#43 Avram Dalton - Dalton Landscape

[00:00:00] Speaker A: To baby trees. The Black Pondo podcast. [00:00:14] Speaker B: Absolutely honored to have you on. I think I found you initially through two different ways. So the first was I saw Mike Shelley sent me a picture of a wall that you guys designed for him and built and I was just absolutely blown away by that. I first I thought it was a picture from Japan and then he told me that that was in his yard and I was just absolutely blown away. And then also my buddy Seth Nelson, I think on the podcast actually he was talking about the concept of shuhari and he was saying that you gave him a really cool breakdown on that concept and term and he just told me you were a very interesting person and that I should have you on at some point. So I think those two things really made me very interested in you and your business and I started following you guys on Instagram and I'm absolutely blown away by the high level work that you guys do. So it's, yeah, it's totally an honor to have you on. [00:01:20] Speaker A: Really appreciate all those kind words. Like I said before, I haven't ever done anything like this. So I'm excited to get to talk to you in a way because it's actually really interesting. Just in the past maybe year or so, I've kind of reached a point where with my peers and with people who work for me and with sort of my teachers, the, the discussion has kind of been a lot about sort of the philosophy of what we do and just all the things it takes to sort of build, build yourself up in order to become a competent craftsperson. And so I, it's kind of interesting that, that the universe kind of brought us together at this point because this has kind of been the max of just me starting to understand from a, like a much wider perspective sort of what, what it is that I, I do and where I've come from and the tradition that I've been very fortunate to participate in. So, yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you. [00:02:31] Speaker B: Awesome. Well, I love it and I'm really excited to chat and everything that you sent over to me was absolutely fascinating to me. I guess maybe a caveat for myself is I feel like the concepts that you are breaking down in the email that you sent to me were very deep and it's the kind of thing where almost need to go through it a couple times. So I'm, I'm excited to have this on to record so that I can go back and listen to it a few times as I feel like, you know, the things that you were saying were Just really, really resonated with me. At the same time, I feel like the more that I read them, the more that I go through, I think the more that I will get from them and the more that they will resonate with me. So, you know, I may say that's interesting. That's interesting. But I'm very excited to be able to go back and listen to this, like, multiple times. [00:03:33] Speaker A: I. I'm the same way often about these topics. In Japanese, they'll say okugafukai, which is kind of like, again, another hard to translate phrase. But it's sort of. It's a very deep world, and the valley goes way, way back. And so you really just want one pass, 100 passes, a thousand passes, sometimes, just never doesn't feel like enough. Certainly after about 16 years, for me, it doesn't feel like enough yet. Anyway. [00:04:05] Speaker B: Totally, totally awesome. Well, maybe could we start with having you give us just a broad overview on your business and kind of your back? Why don't we start with your business? [00:04:22] Speaker A: Sure. My company, such as it is, is called Dalton Landscape. And I took the name because my. My. My father contractor and he. He did. He did landscape, but he. He is kind of his company in a sense. And when I came back from working in Japan, I spent some time thinking about what to do as far as making a company and having a name. And while there's all these fun and. And cool Japanese words that kind of come to mind to use that you might do, I just thought, well, I'm kind of here because of all the people that came before me, so why sort of leave behind something that's what is the original part of my foundation? So I just went and asked my father if I could take over, and he was totally willing. He's very supportive in that sense. And so we've been building. We try to build gardens that are sort of appropriate to California climates, environments, architecture, and available materials, but use Japanese techniques, actual Japanese techniques, as much as possible. And even when it comes to how the material is approached. And a lot of times that means we have to grow our own material, grow our own trees, and source and prepare our own material. So we do a lot of sort of custom gardens. And then in addition to that, what we do is. How shall I say? When I was in high school, my mom showed me a newspaper clipping about bonsai and Japanese gardens in San Diego. And through that article I read, I learned about a man named Fred Miyahara. And I was able to meet him and try to see if I could Work with him. And he was gracious enough to let me come and help him with various basic tasks at his bowls, like garden. And he also does a lot of pruning of yard trees, specifically Japanese black pine. And so after a time I came to help him do that pruning and sort of his way of doing things. His approach, I think was very influenced by his father who was born in the United States but grew up in Japan. So they mostly only spoke Japanese at home. So Fred is definitely a very traditional minded person. And that was a huge influence on me and my thinking. So a lot of speaking to what we do now as a company is Fred retired a few years ago. So a lot of places that he took care of and pruned. Now me and my guys prune and try to continue his legacy. Caring for old specimen Japanese black pines. [00:07:41] Speaker B: That's great. And also love the. Love the name. I love that it's second generation now. Did your father do a lot of landscaping work as well? And was he into Japanese gardens or was it more American focused? [00:07:58] Speaker A: I think he just did what. Whatever work was available to whatever. Whatever was needed to get by. I think he. He always was really interested in just Japanese gardens and bonsai, but mostly it was just general landscape and general construction. Actually that kind of helped. Helped me a lot when I went to work in Japan for a Japanese garden construction company. Is just having a sort of a sense of what sort of the construction workers sort of mentality is and just being comfortable at job sites and being comfortable with hard labor and that just being kind of like not a surprise. I would say I'm very grateful for. And I'm also actually really grateful to Fred in that sense because he instilled a lot of sort of Japanese cultural ideas and concepts in me when I was a teenager and going into college. And he encouraged me to learn Japanese, not just to learn to speak Japanese, but to learn to read and write and to, you know, not. Not as a rejection of like my own country or culture, but to adopt the perspectives of people who were doing the kind of work and craft that I wanted to do because it's. It's now it just seems obvious to me that if you want to do really high level work that other people are doing that are. Is very impressive, it's probably a good idea to try to see it from the world from what their perspective is and sort of add that and hybridize that with your own. [00:09:46] Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. I hear a lot about Fred in the bonsai community, but I don't Know if I've interacted with him too much personally, but that's fantastic that he was a mentor to you and helped you get started with everything. [00:10:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:05] Speaker B: Yes. [00:10:05] Speaker A: I definitely, in so many ways, even in sort of personal ways and just sort of attitudes about life. I especially as like add years to my life. I start to start to see like, oh wait, that was actually what Fred was saying to me was a lot deeper and a lot more meaningful than when I first heard it from him, even even though I thought I was listening carefully. So, yeah, I would say that that's most of the reason I'm here is. Is. Is thanks to Fred. [00:10:35] Speaker B: Awesome. Awesome. So did you grow up in California? [00:10:41] Speaker A: Yes, I was born in San Diego. Born and raised. [00:10:45] Speaker B: Very nice. Okay. I was born in Santa Barbara, not too far away, but a bit north of Santa Barbara or excuse me, San Diego. San Diego is such a beautiful area. I absolutely love it there. [00:10:58] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, traveling in the last sort of decade to traveling for work part a good part of the year. It really. When I. Whenever I come back, I. Oh yeah, this, this. I really do like San Diego. It probably is just as a fact of it's. It's a place where you're born so your body's used to it. But I really do appreciate getting to be able to live and work here. [00:11:20] Speaker B: Absolutely. Great weather, great Mexican food by the beach. It's an awesome place. [00:11:28] Speaker A: So I mean, I won't say anything about the food. I don't want to start any fights. [00:11:36] Speaker B: Cool. Well, so how did you get into. And actually are you into bonsai? Is that. Does that play a big role in your life or not so much? [00:11:49] Speaker A: Well, again, through being mentored since my teen years by Fred. Just, just. That's kind of was the start was the majority of the work that he did was bonsai. And it. That I didn't necessarily do a lot of it like myself, like have my. My own collection. I was just trying to go to school and get by. But through Fred, Fred has a lot of connections with Japan and Japanese artists would come and do workshops at his house and so just I got to sort of come up in that world. I wouldn't say that I did help and do things tax like that, but more of that experience for me was just seeing what Japanese crafts people were like and realizing how cool just the whole vibe was and how serious they were about their work. And that was definitely a very formative experience. [00:12:54] Speaker B: Absolutely. So. And I want to be super respectful and I know you sent me some discussion regarding your Apprenticeship. And so I want to make sure that I am very respectful. I can edit this part out too. But uh, I would love to ask you about your apprenticeship and what that looked like. I guess I, I was curious like what initially led you to Japan and, and what time frame was that around? [00:13:26] Speaker A: What initially led me to Japan was Ma mainly just being, being really interested in, in bonsai in Japanese gardens, wanting to learn, learn more about craft and the culture and kind of again Fred pushing me to learn Japanese, which sort of led me to go to ucsd, University of California, San Diego. And from there I transferred to a university in Japan ostensibly just to study Japanese at a higher level and try to try to take, take classes at university level in, in Japanese. And that was, that was around 2005, 2006. And I, while I was, while I was in Japan, another in Japanese you call him senpai, like a sort of elder, a practitioner or somebody. I really look up to who's doing Japanese gardens in the United States and has been doing it for a long time. Named John Powell. Had a few years prior been the first non Japanese to do an internship at the Adachi Museum of Art, which has a very famous garden that surrounds it. And sort of through John Powell I was able to arrange an internship while I was going to university in Japan. So during the spring and summer break was able to go two times and it was for, for about a month each and sort of intern there, work, work on the crew with the gardeners and sort of experience what it was like. And at that point near the end I was like really excited to stay in Japan or I kind of had to come back to, to finish college. But at some point I wanted to go back and do that kind of work more long term. And what I was told by the gardeners at Adachi was, you know, if you just, if you come here, you're just gonna learn only sort of what we do here in a finished garden. It won't, you won't, there'll be some construction work, but you won't really get an idea of what it's like to build a garden from scratch because this place is complete and I mean it's a stunning garden. For anyone who knows about it, it's quite immaculate. So they recommended that I do what we call apprenticeship. But it's kind of interesting. Like they don't use the word apprenticeship in Japan. They call it shugyo and it refers to sort of what we would think of as like a traditional company's apprenticeship where you go and you live there and you live in the same room or house as the other, other workers, other apprentices. And they just, the, they just recommended that that's the, that would be the best path. And so when I, when I came back to the States, I, I, I told Fred that. And Fred, having a really huge network, was able to contact a few people and find a company that was looking, that was open to at that time, around 2007. Obviously there wasn't any reason to bring in someone from abroad into a traditional Japanese company. It was the work you do, you're going to private residences a lot, you're interacting with a lot of people. It's kind of like they can't hide you in the back room sort of a thing. So the expectations were really high. They were like, we're going to need, we're going to need to see that you have basic fluency, reading and writing, you know how to sort of understand the culture and behave. And through the, the power of Fred's networking connections, I was, I was able to get a meeting with the head of the company, a man named Suzuki Naoe, and for some reason he was open to having me come. And they started work on the visa for me. And about six months later I was in Japan. [00:17:54] Speaker B: Wow, that's great. How, how much time have you spent in Japan in total? [00:18:01] Speaker A: Total, if you put it all together, it's not very long. It's maybe just a little under four years, including college. And I was in, in shizuoka working for Mr. Suzuki from 2008 to 2010. [00:18:14] Speaker B: And [00:18:16] Speaker A: during that time it was the, obviously the 2008 financial crisis happened a few months after I arrived in Japan, maybe three or four months and it kind of didn't really reach Japan for maybe another year. So at that time the work was a lot of big projects building gardens for new hotels. Particularly a lot of times like in Japan, in sort of the sort of resort areas, they'll build these really extravagant members only hotels and of course they'll come with onsen and all kinds of gardens, gardens for each room, private gardens, but then sort of a large pond that sometimes surrounds the property. So that was the kind of work going on when I first started the first year and actually continued throughout. But it's after around about 2009, things started to drop off in Japan too. And one of the things that it was kind of where when you think something is like, oh no, this is not good, it's not working out, it's just sort of just wait a little bit because it's probably going to change. And the result of things sort of slowing down was that apprentices had to get sent out to other sort of the way, the way, the way that sort of traditional Japanese companies works. Once you work as an apprentice and you leave the company, you. It's sort of almost like you're a graduate student and then you go either back to your family company or people start their own company. And those. There's many preexisting graduates who had their own companies. And so the current apprentices at the time all kind of got sent off to different parts of Japan to. To fill the needs of those companies. Cause they had a need for workers when things were kind of slow in the Shizuoka area. So through that I got to travel all over and they sort of had two crews, the traveling crew and the maintenance crew. And I was put on the traveling crew, which means building. And we all lived together about five guys in a one ldk Japanese apartment, which if you've ever seen a. A one room Japanese apartment, it's like incre. It's barely, you could barely even call it a one room. It's almost like a hallway where everything's connected. [00:20:53] Speaker B: Wait, did you say five guys in one of those? [00:20:56] Speaker A: Oh yeah, five. [00:20:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:57] Speaker A: I mean sometimes it'd be more if there was like a. The. The. There's a lot of work at a certain stage of the construction, more people would come or if people were delivering trees far away, those, those people would, would stay the night before they went back. And so we'd all obviously Japanese. You'd sleep on the floor in futon and we just kind of line up next to each other about like maybe 8 inches away from like the futons would touch. So we, we'd all have touching futon all the way. And then, then Japan's a very vertically oriented hierarchy culture, especially in the traditional crafts. So obviously the, the higher people, they, they get to sleep back of the apartment where the air conditioning and the heater is. And then as you go down the totem pole, you're closer and closer to the door. And generally where the door is is also where the kitchen is. So a lot of times me and the fellow apprentices who are close to my age, we would be sleeping on the floor of the kitchen. [00:22:00] Speaker B: Geez. [00:22:01] Speaker A: And so, but it's like, it's not even. It's weird because you talk about these kind of things and it kind of gets into the realm of some telling some kind of a hardship story. But like it like I Loved every minute of it. It was the best because all I wanted really just spending time working with Fred at his bonsai garden, working with artists from Japan and sort of seeing, seeing that life and sort of slowly but surely being able to participate more and more in Japanese language conversations and sort of realize how much fun that is, you know, when we're all living together. Yeah, it's, it's, it's very strict and you are, you gotta be at work all the time. There's no, no off, it's always on. But it's, it's, it was, it was a lot. It was very enjoyable. So it was kind of, it's kind of fun to like, to reminisce about. Like when the. Mr. Suzuki, the, the oyakata was there because he, he wouldn't always be with the traveling construction. He would just be there at critical points when important visual elements and things like that, because he would have to go to other, other projects, is just kind of waking up in the morning like at 4:30 in the morning to him, like sort of stepping over me and my other fellow stone mate that was next to me because he would always go out for a walk and a smoke first thing in the morning. And that was kind of like the alarm clock. And now thinking about it now is like incredibly nostalgic. [00:23:42] Speaker B: Well, it's great that you have that mentality. It sounds pretty challenging to me, sleeping on the, on the ground. Just definitely as a someone that grew up in California. Oh, that's good, that's good. [00:23:55] Speaker A: You know, you still get a blanket on pillow and you know, I mean, you got it. The other thing is, is like, it's just not like you're not really the whole point of like the way, the tradition. Because it's sort of all the trades really like carpenters, plasterers, masons, landscape sort of garden builders. It's all like very much based on the way. A Buddhist temple apprenticeship would be particularly close to type, a type called Shugendo, which is kind of like a combination. It's a variety of Buddhism that's sort of a combination of Buddhism and Shintoism. But like in their world, it's like they want you to sort of get away from thinking about yourself as fast as possible. [00:24:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:45] Speaker A: And so you're sort of, you're thinking about the work, the people, the team and what needs to be done, what you need to do. There's really, there's really no time for like any sort of focus on this, on the self. And so you don't really. It Kind of takes you away from being concerned of like, you sort of your own. If it's like there's discomfort or, or suffering or pain, I mean, you're, it's definitely. You feel it, but it's, it's kind of, you know, some people might call it sort of cultish, sort of brainwashing, but I, I didn't feel that way at all. I just, I just think you just kind of leave. Leave sort of a lot of your own concerns and weaknesses behind in order to be able to be fully present in the work. [00:25:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I can see how that would be beneficial to make you focus on the craft, and I think it could absolutely accelerate the learning curve. So. Very cool. Interesting experience. [00:25:47] Speaker A: Well, yeah, they say, you know, to add to that like the, the sort of, you know, you could do, you could go and do any job, you could go to school, you could go to university. And there, there's a difference between if you just go and, and kind of show up to class, do what, what you need to do and come back home, versus if you go, you take on extra assignments, you, you, you, you, you write, you know, extra essays, you, you talk to professors, you do, you, you put everything sort of you have into it. And so it's kind of like that's a very key, key feature is, is the. They encourage you immediately to sort of put, put your whole self into it. So sincerity is a very prized attribute. [00:26:35] Speaker B: Absolutely. So would you tell me a little bit about the specialization or what type of work the company focused on, really? [00:26:47] Speaker A: Just kind of what all Japanese garden construction companies of the, of the time, of the era did. It sort of within Japanese gardens, there's a lot of specialties that sort of. You're also expected to, to learn and to acquire those skill sets. So in order to, to properly build a Japanese garden, you need to know, in addition to plants and pruning and things like that, you need to know carpentry, particularly teahouse carpentry works, what the features are, how the garden connects to the building. You need to understand masonry because there's a lot of stonework and paths and paving. And if you, for instance, do build a pond, there's a lot of masonry involved. And then you need to understand how sort of bamboo works and bamboo craft, because there's fences that are made out of bamboo. So it's kind of like a very broad spectrum of skills that you need to, to sort of pick up. And so it's, it's. There is obviously some companies that specialize, but I think the My boss really had this idea that he called almighty, that if you were a craftsman, if you were a shokunin, the, the goal was to become almighty and meaning that you could handle masonry, you could handle carpentry. Now we're not necessarily, we're not at like at the same level as like a temple carp or something like that, but you, you were able to work within all those different disciplines and you know, able to use a crane or drive a tractor or sort of understand the, the, the difference between certain types of tea house architecture. [00:28:46] Speaker B: Yeah. And now with your company and then also the company that you apprenticed at in Japan, I believe you divided Japanese gardening up into kind of two categories, one being building or creating and design, and then the, the, the latter stewardship, which I really like that you use the word stewardship as opposed to, I usually say maintenance. But I think stewardship is a much deeper, has a much deeper meaning and I think it's more appropriate for Japanese gardening. So I was curious currently and then previously, do you focus more on the initial design or more so after the fact or both? [00:29:33] Speaker A: I would say that's a, that's a hard question to answer because to answer directly would to be say, no, I don't do any of that. But to sort of. The longer answer is the sort of a traditional approach of sort of Japanese landscape construction doesn't really involve design. There's no cad. There's, there's, there's no like sort of plans that are, that are drawn up. There is sketches and drawings and, and sort of detailed layouts made for planning purposes. But a lot of the way the work is approached is sort of a referencing back to the tradition, to gardens that have already been built and, and famous gardeners of history. And so there's this, this, there's this long tradition of garden building for the last thousand years that's been documented. And everybody who sort of does that work in Japan has to study that and learn about it. And so everything you, you build is something that's sort of already existed before and been been handed down. It's just how do you adapt it to that particular site, that particular architecture, the available materials and sort of the overall goal of the client. But the deb. The gardens tradition has sort of categories of types of gardens. So you're almost like once you know what the architecture is, it kind of sort of sets up what the category of garden that's going to be built and then, then where it gets into what you might think of as design is each garden builder's preferences and approach this, this I guess you could almost call it like the school that they come from the lineage like their teacher, their teacher's teacher, they sort of follow a similar pattern. There's a little bit of DNA that gets passed down into every new generation. So you'll kind of be able to recognize sometimes you could look at people's work in Japan and not necessarily know them, but know where they apprentice, who their teacher is. So because it's that part there is a design element, but it really is a factor more of the, the, the larger sort of metadata, the location, the, the how the garden is going to be used, what the architecture is like and then what's, what's available, what materials are available and that kind of leads to. I mean this is like, you know, obviously like if you're going to build a big resort hotel, there's, there's got to be plans. The, the hotel builders has plans, was working off plans. So it's not to say that where I worked in Japan there, there was, there was no plans or details and stuff, but a lot of stuff of how everything is going to work out in the minutia in the details that are going to make it really impressive and pop and look cool is not going to really show up in a plan anyway. And, and a lot of people, even, even stonemasons, wall builders will say this when it comes to stones that it's. It's very unusual to draw exactly this, the shapes of the stones that you' because it kind of puts you. Puts you in a mindset of that's you have to do that like that even if you're not fully thinking in those terms, you kind of get that sort of sense of like, oh, it's got to be this. And so it narrows the vision and it doesn't open you up to the larger possibilities of what might be out there. When you go to the stone yard or when you go into the. The nursery or sometimes into the, into the mountains in the forest. Because we, a lot of times Japanese gardeners actually harvest trees from the mountains to bring down and using gardens. Usually companies will own their own mountain or a portion of a mountain where they're growing trees on rather, I mean also trees are purchased from nurseries, but it's more common that gardeners who have the companies that have the space will grow their own. But that's so cool when you do that, when you kind of go out and to seek out the materials. If you've drawn your plan too specifically, you might find those Materials, it might all work out, but the garden that gets put together as a result of that is often said to feel really stiff and sort of really by the numbers and sort of. There's compromises had to be made because it's like, well, this over here, the side of the stone, or this tree, this angle. Angle is really interesting, but we need to get it to fit the plan. So we're going to use it in this manner because that, that's what fits the plan. We're gonna, we're gonna plant it with. This is the front and it's gonna lean this way when in actuality that, that, that that tree or that stone may have a much more interesting face. And it's not really to say that that each things the gardens are just treated like an accumulation of, of nice elements. It's that everything has to sort of work together and support all the elements, support each other to create the space. And so if you just pick things that are like, oh, this is a really pretty stone, it sort of dominates the space and doesn't leave any room for any other elements to sort of fit in. Whereas if a tree is a little bit unusual or has some kind of funky bends to it and a stone is maybe cracked and missing a side or part of the corner, it's not, it doesn't look complete, that, that sort of incomplete, irregular. Would you call in Japanese a kusai, like a sort of your sort of personality in a way. If you put those, all those different kusai together, then there's like points of connection for them to fit. And then they kind of become one cohesive scene rather than just a bunch of nice rocks and nice trees all kind of laid out in a space. And that kind of, what that ultimately means is that the design is done through a reliance on what the Japanese call en or goen, and is best probably described as like threads that extend out throughout all the universe that connect all kinds of things to each other, people to people, people to objects, people to places. And it's kind of a sort of a. Almost like it's alive. Like it's those threads. New ones will come together, old ones might break. Some, some, some might become much thicker and stronger connections while, while others will weaken. But it's sort of that in that exists that connects. Everything in the universe is taken as fact. It's a matter of faith amongst sort of craftsman people. And so when you go out and you look for instance a stone for like maybe a stone composition or a [00:36:58] Speaker B: waterfall, [00:37:01] Speaker A: you know what size you need, you Kind of know what the context of the space you're going to be building, you know, how many you generally need based on the way it's sort of assembled, according to the tradition conditions, according to pre existing gardens that would like look really nice and more successful. So you have general ideas but there's no specificity. So that when you do encounter something and that's kind of really what in is, it's sort of an encounter. When you have that encounter you can be like, oh, well, I have no pre drawn conclusions. So this is really interesting. And that might pair really well with a tree that I just saw maybe about 30 meters back when I was walking up. And then sort of the details of design begin to really take shape at that point when you sort of have those, those fortuitous encounters. [00:37:54] Speaker B: Ah, this is very interesting to me and that all makes a lot of sense and I see why if you don't go out with such specific plans, it could be very advantageous. On the same side of that, I feel like a lot of Americans are probably so plan heavy and they just are used to the way that in the States like we have everything planned out. I'm curious what it's like working for your company currently and working with clients. I almost feel like you need to give them a talk ahead of time and then talk about plans. Is that typically how it works for you? [00:38:35] Speaker A: Yeah, yes, I, I suppose it does. A lot of times the people that reach out that want a garden, they already know sort of what they're either. They're either born in Japan or spend a lot of time there. They know what the gardens are like there and what they're supposed to be. So. And then they're also generally, especially if they're born in Japan, they're sort of aware of the cultural concepts and the approach in a lot of ways. And you can also just speak to them in Japanese and then it's kind of a one for one. So more of the question I get is like can you actually, can you really like you said that you could do this or you want to build these things, can you actually build those things like kind of as a, like almost like a sense of excitement from a client that's like, oh, well we just thought living in America we should just give up and we're not going to be able to have that kind of a fence or of a waterfall or whatever it might be. And it's like oh no, like we can, you know, that's what we want to build. Like we want to. That One that you like in Japan, that's. We'd like to approach that. Now, you can never obviously build an exact copy because, like I said, the sort of nature is providing. Nature's sort of our partner in all of this. So it's what's providing the material, and there's going to be irregularity and difference in it. So it's not that we're looking for the same exact stone, but there is sort of. Because of the tradition. The tradition kind of gives you an idea of what the ideal shapes for different types of stones are. And even within stones, they actually, because this tradition of construction is so long, they have categories and names for each various stone and its function in the garden. If it's a stone bridge, there'll be accompanying stones that sort of are spelled out already and exist in a tradition that you can reference back to. And there's an understanding of like, sort of what's the best way to use those stones together with a stone bridge. And the same goes for waterfalls, for tea gardens, for lanterns. So a lot of times it's just actually convincing them that, yes, we want to build exactly the thing that you want to have, and we're not going to compromise on it when that's not the case. There is sort of some educational aspect to it, but it's not that we're so wildly different from the way any other landscape company would work. I mean, there's a budget is established, there are general plans. We obviously have to plan for square footage and what's going to go in what area. It's more kind of in the details, or it's more have a plan, but so that. So that a budget could be arranged and we can sort of make preparations. But don't get too much into the details and leave some room for. In for the process of discovery, because it kind of boils down to the really almost incalculable amount of humility that the traditional craftspeople have towards the work and towards their partner in the building process, which is sort of nature, pretty much basically the mountains that it's like whatever you could come up with in your own mind because of all the life experience you've had and all the things you've seen and all the garden you've seen would probably be very impressive and interesting, but they sort of have the level of humility to know that no matter what they could comprehend what the mountain. The mountains could provide, what nature could provide will always be so much more spectacular. And so there's sort of a more of an Openness to going out into the mountains or into the, into the material yards and sort of letting the stone find you, letting the tree find you kind of a thing. [00:42:49] Speaker B: Very nice, you know, I guess. Would you talk to me a little bit more about Mr. Suzuki's approach to gardening and maybe his style or the school that he came from. [00:43:07] Speaker A: His approach was sort of a traditional approach combined with obviously everybody is a person of their time. He started out and sort of developed his business during the bubble times back in Japan in the 80s. And so there was a lot of big projects and a lot of sort of combining of the art world with the construction world. And also a lot of new materials were coming available in terms of tiles and metals and just a lot of sort of western influence at the time just because there was so much construction going on and all these new buildings were being built. And so there's probably an element of that influences work. I don't know that for one. I mean it's very hard to talk about like him and the things he did because it's almost like I don't think I could really do it justice because in some ways he was sort of ahead of his time and probably still ahead of even where we are now in his sort of ideas of combining different elements of the garden, sort of combining artistry and sort of modern art with elements in the garden. And it's also like a, it's also kind of taboo in trades in Japan world to, to talk too much about your apprenticeship in an open and public way like privately obviously with like people who work for me or just colleagues and stuff. You share your, your stories of, of where you're at and what you did and commiserate, but it's not something that a lot of people share publicly. You won see a lot of times people really pushing where, where they worked or what, what apprenticeship they did like on, on their websites or on their profile. It's, it's just really not done because you're just there for a set amount of time and whatever you do you might start to develop skills and, and, and and be given high level assignments to do stuff. But it's still within the environment of your, your, your teacher and, and, and his business and all the things that they've done to set that up. And so just the being able to participate in that work and doing that building and being able to learn from them is, is sort of, that's the, the goal in and of itself. And it's not treated like because it's apprenticeship. It's not a, it's not a job, it's not a education. So it's not treated like you would say you're sort of something you'd put on your resume. Like it. In the sense that you, this, you. You were here at this place and worked here is sort of, you know, an undeniable truth. But no one use it rarely is it used for, for sort of marketing or self promotion because it's just it because ultimately, you know, if you talk too much about like oh I. I worked for this person, I worked at this place and, and you make a big deal out of it. It's kind of like now they're, now whatever you do, good or bad, it's like it's going to reflect back on your teacher and like this is somebody who like you know, you, you live with shared meals with. Did basically did everything for you. Did. Gave you kind of your whole foundation for what you become as a craftsman in the future. And so I feel like that. And I think the general feeling is that you receive so much from them. They've taken so much responsibility on your behalf to sort of help guide you on the path and give you the opportunity that. To speak about them in any way. Even though people might understand like oh, you're not trying to use this for cloud or anything like that. It's still feels even now I feel like really guilty just talking to you like this much like it's like really, you know, and, and you know, the other thing is like he, he. They had. There's the company website but like you know, after, after he passed the, the just the website was taken down and there, there's not really anything out there like because he kind of had this sort of. Which Japanese call ichigo ichie, which is sort of like one time, one encounter where it's just like you know, each thing, the thing in and of itself, the experience, the meeting is what is important and what matters and every thing that happens is unique and will never happen again and is very precious. And so to sort of drag it out or to, to leave behind too much of a wake is sort of just these are all sort of kind of cultural principles that, that are very strong I think especially in the, in the world of the trades. So yeah, sorry, that's a real hard question to answer. [00:48:30] Speaker B: Well, I respect it very much so and it, it's so interesting. Like many things within Japanese culture interest me very much so. But I also just have a very Western mindset and a Western lens when I'm looking at all these things. And so that, that seems so different and so counter to what occurs in the United States at the same time. I very much respect it and I, I understand. And so I think it's, it's very interesting to learn about and I really appreciate you sharing that with us. [00:49:04] Speaker A: Well, the other thing too is, it's like, like I said before, they call, you know, their word for it is shugyo. And that's also what the monks and the temples do. And they say that sort of it, shugo. I think the best way to translate is a practice. And so like the apprenticeships kind of assumes like, oh, I went to this place or this company and I learned from this teacher and they taught me things and they were doing really high level work and they had all these skills. And now, you know, I now like have learned that too and I am a part of that lineage and like, that's okay. I'm not saying that that's the wrong way to go or the way to look at it, but more probably in the, in the trades in Japan, traditional building trades, it's more like you're doing shu gyo, you're doing a practice and it's, it's really your, your path. It's not about your, your, your, the company you work for or whatever. It's like, it's not, it's not like saying, oh, I did this and I was with them. It's more like what did you do and, and what sort of commitment do you have to continuing to develop yourself more? And so in, in that sense of, of practice, it's really not like, oh, you know, this went to this place and it was like 24 7, no time off and everything was really hard. It's like that the external things or the things that you do there, that's just, that's everyone just sees that as normal. That's like what we're here to build very high level gardens and we're here to work really, really hard. Like nothing is special about that. Like, it's supposed to be extreme and intense and there's no like, no credit should be, no glory should be reflected from that fact. That's the baseline. What's really supposed to happen is sort of a battle with yourself and with trying to develop and polish up, brush up who you are, how you think, how you interact with people, your perception and sort of your level of consideration and care towards your work and towards others. And so it's not. It's not. It is, yeah, it is definitely different. It's and so it's kind of the language that we have to talk about in English is like frustrating sometimes for me because I feel like I'm implying things that aren't true when I'm talking about it. So it is kind of strange. One thing I will say that like the one thing they tell you like right away is this, like to the new sort of apprentices and new hires is that, you know, you guys are like a bunch of newly harvested potatoes. And I don't know what they do with like potatoes. I haven't seen a potato farm in America. But like traditional, like when they harvest potatoes, they have a lot of dirt on them, right? So like you put them all in one big barrel of water together and then stir them all up and sort of all the potatoes bumping against each other and being tossed around in the tub of water. That friction washes off the dirt. And so it's not like you're enemies with fellow apprenticeships. There's a brotherhood, there's a fellowship, but you're supposed to sort of bounce off each other and have friction and have difficulty and sort of navigate that vertically oriented hierarchy and sort of understand what it means to be considerate of others. And when you're like sleeping right next to people and using the same five, six guys are using the same bathroom and cooking meals and stuff and doing everything together, like it becomes immediately aware how much or how little you are being considerate of others. It doesn't take long at all. [00:53:02] Speaker B: Yeah, that's such a interesting story about the potatoes. And I have seen apprentices not get along in the bonsai world when they are apprenticing in Japan. I've heard stories and you talking about that there needs to be a little bit of friction and it's somewhat natural. I think that totally makes sense to me and is very interesting that you told that story. So thank you so much. I appreciate that. [00:53:29] Speaker A: Oh, sure. I have another one. The. The. A lot, A lot of times there's. People would put. There were people would come to apply and they would ask, you know, if they could not have to live with everybody, if they could go to an apartment. And they. Those people would always be turned away because the sort of. The core idea of what they call sumikomi, which is living together, is that when you're. When you're sort of right on top of each other, you have to be really on point with all your stuff, where you keep your stuff, what you do, your hygiene, how you treat things. So. And then you just have to have a Lot of consideration for other people. And if you commute and people that were like, maybe many years experienced in the company or people that had gotten married were obviously allowed to go and have their own apartments after a time. But the young people that have just started all have to have this together, living together experience. One, because you're going to have to do it when you travel for a job far away. But two, because it's sort of. That's the thing that develops your sensibility, not just to other people, but then when you're working, you're more sensitive to the. The materials, the space, how to organize your tools, how to set up materials. And. And so this, when you're. When someone's not living in that 247 environment, you're with the team when you're at work, but when you kind of go back, you're back with yourself and sort of your own thinking. And they see that as like a major hindrance towards progression in sort of the. In the craftsman trajectory. [00:55:15] Speaker B: Gotcha. Gotcha. Interesting. What was it like being a foreigner over there? And did you speak fluent Japanese? And do you speak fluent Japanese? [00:55:28] Speaker A: I don't feel like I speak fluent Japanese. I. Various tests have told me I do, but I still don't feel like I do. The. When I. When I. Fred. Fred was really, in a very good way, strict about needing to speak Japanese well and to understand Japanese culture. And so I got a lot of that before ever even going to university. And I think that there was. There was an element of when you go and you start to learn and pick up the language and you go to school there, and it's like, it. You do start to feel like, oh, okay, I'm taking classes Japanese, I'm not speaking English. Majority of my time is in this world. And I'm starting now to get comfortable and things like that. But that's like the civilian world, in a way, is it's not the sort of traditional craftsman world. Like, that's a whole separate culture. So really, to the extent that I could read and write and speak Japanese was actually really became a really big problem for me, because when you write emails back and forth, you develop a rapport. There's this sort of assumption that, like, oh, this person understands Japanese, so therefore he understands our culture. Just like somebody who's grown up here. And then in addition to that, somebody who's. Who's spent time in. In the trades and in that sort of subculture. And so when you actually get there and it turns out you might have some. Some relatively Good language abilities. But the, the cultural understanding, especially the really deep cultural understanding isn't fully caught up yet. And you do make mistakes or, or just you just out of ignorance, not really kind of get the nuances because there's so much, so much in Japanese language that's actually never is unsaid and so much meta information that when you kind of do botch something and step on your own foot, it's, it's, it's even worse in the perception because it's like, well, but, but you, you, you, you. You spoke so fluently. Like you should know better. And so like you get the, the added, the added count, the added charge to. On your conviction of like, not only did you make this mistake, but like we expected that you knew better. I mean, you're able to talk about it, you know, so clearly. And so that, that actually like dawned on me later on, like, oh, you maybe don't want to speak too well because you start to set up expectations that are really unmeatable. [00:58:25] Speaker B: Gotcha. Gotcha. I was wondering. [00:58:28] Speaker A: So now I say I. Now I'm sorry. Now I say I. I'm not very good at Japanese at all. [00:58:35] Speaker B: Oh boy. [00:58:36] Speaker A: I don't. I definitely. I, I don't like to. It. It feels awkward. So even when people, maybe Japanese people, if they come and speak to me in English first, then I always reply back, I never until the very last moment when I absolutely have to, then I, I'll bring it out. But like I'm, I'm very cautious. [00:58:57] Speaker B: Yeah. So you studied it in university? Yes. Very nice. [00:59:03] Speaker A: But I would say more than you, you know, more than university. Like the real, the obviously being living 247 with a bunch of guys your own age is really like where you really actually can because there's just so much stuff that it would never show up in a textbook and would never. And then also because it's sort of all these people are coming to apprentice there. They're all coming from all over Japan, so they're speaking all these different dialects. So there's just so much nuance that you pick up and so on. I think university is good for developing a foundation or any kind of school. Obviously the foundation is the most critical, but it's kind of out there in the ocean in the rough waves, getting tossed about is the really where it, I think, takes form. Sort of your abilities come into bloom, so to speak. [00:59:58] Speaker B: Totally makes sense. Would you tell me more about your current company and what you guys, what kind of work that you do? Would you elaborate more? There [01:00:12] Speaker A: Currently, we, as I said before, divide our time between taking care of existing gardens, doing the aesthetic pruning of mainly pines and maples and some other conifers. And the rest of our year is building gardens either here in San Diego or traveling to the client's residence to build. One project that we've been working on for a real long time is in just south of Dallas, Texas. It's a really large property that has had a bass pond on it. And the owner wanted to convert the bass pond into more of a pond you might find in a Japanese garden. And the closest equivalent would be the pond at Nijo Castle in Kyoto. And so it's sort of a pond, stone edge and waterfall setup inspired by that castle garden. And amongst. And in addition to that, there's other gardens on the estate, there's tea gardens, a few of those we've built. And all of that actually came together in 2012 when again, the. The person who helped me get an internship at Adachi Museum of Art, John Powell, who's a Japanese garden builder in Texas, but he also travels all over to work. Pardon me one second. [01:01:51] Speaker B: No worries. [01:01:53] Speaker A: Where was I? Oh, yeah. [01:01:56] Speaker B: So [01:01:58] Speaker A: John Powell, who builds gardens in Texas and really all over the US Was doing a garden with a master tea garden builder from Kyushu, Japan, named Hiroaki eto. And my friend John encouraged me to go and meet with ETO san because I just happened to be back in Japan at the time. And at that time I was really thinking of like, oh, I think I want to just move back to Japan and work in the landscape industry and keep doing more of that. Because I really, I really just kind of missed. I missed the camaraderie. I missed kind of like it's always a lot more fun on the job site when everyone's using Japanese, because the thing you're doing is sort of grow something that's grown out of Japanese culture. So it's like kind of. It just. Everything just flows so much better. And at that time, he, John knew that I was gonna be in Japan. He said, hey, I just got done building a garden in Texas with Mr. Eto. You know, he's real interesting guy. You should, you should check him out and I can, I can introduce you. And through his introduction, I was able to go to kyushu, visit with Mr. Eto and talk. And his son also is in the business, and his son apprenticed in Kanagawa, which is next to Shizuoka, with a gardener builder named Mr. Honkawa. And so we're kind of similar in age and Although I had never met before, word kind of travels fast when there's a foreigner working in landscape construction. And so he had heard of me and he knew the company that I worked for because the company I worked for had sort of a reputation of being, I guess what even at the time people thought was more extreme, more of a special task force kind of Japanese garden building crew that had a, took a lot of, I think the, the company I worked for had a lot of references to French cooking and sort of French culinary masters and sort of the, the Michelin star model. So they're, they're the whole time and experience that I had in Cheese Orchid did, did later on, like watching TV shows and finding out about what sort of those high level kitchens are like, it had a lot of those same attributes. And so Mr. Eto and his son Toshi had heard of me and heard that a place where I had worked and they were going to do more projects at this place that I mentioned in Texas that we've been going to for the last 12 years or so. And, and they said would you come and help us? We could use somebody to handle sort of the how to bridge Japanese techniques with American equipment and tools and, and some interpreting and things like that. And so I went and we, I was able to work with, with John Powell was also on that project and Mr. Eto and his son were there and a couple other people, kind of various people in the garden world involved and we had a blast. It was great. And it was right at the time where it was, you know, we need to kind of renew Mr. Eto's visa and make sure, you know, he's here working in a way that's 100% above board. And we talked more and said, well, like let's, let's, you know, borrow some money and apply for another visa and see what other possibilities are out there. And we did and somehow it all worked out. And since then I've been pretty much half the year, a little less maybe for the last 12 years traveling to different projects for Mr. Eto and basically being his right, right hand man and interpreter. So I've kind of like put my own garden building on, on sort of the back burner when there's projects with him available because it's just, it's so much, it's so much fun to get to work with him and there's so much to, to learn and I feel like it's the, you know, whether there'll be time for me to build more of my own garden which I do. I still, I. We definitely do a lot of our own projects. But I realized that there's sort of not so many really, really high level craftsmen that have seen this Showa era, like 60s, 70s, how, what Kyoto was like, what, what the, what the trades were like back then. And Etosa is one of those rare people who is both trained in tea garden construction, in pond construction, in temple garden construction, kind of just sort of the whole gambit of all the types of gardens there are to be built in this tradition. And he sort of has the sensibility of that past era which really there just aren't, there isn't really anyone else still active doing it. So while he's active and, and wants me to work for him, I've kind of committed myself to work with him as much as possible to try to just absorb everything I can from him. And I've been a real privilege these last 12 years. I really can't soak up enough. Every time we work together, there's always some new aha moment of, of just like, wow, that's really interesting. So. [01:08:22] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it sounds like we're really lucky to have Both you and Mr. Eto focusing here in the U.S. one, one question. Do you refer to it as Japanese gardening, Japanese landscape gardening, or is there a term, is there a term in Japan that they use and what do you usually refer to it as? [01:08:45] Speaker A: Well, I mean as you might expect in Japan, it's, it's just, it's just landscaping. [01:08:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:52] Speaker A: Landscape gardening. Like it, yeah, it's kind of interesting because it only becomes Japanese gardening once you leave Japan. Makes sense. In a sense there are no Japanese gardens in Japan. [01:09:03] Speaker B: There's just gardens. Yeah. [01:09:05] Speaker A: And, and it's kind of, but, but within that if you were really to split hairs and it's actually interesting to look at the, the, the language aspect of it when, when obviously Japan encountered the, the rest of the world and then had to like, oh, how do we talk about ourselves as different from, separate from everybody else? And, and like how are we a singular sort of cohesive culture and country? They started to have to rename things or categorize things differently. And so, and also because you know, they started to build Western buildings and architecture in Japan and with that Western type landscapes. So they, they usually the way they delineate in the languages is the word wa for Japanese and yo for the west, for Europe and America. And so a lot of times like they'll the term, one of the terms is wa. No niwa, niwa, just meaning garden. So Like. And the wa comes from the. The old word for Japan was. Was yamato. So it's. It's the same character that people associate with harmony. But I feel like the harmony is. Has all these sort of different meanings to us in English. Their idea of. Of harmony seems to me to be a little bit different. It's not in the sense of, like, everything's peaceful and everything gets along and it feels good because you kind of There. There is no harmony without some. Without things coming together and sort of a sense of like what we might think of as a sort of a sacrifice or sort of sublimating oneself to. To a greater whole. But, like, that sort of is absolutely essential because it's almost like your body has organs and you have a liver. The liver is the liver, and nothing else can be the liver. Only the liver can be the liver. But the liver has to exist and [01:11:19] Speaker B: work [01:11:21] Speaker A: in harmony in a cohesive effort with all the rest of the organs. So it's a sense of a piece of a greater whole, while it is still its distinct self. So in the sense of, like, Japanese gardens, like, it's not really like where we might have Western gardens, where there's a big fountain or there's a big pond full of koi, or there's some kind of statue, and that's like, the thing. And the garden is built around the thing. Or it's just. Even if there isn't one focal point, there's this tree, and it has a tag on it, and it's this tree, and it's kind of like a botanical garden. And so it's like an assortment of these sort of green things. And wa. No kind of suggests that the garden itself is a space that's been harmonized. And so all the stones, the trees, the paths, the ground cover, the bushes, the building, the path you take to go through it is all harmonized with everything else in the sense that there's no. Like. There may be one key feature, key element, but in the sense it's mostly a collaboration of many, like, supporting characters. And each of these things are sort of supporting each other and feeding off each other and creating connections that then form the space. And that's kind of. That was the other. That was this English name for the company I worked in Shizuoka was called Spacecraft. And that's kind of really what it is. You're crafting the space. All the material, the pieces, the lines, the spaces that they frame and establish and sort of lock in is what you're experiencing. That's the stage. And so it's, it's kind of not so different from how we would think it here. And especially those ideas I think are more common now in the English world. So I'm not saying anything that's a revelation. But I think the sort of, the commitment that garden builders in Japan have to having things harmonize with each other and really understanding that sometimes like the main stone, you'll see like a stone arrangement and there'll be one big stone standing and maybe some others, but they're sort of stepping down in size as you sort of move out. Is those types of stones. I don't know what's going on. Pardon me, Sorry to. Can we take a quick. [01:14:09] Speaker B: Absolutely. I'm going to go use the restroom and I'll be, I'll be right back. [01:14:13] Speaker A: Thank you. [01:14:15] Speaker B: Awesome. So we are back. I kind of forget exactly where we were. If, if we forget, I could definitely ask you another question. [01:14:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I also kind of forget. I think, I think, I think I was mostly forgotten. I feel like, I feel like, I feel like I'm just kind of droning on, talking about random things, barely answering your questions. [01:14:39] Speaker B: Sorry about that. You are doing fantastic. You know, one, one thing that I'm really curious about is in bonsai, there's a lot of debate on what is the goal with bonsai. Are we trying to just create naturally miniaturized versions of the. What's out in the natural environment? Trees within the natural environment? Are we or, or are we doing something else? I guess my question with landscape gardening in Japan, I'm curious what the goal is and not only what the goal is, but where does landscaping, Japanese gardens, where do they draw their inspiration from? Is it generally what is out in the mountains and what is in the natural environment? Is that generally what you're modeling things after, but just creating a highly refined version of what you see out in the natural environment? [01:15:41] Speaker A: Well, I would say that obviously Japan is a very old society, very old culture with a very long history. So there's already a lot of pre established precedent, a tradition, if you will. So there's all through the different periods of history, there's been different types of architecture and accompanying that, different types of gardens. Many of those still exist to this day. So that history, that tradition is point of reference that everyone is expected to study and know. And you're expected to visit all these gardens and to sort of understand the story behind them and where they fit within Japanese history. And so those reference points sort of form the basis for what is built. So there's no sense that we just are going to go out and copy nature just as. As it is. It's all within the context of, of the tradition and what's, what's come before. And there's sort of two terms in Japanese that really illustrate that idea really well. And, and the first one is called honka. H O N K a and honka refers to sort of the original version or the original time a certain thing was, was built, was sort of came onto the scene. And that might be a type of a bamboo fence that's put together in a certain way with certain dimensions. That could be a stone basin, a water basin, how it's carved, what its measurements are, how it's used, where it's located within the garden, or a type of arranging stones. So a lot of times when some, someone's looking at like a lantern or a basin or they'll ask the question, oh, is this, is this honka? Or is it the sort of. The other term, which is called kuzushi? K U Z U S H I which is sort of describes an improvisation or some kind of evolution of that original honka. And kuzushi literally means to sort of break down. And so it's not that exact original form, it's a variant of that form. But even though that's like, kuzushi is like you coming up with a new thing, a new spin on it, other people have already come up with their spin on all the honka that have previously exist. So even that is something that's part of the tradition that you reference. And when you get more into kuzushi, like there is some freedom and it could be unique, but it always has to reference back to its foundation. Nothing is completely disconnected in this sort of new invention of an idea. It all somehow has a DNA that can be traced back. So that's not to say that nature isn't the inspiration for gardens. And what's done it certainly, you know, rivers and waterfalls and the way trees grow, the way, the way red pines might grow on the mountaintop and sort of have a windswept appearance. Like all those are sort of scenes in nature. And then you kind of look at that like, what kind of garden is this? Is this a temple garden? And where is it? Is it in the entrance or is it in the, in the abbotts near the abbot's quarters? That then that sort of establishes, like, okay, what kind of things are appropriate here? What kind of scenes do we want to evoke? And of course, a lot of that just becomes sort of what, what's what scenery people in Japan throughout history have encountered in their daily lives or in some cases a lot with, with temple gardens. It's this sort of scenery that the monks saw when they traveled to China because obviously there was a time where China was, where it was at to go and learn Buddhism, where sort of where Zen monks went to study and then bring that, that, those learnings back to Japan. And on those travels, you know, they would, they would go across the sea, see rugged islands coming up out of the water with forests of pines scattered about on them and sort of those things would then show up in paintings on scrolls and then that motif would then be replicated in a garden with gravel as the ocean and rock arrangements, as these islands that they might have seen from the ship as they were making the crossing. And then there's a whole tradition within the stories of Buddhism about locations and places. And so there's elements in the garden that refer to these, these places in nature, these mountains that may or may not exist, that sort of evoke a certain feeling or a look. And so a lot of inspiration is taken from that. [01:21:20] Speaker B: Ah, I appreciate the breakdown. Thank you very much. And that all makes sense regarding the tradition of Japanese gardening. And I do feel like there's something about landscape gardening in Japan that just feels a lot more natural. And personally I like spending time up in the mountains. Like I go to the Sierra pretty frequently. And there's just something that seems, well, I guess when I'm up in the mountains, it seems like I'm almost looking at Japanese garden and gardens sometimes, like Japanese gardens are a lot more refined and I think that they have figured out how to make things look better aesthetically. However, it's still like, just has more of a natural like mountain feel to me compared to a lot of Western gardens that I've seen. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. [01:22:18] Speaker A: I think there's, there's a, there's a principle of, of, you know, using materials that are locally available to you. And so when you're doing that, I mean you're, you're collecting that from, from, from a mountain somewhere. Somewhere that's a, you know, not, not property owned by a person, especially traditionally. Now obviously there's, they're, you know, all turned into national parks and people are just willy nilly taking things out of the mountains. But private land, there's still trees are harvested materials, stones, moss is taken from there. And as you know, when you're kind of in the mountains, obviously it's not on irrigation and it's more exposed to the elements. So like a lot of your trees will not necessarily be stunted, but they'll be definitely taking on a form that been impose on it by the conditions. The pines might be a little more sparse, they're cleaned out. And so like when we work on the pines in the garden, a lot of times what we're doing is reducing the foliage mass and thinning it out, making it look a lot more lacier. And that's kind of like what you would encounter in conifers in the mountains already. They're just living that life as it is. They don't have the, the sort of luxury to carry too much foliage. And another part of that is actually in the languages itself, the ideal sort of for a tea garden. Because tea gardens are kind of the most natural type of category of gardens in Japan. [01:24:03] Speaker B: Can you. So sorry to interrupt, but could you give me a breakdown? What is a tea garden exactly? Is that just a garden? It's a style of garden. And was it initially designed to walk around and drink tea while you enjoy the garden? [01:24:19] Speaker A: Tea garden in Japan would be called roji, which means literally a dew covered path. And it's just the space that surrounds the building, the tea house. A lot of times the tea rooms are part of a larger estate and it's the sort of space that you go and use when there's a tea gathering. So a lot of times they use the word tea ceremony, but it's kind of, it kind of suggests certain things that it's not really, really the, the actual tea as it's, as it's practiced is a gathering. And it's usually about three to four hours long. And there's, there's of course very ritualistic in a sense that the, there's a place that you, that all the guests gather before then entering the garden. You walk through the garden to a resting spot called the machiaio. It's kind of like a bench with a roof on it where the guests sit and wait to be called into the tea room by the host. And so the garden is sort of that, that space that, you know, you, you don't want to just show up and walk right into the tea room. And I was like, all right, let's drink tea. It's, it's a place to, to slow yourself down, to achieve the sort of mental state that is required to participate in a tea gathering. Because as you might know, tea gathering, you're doing it in, in Seiza, sitting on your knees, the whole time. And obviously the tea utensils can be very expensive, so they have to be handled very delicately. Also, there's a lot of important manners to observe and rituals within the gathering itself. It's not really just tea. A whole entire meal is served and tea is served twice. There's an intermission in the middle. And so the tea garden serves as the space for the intermission, but mainly it serves as a psychological preparation space before you're about to engage in a tea gathering. And it kind of, it also allows you to sort of depart the everyday world and sort of engage in this kind of, sort of very ritualized, very precise experience that, that really every guest, not just the host, is doing thing, but every, every guest has a role to play in the gathering on some level. And one of the things in a lot of what tea culture as it is today sort of has a lot of inspiration in Buddhist practice and temple practice in that there's not a lot of talking. And so there's many, many elements in the tea garden that are, that are visual or they're sounds that come from elements in the garden itself that act as cues to tell the guests when to do certain things at certain times and when certain rituals are about to begin and end. So it's sort of that space that's transitional to actually going to have a bowl of tea. [01:27:55] Speaker B: Very nice, very nice. [01:27:56] Speaker A: So you wouldn't drink in the tea garden. You wouldn't do anything that. It's just the only place you stop and stay is the machiai. And then you'll wait for the host to come. And a lot of times it's the host's assistant because the host is usually pretty busy. And they'll put a bucket of fresh water in the basin in the scuba, which is there for purifying oneself before entering the, the tea room. And so that sound indicates that, okay, you can stand and start to proceed deeper into the tea garden. And sometimes it's common for the host to come out and greet the guests at what's called a middle gate. And because it's a very hierarchical system, there's a main guest, a first guest, and then second guest, and then sort of the final guest. And so each of those have sort of, of names and are categorized and each person's actions is, is different based on what, which guests they are. And so their, their roles are changed because of that. [01:29:02] Speaker B: That's deep. [01:29:04] Speaker A: It gets, it gets way deeper because it's like, I mean, even within, even with so the tea ceremony, like they, they'll Say, and this is true in and temples, they'll say that in everything there is equality. And it's kind of. For me, it was an interesting thing that I talked to Etosan about this a long time ago, was like, we say that in t, that everything is. The core value is equality. But there's a first guest and a second guest and a third guess and a last guest. And so that implies a hierarchy. And the first guest gets to drink the tea first and they are afforded a better position in terms of sitting closer to the tokonoma so that they can view the scroll and the flower arrangement that's put out. And I was like, this seems like a contradiction. And it's Etosan very kindly, he loves to talk about tea. He's also a teacher of tea. So if you bring up anything to do with tea guards, tea gatherings, he will talk for hours. And the way he pointed out is that, yes, there is equality, but everybody is different in that everybody's experience level is going to be slightly different. And the first guest, they might sit in a more privileged position and get to drink first, but they have a lot of work to do. There's a lot of things in terms of the conversations that you have, they're sort of preset conversations with the host and the guests in order to give cues for when something should be served, when the food should be served, the entire flow of the tea gathering. So usually the most experienced person, sometimes more experienced than the host, would be the main guest. And so obviously their role and their burden is heavier. So there is a sort of hierarchy that is naturally created based on that, but sort of the intrinsic value of every participant and what Japanese call omoyari, which is thoughtfulness or consideration, is that is equally shared amongst everybody. And, and also like in our sort of, maybe more looking at the past from our current perspective and value system, like our idea of equality is a little bit different in the sense that a lot of the wabicha, the T as it's known now, was developed at a time where there was a very clear class system of the warrior class, the, the far, the farmers, the, the agriculture, the artisans, and then, and then the, the people doing sort of the salesman, the people doing business. And, and in that classic, I mean, the warriors, you know, they, they pretty much unless somebody was under some kind of protection, they could kind of kill any random person on the street and life was very cheap. So in the sense that when you enter the tea room, no one is allowed to carry their sword, and sword is the ultimate symbol of status and rank. And so their sort of standard for equality is much different than probably ours is probably a lot more sensitive than they might have been. But the sense of equality in terms of equal consideration to all human beings is. Is constant throughout. So I guess getting back to tea gardens, to your question about how it sort of incorporates nature, one way that they'll refer to that type of garden in Japanese is a phrase called shichu no sankyo, which is a mountain existence, a mountain life within the city. And so you may step off the street, through the gate, into the garden, and you're sort of immediately transported into not, which is exactly like a cut and paste version of the mountains. It's more a mountain inspired, simplified and abstracted version of nature. And so Tigran is for that reason, you know, anything that would be like sheared or clipped or pruned into clouds is never used in a tea garden. Because anything that would look manipulated or artificial or something man made, it would be inappropriate. It really is to kind of replicate going up into the mountains to visit a hermit who's living in sort of a humble house. And they've made the paths out of stepping stones that they found in the surrounding nature of the mountains. And the path is just, you know, the only things they've clipped is just enough for you to be able to make your way through the bushes and the trees in order to get to the tea room to have a cup of tea. So the pruning is done. So when people talk about, like, you know, we'll have done pruning workshops, and I've done with Mr. Eto some pruning workshops. And people will say, well, you know, we want to. We want to learn sort of natural style pruning. And we don't know if, you know, if Mr. Eto is the best person for that because, you know, they're expecting, like what everybody expects, unfortunately, is some kind of big giant bonsai tree. [01:35:02] Speaker B: Okay. [01:35:02] Speaker A: And they think that that's all we do. It's just. We just do bonsai, but bigger. And it really couldn't be farther from the truth. While we definitely do a lot of stylized trees that have a lot of manipulation, a lot of tea pruning is done in a way that doesn't look like you even put scissors into the tree. And a lot of stuff is done with your hand. And things are done in a way that where we. Where a lot of times we're just removing leaves or needles. We're almost not necessarily touching the branches too much. The Only place where we touch the branch might be to, you know, there'll be a. The name of the tea building will be on a plaque above it, above the entrance. And so there's a stone in the tea garden that you can stand on where you look up and you can sort of see the plaque and contemplate the sort of poetic name of the teahouse. And so those branches that hide that view might be pruned. And things are pruned in a way that allows you to attenuate the amount of light and the amount of shade in the garden, to sort of create different feelings for different spaces. But it's never done in a way that is what we might think of as like a garden that's been maintained. [01:36:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I really love that phrase that you said, and I couldn't repeat it back to you in Japanese, but you said basically, mountain life within the city. I think that really resonates with me. I feel like that is part of the reason I'm so attracted to bonsai and Japanese gardening in general. I just feel like it's so nice to be able to go out outside of your home and have a little piece of the mountain. And I always think of it like that or of the natural environment. And it's just a way for me to enjoy nature just within the city. So I really like that. I was curious, circling back a bit and talking about Japanese gardening within the United States. How do you approach plant selection? Like, I love Japanese black pines and several different species within that they use commonly within Japan. But then I guess I'm curious, do you incorporate American natives or any other types of plants when you are, let's say, initially designing a Japanese garden? [01:37:24] Speaker A: Oh, for sure. I mean, there's an important concept called chisan chisho, which is sort of local sourced, locally consumed materials. And a lot of times the discussions that we have about plant material, because we, you know, building San Diego or Texas or the. Or the Bay Area or. Or we did a little adventure in Michigan. You know, it's so dramatically different what you have and what's available. But a lot of times we're not like, looking like, oh, is this a plant that also grows in Japan? That's really not a consideration. It's more we knowing the kind of plants that are used in different types of gardens in Japan. We're just looking for what, okay, what has a growth pattern, what has a leaf shape, what has a color that's similar to what we would use if we were in Japan. So it's really Just about trying to find sort of similar feeling. Everything, really, the feeling is the most important thing. It's just if it has that feel, and then also if we look at the growth pattern and it mimics the way a plant in Japan would be, which means we can also then mimic the pruning methodologies. Well, that's the main factor in plant selection. [01:38:49] Speaker B: Very nice. So in California, do you use a lot of natives? Do you. Do you have some favorite ones for, say, like, the Southern California area? [01:39:01] Speaker A: I mean, there's some use of. I mean, definitely use oaks. [01:39:08] Speaker B: Love it. [01:39:09] Speaker A: There's some use of manzanita, but a lot of times. Oh, sorry, go ahead. [01:39:14] Speaker B: No, I was. I just am a big oak and manzanita fan. [01:39:19] Speaker A: It's interesting because it's like, we're not using them because they're native to California. We're just using them because, like, oh, this looks like, you know, this tree in Japan, like, and we can prune it the same way. So we're gonna. We're gonna use it. It's a lot of times the manzanita is difficult because of the. The color of the bark. It's. It's just kind of. And the color of the leaves can. It's sometimes. Sometimes things that are very assertive are not necessarily the most ideal. Kind of like, similar to Japanese culture. Like, everything is sort of needs to get along with everything else. And so something that's, like, too striking or too demanding of attention is generally shied away from stuff that sort of supports the rest of the space is considered more ideal. But really, it's not that we wouldn't use local materials or that we have to. It really is. Is this the best for the space? Is this the best for what we're trying to achieve? Does this kind of give us the feel that you would get from something similar in Japan? Because it's really just like, there's this deep faith that all the craftspeople have in the. The. The tradition that's been handed down to. To them by their forebears that. What. What. Obviously, they did a lot of trial and error, and there's been generations and generations of trial and error. And so the stuff that's lasted and stayed behind is. Has obviously been something that was. Because it worked. And it. It is something people wanted to keep and it mattered. And so there's a lot of trust in the tradition and sort of in following that. It's kind of like. I forget who said it, but some chef said that we're not here to invent we're here to refine. And sort of. It's interesting because there's a lot of question about, you know, are, aren't we. Are we artists or are we craftspeople? And it's like, we might be in the middle, we might be sort of artisans in the sense that, like, you know, we, we are doing things that are innovative or new. And. But even stuff that's innovative and new is still rooted in the tradition, in the honka. And so it's kind of like, like whether or not, like, oh, you kind of did this new, different thing or it's a different take and it. Maybe it, it would be considered rule breaking or, or, or, I mean, that literally is what Kazushi is. It's breaking. But the question of is this like, good or not, or is this artistic or does it matter? It really isn't necessarily up to us so much as that. It's, it's up to whether or not future generations also like it and repeat it. Because really everything now that is the tradition that we have so much faith and respect for. At some point it was something new and cutting edge that people were like, what is this? What are you doing? Breaking all the rules. Those cutting edge things which the Japanese called ryuko eventually became what is tradition now, which is the sort of fueki, the unchanging traditional structure. And so whether or not something is a valid addition to the tradition, or like, we need to argue about, like, should you do this or do that with a garden is like, that's not for us. It's time. Time will sort that out. And that's a big thing that I picked up from Mr. Etoys is just like, like, you don't even need to worry about that. If it's valid, if it's true to the tradition, if it's breaking it in a consistent way, then if that gets repeated and that garden is preserved, then that's when it'll be known whether it was okay. So I kind of like to encourage the people I work with, people who work with me encourage sort of pushing the limits and trying new things and stuff, as long as it's in line with and respectful of what's come before and it's, it's grounded in those foundations. I think it's, you know. [01:44:02] Speaker B: Yeah, very nice, very nice. Now with plant selection, kind of just staying on that topic, I'm curious, do you usually stick with a certain number of plants and not try and go with like a thousand different types? Is it good to stick with a certain number within a garden. And maybe not a specific number, but more like just not too many. Like, is there a balance there? [01:44:32] Speaker A: Oh, for sure. There's. There's. There's. There's a number there. You. Obviously, more is not always better. I would say that it's, again, kind of. It's a boring answer, but again, goes back to the tradition and to sort of cultivating your understanding of the legacy that's been passed down and seeing what good examples are and what's appropriate, and sort of cultivating a sensibility, cultivating a taste and a feeling that sort of tells you, like, okay, this is appropriate. This is going too far. And it really just requires putting in the. Sort of. The repetition, putting in the work and seeing it over and over and over again to help you get an idea. And also, it's kind of, I think, good to sort of understand parts of Japanese culture because they have a culture of sort of restraint. And so knowing where you need to be restrained and where you can push is a key factor in plant selection and the amount of plants you use. But also, just when you sort of fully try to embody all the aesthetic principles by just many, many years of study and absorbing it all, you kind of see, like here we actually kind of need to leave this open. We don't want to fill it because, like I said, it's. A lot of it is the use of space. We're creating space. It's almost like you think you're doing a garden. So it's about things, and we're planting things and we're setting things. But really, as you combine and weave the elements together, they're sort of creating a structure that makes a space. And then within that space, that space is sort of the stage. And the players on the stage. Age is basically like morning, noon and night, evening and night, and sort of the 365 days of the year as nature and the sun and wind interact upon the garden that you've created and sort of encompass that space. So there is a lot of specific, like I said, with stones, categories of trees and what kind of trees, when to use them, where to use them, what their function is in the garden. That's just something you sort of learn over time after just getting experience and studying. [01:47:16] Speaker B: Can you give any tips regarding maybe use of trees or use of stones? Just some general guidelines, [01:47:28] Speaker A: I suppose. The guy, the kind of. The guy that is sort of is a really key figure in, I think a lot of Japanese traditional arts and crafts is the tea master, Sen Norikyu. And he not Necessarily directly, but a lot of is now attributed to him. He left quite a few sort of documents and ideas and philosophies about aesthetics and how to do tea gatherings and how things should look and feel. And one of the things that he said is flowers should be used and arranged as they are in the field and sort of as they are in the mountains. And so like a lot of times the best use of stones or trees is kind of not in this wild, like let's do something really aggressive and stand it up on a funky angle, but sort of, sort of using the stone sort of as is it would be were it in the mountains, were it part of a natural formation one way. Like, it's interesting that like we, we talk about like doing, doing boulders in a garden and stone arrangements in a garden and we call it stone placement. And it's like that, that's kind of the, the action that's happening. But the, the, the craft of it is more like a craft of erosion. We're trying to have the stones look as if they've always been there and they just slowly eroded away through wind and water and other elements to expose themselves out of the ground sort of as they are or as they would be in the mountains. So I guess you could think of it that way. [01:49:32] Speaker B: Very interesting. [01:49:33] Speaker A: But also, you know, like, do you know for sure how they are in the mountains? It's like you think you do, but then you go to do it and it doesn't always come out that way first try. And I think that's what that is. You just need to put in the repetitions, the iterations. You need to do the trial and error and just see and absorb a lot of stuff for a really long time. It's, it's, or, or work with really high level people because then you can just kind of see it all all at once. And there's really no substitute for, for, for finding people that are really good at their craft and, and working with them because then so much insight just kind of comes in like a tidal wave. So it's really, it's really hard to give a tip or a pointer, but I guess the biggest tip would be work with somebody who' experienced and really competent. [01:50:35] Speaker B: Yeah, very nice. What, what has using American tools and machinery been like in terms of like, I know you learned with the things that they utilize in Japan and then coming here, everything is different. What has that process been like and what does it look like for you now? [01:50:57] Speaker A: I mean, not, not so much is different. I think, you know, construction is sort of standardized worldwide. I suppose that all the traditional tools I brought back from Japan. Every time I go to Japan, my suitcases become, you know, one ton objects because I fill them full of tools. Yeah. So a lot of the tools I source in Japan or I make myself here. There's, you know, there's, there's certain kinds of trowels I just make myself. There's. There's a tool for tamping soil or for, for locking stepping stones into place called a taco. And that's, that's something that we just make out of wood ourselves. I mean the cranes, a lot of cranes are actually made in Japan. So the cranes are the same here as they are there. And even excavators, the, the, the control pattern layout is. Is different, a little different, but it's not. I mean it's just a matter of just putting in the work. [01:52:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I suppose. Do you, do you use tripods very commonly to move stones or more? [01:52:07] Speaker A: Only when access is limited. [01:52:11] Speaker B: Makes sense. [01:52:12] Speaker A: If we can access it with equipment, we'll take in equipment. But there are times where there's just no access, especially in sort of more older areas, urban areas, and that'll be tripod. But it's like, it's kind of. It's not so much that like, oh, it's gotta be this tool or that tool. It's like whatever, whatever gives you the end result. [01:52:41] Speaker B: That makes total sense. Are there things like certain rocks and boulders and pool stones and things like that that you really envy and wish that you could get from Japan, but just because of shipping purposes it's just impractical over here or do you feel like you can find the supplies and materials that you want over here? [01:53:05] Speaker A: I mean a lot of stuff, a lot of like the stone paving in Japan actually came out of China. There's a lot of granite reclaimed pavers that are used in like you'll see them a lot in Kyoto. It's very common to have the granite pathways. That stuff is, is somewhat available here. The, the stones like I, I think that it's better to use stones that are local to your area rather than importing a stone from somewhere else. Mainly because I think it's, you know, the way the sunlight reflects off of the surface of a stone. I think it knows whether it's from that area or not. And like you'll see this with gardens, like they'll. There's a lot of. There's a kind of stone that's sort of a whitish marble called Desert, Desert select or Desert Marble. Or sometimes it's called Sierra in our area and you'll see that used a lot and it's brought down here. But it's actually from a little bit farther north of the northern part of sort of southern to central California and it's more up in the mountains. And I think just the angle of the sunlight and the quality of the light down here is different. And so when that rock gets used, it's very bright and it's very hard to look at in midday. But we have a native stone called Cresta that's a lot grayer and has almost darker gray, sometimes even blackish quality to it. And it really works well with the San Diego sunlight. But particularly from Japan. The only thing that I really want and would, you know, import is lanterns, stone lantern, because those have a provenance. They're made by known artisans that are working multi generations and they're just of a superb quality. I mean, we can get granite lanterns that were made from Japanese designs and measurements in China and then shipped here. But most of them were cut with power tools and not handmade. So we could get those. And there is a appropriate use of those because they are no different from the ones in Japan in terms of the proportions. And they are granite, but they're too pretty. And so what we do is we'll take stone hammers and chisels and we'll hammer them up real good and we'll deform them, round out the corners, refinish the surfaces with Japanese stone tools just to, just to get. And then also we'll rub. There's a plant that has a lot of like, kind of the leaf is very, how would you say it kind of produces sort of a white substance when you rub the leaf. And we'll rub leaves on the granite itself and it helps it get a darker patina to it faster and anything to just kind of get it away from its fresh factory cut look to something that's been more aged and weathered. And it also helps your lichen stick, stick to it, come develop on it faster. But if, yeah, if I could import, I would most certainly import high quality lanterns. There's actually a, a lantern company that's a sixth generation company called Saida Stone. And they're, they're, they've been coming to the United States and, and doing workshops and things like that. And I hope more of that happens. And there's more because really like a lot of times people like, oh, I want a lantern, but it's, it's expensive, you know, it's even the, even the Chinese imports are, you know, could be 2,000, $3,000. And, and sometimes people might have like, oh, that's, you know, for just one, one thing, we're going to do a whole garden here. And I mean, the only thing, like one Bill Castellan, who, who is a garden builder in the barrier I work with, he says something that I really like is that when people say, like, I don't, I don't want to use this. You know, I don't know if it's going to fit. You know, it's, it's a lot for this one thing. You know, maybe this is a $7,000 lantern. And he'll, he'll just kind of, of calmly turn to them and say, well, do you want the garden to look like you ran out of money halfway through? And I always get a kick out of. He's a guy who could say his mind is something I respect very much. He's really, really a fantastic garden builder. But the other part of that is you're not going to have to buy a lantern every year. You're going to buy a couple. Maybe one, maybe three. And the other thing is, if you buy a good one, it has resale value. It's a work of art. It's something to appreciate. It's not just. So that's why when people put concrete lanterns in their gardens, there's another quote from Bill Castellan. He calls them abominations. That's just his favorite word. So now whenever we. Matthew Galasio, who works with me, kind of become my, I'm familiar with Right Hand Man. He. Whenever we go to a new garden and we see a concrete lantern, we're just like, it's an abomination. It's just, it's better to not have it at all if you're gonna do that. [01:58:34] Speaker B: For sure. I get that. I get that. Gotcha. Very interesting. Yeah. You know, so one thing I'm also interested in is like, have you guys done any bonsai specific gardens where you're highlighting the trees? And do you have any thoughts on that? I think that's something maybe outside of the scope that you typically do. But is that something that you are interested in potentially doing? [01:59:04] Speaker A: I have done that in the past. I've built sort of benches and, and done the layout and, and sort of just through familiarity with Japanese carpentry and sort of how the benches look in Japan and then sort of done gardens around it, adjacent to it. But a lot of times my instinct is to like, tell people, like, do less garden I. I really like. You know, In Okayama there's a garden, Bonsei garden, Meijuan. Like their garden is just some nice pathways and sort of black fence backdrops or I haven't been there. But Shinji Suzuki's garden in Oguse, just that kind of just restraint is always better. I mean, there can only be one star of the show. The rest has to be good supporting actors really a lot of times, like the old high level Japanese garden builders, they'll judge your work more on how you handle the supporting cast and where you place it and what effect that has in terms of what makes a good garden builder. Because anybody can take a really, really amazing set of stones that have been pulled out of the mountains that are craggily and real interesting and put them into a three stone or a five stone or a seven stone layout and bring in a really nice style pine tree and compose that together. Not amateur level, but that's not very impressive. How is the framing done? How. What was the space? What's the backdrop like? What are the sort of the elements that set off the composition? What frames the foreground? You know, that's really where someone who's skilled and high level, like, you'll find that part of the work is really tight and really done well. And so not that you certainly could shouldn't do combined Japanese gardens and a lot of. For both side stuff, I relied a lot on Matthew. He's definitely an amazing talent in that. But I think just because we have been working together for some time now and we also work with, with Mr. Eto, you know, exclusively, it's kind of everybody sort of developed the same sense of taste and sensibility. And so really it really, it's, you know, it's not so much what you put in it, it's just how you use it. [02:02:04] Speaker B: Yeah, well. And so Abram, I could totally edit this part out. But one thing, you know, I would be really interested in, and I don't know if you've seen my Instagram very much, but. But I have a bonsai garden which it was the first time I've ever built anything like that. And you know, I didn't really consult with anybody, I just kind of hodgepodged it together. And I feel like at some point in the near future I'm going to kind of do like a version 2 or I may just slowly start adjusting piece by piece. I'm not exactly sure I would love, and I don't know if this is something that you are open to, but I would love to consult with you somehow or hire you as a consultant is what I mean. To just maybe give me ideas. I would love to pay you to just take a look and, and like give me your thoughts at some point. And I'm not sure if that is something that you do or not. And I, I can totally edit. [02:03:06] Speaker A: Oh yeah, I, we, we do, I do consulting. My try to be involved in the whole process. It's actually good when things start out as sort of talking and consulting and it's not a rush. Like a lot of times what I find myself doing is trying to slow everything down one because just the schedule [02:03:32] Speaker B: but [02:03:34] Speaker A: for any kind of especially new project, obviously when the project is going we try to do it quickly and speedily. But in the development phase it's always better to have a slightly slower, more considered approach and sort of, it's almost like because this tradition is so old and so rich, it really does take a lot of I think studying and of sort of cultivating your sense of taste and you're just sort of awareness of what you're getting. Because I think in the same way like with bonsai like you might, you might, you know like I, I really like this type of juniper. I really like this type of pod and or you know this, this, this style. Maybe it's, maybe it's hanken guy or maybe it's, it's, it's you know, any number of things. Maybe a kabodachi like this is. I really love that I want to have that. But you, you, you study it and you know about it. You see famous ones that have been showed at the Koko Futen or Sakufu10 and so you're sort of aware of like the artist that made it and like you kind of, you sort of join the fellowship in a sense and it's much more meaningful to you versus like when you do a Japanese garden and you might have myself or somebody who's a long time practitioner say this is, we're going to do this and we have this possibility of, of making this kind of garden with these kind of elements. It's, it's a little bit of a one way street and it's like yeah, that's like really nice. But like I was saying before, like it's really nice when somebody that's like grown up in Japan or spent a lot of time in Japan and studies or did they just study Japanese gardens a lot and they're like this, you know, it's not the sort of surface level stuff that's easily Available. [02:05:25] Speaker B: It's. [02:05:25] Speaker A: It's the deep dive. They've taken many deep dives into it, and they're like, you know, I went to this one temple that was sort of off the beaten path in Kyoto, and they had this one entryway, and there was this space that just really was amazing. And then we could say, oh, yeah, we've been there too. We know that temple. We know how that garden is, and that's really cool. We'd like to do something like that. And then it becomes a thing of, like, on me, on us. It's like, can you pull that off versus telling someone like, hey, there's this really cool thing, and it would probably go great in your space. You should have it. But then, you know, the deeper references to what it is, you know, it's. It's way much better when the, you know, everybody involved is. Knows it and is experienced in it. It's not that you have to become an expert in it, but just like kind of being. Being. Being a patron, in a sense, being. Being a fan of it really helps because then it's also a great challenge to us because it's like, then we know that you. You've seen the thing that. That we've seen, and then the expectations there. And so when we deliver, it's. It's that much more satisfying. [02:06:36] Speaker B: That's super fun. I love it. And, yeah, I would just say, you know, if you're ever in the area, I would happily pay you to come give me some guidance with my. My garden. So. Yes. [02:06:50] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. I'd love to check out your trees. [02:06:53] Speaker B: That would be awesome. Cool. Well, I guess, and. And, you know, we can totally catch up more about that later, but I'm in the San Luis Obispo area, so if you're ever traveling up to the bay or anything like that. [02:07:09] Speaker A: I hope to be traveling up to the bay. Oh, gosh, I don't know. Now everything. The. This. The schedule is pretty stacked, but I hope to at least by the end of the year. [02:07:25] Speaker B: Awesome. [02:07:25] Speaker A: They're working. All the rest of the schedule goes according to plan, which it rarely does because we work outside and we have to deal with rain, and nature tells us when we can work and when we can't, but we've been lucky so far. [02:07:43] Speaker B: That sounds great. [02:07:44] Speaker A: I. I wonder. I was wondering if I could. I don't. I. I know you brought up Shuhari before and. And I don't. I didn't know if you. I feel like that's, like, kind of used a lot, and you see It a lot in business, sort of, I don't know, like motivational books or videos. Like, sometimes it'll show up in my feed, possibly because I'm searching Japanese terms a lot I would love for you to dive into. A lot of it is like, you know, there is the way it's described in Japan and shuhari being sort of three stages, at least in terms of like sports or in art, where the first element, shu, is the foundation, the fundamentals, the thing that you have to follow and you have to keep. That's sort of what shu means, is sort of to keep or to protect. And then the next phase of ha. To break, to sort of to really doesn't necessarily literally means break, but it's kind of more close to the word I used before kuzushi, where you're sort of improvising. You're. If you're playing an instrument, you're kind of getting a lot more comfortable. You're able. If you're playing drums, you're able to add more fills and be a little bit more loose with things while still keeping it sounding really well and on time. And then d kind of is this sort of idea of transcendence or separation. But I think that's where a lot of the kind of core meaning gets lost because you're not. There's no way that I will transcend Mr. Eto. Like, there's no way that I will transcend my elders and go to a place that's better than they are, at least not in their lifetime. Maybe when I get to as old as them and have gone as far as them, then maybe there is some new territory, undiscovered territory. Although I'm very suspicious about that. It's more sort of the departure, the separation, the final element of Shuhari Dali is a kind of a separation from one's own ego, of one's own self that's become sort of competent in the fundamentals to the point where they can start to improvise and sort of fine tune and add their own spice to it. And it's sort of a separation from that self and that ego. Back to the basics again. And the reason why I've come to think that way is the. I mentioned Sen Norikyu before and sort of his teachings on tea ceremony. One of the things that. One of his famous quotes is that Practice means learning one thing and understanding 10, and then returning from 10 back to the original one. And so it's like you start at the basics, you go all the way up to 10, and then by returning back to your sort of foundations or your, your original core teachings, the you. When you're at one, when you're a new, when you're a new apprentice and you're learning one, there's so much things just flying about that you don't understand and can't absorb and you're just like hustling and rushing every second. And so it's one you don't get to experience a lot of one, you get it, you become competent in it, you sort of work it out. But there's a lot that you miss. And someone who's seen 10 who then takes a real sincere look at 1 and 2 and 3 again, there's so much more to be discovered. In fact, there's so much to be discovered at 1 and at 2 and 3 and all the steps that you can go from 1 to 10 and back again endlessly. Many, many cycles. And so there's even another quote that is like, you know, sort of, of suggest that when you're sort of doing the practice, it's not that you have to overcome a teacher or like you're trying to get to this end point. It's really more that you're participating in a cyclical tradition. And if there is something new that's created, it's kind of going to be something that grows out of the tradition. And it, it's, it's why, it's what makes it good is, it's because it's, it's rooted in that, that original tradition that's been handed down by your elders. [02:12:32] Speaker B: Very cool, very interesting. I feel like there's so much there that I have to listen to this a few times to really comprehend the entire thing and message and. But I absolutely love you explaining these concepts and these terms to me. Thank you. [02:12:53] Speaker A: Oh, I'm, I'm talking about them all the time with Mr. Eto and with, with Matthew and with my other guy, Ryan. Shout out to Ryan. He, he, he moved back, back home a couple months ago. He's starting his own tree growing operation up in the, in Half Moon Bay. But I'm talking to pretty much everybody. This is like, this is the only thing we talk about. It's just what is the craft? What does it mean to be a craftsperson? Like what are the attitudes you need to have? How's the way of thinking? Because that's kind of like what it is in Japan. I mean, I, I try to as much as possible and it's the thing that like, like kind of really keeps me focused is is to. You can't do it like Japan because we're not in Japan, but to, to, to share as accurately as possible, as much as possible with anybody who works with me, like, how it would be in Japan and what's that perspective and how to look at it and how they would say it. What's the word for it? [02:14:02] Speaker B: It. [02:14:05] Speaker A: Matthew speaks a fair amount of Japanese, so we, I definitely use it at work. And of course, Mr. Eto doesn't really speak any English, so we're all, you know, we're only using Japanese when we're working with him. And so I feel, I feel like just all those things. It's kind of like, kind of like one, one, One time I, I, I read something that stuck with me about what. What. When someone was asking, like, what is. So what is Japan and Japanese culture and, and their arts and, and this person likened it to the food, I don't know if you've ever tried it, called natto, the, the fermented soybeans. [02:14:45] Speaker B: Fermented soybean? [02:14:47] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. [02:14:47] Speaker B: I actually haven't tried it. [02:14:49] Speaker A: Oh. [02:14:50] Speaker B: Like, I've heard about it, though. [02:14:51] Speaker A: It's fantastic. [02:14:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. [02:14:53] Speaker A: Either people really love it or they're really. [02:14:56] Speaker B: But they hate it. [02:14:56] Speaker A: Yeah, but it's, it's wonderful. It, you know, if you, you mix in some green onions and maybe you could sesame seeds, sometimes a little bit different sauce, whatever you add to it kind of changes. It makes it more interesting. So a lot of times as you have like, your breakfast on top of your, your rice, so I'd like to try it. But anyway, that's not, that's not what the point. The point. Even though, even though I could talk at length about natto and, and, but it's kind of like. It's like it's a fermented thing. There's a lot of fermented miso paste is fermented. A lot of what, like, sort of the crafts, arts and stuff like that is in the culture is a culture of fermentation. And so it's like, it's not like that you hear a thing or experience a thing and then boom, you get it right away. It's something that you kind of have to sit with and let it sort of start to bubble up and ferment and kind of build richness and, and background flavor. It's sort of, it really requires sort of like a lot of like, little tiny, like the way the microorganisms work to ferment the. Not to like, it requires a lot of Tiny little observations. And like, they. And they actually, like, they. They Japan speak to this specifically. [02:16:13] Speaker B: They, they. [02:16:14] Speaker A: They call them kizuki. And like, these kind of. These little tiny observations that you get just by doing the same thing in the same way for a long, long period of time. It's not that you're just like mindlessly doing the same thing in the same way. You're doing it with presence and intention and consideration, but you're trying to be very consistent and just doing it in the same way, not letting your emotions, not letting. If you're fatigued or tired or how you feel that day affect what it is you. You're keeping it consistent and you're working with sincerity. And sort of. That sincere practice expanded out over a long period of time sort of is the sort of the growing bed for these small observations, these little. These sort of. They call them Chisa Nakizuki. There's these little bits that you get. And over time it's like, oh, you know, when I'm. When I'm holding this tool, if I hold it this way and maybe I close my armpit and I straighten my back, like I get a better strike on the stone, or when I'm like, climbing in a tree, if I do a certain position or I brace myself a certain way, I can last a lot longer in one space and I can work on more of the branch without having to take a rest. And you just kind of build those little things up over time and those little sort of realizations, then they actually are what becomes your technique. [02:17:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Would. Would you talk a little bit about the term shokunin and maybe how that term differs from the term master that I feel like we hear so often in the United States? [02:18:06] Speaker A: Well, like, a shokunin is just a. Like, literally, like a shoku is like a job or a practice, and the nin is a person. And it's just like, kind of boils down to you're not necessarily trying to be a perfectionist. And it doesn't really suggest, like, mastery or some kind of skill level. It's just you're participating in a lineage in like a community over time of a traditional craft. And. And there's a recognition that you can't make anything that's better than who you are as a person. So you're working every day to sort of cultivate yourself, your sensibility, but also just the way you conduct yourself and the way you treat other people as a way to sort of be a worthy vessel, to carry the tradition forward. And then to obviously to learn it and to absorb it. It and as correctly and as skillfully as possible. And then so that when people come to work for you or with you and they have to copy what you do, that their copy is a good quality copy because you've made yourself a good quality copy of the techniques and the tradition that you've learned from somebody else. So it's kind of. There's like a. You're not just a worker. There's a philosophy and an ethic behind it. And in that sort of sense of ethics, there's actually, like, you'll find in old books in Japan that, like, they've recorded it. There's certain aspects. And like, one of them is, you know, a lot of times in America, like, if people is a master or they're a teacher, just because we really like. We like having gurus and we like having easy answers, there's a sense of, like, people will say, well, this is my technique. And you'll never hear, like, a shokunin in Japan say, like, this is my. My technique. Like, they own it. Like, it's the sense that your techniques, your skills belong to the greater society. Like, because you exist in a place of service. And like, it's. It's service to the people you work with, to the patrons who hire you, to the. The materials and then the craft itself into making sure you have high fidelity and the way you carry the craft forward. So it's like, it's not so much just, I do this, and this is me and it's mine. It's your participating in the creation of the world. [02:21:00] Speaker B: World. [02:21:01] Speaker A: And so that could be, you know, if you're. If you're like, you know, a carpenter, you're somebody's house, or if it's a garden, it's, you know, it's a place that people are going to go and sort of relax at the end of the day. And so it's important part of creation. And in the sense that you are participating in that, it's more of a. There's more of a sense. Like the way in Japanese, like, we just say, like, I did this or, like, I gotta do this. But, like, the verb. The way they conjugate verbs, especially shokunin talk this way, is they always say, I get to do this. Or they say, like, I was permitted to do this or. Or like, I was. I received the. The sort of the honor of being allowed to participate. Like, they never say, like, I did that for you. You know, in that sort of sense. [02:21:52] Speaker B: Sense. [02:21:53] Speaker A: They. It's it's always the other way around. Even if, like, they're like the whole reason this thing is happening and without them it would be, it wouldn't exist like this. Still, there's this sort of level of humility that's like you think you're being humble, but it's just, it's not even close. So and so it's. When it comes to mastery, it's, it's like the only point of, like, mastery is for. And it's not even that. It's. It's like you have to receive the tradition from your elders. And in the, the traditional crafts world, there is no teaching, there's only learning. Like, they'll tell you right off the bat, like, I have nothing to teach you. Like, we're not gonna, we're not gonna do that. Like, you can watch me work and you can try to copy me or steal my. The word they use in Japanese is steal the techniques. But then even when you talk about it, you say, well, they allowed me to steal the techniques. You don't ever say that you did this. It's always, I was permitted to steal. And so that's why sometimes, like, it's such a big thing if somebody does something even in, in tea, not just in, in the crafts world, if somebody does a certain technique in front of you at an angle that you can see it really well, or like, that's a huge gift. Like they're, they're giving you something that you can then try to emulate and copy. And the reason being is that, you know, a lot of people think like, that's like, really harsh. Like, like, I'm not going to teach you anything like that. Like, how do you, how does someone learn their job that teach? Ultimately, it's like our timeframe is too short. Probably. It, you know, we think like, oh, well, you gotta teach somebody, get them up to speed because, you know, we're doing this. And it's true that even in Japan you have to get up to speed and, you know, you're expected to like, climb in the tree, like day one and get. You gotta produce results because, you know they're paying you. But the sense of, like, in terms of why teaching is avoided in the traditional structure of crafts is, it seems like a kind thing that's actually very harmful long term. And because their timescale is like 10 years and 20 years, like, you know, 30 years, honestly, they say apprenticeship is until death. [02:24:16] Speaker B: Death. [02:24:17] Speaker A: So when it, it, when it's expanded out to that time frame, not being told something Having to copy it, having to emulate. And then of course you're going to fail. You're, you're going to try it, it's going to be close, but it's not going to work and you're going to get yelled at. But in that sort of trial and error process, you're not understanding it with your brain. You're understanding it as part of your muscle membrane memory. And that, that's the only memory that can be, have high fidelity and then they can last. So there's often a phrase that traditional craftsman will say in Japan, which is something that somebody told you you'll forget in three days, something that you, you, you ground, grind it into your muscle memory will stay with you forever. And so you, in order to do muscle memory, it's not like you can just tell somebody and it's words and I understand your words. So therefore I understand what it's you, you need, the body needs to learn it. So in order for the body to learn it, you need to try it and fail and then try again and then start to have these little revelations and then get a little bit better and a little bit better and then that becomes such a solid foundation that's unshakable. That then, then that leads to the even higher level technique because a lot of people, I think you're looking at like a two and three year, four year, five year time frame. It's just not enough time time. It's, it's what, what happens after 10 years? What, what happens to your skills after 20 years? Like that's where they're aimed at, where they're trying to get you, I think. And so it's, it's like sort of trying to think, oh I, you know, this is a master and he's going to teach me is really the complete, it's the complete opposite of that. And then mastery ultimately is, is, you know, they say it's, it's an illusion of the people who are less experienced because once you like even with talking to, to Mr. Eto, like when he'll be like, you know, even at this age I'm still learning new things. And he'll sort of have this attitude of like, well, I don't really know. And so I'm going to try it and find out. And he doesn't really even act as though he's a master of anything. He's just always forever, you know, a student. He's always possessing the sort of, they call it Shoshone machine, which like, it's kind of like Our version of. Our version would be beginner's mind, but it's. It's more than that. It's kind of like not calcifying. It's not. It's not, you know, locking into this is the way. Always curious, like you said. [02:26:55] Speaker B: Yeah, that's fantastic. I absolutely love that. Yeah. I don't love the term master. I think I've spoken about that previously, but I don't know. I feel like one. It's just overused in the United States, and it's kind of become a corny term, I think. But also, I feel like being a master is the wrong mindset, and we should always be curious and have a beginner's mindset and be open to learning new things. So I love. I love hearing you talk about that. That's fantastic. [02:27:29] Speaker A: Well, also, there's a. There's a strange thing that happens. As you know me, I don't have enough decades to fully be experiencing it, but it started a little bit for me, and certainly I see it in Mr. Eto a lot, is that there's this sort of. It's actually his favorite motto, which is the rice stock that's full of seed, bends over and bows the lowest. In the sense that the more experience you gain, the more skills you have, the ability, the more you've seen, the more you actually become aware of, like, how massive and how complex and how deep the rabbit hole really goes. And this sort of tradition of craft that you're pursuing is. There's so much more to it than you could ever have possibly imagined when you started that the gulf between what you know and what you don't know just gets bigger and bigger because you just see more and more of the mountain that you're climbing. You kind of. When you started climbing a mountain, you sometimes. You can't see the top, right? You sort of see the next foothill, and you keep going and going up. And then eventually you kind of get to maybe a certain halfway up the mountain point that. Where you just switch back, and it allows you to sort of open up to see the valley and the peak that you're headed towards, and you kind of have that oh, my God moment of like, oh, it's way up there. And so it's kind of. It's kind of like that. That there's no. There's no mastery when there's that sort of that level of humility, that it's just like you. The more you see what it truly is, what the tradition truly encompasses, you really just can't have an ego because it's so overwhelming. But if you're kind of sort of focused on yourself too much and considering what is my skill and what is my level of mastery and who am I teaching, you probably might be blinded to how big the mountain really is. [02:29:29] Speaker B: Is h. I think there's a lot of things that we could, we could learn in the Western world from how they think about things in Japan. A lot of great concepts and interesting things there. [02:29:45] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean one, one thing I, you know, I, I really want to say because I've. [02:29:49] Speaker B: I've. [02:29:49] Speaker A: It came to my attention is that actually through a friend who does carpentry, who does Japanese carpentry country. And like, he had a really like, rough experience with. With an elder carpenter that he worked with who's this American gentleman who went to Kyoto and studied carpentry in Kyoto. And my friend, well, he's been to Japan. He didn't do a lot of, you know, in depth study and formal study in a sense, but he's a fantastic carpenter. He's now, he runs quite a big, big carpentry business doing incredible work. But that elder person who did train in Japan kind of sort of used his experience in Japan to sort of belittle and put down my friend and to tell him, you didn't do this or you didn't have this experience that I did. So you don't know. So he kind of gate kept in a sense. And the result of my friend was that he kind of felt intimidated by Japan and kind of turned off by it and sort of it closed his years to, you know, all the good things that there could are there that are. That are just hidden beneath the surface and someplace hidden very deep. And, and I just, I felt like incredibly remorseful hearing that because I realized like, you know, if you have gone and worked in Japan and done a formal training or worked for a company or whatever it may be, you know, there's this sense that you kind of get treated like you've had a unique experience. And so there's this sort of expert culture that sort of seems to come along with that. [02:31:28] Speaker B: That. [02:31:29] Speaker A: And I, I never wanted any of that. I don't, I don't even. I'm terrified even to teach anybody anything because of. Of, you know, how hard that is. And, and what I mentioned previously. But it's like I just wanted to, to participate in this tradition and, and build these really cool things. But it, in a sense, it's like if you are too focused on like, well, this is not. This is how it's done in Japan and the way you're doing it is this American way. And it's, you know, it's, it's not, it's not right and it's not in keeping with it and it's, and it's somehow wrong. It's like I feel like, you know, that that kind of has to stop and like the kind of, sort of, the thing that I don't ever want to be and I don't like being around is people that are sort of gurus that take their sort of unique and like sort of brief experience and sort of make it less accessible in a way because maybe that is like you do for business, you do want to look like you're this very competent expert expert and that you, you know things that other people don't know. But in considering like how fragile the human body is and how all of this tradition only exists in the, the only accurate way that it exists, it may exist in books, but it really exists in the human muscle memory. And given that humans are fragile beings, like, we really not need to like any kind of, of behavior that's would amount to gatekeeping really just is unacceptable when you consider how it's actually critically important that the tradition gets shared with as many people in this accurate and high fidelity way as possible. And so I kind of think that it's, you know, it's hard because I don't feel like I, I fully am a worthy vessel to carry and share the tradition. At least not yet. But at the same time that's why there's all these things that seem like, oh, the Japanese people want to do things but it's a waste of time or there's all these extra steps, or they're worried about how you hold your chopsticks and how you eat your rice and how does that have anything to do with work? But it kind of does. Everything is connected to everything and sort of if you like do something or you teach or share something in the wrong way, either positively or negatively, and someone's not ready, maybe the transmission is a little bit corrupted and it's not as accurate and that's the same as not transmitting at all. So I don't know where I'm going with this, but [02:34:14] Speaker B: that's so much good. You dropped so much knowledge on me right now. I really appreciate it. You have a very humble mindset and I really appreciate that and respect that a lot. And I feel like a lot of people in the west could really learn a lot from or could use a Little bit or could be a little bit more humble themselves. [02:34:36] Speaker A: It's, it's tricky because, like, as a, just a short story, like the first time I worked with Mr. Eto as his sort of foreman and interpreting and helping him run the project, there's a lot of times where we'd have meetings with different sort of people on the American side. And a lot of times being, you know, five decades now, six decades in, you know, practitioner of the Japanese landscaping crafts. You know, Mr. Eto is like incredibly humble. Like, his level of humility is, you know, highly polished and it's deeply sincere. But when he talks, it means he says things in a way that are not very direct or could even leave you with the impression like, does this guy know what he's doing, doing? Like, he's very deferential and instead of making very clear, definitive statements that, that sort of, the sort of aggressive way you would expect somebody who's in charge in America to speak. [02:35:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:35:44] Speaker A: And so in interpreting that Japanese into English is, is very tricky because really what he wants to do is something he's not saying very specifically or directly. And he's sort of deferring to the other side and what they might think because he doesn't assume that he's the all knowing and he has all the right answers and he also wants to respect where they're coming from because sort of respect for others is sort of one of the sort of core traits of sort of Japanese landscape craftsman or any kind of craftsman that's sort of part of the ethos. So switching that over to, yes, we're humble to the patron and to the craft and to the work and the materials, but balancing that with being able to say, but no, this is going to be how you want to do it. This is going to look amazing. We should do it. Like, this is tough because you really do come off quite soft by American standards. And it's like, oh, so this guy, he's not a big deal at all. But the whole thing is know one thing that another way of saying is they say that, you know, the, the, the clever, the clever hawk hides his talons. So it's, you don't want to, you don't want to be sort of parading all your skills out all at once and that which leads, which leads to like, is that guy humble or does he not know what he's doing? But I, but I can assure you in the case of, of Etosan, he, he really knows what he's doing. [02:37:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I can see how that would Be very tricky as a translator who kind of understands both sides too. Like, that's gotta be very challenging for you. [02:37:32] Speaker A: Yeah, Japanese have the. They have two sort of two minds. Like they call it the Hond and the Tatemae. And Hondae is like what you really think, and the Tatemae is what is, you know, good PR is what you need to put out there. And. And because a lot of times, like a lot of Japanese is based on like, you know, read the room, like, feel the atmosphere. Like I. He's saying that, but in. There's no way on earth that that's what he really means. Like, it is a very common dynamic. So it's, you know, you gotta. It's just. There's just so much. That's why it's. That's why when you meet sort of Japanese people for the first time, they'll always do a proper self introduction. Tell you where they're from, how old they are, where they're working, who they're working for, what they did, where they went to school. Because the vertically oriented hierarchy needs all those cues. Because in order to know how to talk to you properly, I need to know how old you are, who you're with, where you're from, what the background is. All these little pieces of metadata are critical and sometimes they're more of the conversation than the actual conversation conversation. So it's a tricky. It's a tricky world, but it's fun. [02:38:50] Speaker B: Very tricky. Very interesting. Fascinating. Got it. Well, I feel like we have covered quite a few topics. We've kind of gone all over the place, which I think is super fun and I really enjoyed that, I guess, you know, is there any other areas that you're interested in, in talking? I want to be respectful of your time too. I know we're at 2 hours and 50 minutes almost here. Oh, no. [02:39:20] Speaker A: I just assume we go three hours or more. I just blocked out the 4th of July weekend. [02:39:29] Speaker B: I love it. [02:39:29] Speaker A: Just gonna relax. Well, also, I guess I would talk about what I mentioned before. The concept of N. Like. Like talking to people and talking in front of people, doing. Going to conferences or like doing workshops and stuff is the le. My least favorite thing in all the world. And sort of talking in a way that's like, oh, this is going to be. Go out to the masses also terrifies me. Like, I can't even begin to explain because a lot of times you're taught that like, you know, the garden is the main thing, the work is the show, and we're. We're sort of behind the scenes and the work should speak for itself and so we certainly shouldn't be out in front of it. And just my own personality also, I, I don't like. But in terms of like, in terms of. In like. I've been trying to follow sort of the. What they teach in Japan of like, you need to respect in when you receive it. So like, I just, you know, it was kind of out of the blue that you reached out to me and my first thought was, oh, no, I. How do I, how do I say no? But then I realized, I realized. And I've been realizing that more lately, I guess over the past three years because a lot of times I had done up to now I'd been go and work with different people and crews and working with. With Etosan and stuff. And, and we, A lot of people would come and work with us, but I, I haven't had anybody sort of work with me directly sort of for Dalton Landscape. And a couple years ago, Ryan Chapman and then quickly following him, Matthew Glass came and I was, I was able to, to bring them on board and, and work with them and, and sort of that experience made me kind of realize, like, you can't really go out and just say like, oh, this person, you know, they're, they're going to be suited to this and, and come. Come over here and work. You know, we got a job for you. It's kind of like for. You have to really be suited to the work and to the craft and to the mindset especially, you know, given all the ethical and philosophical aspects involved. And so, you know, kind of both, both of them just sort of really fit things really, really well. And I realized it wasn't really anything I did like to. Other than maybe just trying to do a good job every day, but it was really in that sort of brought that, those, those, those connections to me. And I had been thinking about that previously and of I course, course Etosan always is talking about in and the importance of in and how that is the sort of the core force of the universe and it needs to be respected as much as possible. And so I just saw that you reaching out to me was kind of a small piece of in. And you know, it was up to me whether or not to acknowledge it and respect it and see what it was or to, to turn it away and, and to, to. To let it break. And so even though it's the not that I'm definitely a fish out of water talking to you right now, I realize that as since in as much as I had received the end to. To be able to have a conversation with you, that I. I should definitely take you up on the offer and. And respect the sort of the. The gift that the universe is giving. So in as much as I'm doing that, I. I really want to. To say things in a way that's accurate and not. Not portray myself or what I do incorrectly or others. So I really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you about all these things. [02:43:37] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it's interesting. I feel like, personally, I actually, I just took a Myers Briggs test for the first time, and I don't know if you. Have you ever taken one of those before? [02:43:51] Speaker A: I do not know what that is. [02:43:53] Speaker B: Okay, well, anyways, so one of it is, one of the tests is, are you an introvert or an extrovert? Naturally. And I think that personally, I am more of an introvert, and so I scored closer to that, but I'm kind of in between. But I feel like I've really had to train myself to be an extrovert. And I also just feel like I am not necessarily the best when it comes to words and a lot of these concepts that you just went over. I love to listen and I love to learn, and I'm trying to learn, but at the same time, I feel like you are like ten steps, not ten, like a hundred steps ahead of me just in terms of where you're at when it comes to all this stuff. And. And it is very, very interesting. And I would like. And I very much want to learn, but I don't necessarily think I am the best when it comes to podcasting. But I'm forcing myself to do a podcast because I think that often the only way that you get better is through that repetition and through trial and error, much like you just spoke about previously. [02:44:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree with that very much. I mean, like, you want. The one thing that comes to mind is like, this sort of. There's sort of a mandate in Shugyo to embrace the difficult, to pursue the difficult, to take the harder path. That's more challenging, that requires more of you, and to sort of chew that up and use it as nourishment. So that's pretty much if I've done anything, that's what I've tried to do is seek the challenge. And even if that means I, you know, I get a beating or several, doesn't matter. It's like I just. I use that. I just eat that up. It's just nourishment all that, that adversity and challenge and then it just sort of kind of that that experience in itself is kind of leads to understanding. I hope at least I've put my faith in that idea. But what you said about like sort of personality wise, it's interesting because I, I again like having. Having the experience of being fortunate enough to have two really good guys working for me and sort of, and sort of seeing how, how they act and seeing how their personalities show up in their work. It's really like, it's exactly like it was the experience I had in Japan in the sense that it's not so much introvert, extrovert the way they look at things as the two categories are kyo and bukyo. And sort of kyo means like somebody who's like very just naturally talented. They can absorb things quickly and they just can feel it out. And they sort of, they're sort of quick on their feet and they're, they're skilled with their hands. And it doesn't take them a lot to, to kind of pick up a technique or at least pick up the sort of proto version of a technique. And bukio is the sort of exact opposite of that. It's, it's. It's somebody that like, you know, in order to, to mark out a straight line, needs to. To get a string and, and line it up and make sure everything's sighted perfectly and then mark it in very small increments and then they get a straight line line. Whereas a Keo person can kind of look and maybe it takes them like one or two tries and they can mark out that straight line or draw that straight piece of chalk on a piece of wood or whatever it may be. And the Keo, they will progress quickly. But a lot of times what they say is that you drown in being Keo. Everything comes so easy for you. It's almost like you lose interest. And there's obviously a deeper level of technique that you need to absorb and bring into muscle memory. And sometimes when stuff comes easy, you don't put in that sort of extra practice going out every day and really like how does this really work? I just felt it out and got the right answer. But what are the steps? What are the details? If I had to explain this to somebody, what are the intricacies of it? And that's a place where somebody who's a bukyo will really shine because they have to learn every piece of a thing in order to get it. And they have to sort of struggle and really kind of go 1 through 10 and it may be that like where you're sort of kyobukyo, there's a little bit difference in the kind of work they do and how quickly they absorb stuff at the start. When you draw that out over 10 years, like somebody who's bukyo generally has a much more grounded understanding of things and can develop a consistent technique a lot better. And, but that being said, somebody who's kyo, if they adopt a bukyo mindset and not just get it, but really put in that extra struggle to understand it on a, on a detailed level. You know those, that's your Michael Jordans and your are sort of, you're really high level craftspeople. So, so I, I, I'm, I'm more of a BU type. But, but in both, both, both, both Matthew and Ryan, they have, they have keo aspects to them. I think everybody's kind of a, a mix of it. There's, it's a spectrum. But, but yeah, it's, it's kind of, it's, it's been a really great learning experience for me. I'm very humbled by, by everything. So kind of it, it really, it only would be this time, now that you reached out to me that I'd be thinking about all these things that I just talked about with you. So it's kind of a, it's kind of a interesting coincidence even though there are no coincidences. [02:50:10] Speaker B: Well, I feel like you have a lot of very fascinating wisdom in your mind and I think you need to either have your own podcast or write a book or something. I have learned so much just on this and I'm gonna re listen to this episode. Sometimes I don't listen to my own episodes because. Kind of weird to listen to yourself, but same here. [02:50:31] Speaker A: Can't do it. [02:50:32] Speaker B: This one in particular, like I'm, I'm really excited to like give it a, probably a few listens so that I can really digest some of the thoughts and ideas that you talked about. So I, I just, I really appreciate it and like all of your Japanese gardening work is so high level and it really blows me away and I feel like we're lucky to have you in the United States. I, when I first saw it, like I said before, I thought I was looking at pictures of Japan, but it's the US and so that, that is just so cool that we have you as a resource here in the, in the U.S. well, thank you. [02:51:10] Speaker A: I appreciate, appreciate those kind words. I, I feel, I, I feel so much still a beginner like, I, I, I haven't had really one instance where I felt like I figured anything out. It's everything is still very much a sort of a haze of like, is that the next peak up ahead? Or my, where am I going? So it's, it's, it's, it's, it's. I appreciate the, that you say that because that is the goal. The goal really is ideally to make it look as close to Japan as possible and to make it look like it wasn't just newly built, but it's been there for quite some time. That's really the trick. That's still something that I'm working on. [02:51:56] Speaker B: Awesome, awesome, awesome. Well, hey, thank you so much for your time, Abram. I really, really appreciate it. And like I said before, I hope if you're ever passing through, I would love to have you consult with me and help me with my bonsai garden. I would love to do some more work on it here in the future, and I really appreciate the time. And I'm gonna throw a link in for your Instagram and your website. Was there any, anything else you wanted to mention regarding, like, your business or anything like that? [02:52:31] Speaker A: That. No. I mean, if I could do any kind of promotion, I would just like to, you know, promote Hiro Aki eto. He, you know, he has a, a valid visa for the next three years to work in the United States. Of course that means, you know, obviously I, I get to go work with him every time he's here, so it's sort of by default promoting myself. But I, I just, just want to promote him in the sense that there's, you know, his second generation, six decades of experience, is fully capable in all, all types of all categories of Japanese gardens. [02:53:17] Speaker B: What he looking for, would you say? Like, what, what? [02:53:21] Speaker A: Oh, I mean, we, what does the [02:53:22] Speaker B: ideal project look like? [02:53:23] Speaker A: Luckily, there's, the project in Texas is active and there's a tea garden project that we're still working on here in San Diego. And we have some small ongoing things in the Bay Area. But he's open to anything. [02:53:38] Speaker B: I mean, [02:53:40] Speaker A: from waterfalls and koi ponds to traditional tea gardens that include the carpentry and architecture to. A lot of people talk about Zen gardens. We try to not use the word Zen as much as possible. Not that there's anything wrong with it. It's just been so misused. We don't want to contribute to the misuse. But it would be a temple garden and it would be sort of. The Japanese word for it is hojoten, which is Sort of the abbot's quarters, the garden at the Abbott's quarters, but so those kind of dry gardens, stone arrangements. And also the thing he always says, when you do really good work, everybody thinks that you're too expensive. So even if they were thinking about hiring you, they kind of shy away because they figure it's like it's all multi million dollar budgets and then you, you, you, you don't, you don't know. No one reaches out. But like, even though, like we talked before about, you know, we use a lot of traditional Japanese design methodology, we still, you know, there's still a budget, we still, you know, it's still very professional, speedy work that, you know, obviously the more budget, the cooler the things we can make for you. But it's really like kind of [02:55:04] Speaker B: not [02:55:04] Speaker A: necessarily limited by budget. I mean, obviously you need to have a certain amount because it's just these, all these elements are more expensive items. It's an intense building process, but he's really open to anything. [02:55:20] Speaker B: Fantastic. Awesome, awesome, awesome. Well, yeah, I've seen his work. It is truly incredible and so is yours and so most definitely love it. Cool. Well, thank you so much for your time. I really, really appreciate it and I hope we can stay connected. [02:55:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's really great talking to you. I've definitely enjoyed it. Enjoyed your bonsai trees, your posts on Instagram. I really like how much respect you show for the mountains and really, really Japanese gardens is basically a culture of people who have a deep love and respect for the mountains when you really boil it down. So I really appreciate the way you sort of respect, respect that, that, that part of nature. [02:56:17] Speaker B: Absolutely. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time, Abram, and I hope you have a fantastic fourth and I hope to talk to you again soon. [02:56:26] Speaker A: Yeah, me too. Can I ask you the. I don't, I, I don't even remember what I said, so I don't even know what to tell you to edit out or if anything needs to be edited out. [02:56:40] Speaker B: You know, I'll go back through and just give it a full listen and I'll take out like just little funky spots or like a restroom break. But I mean, ultimately I, I thought it was great and like a conversation is rambly and it goes up and down and it goes through different topics and I really enjoyed it and I, I think that you really are very interesting, very wise and super fun to listen to. So thank you much. [02:57:12] Speaker A: Thank you. Have a nice holiday. [02:57:15] Speaker B: You too.