but yeah.
[00:16:02] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:16:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:03] Speaker B: And yeah, Red Rocks is on my bucket list. Everyone says you have to go see a show there. I hear it's just absolutely beautiful.
[00:16:11] Speaker A: It's beautiful. They also, in the summers they have movie, like movie on the rocks.
[00:16:16] Speaker B: Oh, cool.
[00:16:17] Speaker A: It's like Bridget and I, we've gone up and seen Jaws and Raiders of the Lost Ark and stuff like that. But so for movies it's great. It's just an incredible venue.
So. Yeah, I know if you come back in the summer, I don't know when you come back next, but if it's in the summer, sometimes there's shows there all the time.
[00:16:38] Speaker B: Awesome. Well, it's on my list.
[00:16:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:16:41] Speaker B: Oh, that's cool. Okay, so you went collecting for the first time and then was it kind of a gradual shift over to bonsai from music?
[00:16:51] Speaker A: I was doing both at the time and actually what. I went to the mountains with Jerry and then like one of.
I don't know how it was a long time ago, but one.
At one point I had quit drinking and so instead of like drinking, I had to find stuff to do and so I would go to the mountains. Yeah. And that was a way to like clear my head and kind of keep myself saying when I. When I wasn't. When I didn't drink, I. And it's like I wasn't drinking every day, but if, when I did drink, I drank a lot. So I was like a binge as a binge jerk, you know, so that's kind of. But then I was like, all right, I can't.
Can't drink. So I, I would start going to the mountains. So I was. That was the way I started, like really hitting the mountains quite a bit.
[00:17:40] Speaker B: Awesome. Yeah, that's a good trade off.
[00:17:43] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's pretty cool.
[00:17:45] Speaker B: Okay, so you started collecting and then. Or not yet?
[00:17:51] Speaker A: No, Yeah, I was, I was just trying to think of what year it was, but I don't know when it was. Yeah, 2010 or something, maybe.
[00:17:58] Speaker B: Okay, sweet.
[00:18:00] Speaker A: So.
[00:18:00] Speaker B: And then when did you start studying with Ryan?
[00:18:03] Speaker A: So Ryan was 2012, I started studying with him. So I take that back. Maybe it was 2004, I started collecting, so. But yes, 2012 I started studying with Orion. Okay, sweet.
[00:18:19] Speaker B: Very cool. And now bonsai professional of several years.
Would you tell me a little bit about your kind of how your time is divided up? We fast forwarded way fast. But what's your time divided up like bonsai wise these days?
[00:18:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
So basically like right now from January until May 1st, or actually this coming. Yeah, May 1st.
I travel a lot and then I have Classes. So it's.
I don't know. I don't know. I think I've had, maybe I've had one day off where I didn't have to work and I could just like water.
But that's about, that's about it literally since the beginning of the year. And then like from May until the end, end of August, beginning of September, I'm home.
So I stay home most of this time. There's a couple places I go to, but it's pretty minimal. So I try to stay home, stay around the garden, collect, work on trees, teach classes.
And then starting like September, October to Thanksgiving, I travel because it's here.
Once you hit October, unless you have a greenhouse, there's not a lot of stuff you can, you can do because you have to protect trees. Because our winters are, are pretty severe. So I kind of cut classes off in October.
[00:19:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:48] Speaker A: And then I start traveling more to, to places I can still, you know, that are. Have a little milder climate. So.
[00:19:55] Speaker B: That makes sense.
[00:19:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:57] Speaker B: And are you traveling all over the US or do you generally like try and stick as close as home to home as possible?
[00:20:06] Speaker A: No, I'm all over the US but it's.
I don't know, it's people that I worked for in the past and so it's. And there's some places where like before I'd go two times a year and now I can only go once a year, you know, so it's trying to. I'll go all. I go all over the US this year. I'm going to England in June.
But it's.
Yeah, it's. It's kind of people that I've. I've had for a while. Yeah. That I've been with for a while.
[00:20:33] Speaker B: That makes total sense to me. I feel like.
And you know, I work with Peter and Peter T. And you have to find people where it's going to be a win, win for the bonsai professional and the client.
You know, both of you have to get what you want. It just has to be a working relationship vibe together.
And so I think that there's not enough bonsai professionals to really go around maybe in the US and that's kind of what I have witnessed or that's kind of my theory.
[00:21:05] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I think if, if you're willing to travel, you could stay busy every day.
[00:21:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:13] Speaker A: And you can make a living. You know, it's like if you. I mean, I think some people will get weeded out, you know, as to what they're built. But for the most part, I feel like if you're. Yeah. If you're willing to travel, there is so much work out there because the United States is gigantic and there's not a ton of, you know, professionals to go around. So that's.
So when I first.
When I first quit my job and then to start doing bonsai full time, I had a few things lined up. When I quit, like, from March 1st, that's when I said, like, my last day was Friday was actually the. Friday was March 3rd.
And so I had, like, from March to June basically open.
That's like, well, we'll see, you know. And then, like, immediately, I just. I. You start getting work. And so I would, like, be gone 10 days and then home four. And I was taking, like, anything. I was taking anything because, like, part of it, you have to prove yourself. It's like repetition on trees because, like, I'd studied with Ryan and I went there like, three times a year. And then when I wasn't there, I was at home getting up at like, 6 and working on trees and going to work and then coming home and working on trees till night. So that's all I worked and I worked on trees. That's all I did. But then when you go and you start traveling, you start seeing species you didn't necessarily spend a lot of time with and raw trees that I thought, you know, oh, I have a good grasp on designing these raw trees. And you find out very quickly that you don't.
And so you. Yeah, it's a.
There's a big learning gap, you know, in the.
In the beginning, and you find out that you don't know, you know, as. As much as you think. But I don't know. It was good. It was good, you know, to. To be able to do that and to get that amount of work, you know, to where I was able to make a living out of it. And, you know, I don't know. You just. You gotta. You gotta prove yourself. So.
[00:23:18] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And now you're giving an opportunity. You have an apprentice here. I got to meet him. Yeah, he's, like, a really cool guy.
[00:23:26] Speaker A: He. He's great. And he was a student here, and for three years, he was a student. And so he had asked. I don't know if it was. It wasn't last year, it was the year before, about coming out here and, like, apprenticing. And I. I was not interested in that. And I'd had three other people before him ask, like, if is that an option? And it wasn't something I was interested in.
And then last year, when he was here in August, it kind of came up again.
And I don't know, I have gotten to a point where I'm at where I need. It's like, I do need help.
And, like, my garden and the trees that I have are. There's quite a few, and it's like, I need. I need that extra hand. And so I was open to it, and, you know, I was like, yeah, let's. Let's do it. And so we'll see. And then when I was driving to nationals, he called me and he's like, hey, I got everything squared away. I could be there in November.
So it's like, great. Do it. So he's been here since November.
[00:24:31] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:24:31] Speaker A: And then we'll see. But he had, like, a certain timeline that he had committed to, and we've been talking about that, so I'm thinking he's going to extend that timeline.
[00:24:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:45] Speaker A: Which. Which is good. And I don't know, one thing with him, he has. He's talented. Like, he's talented already.
And when he came here, like, the first time, I was like, oh, this. You know, Francesco has talent, and so that helps me, too. And then, too, being a student, he understands and knows, like, my aesthetic and what I'm going for. And I know, you know, watching him work, I. You know, I know what he.
Where I. Where some of his weaknesses and strong points are. And then, like, just being. I don't know, being able to give him the work to where I know the trees are in good hands, but I also know, like, I can. What. I'll be adjusting, and, you know, it. It'll be good for him to see.
To see how I adjust his work, you know, but, yeah, it's worked out.
It's worked out really well. And we get along, you know, because that's. I think, one. Like, over here, it's different than I think in Japan, because at least for me over here, I need.
I need to like you.
[00:25:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:55] Speaker A: If I'm going to spend that much time with you, and if I don't. Or if you're. I don't know, if you suck the energy out of me, it's not going to work, you know?
[00:26:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:03] Speaker A: So there's a. There's a. Personalities, you know, have to kind of mesh, like you were saying, in order to. To have this work over here.
[00:26:12] Speaker B: Yeah. I feel like people rub off on you whether you like it or not. And if you spend a lot of time around someone, they're just going to rub off on you whether you like it or not, whether it's positive or negative.
[00:26:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:25] Speaker B: And so for me, I think you should be very guarded in the people that you choose to spend your time with. Also think that it seems like a tip for people that want to apprentice with, with professionals is it should come out organically or the relationship should, should evolve organically. And you have to do like a test run kind of thing. You have to get to know the professional before you ask. I feel like you shouldn't just ask somebody, especially if you don't know them very well.
[00:26:58] Speaker A: I mean, I think it's good. Yeah, it's like, it's a, it's a good ask. But so with Francesco is different because I knew his personality. And also like before he even got here, he shipped all of his trees out. That he was. Because that was one of the things I told him. It's like, look, I can, I can, we can keep your trees here so you don't have to like sell everything or you don't have to board them out there. It's like, bring them out here.
[00:27:21] Speaker B: That's awesome.
[00:27:21] Speaker A: Because I've had like some influence on some of his trees too, and I like some of his trees. So it's like, yeah, bring them out, we'll stick them in the garden.
But yeah, if, if I had not known his personality, then it's like a. I don't know, I don't know, like three month trial or one month trial or, you know, it's. That's how it would have to be with me in order to know how we're gonna work together. So.
[00:27:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Gotcha.
[00:27:49] Speaker B: Well, I'm glad you found someone. He seems like a solid, solid dude.
[00:27:52] Speaker A: He is.
[00:27:53] Speaker B: And you definitely have enough trees to keep more than.
[00:27:58] Speaker A: Yeah, more than one. I mean, maybe I need another apprentice. I don't know. So.
[00:28:03] Speaker B: Nice.
[00:28:03] Speaker A: Nice.
[00:28:04] Speaker B: What about like next, maybe 10, 15 years, where do you see yourself going bonsai wise?
[00:28:13] Speaker A: I mean, I think in that.
I think ideally I like to stay home more. I would like to just like build trees more. I'd like to have my garden done, you know, like, I think maybe five years. Maybe that's in my five year plan is to have, have like all the structures done because there's still like more like right in front of my greenhouse. It's like, do I build another structure there? You know, so I have areas where I could, where I could build stuff.
[00:28:39] Speaker B: Your garden looks beautiful. Like it's, it's looking really nice. I love the structures that you made.
Look, look really, really good.
[00:28:48] Speaker A: Yeah. The structures are pretty neat. I need, like, in the show garden, I'm going to bring in more stone, like big boulders and bring in more of the gravel because it's a little thin in areas. And I still need to landscape everything. So I think that's one of the, like, when you're building a garden. When I first got the, like, the initial, that back structure done, I just wanted plants in there. So I went to, like, a garden center and just picked pretty things that were flowering and planted them in there. And so. But now what I have to basically, all that. Anything I plant in the ground now probably needs to come out, and I need to, like, come up with what are the plants that I'm going to use and have it so it's, you know, cohesive throughout the whole garden. And pick like, these are my plants. Not. Oh, that's. That one's flowering and it's purple and this one's yellow. And I like, you know, I like flowers, so. Oh, and this is red. I don't have a red one. And so it's kind of like, very scattered at the moment.
[00:29:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:44] Speaker A: So I need to. Yeah. Like, just figure out, like, or have a garden designer help me with what are the plants that I'm going to have in there.
[00:29:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:53] Speaker A: How did you do it with yours? Did you just design mine at all And.
[00:29:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I did. I actually like picking plants. I. I took a page from Matt Michigan. Yamadori.
[00:30:07] Speaker A: He.
[00:30:08] Speaker B: He was like, you know, I started with a bunch of different plans. I had all kinds. And then after a while I kept, like, pulling those out and just going with the ones that I really like. Yeah. Which I think that's what I'm doing. I kind of got a few too many.
What I have kind of a funky time with in my garden is I really want to do a native thing, but I also like the Japanese stuff.
And so I don't know if it makes sense to blend the two. That's kind of what I'm doing right now.
Or I think maybe long term, what I'm going to do is I'm going to have a native garden with California natives, Sierra junipers, ponderosa pine kind of thing. And then like more of a traditional Asian, Japanese plants. But I don't know if there's a right answer to that or not.
And I. I've just picked plants that I love, like ones that I've seen up in the mountains or, you know, Asian species that I like.
[00:31:06] Speaker A: Yeah. So there's a place here where it's all. All they do is sell native plants.
[00:31:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:12] Speaker A: So I think that's what.
What I'm ready to, you know, pick my grasses and pick, like, some, like, sedum type things or, you know, ground covery things or even whatever. I think I'm. I'm just gonna go there and, like, have them help me with my. With my palette. And then I like that there's always, like, Euonymus is a neat plant. You know, the burning bush. It's like. And then what are the. Some of those things that have.
I don't know. I would like. Like, maybe even like some of the Korean maples, because they're Hardy to Zone 4. But then you get, like, seasonal color, you know, and different things like that. So it's like, how do you. What are those? I love forsythia.
[00:31:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:52] Speaker A: But then they're sweet in the spring, and then, like, the rest of the year, they're kind of.
They're not that cool, you know, but so I don't know, just finding those plants that.
That have, like, some seasonal variation to them that keeps things. That's part of the reason why, like, all of a sudden I got into deciduous.
Because, like, they're spray like springs. When Japanese maples or larch or hornbeams or anything like that. When they're just first pushing, it's like the most beautiful thing ever. And then you get the fall colors.
[00:32:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:23] Speaker A: You know, and I mean, I look at. I even look at conifers. Like, the spring push is great. And then usually in the fall, it's like, oh, they're just shedding needles. But I try to look at that as, like, that surfall color. Yeah. And, like, appreciating that foliage that they're dropping.
[00:32:40] Speaker B: You know, it's funny.
So Akigitsuni bonsai.
Is he. Is that what people call.
[00:32:51] Speaker A: I call him Isaiah.
[00:32:51] Speaker B: Isaiah. Yeah, Isaiah. So he posted a pomegranate that I think you helped him repot.
[00:32:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:57] Speaker B: I remember he told me he didn't like deciduous, which is super funny.
[00:33:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:02] Speaker B: I feel like, as a bonsai person, even if you're really into conifers, if you have some deciduous, it just makes your conifers, like, stand out or look better or. I don't know what it is, but it's, like, nice to have some balance in the garden.
[00:33:16] Speaker A: I kept telling. It's like, just wait.
[00:33:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:18] Speaker A: He's like, no, I just want more junipers and conifers. I don't want deciduous. And I kept telling him, just wait. And then all of A sudden it's like, oh, what do we have here?
Because like a truck came.
Came through to pick up some stuff for me that was going out there for repotting. And so he's like, will you check on every. So I went in and watered everything. It's like, oh, there's. There's some cork bark elms in here. What are. What are those doing in here? And it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, the pomegranate.
So it's like, yeah, well, it's not deciduous, but. No, it's basic. I kept telling, just wait, just wait. And then all of a sudden it's like, okay, here we go, Here we go.
[00:33:56] Speaker B: That's so funny. Oh, my gosh.
I love it.
So if just Magically an extra $200,000 appeared and you had to put it into your garden, like, right away, what do you think you would do with that?
[00:34:14] Speaker A: So I think I would probably. Because my.
I think I would build if permits allowed it. What I would do is take down my greenhouse and build a bigger, bigger greenhouse out of, like that.
Out of lumber?
[00:34:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:32] Speaker A: Like, the one I have is kind of industrial. It works great and I love it, and it protects the trees and everything. But I would. Ideally, what I think I would do is I would take where the greenhouse is and that whole area in front, and I would build that whole thing into a greenhouse, but then have it to where maybe the panels come off or the tops open up so it's not just.
It's not vacant during the winter or during the summer something. So it's like functional during the summer. And then you can like board it up, heat it in the winter, you know, So I think. I think $200,000 would do that. I think 100,000 would probably do it, but. Okay, 200 would for sure. So sweet. But I think that's. I would finish the other, bring in whatever stone I need to, you know. But for the main thing is, I think it would be really interesting to have. Because here we get down to.
In the summers we'll hit 100.
And in the winters, this year wasn't too bad. We got down to zero. But most winters were in the. We'll. We'll hit the negatives.
[00:35:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:36] Speaker A: And so it'd be nice to have. It'd be nice to have a big structure like that that is also. That's functional functionality for the summer and the winter.
And so. But the structures that I built that kind of like when I was building those and talking with my. The architect and sending him my Initial design. So that was my idea for that too. It's like I need something that can provide some sort of shade in the summer, but then can provide protection from the sun and wind in the winter. And so that's why, you know, why I have it built like that, why I have like two by eights, what is that perpendicular to like a foot on center. So then in the summer it gets 70%. I did a sun test. I had another friend that was an architect, Scott in Wisconsin.
And so I sent him the drawings that I had and he like autocad it up. And so we took like two by sixes, two by fours, two by eights, two by whatever. And we did this whole sun test. So he could say June 21st, here's where the sun is at your zip code and December 21st, here's how it's going to look in your zip code. So we're able to do a whole sun test on that. And then in the winter I just take 6 foot tall heavy duty weed barrier and I enclose the structure that any of the trees that are out in the different areas and it blocks the wind.
And because of how the two by eights are and how it's all built, it gets, it's bright, but there's not a lot of direct sun in there. Yeah. And so it helps like moderate the temperature. Because in the winter, like you're in the sun, it's hot and you walk in there and there's a like a significant drop in temperature. So it helps like stabilize temperatures.
So that's kind of like how I went about building the structures I have out there.
And two, like we get hail. And so like the two by eights also help like because it comes in at an angle because a lot of times it's. There's a heavy winds with it. So that helps protect from hail. So. Yeah. But having. How did we get there? We got there from $200,000. Yeah. So that's kind of.
But yeah, having a greenhouse. But then like with that, that's kind of my thought process on building the structures that I had. So. Yeah. Sweet.
[00:38:02] Speaker B: I feel like the bonsai enthusiasts of the greater Denver area are so lucky to have you, especially after you've built this because they get to learn from how you did it and what you learned and how to adjust for your climate.
[00:38:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:17] Speaker B: I feel like one of the challenges in the United States is like we have so many different climate and everybody's weather and challenges are different when it comes to that.
[00:38:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:28] Speaker B: That it's just so much that you would know. Like, I'm sure you go see Ryan, there's still a lot of adjustments that you have to make in terms of like this climate. Like, it's a lot drier here. I would assume so, yeah, probably.
[00:38:42] Speaker A: Watering is, I mean, even earlier this week. I'd be curious what it was today, but earlier this week the humidity was 12%, so it's really low. It's really dry, you know, so it's, it's. Yes, watering is a thing.
The UV index is a thing.
And so we have two more people around Colorado that are, you know, that are into bonsai, are all putting up more, some sort of like shade protection, you know, like as temperatures rise and, you know, things just, things are changing climate wise. And so a lot of people are building that.
But yeah, I think, I think I've helped out.
I hope I've helped out the community and being accessible to people. And when I was in Sacramento for their show, they brought me in a couple years ago and I saw Peter there and Peter took me to his place and so it's like the same thing I told him when I was doing my demo. It's like, I hope everyone here realizes how fortunate you are to have Peter this close to you, you know, So I think I'm hoping they feel, you know, that same way with me, that I'm able to help them out and, you know, help with their trees and, and help them learn from, from my mistakes to my, you know, the growing pains from that, that I've gone through. So.
[00:40:11] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. No, we're very lucky to have you in the U.S. oh, thanks.
I feel like it's so cool just to see people pushing bonsai forward in the US And I, I take a lot of pride in American bonsai. I don't know if that's silly or, or what, but like, I feel like we are a team, an American bonsai team. And I, I just love to see us elevate and it's because of people like you to bet on yourself. And it ended up working out really well. Yeah, it's really cool to get to see the fruits of your labor and everything you've been doing here. It's looking so cool.
It's really awesome to talk with you.
[00:40:55] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks. No, I feel, I feel very fortunate A lot of times, like, I'll walk down to the garden and it's like you have to kind of step back and just appreciate what's there and realize what it was like three years ago, you know, and just be like, wow, this. This structure is pretty cool. And like, the trees I have are pretty cool because when you're in it every day, you kind of. Maybe you come because you become a little. A little jaded or a little like.
Yeah, it's a cool tree. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's cool.
[00:41:26] Speaker B: One question I have for you is, is do you think that as you gain more experience in bonsai, that the level of a really badass, impressive tree has to go up and up and up for you? Because is that. That's a thing, right?
[00:41:43] Speaker A: Yeah, it's.
It's harder.
I still. I love trees, but, like, one where it's like, okay, that's. That moves me. It becomes harder and harder. Like, you see so many trees. You see so many trees that have, like, this form. Yeah, like, I've seen that form before.
And so, yeah, it is. It's harder. I just did.
Why did judging for that bonsai girls, you know, for their annual or their yearly, like that event. And so one of the things, like, I voted for a tree and the owner of the. The tree that I like, where two of them were competing, and I voted for B. And maybe the owner of A, like, wrote me.
He's like, I'm just curious why.
You know, it's like, your tree's great, but I'd seen that form before and it was nicely executed. But this other one is like, it was executed very well, and I haven't seen this before. So I, like, that's where my judging. Whether that was an error on my part or not, but at the same time, it's like, I haven't seen this before.
So that's, you know, that it moves me a little more where I've seen. I've seen this form before. I seen this. This look before 100 times, you know, and so that's. I think that's where it comes into play where.
Not necessarily species, but.
Yeah, it just.
Someone has a, like a quirky new, like, feel on things. Like Hugh Grant in Australia. In Australia, tree makers. Like, a lot of his where it's like, very mediterranean, you know, but it's like how.
How he designs trees.
It's like even black pines have this kind of mediterranean feel to them and this look. And it's. It's really inspiring because you don't see a lot of.
A lot of work like that that's on that level, you know, so it's like he was a. He's a quite a talent. And, you know, a lot of the trees that he post really moved me. So.
[00:43:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
That's interesting. I remember Jonas of Bonsai tonight.
[00:43:56] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:43:57] Speaker B: Telling me that basically, like, as a judge, you would be harder on the trees that you know super well.
And I think that's true. Absolutely. So, for example, with spruce, blue spruce, I feel like, you know, more than probably anybody, you know, like what a good.
The highest quality blue spruce look like.
[00:44:20] Speaker A: Right.
[00:44:21] Speaker B: And what are the characteristics? And it probably takes a lot to get you, like, really jazzed on a blue spruce because you have the. Some of the best ones.
[00:44:31] Speaker A: I mean, I have some good ones. I have some good ones. You know where I have some good ones.
[00:44:36] Speaker B: Probably the. Probably you3 have.
[00:44:39] Speaker A: I don't know anyone else that has the best one. Good ones. Yeah. I'll tell you have a better one.
[00:44:42] Speaker B: So you three probably have the best.
[00:44:44] Speaker A: Yeah, but they're. Yeah, it is with.
And so too, like, I go and I work for Isaiah and it's fun.
It's fun working on his spruces because they're. It's the material he has. You know, it's. It's really good. And it's. They're not trees that I. I collected, but I do enjoy working on them because they are.
Yeah. The quality of those trees are. It's very high and it's.
You have to have a lot of respect for them. And at times, you know, it's a little intimidating. At time, you know, it's like. It's still.
Techniques are the same, like, thought process is the same, but you just have to, I don't know, just being very. I don't know, I don't want to say like cautious, but just thinking a couple steps ahead maybe, or like thinking a couple, like multiple times before you do something just to make sure. Because on some of those trees, you have one. You have one shot at it, you know, or the branches are very brittle. So you have to be, you know, very concise and know exactly what you want to do ahead of time. But.
[00:45:53] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:45:54] Speaker A: But at the end, it's pretty. It's a lot of fun when they turn out really well and then they. They grow and they do really well.
[00:46:01] Speaker B: So it's.
[00:46:02] Speaker A: Yes. You know, that's how it is with old Zion, like doing big structural stuff. You know, it's. It is nerve wracking when you're taking live veins out and on old Rockies and you're moving branches, you know, almost like 90 degrees or whatever. You know, it's like none of that is fun and it's scary, but when you've engineered it correctly and then you've done all the moves, and the branch continues to grow. It's. It's so rewarding, you know, and it's, like, exhilarating knowing that that work went successfully. So.
[00:46:36] Speaker B: 100%.
[00:46:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:46:38] Speaker B: Did I see some videos? You have a skid steer or a. What's it called?
A dingo.
[00:46:44] Speaker A: I have a toro dingo.
[00:46:45] Speaker B: That's so cool.
[00:46:46] Speaker A: X427. X427. Yeah.
[00:46:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
I feel like I want one someday, but for big trees, it's, like, seems so convenient.
[00:46:58] Speaker A: It's necessary. So there's.
There is a pro and a con.
[00:47:02] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:47:02] Speaker A: The pro is, like, if you have big trees, it's easy to move them around. The con is you keep getting bigger and bigger trees.
That's the thing.
[00:47:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:13] Speaker A: If I'm collecting a tree or if I'm buying, all I have to do is get it to my truck. That's it. After that, the dingo can take it over.
[00:47:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:21] Speaker A: You know, and I can, you know, drag it onto the dingo. The dingo can bring it down. I can, you know.
[00:47:27] Speaker B: So that sounds like two pros to me.
[00:47:29] Speaker A: I mean, it is, but. Yeah, it is two pros, but, yeah, I got that. That was my first purchase when we got this house, partially because the property's so big.
[00:47:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:39] Speaker A: And, like, trying to roll a cart down and in there and on all the gravel, I knew that was going to be a nightmare. So I decided, yeah, I'd get a. And I knew I was going to be building a lot of stuff. So you can get all the attachments for that, like augers and trenchers and everything. So it's. It's really handy. But, yeah, it's escape steer makes. So when I was buying, I told my wife, it's like, you'll never have to help me move trees again. And she was like, oh, my gosh, that's amazing, because before with the big trees, I'd never, like, help me shuffle them somewhere or, like, make sure I don't jack something up. But.
[00:48:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I feel like you're a badass if you. If you have a skid steer and you bought it to move multi trees.
[00:48:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:22] Speaker B: That's really.
Yeah, I would like to get one now. Do the trees shake a lot? Do you have to be careful of. Of that?
[00:48:33] Speaker A: So with mine, they. It does, but the.
The dingo that I have, it's like a narrow track, and so it's pretty smooth.
[00:48:42] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:48:43] Speaker A: So I know some of the bigger, like, bigger kind of skid steers when you're trying to turn like, they're. They could. They move a lot.
[00:48:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:54] Speaker A: But that one. The one I have is pretty smooth.
[00:48:57] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:48:57] Speaker A: So sweet. Yeah.
[00:48:58] Speaker B: Sweet. That's very cool. Yeah. Someday I would like to get one.
[00:49:03] Speaker A: I mean, you, sir, I don't know. 10 to $15,000.
[00:49:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:08] Speaker A: I mean, that sounds like a good investment for you.
[00:49:12] Speaker B: Yeah, No, I probably will get one. Yeah. I have, like, the biggest. Well, not the biggest hydraulic car, but I have a pretty legit hydraulic car.
But even that. I mean, I just put a tree on a slab. I'll show you pictures later. But we weighed it. It was two.
Seven pounds dry.
[00:49:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:49:31] Speaker B: And I'm like, oh, yeah, I should.
It would be nice to not have to move these things around so much.
[00:49:39] Speaker A: Well, then you can build like a. You could build a stand that that slab sits on.
[00:49:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:45] Speaker A: You know, and have it, like, out of wood so it looks nice. And then that tree just lives on there. Yep. And if you need to move it, you just use it with your skid steer. But you have basically a. You build a platform for it that is just for that. That tree, and it just lives on that. So. Yeah.
[00:50:02] Speaker B: I appreciate the tips on the. The dingo and tips on how to sell your wife on getting it.
[00:50:07] Speaker A: Yeah, that helps.
[00:50:09] Speaker B: That's perfect.
[00:50:10] Speaker A: It helps.
[00:50:10] Speaker B: Awesome. You know, I was curious if we could go back a little bit. I know that you came up in Bonsai with Jerry Morris.
[00:50:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:50:22] Speaker B: And he's someone that I never met, but I see his name quite a bit. I talked to Will about him a little bit, and I also.
I have been somewhat interested in, like, rare conifers. And so I've seen his name pop up there.
[00:50:39] Speaker A: Oh, sure.
[00:50:41] Speaker B: Could you tell me a little bit more about him?
[00:50:43] Speaker A: Yeah. So he is. Has this very. He's a very interesting man. And so he passed away in 22.
But he did like landscape.
And so that was kind of like. That was his job. But he was in the army, and when he was in the army, he would make donuts for everyone. And he would make them. He could fit them over his arms. So, like, the guys in the trenches, he'd make them. And he would be. He would tell me he's, like, running across the field, and they wouldn't shoot at him. You know, maybe they did. But then he would go, like, down in these trenches in the Korean War. Korean War, maybe.
I forget. But then he would bring donuts to all the soldiers down there. So that's, like, part of what he did in the army. But he also when he was 11 or 12, his father broke his back.
And so they were living up in Morrison, which is, like, where Red Rocks is. Yeah, they were living up there. And so he quit school because he had to provide for the family because his father had had broken his back. So at 13, dropped out of school, and then he would go in the mountains and he would hunt and get deer and elk and bears and different things like that. And so that was him until maybe 16. I don't even. I don't even think he ever went back to. When it ever went back to school. So then he started getting into plants, and then he fell in love with, like, brooms, dwarf conifers. And so that's where, like, in the conifer societies. The Dwarf Conifer Society. Like, everybody knows Jerry because he's got.
I want to say, like, in my head, it's like, 200 different plants that he's named. I don't know if it's that many or not, but at the Denver Botanic Garden, there's a whole section of dwarf conifers that are all from Jerry. Wow. And so he would go find, like, there's sprif and ponderosas and limbers and all these things. He would find brooms up in trees, and then he would, like, get a shotgun and blow them out of the trees and then get the. All the foliage that came or the branch that he blew off, and then he would graph that, and then he would name it after different things and his kids and his wife and different things like that.
[00:53:06] Speaker B: So that's cool.
[00:53:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Jerry.
I was at a.
It closed now, but it was called Timberline Gardens, and it was right by Kong. And I would go over there, look, and there were all these spruce, like, dwarfs and pinion dwarfs and different things like that. And they were all, like, from Jerry. So. Yeah, he's really well known for the. For the dwarf. How long are you here for?
[00:53:31] Speaker B: Just till tomorrow.
[00:53:32] Speaker A: All right. Because I was gonna say if you could go to the Botanic Gardens. Yeah. You know, it's. It's there. The. There's a section there that just heard dwarf conifers. And those are all from. They're all from Jerry, so.
[00:53:44] Speaker B: Cool.
[00:53:45] Speaker A: Yeah. But, yeah, that's where, like, where he really got a name. And he would travel to, like, California and different areas to, like, go to different conferences and different things like that. And then, yeah, through his landscape company, he met this family, and he probably did landscaping. I'm making some of this up. I'm not sure, but my guess is at one Point. He did landscaping for this family up in Aspen. And knowing the family, my guess is they realized what they had in Jerry. So then they just hired him on full time and he sold his landscape company and then he just worked for them and built that mountain, went around and collected all these, like, unusual species of plants.
[00:54:32] Speaker B: He would collect, like full size trees and. And use them in his landscape company.
[00:54:38] Speaker A: Well, he would use them for that family in Aspen. He would, he, he would go and he collected some trees out of this private property. Spruces. He'd go in there, got permission, dug that. And then there were some other areas that he showed me where it was all like part of a mountain owned by a rancher. He's like, yep, I got permission from them. And then we'd pay them to get access to the mountain. And then we would dig, like, different ancient trees. You know, he called them the ancients.
But there are some huge ficus trees in Florida at Disney, Epcot center or Disney World, one of those two. And they weren't doing well, and so they called Jerry. Jerry went down there and he actually figured out, like, if you add a percentage of hydrogen peroxide to the water and then pour it on these ficus trees, like it would help oxygenate the water or kill whatever fungus was in there. Yeah, whatever the low percentage is of the peroxide. And he got any. Pulled these trees through. So there's some things like that where he got calls from all over.
[00:55:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:55:51] Speaker A: To come and try to help rehabilitate trees that were sick. Yeah.
[00:55:59] Speaker B: So that's so cool.
[00:56:00] Speaker A: It's pretty cool. Yeah. He was an amazing.
He was an amazing person. I loved him like, just like a father, you know, it's like I was very close with him, still close with his wife and.
But yeah, he's.
He was a legend. He's a legend, you know, and he was just a tough. A tough man.
[00:56:20] Speaker B: So, yeah, you know, I'm bummed because there's a documentary about him somewhere floating around online and for whatever reason I have only seen. It's like the promo vision promo video for the documentary, but it's like I'll have to find it and send it to you or show you, but I really want to watch the documentary. And I don't know if it. It was ever created or where you can watch it, but I'm. I think it'd be like I've. I've not. It's been out for a long time and I've really wanted to watch it, but I can't find it. I'LL show you the promo. I'll find the promo. I'll probably. I'll email it to you.
[00:57:02] Speaker A: Do you know who did it?
[00:57:03] Speaker B: I. I can't remember. Off top, it may have been like a rare Conifer society or something or other like that.
[00:57:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah, I would. I would be very interested in that and to see kind of. Yeah. See if we could track down.
[00:57:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:57:20] Speaker A: Where the full, where that full film is.
[00:57:22] Speaker B: Yes, I'll send it to you.
[00:57:23] Speaker A: All right.
[00:57:25] Speaker B: Regarding dwarf conifers, I do wonder if there's some application for bonsai. I guess I'm curious your thoughts. So for a long time I was like, convinced. Convinced we should be grafting dwarf pondo onto regular pondo.
[00:57:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:57:42] Speaker B: However, I don't know if that's such a good idea because I feel like a lot of times dwarf species are not as strong as the natural ones.
[00:57:50] Speaker A: Right.
[00:57:51] Speaker B: So it may just be a giant headache and result in, you know, too much. Too much failure to make it worthwhile.
[00:57:59] Speaker A: Yeah, they. I mean, they're slow growers too.
[00:58:02] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:58:03] Speaker A: I don't know. I.
So when I. When did you go to Kokofu this year?
[00:58:08] Speaker B: I did not. No.
[00:58:09] Speaker A: But like, so over there, some of the white pines.
Yeah. I forget what the species is, but they, they almost look like they were like a dwarf variety.
[00:58:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:58:20] Speaker A: You know, like Brevifolia, where it's like this teeny, like a really tight small white white pine. But there was, there were a few over there.
And I just wonder how long did it take those trees growing in the ground to get as big a trunks that they had because they were trees with just this tight foliage? I don't know. I've never tried it, to be honest, but I don't know. I think they're so. I think within like those dwarf varieties, there's some that are tighter and smaller and some that are a little bigger and looser, you know, so it's like. I think some of those maybe bigger varieties could be, I don't know, could be useful. You know, it'd be interesting to, to see. I don't know if like eventually does the, the stalk that you're. Or the Scion, like, does it. Just because it's slower growing, does it just kind of lose out on like that, the attachment or does it get pushed out? I don't, I don't long term how
[00:59:21] Speaker B: that works, but it's a lot of exposure, experimental. And if you have a badass Ponderosa, I could see why you wouldn't want to do that. Because you want to Create it into a badass bonsai. You don't want to waste 10 years learning that. Oh, hey, I shouldn't have done that. It didn't work out.
[00:59:37] Speaker A: Yeah. It's a big experiment, and I like, like, I like the game of trying to get. I had a tree and I lost it with the water, but I had a tree that was one of the first trees I ever collected. And I had it like this whole time. And it was in a small container for 12 years Ponderos, but it had like in two inch. Inch and a half needles, like maybe two inch needles, like a black pine or like it was small for ponderosa. So it's. For some of that. The game like that game is.
I do appreciate that game with ponderosas and Rockies and trying to get, like, good foliage on them because they can be challenging. Like that spruce or the juniper, like, right out in front of my. Yeah, well, you know, with the twisted. That's all twisty that we look at. That's a rocky.
[01:00:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:00:25] Speaker A: But that is very good foliage. The foliage of that is very good. And so I. When I wired that this winter, I took cuttings to see if I could get any of that to grow.
[01:00:35] Speaker B: So I was curious because I feel like I've tried to take Sierra cutting. They never have worked.
[01:00:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:00:42] Speaker B: Whereas Kishu and Itoagama. It's like, easy, easy.
[01:00:46] Speaker A: Yeah. You don't even have to plant them in anything.
[01:00:48] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:00:48] Speaker A: They just start throwing. Yeah.
[01:00:50] Speaker B: But for whatever reason, Sierra 0%, I could not get them. And I had a. In a greenhouse. I would miss them. I tried a bunch of rooting hormones. Couldn't get it to work. And so I was curious if you have had success yet with.
[01:01:04] Speaker A: Not yet. And I don't know. I don't know how we put them outside maybe yesterday or the day before. So we will know pretty quickly whether any of them took or not.
[01:01:13] Speaker B: Yeah, that's. It's cool. It's exciting. I'm glad that you try. I hope someone is successful.
[01:01:20] Speaker A: It would be. Yeah, it would be great. I know from everything I've heard too, and talking with different people, it's. Rocky's pretty hard. Sierra's hard.
Utahs are hard. So I think for whatever reason are native.
I've never tried western, so I don't know about western, but I think.
I don't know if you try to propagate western, Jerry, you know, but I think it's. It's harder for our native junipers to propagate them versus the.
Those Japanese species.
[01:01:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:01:51] Speaker A: For whatever Reason.
[01:01:52] Speaker B: For whatever reason. That's interesting. Although I'm pretty sure that Jerry Morris collected some varieties of Rocky Mountain juniper, which they sell in the dwarf conifer industry.
[01:02:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:02:05] Speaker B: And so if that. Like, how did he do that? Is he grafting them?
[01:02:10] Speaker A: He's grafting them. I think that's what he did for the most part. And then for some trees, he would find a broom, take the seeds and plant the seeds. And then from all those seeds, maybe out of a hundred seeds, you get one or two or five brooms. And so then he would go from seeds. So some were seeds, but most of it. Most of it, he was grafting.
Harold Sasaki, he likes grafting, too. So I know I would go over to Harold's, and Jerry would bring over. He's like, oh, Jerry was just here. There'd be all these branches. There were brooms of something, you know, and Harold's. Air grafting. Brisk cones or different things, you know, so.
[01:02:50] Speaker B: That's cool. Yeah, that's cool.
Are you. Do you have a lot of bristle cones or. A few.
[01:02:57] Speaker A: So I used to. And then I either, like, sold them or mostly sold them or I lost some with. I had the water issues, but I sold most of them. And then where I collected them, I just hadn't been back there, you know? So. Yeah, I think I have two. I have two at the moment. So. Sweet. Yeah, sweet.
[01:03:16] Speaker B: Do they grow pretty well for you, would you say?
[01:03:19] Speaker A: Bristlecons do. Bristlecones are very interesting because they bud back profusely, which is really for, like, as slow of a grower that they are. And even right now, like, trees that are outside Ponderosas are pushing. Lodge poles were pushing, like, two months ago. Limbers were pushing. The bristle cones are still.
They're not even, like, There's. You can tell they're waking up and, like, candles. Because they'll push candles, they'll start elongating, but it'll be June before, like, you start seeing needles on those. So they're like. They're slow here. They're so slow. They're. Yeah, they're slow, but they grow really well. They bud back really well.
And there were some bristlecones that I. I got. They were in tight pockets. I got them out, and it's like, oh, there's no roots on here. But you got them out, so you can't. You have to take them and do your best. So I put it. Them put, like, the trunks in pumice.
[01:04:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:04:20] Speaker A: Kept them very shaded and they didn't die. It's like, I don't know what's going on. Two years later they didn't die. I pulled them out and there were roots emerging from the trunk. Wow.
[01:04:28] Speaker B: So interesting.
[01:04:30] Speaker A: Yeah, it was pretty, it was pretty amazing that you know, I did not expect, I did not expect those trees, that tree to live. But it did.
[01:04:41] Speaker B: A hardy, fairly hardy tree.
[01:04:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:04:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:04:45] Speaker A: I mean I think too because like they hold needles for so long and they're so my guess is that not the callus but the cuticle on the needles is so thick that they're able to hold water in. So maybe that's like the. It was able to hold water in. It was able to still photosynthesize for so long, you know, that they were able to, to grow new roots in the inner umber.
[01:05:10] Speaker B: That would make sense.
[01:05:12] Speaker A: Whether that's true or not, that's all speculation.
[01:05:14] Speaker B: But that's cool. Yeah. I mean I, I think they, they're the longest living trees or things in the world.
[01:05:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:05:25] Speaker B: And I think that they out compete other plants in this in areas so they must be very hardy.
[01:05:35] Speaker A: Yeah. It's like some survival mechanism in there.
[01:05:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
That's great.
Going back, I was curious, how did the, how did you come up with the name first branch Bonsai.
[01:05:49] Speaker A: Yeah. So when, when I was trying to come up with a name for. Because before I did this I had a website started a website because I'd go up to the mountains and I'd find a tree and I was like, I don't, I don't necessarily want this but I bet someone else would. So like, oh, I could sell some trees online. And that's kind of how like I started. So before I started doing both side professionally, like people knew me as. More of people knew me as a collector.
[01:06:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:06:18] Speaker A: And so. But I was just trying to think of like what's.
What's an easy name that everyone would remember. And it's like everyone thinks like oh well, your first branch. And so that's kind of where that came from. It's like, yeah, everyone, all trees have like this first branch, you know.
[01:06:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:06:35] Speaker A: So it was something that everyone I figured would be able to associate with. So that's how, that's how I came up with it.
[01:06:44] Speaker B: So that's funny. I think I remember stumbling on your website back in the day before you were known as like a bonsai professional. And I didn't connect those two until now. So that's really cool.
Love it. I guess regarding earlier we were talking about environments that dwarf a tree.
Are you Aware of any other environments or have you ever heard about other environments or things that naturally dwarf trees?
[01:07:16] Speaker A: To me, environments mean like either stone. Right. Rock. Because the roots have nowhere to go. So they're naturally get dwarfed because their access to water and nutrients is very limited soil. Right. That can dwarf trees because even like in the desert, those trees are pretty old and they're living in like this sand or caliche with kind of dwarf them.
Also. Elevation, I think is one of the things that can dwarf a tree. You know. So when the trees. There's a place here, Mount Evans and I go up there every year. It's like a national park. So it's not for collecting trees. But I just like going up there and walking around. And you go up there and it's like 12, 13,000ft, you know. Or even at Windy Ridge where the bristlecones are like that's 12,000ft, I believe. And so it's like up there they're still like. So let's say May 1, they're still getting freeze. It's still possibility of getting snow.
And so they're like. Their growing season is very short, you know, because let's say we start June 1st and it's done by the end of August, you know, maybe middle of September.
I do know like bristlecones can. They'll photosynthesize at very low temperatures, you know. So that may be a way that they kind of extend their growing period. But yeah, I think, yeah. Stone like the ground elevation.
I don't know what else would stunt a tree. I mean too there's also like you go to the mountains and there's understory trees. So maybe amount of sunlight that they have access to could do it. But I don't know. Those are the only.
[01:09:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Part of why I like talking about it is because I feel like I want to encourage other people to collect trees.
And even I'm not even talking about like what we collect currently. But for example, like out in your workshop, I saw that cool cedar elm.
And I feel like there's so many different species that we're probably not even touching.
[01:09:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:09:29] Speaker B: And I would love to see people start collecting deciduous trees and whatever grows native in their environment.
But I feel like what they should be looking for is maybe the environment.
[01:09:42] Speaker A: Sure.
[01:09:42] Speaker B: More so than the actual trees.
[01:09:45] Speaker A: So where that cedar elm came from, it's in Texas and all. Like I have. I don't know how many. I have six or so maybe cedar elms.
But the guy that digs them, the in The. He digs them from a field, but there's cattle, there's boars, you know, so it's like the cattle eat themselves, deer eat that down.
I don't know if the boars eat them or not, but the boar, you know, wild boars in Texas just tear the crap out of everything. So. But yeah, like that tree. I've seen a lot of cedar elms, but the trees that, that Ken, his name's Ken Schindler. And the trees that he digs, they're almost like winged elms. You know, the branches have. I thought they were winged elms when I first saw them, but they're saying they're Texas cedar elms. They have a lot more. The trunks with the, like how thick the striations are. Yeah, those channels where the bark is running vertically.
Like it's, it's deep and I don't know, they just, they have a lot of character to them and they're really. They're beautiful trees. And their leaves are a little like they're coarse, but I don't care about that because the branching is coarse and the branching is like, is very odd in itself. So to me, like those little rougher textured leafs match that, you know, and so then trying to, like trying to get them small. Can you defoliate them multiple times? My guess is you can, but in the fall they're just like the most beautiful yellow color, you know, and they're just. I don't know. So. Yeah, I'm with you.
[01:11:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:11:12] Speaker A: And I love that. And Texas too. Like, Texas has like the ash junipers, which are great. There's Texas, you know, Texas has a bunch of. That's just Texas, you know, it's like, who knows about some of these, like Arizona or some of the. I know they have some like odd plants down there that are really interesting. I forget what they're. They're called. They almost look like they're not like baobad or whatever those are, but they're. It's like a succulent ish looking kind of tree. But yeah, I don't know someone, if someone can chime in and let you know what I'm talking about. But yeah, there's. In California where you are. It's. That is probably one of the most diverse, maybe the most diverse when it comes to plants in the world, you know, because you have like Southern California all the way up to Northern California. There are so many different microclimates in there. There's so many different. I mean, you got like the redwoods and, you know, it's like in the bristlecones and there's so many, like, odd plants in.
In that state. You know, it's just the diversity is unbelievable.
[01:12:19] Speaker B: Totally. And the reason redwood bonsai is a thing is because we have a Bob and a Zach shop that went out and started collecting them. Whereas before, I feel like, yeah, there were a few people that collected redwood, but not like Bob and Zach.
[01:12:34] Speaker A: Pygmy cypress.
[01:12:35] Speaker B: And pygmy cypress.
[01:12:36] Speaker A: I mean, come on. It's like that's in like a small location and those are. Yeah. They only grow in California in this one. You know, in that. In one area that I know. I think. I believe that's correct. But yeah.
[01:12:48] Speaker B: No, no, no, that is. That's what I've heard. Yeah. I think they're.
[01:12:52] Speaker A: They dug those. You know, they kind of made that a name and.
[01:12:55] Speaker B: Yeah. How many other types of trees are out there, though? You know? And we're like, what about on the east coast, all the deciduous trees that they have out there? Like, there could be some really cool opportunities. All the oaks.
[01:13:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:13:09] Speaker B: Over the place. Like, I'm just excited to see all that stuff and want to see those.
[01:13:15] Speaker A: Yeah. American beach. Like, I know Chris Springer.
[01:13:18] Speaker B: I love.
[01:13:18] Speaker A: I keep. I have. I have an American beach I bought from him. Sweet. And it's. It's cool. And I keep bugging him about like, Dick Moore, you know, because, like, be. I am. I love beach so much.
[01:13:29] Speaker B: And yeah.
[01:13:30] Speaker A: You know, it's like they're where he's getting them.
I don't know if, like, beavers are chewing them down or whatever, you know, but they're beat up. They're beat up tree. So it's like, all that stuff's pretty exciting. So. For sure, for sure.
[01:13:43] Speaker B: You know, walking around your garden, I was just so awestruck and impressed with some of your trees.
Is it tough being a bonsai professional and having to decide, like, am I selling this or am I keeping that?
[01:13:58] Speaker A: Sure.
Yeah. There are.
There's one tree, that short spruce that you saw in the box. No, it's in. It's like. Oh, yeah, like the dead one. The trunks, like the Jerry tree. The Jerry tree, yeah. So that is.
That is the only tree that is not for sale. Like, I have trees in my collection, but for those trees that sell them, they have. I mean, they just would have an I love you price.
You know, it's like I have a big spruce, that big spruce that's still in the greenhouse, and the ponderosa that I sold at PB I'd have someone interested, you know, just asking what those were. And I just.
I gave a number that I. I wouldn't regret, but I knew it was. It was a big ask for those two trees because I didn't. I really didn't want to sell them.
[01:14:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:14:50] Speaker A: You know, because I like those trees, and it is hard because, like, even small trees, I have some trees. I went to Home Depot and got Austrian black pines, and it's like Oregon emerald or something like that.
And the foliage is beautiful. And it's like $25 at the end of the year. It was a straight trunk, but it's like. We planted it at an angle and then wired it. And it's like. It's a nice.
It's a nice $25 tree, but it's a cool tree. So it's.
It is hard. I understand. Like, I had a student that was just here, and he stayed a few days after, and so he was like, I'm interested in this pot. I know you like this pot. And, you know, so he's like, yeah, it's a horrible business model to like, because I. I like the stuff too, but. Yeah, I do. I do. I have to sell trees. I have to sell stuff, and that's why I have it. But there are trees where. Where I've sold them, and I'll, like, take them up to the person's car and we'll pack it away as, like, I'll miss you. I'll miss you. You know, it is. Because.
Yeah, it's. Bonsai is such a.
It's a wonderful art form. And it's not like we make something and then we hang it on a wall and we just look at it whenever we're in a room or something. It's like, you're there daily. It evolves, like, yearly, you know, so it's always. You're having this interaction with it, you know, and so it is hard to say goodbye to those. And sometimes I can sell trees, and then I get to work on them too. You know, it's a client here or it's a client somewhere else that I go spend time with, you know, so that helps, too.
[01:16:33] Speaker B: That's cool.
[01:16:33] Speaker A: You know, where I can. It's like, yeah, I'll sell you this, but I. I get to work on it, you know, Or I will, so.
[01:16:39] Speaker B: Huh.
[01:16:40] Speaker A: But I don't know. It's. Yeah.
[01:16:43] Speaker B: Yeah. That's tough. That is. That would be tough.
[01:16:46] Speaker A: It is.
[01:16:47] Speaker B: I thought you were gonna say, there's some trees that I would never sell. I mean, beside. Outside of the one. Yeah, but that is tough. That is. Yeah, that is just.
[01:16:56] Speaker A: There's the one, but there are a few where it's like, it's going to hurt. It will hurt if you're going to buy this tree. Because I don't really want to sell
[01:17:03] Speaker B: it, you know, Makes total sense, I think, it seems like. I think a few bonsai professionals that I've spoken with, they have a similar model, basically, like, yeah, everything's kind of for sale, but, like, these trees, you know, it's way more than retail. Yeah, it's, you know, like, I don't want to sell that tree.
And that. That would be very, very tough.
[01:17:27] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. And the Jerry tree, like that Spruce, I waited 10 years to get it, you know, and I kept asking him, do you want to sell? Nope. Nope, nope, nope. And then finally, when Jerry, he wasn't doing well, and he was in the hospital, and his wife called, and she was like, some people are here and they want to buy this tree, and they're offering me this much. And I was like, they're lowballing you. And I told Jerry I would pay him this much. If you can get more than that, then sell them the tree. And she's like, well, I don't. I don't. Well, turn up. You can edit this part out. But she goes, why don't. Why don't you just come over and take it then? And so I was like, sure. I immediately I went over, I gave her a check, and I took the tree because I. I just waited so long for that tree, you know? So, yeah, it was one of the happiest days ever when I was, you know, able to finally purchase that tree because I waited so long. So that's. That's my one where it's.
[01:18:26] Speaker B: That's.
[01:18:27] Speaker A: There is no. No price on that tree. But two, I just got a. I bought a tree from Bill Valvanis. It's like, that's probably not for sale. I still have the sole ticket on it. When I bought it from him, it's like, no, I don't even want anyone to ask anything about that tree, because I want to build Valvanis tree, and I like bears, and I got both. So, yeah, that's. That. That tree's not for. It's not for sale.
[01:18:50] Speaker B: Yeah, very nice.
It's a beautiful story about the Jerry Morris tree, and I'm sure that's what he would have wanted.
Bonsai is interesting with our trees outlasting us.
And I feel like that's unique in a lot of ways to bonsai, and I feel like we should plan those things out. It's maybe something that we don't talk about enough.
It's kind of a sad subject to talk about. That's why I feel like it doesn't get talked about enough. But I feel like if we do honor. In order to honor these trees, like, we should talk about it.
[01:19:28] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, I mean, I have some people that have talked to me. It's like, if something happens to me, then will you, like, come get my tree or sell them and then give the family the money or figure that out? And then I've also done that with my trees is I've contacted a couple people. It's like, look, if something happens to me, I need you to come take the trees, sell them, do whatever, make sure Bridget doesn't have to deal with it.
[01:19:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:19:55] Speaker A: And then I did. I was like, the same thing with Bridget. I told her, if something happens, it's like, you can just sell the house, you know, and you don't need this house. You don't need that. You know, it's like.
[01:20:06] Speaker B: It's tough because I feel like the significant others, they want to, like. My wife is super sentimental, so I know she would try and hang on to my trees, but I don't think that's. Right. Take other things. You know, if I were to pass someone's thing for too long.
[01:20:22] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't think she'd try to hold on to any because they stressed her out too much. You know, that's.
[01:20:28] Speaker B: That's the way it should. I mean, you know, like, you don't want to put that responsibility, taking care of a bunch of expensive trees on your wife.
[01:20:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:20:36] Speaker B: So I totally get that.
[01:20:37] Speaker A: No, and I. I told her and I told. Yeah. So I have. But I think you're right. And so. Yeah. Because. Yeah, you don't want, like, some legacy trees, like, going by the wayside or getting neglected or dying or, you know, just. Because when.
When something bad happens and it's coming for all of us, you know, it's one of the last things you probably want to deal with is how do you get rid of or relocate or whatever, like, all these trees? So I think that's a good point that you're making, so.
[01:21:15] Speaker B: Most definitely. Most definitely. I've been big fan of you for a long time, and I think it's awesome to see what you're doing. I feel like we're very lucky to have you in the United States.
[01:21:25] Speaker A: Thank you.
[01:21:26] Speaker B: And you're doing some badass things, collecting some badass trees. I love that you're elevating the level of bonsai in the United States.
[01:21:35] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks.
[01:21:36] Speaker B: I really appreciate it.
[01:21:37] Speaker A: No, thank you. Yeah, I mean, too, like you doing a podcast, I know it's not easy. I know it takes a lot of time, but it helps us, too, you know, and it's helping the community and helping, you know, spread, you know, bonsai and getting people more aware of it and making it, you know, more accessible, you know, because there's not. I don't know, it's just. It's another avenue to introduce people to it. So, yeah, it. It helps us, too. You know, it helps the professionals, what you're doing. And I appreciate you like, appreciating my work, but you have a lot of very nice trees, too, so just.
[01:22:12] Speaker B: Thank you.
[01:22:13] Speaker A: You know, if we're gonna. Just to be realistic, so.
[01:22:18] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate that.
And, yeah, I. I want to see bonsai continue to be elevated by people like you and grow. I feel like bonsai is so. Such a niche. Wish it's in a niche, and it should be bigger, and it can be, and I think it will be over the next several years. But I also just want to see just, like, incredible trees that just blow me away.
And I think we're going to see that. So I'm super pumped to see that in the future.
[01:22:48] Speaker A: And there's more or less, you know, like, people finishing their apprenticeships and, you know, so that's like, people coming back. And so it's. I think all of that is. It's good, and it's like, competition is good, you know, it's like, it's competition, and that's good for all of us, you know, and having people coming back that are very good and that studied in Japan, it's. It's good, and it pushes. It pushes all of us, you know, So I. I do appreciate that. I don't. I don't know, Like, I don't back away from competition because I know it's. It helps make me better, too, so.
[01:23:23] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure.
[01:23:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:23:25] Speaker B: Cool. Well, thank you so much, Tata.
[01:23:26] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you,
[01:23:42] Speaker B: Sam.
