Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: To baby trees.
The Black Pondo podcast.
The Black Ponda Podcast.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: If anything, this podcast is cool because it gives me an excuse to sit down and talk with cool people about bonsai, which I normally wouldn't get the chance to. And you are one of, definitely one of those cool people. And I know we've known each other for a long time, but it's great to take the time to get to sit down and pick your brain and talk with you about bonsai and everything. So I really, really appreciate you jumping on.
[00:00:50] Speaker A: Yeah, I really appreciate you having me.
This is my second one that I've done. I've done one with Air on his podcast and, and so it was really cool to be able to do this. I appreciate you having me.
[00:01:04] Speaker B: Absolutely. I listened to that episode. It was, it was a great one. I really enjoyed it.
[00:01:09] Speaker A: Yeah, it was my first one, so it was kind of my. Hopefully I'll. Hopefully I'll do better this time.
[00:01:13] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:01:15] Speaker A: Cool.
[00:01:15] Speaker B: Well, I guess, you know, there's several things that I would love to dive into with you.
Would you give me just, just a super brief background on, on yourself? And I guess I was curious who have, who have made the biggest impact on your bonsai journey? I know. Well, I believe you're mostly self taught and you've been into bonsai for, for quite a while, but would you give me a little bit of background on, on those two areas?
[00:01:40] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. So I started doing bonsai when I was about 14 years old. I was in 8th grade or so. My grandfather pretty much got me started. I won't go into how he got into it, but basically I saw that he had a pretty extensive collection in his backyard and I don't know, I just saw his trees and thought they were cool and decided that I would get into it. I, I guess I'm. I'm sort of unlike a lot of people in the US who got started by watching Karate Kid. Although I've seen the movie, of course. I, I didn't really get started that way. I, I had actually, you know, really picked it up from my grandfather. And then, yeah, I, I actually joined a bonsai club when I was about 15. It was Fuji Bonsai Club in Berkeley, which is actually no longer in existence.
But my first early teachers were mainly Jimmy Inadomi, who was kind of one of the senseis there, and along with Dennis Makashima and Mas Imaizumi, who two of which have now passed away. Dennis is still around, but the other two have been passed away now for several years. So that's sort of where I got started. And then I guess it just evolved into me really just practicing a lot, reading a lot of books.
You know, I wasn't as fortunate as some of the folks nowadays with bonsai. We have so many different avenues to learn from and there's so many great professionals in the United States now that we can take classes from. And when I was getting started, it was mainly just the old Japanese folks that were teaching and you know, Kathy Shaner was around, but that was, that was pretty much the only professional in, in my area that I had access to until maybe a few years into my journey. And then Boone kind of hit the scene and I did some classes with him alone over the years, kind of sporadically. But I guess for me I just really enjoyed doing bonsai myself in my backyard and kind of just geeking out on it myself, you know.
[00:03:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, so would you. So you really haven't had one set teacher. It's really been kind of learning from a of lot, lots of different areas and a lot of working yourself and, or, or, or working on trees yourself and a lot of being self taught, is that correct?
[00:03:56] Speaker A: Yeah, I would say so. I mean, I've had multiple teachers throughout the years, but no one for any like super extensive period of time. You know, I, I guess I, I used to go to shows a lot and whenever there were big name, you know, artists coming into town, I would always, you know, try to go and watch their demonstrations, study their work. And I'm a big visual learner. So like for me, like with wiring for example, I mean, I picked it up pretty quickly. I mean obviously I'm sure as with all of us, we could always use some pointers or, or learn new techniques with wiring. But a lot of my wiring is just from practice and from just looking at other people's work. And it's pretty easy to tell who does bad work and who does good work just by looking at it. You know, you can, you know, can kind of tell. So that's how I, for me, a lot of bonsai was just visually picking things up. And that's kind of how I've always been. I can kind of see, especially when it comes to bonsai, I can kind of see something done one time and then I, I won't say I'm perfect at it, but I, I can do it and usually after a few tries, do it, do it pretty well. So I think I'm fortunate in that respect because I know trying to teach wiring to people, I've. You can. There's some folks where it just, they just never pick it up. It's just not their, you know, the hand eye coordination isn't there, so it's tough. But, but yeah, I mean, I think just really visual learner is something that I've always, with bonsai especially, so.
[00:05:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, that's very evident. Your, your wiring is very clean. I've always been super impressed by your wiring and styling. And I think it's also evident that you won that Joshua Roth contest. What was that, 2023?
[00:05:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I was at the GSBF convention in 2023.
[00:05:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Great work there. Congratulations on winning that. And I've always been very impressed with your work and I think even more so that you haven't had that traditional apprenticeship or even maybe like a Set 1 teacher for a long period of time. So. Awesome.
[00:05:59] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you. I appreciate it. It was quite an honor. And you know, I just, I guess applied all the, the techniques I've learned over the years and, and you know, really when it comes down to it, just styling a tree, it, and I'll attribute this a lot to Boone, is, is just the structural work, you know, that's the, that's the most important part. And not trying to, although with junipers you can get away with it a little bit more than with other trees, but, you know, just placing branches where they originate and trying to, you know, create a good hierarchy of branches. You know, like not trying to, trying to make the apex out of the, the highest part of the tree and not like bringing a branch up from the side that has other branches, you know, that are higher than that. And so your, your overall structure just turns crappy over the years. So I, I, I guess when I have styled that tree in the competition, I just try to think, okay, what's the, Let me find the best line from the base of the tree to the apex and you know, try to create taper in the branches by cutting back. And you know, of course, if it was my own tree and I wasn't doing a competition, I probably would have cut it back a little bit more to try and push the pads further back into the tree. But for sake of the competition, you know, I think I was trying to create more of a visually appealing tree immediately, which I, to be quite honest, I don't like to do. But I think that's, that was the nature of the competition. So I think if I would have tried to do it on a more slower approach, maybe the finished product wouldn't have been so good.
[00:07:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I really like that you bring up the, the point about not or setting really good quality structure. And I think all the points that you made were very logical and intelligent. And I agree wholeheartedly there.
I feel like structure is extremely important and especially with junipers.
It seems like with junipers it's easy to get away because there's. You can make the foliage hide everything.
[00:07:58] Speaker A: Right.
[00:07:58] Speaker B: But I'm not a fan of this. The spaghetti bringing branches all over the place to create pore structure and fill the tree in. I don't like that. However, I do think that a little bit of that is okay, but it has to be in decent taste and it can't just be all over the place. And I do think that there are some people that they cheat a little too much with that structure. And I'm not, not a massive fan of that strategy.
[00:08:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, and I, and I'll kind of dovetail off that and just say that's sort of why I, I guess I have to be careful with what I say. But I, I don't. I guess I'll just say I don't. And that's why I don't like doing demos.
I, I like to take my time and I like to, even though I can wire quickly, I, I don't feel like my best work is done under a two hour time constraint.
And, and that's why I really like the competition. You know, we had all day and I didn't feel rushed. I didn't feel like I, I had to make really quick decisions. I felt like I could really look at the tree and, and study it and find the best lines. But yeah, I agree with you. Too often I see demonstrations where the overall silhouette looks, you know, really good, but then when you look underneath it, it's like, it's kind of a mess with branches just crossing over each other and originating from the back of the tree to the front and front to the back. And it's just like, oh my gosh, it's just kind of a. I just look at it and go, this is pretty now. But you know, three, four, five, seven years down the road, all I'm going to have to do is just recreate all of this all over again.
And it's, it just, it just creates a headache, you know, and, and I think that also sort of sends the wrong message to people that are new in Bonsai because they look at that and they think, oh, it's such a pretty finished, you know, demonstration tree. But I don't think they're getting the right instruction I guess, per se, when they, when they see that. So that's, that's kind of why I don't like demos.
[00:09:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with you 100% in all those areas right there.
And yeah. What information are we giving to new people getting into Bonsai?
It seems like that would not be the best thing to do, I do feel like, with a demo. Yeah. I guess I'm curious, is there any type of demo that you think does work well? Or like, if you were to set up a demo or if you were going to talk with the club about doing a demo, do you have any thoughts about how you would, how you would make a better version of a demo?
[00:10:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I do actually, and I've kind of mention these things a few times and they. The clubs don't seem to like it because I don't think kind of all boils down to like a money thing. You know, they want to make money and I, and I totally get that. You know, that makes complete sense for me. I think the best thing for demonstrations would be to do like a demo on a technique, like, rather than styling a tree, maybe. I think in the GSBF convention coming up, I want to say it's JT that's maybe doing the demo or if I'm. If I'm wrong, I apologize. But it's like a fake tree that just branches on it where you just practice wiring.
Interesting. And I think that would be really cool because you could truly show the wiring because there's no living foliage on it, there's nothing to block the view. So people could really see, you know, transitioning from like structural wire to, to medium gauge wire to smaller wire towards the tips, grafting, air layering, defoliation, thinning a juniper, decandling a pine, all those repotting and, you know, maybe repotting more of a established tree opposed to like a yamadori going into a bonsai pot for the first time. Because those are obviously two, like very different ways of repotting and soil mixes. Talking about that, like, those are all things that I think would be super informative. We just need to figure out a way to make money off it for the clubs.
[00:11:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:59] Speaker A: But in terms of like, demos, the only one, the only model that I think really works well is what they do at the Trophy in Belgium, how they have like, really, really awesome material, like stuff that you and I would be like, you know, chomping at the bit to get just to have in our own collection.
They pretty much start in the morning and they go all day, kind of like I did for the competition. You know, it's like a six, seven, eight hour thing. And they, you know, the different artists talk about what they're going, their plan is, and then they go about it. People can come and go as they please. They can sit for an.
Take a break, come back for the finish, you know, whatever they want to do. But I think that's a little bit better because it gives the. The artist the ability to really, like, take their time and focus and not have to, like, pump out a. A finished tree in. In an hour or two.
[00:12:43] Speaker B: Totally.
Yeah. I like that they have multiple people up there as well.
So, you know, there's just. If you're really working on a tree, sometimes during that process, it's not the most exciting thing. And so, hey, maybe I want to watch, you know, this person wire for a little bit, but then I want to see how they're cutting back this other tree. And it. It kind of takes the pressure off of just one individual. So I. I like the model that they work on that. That they do over there as well.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. And it's. And it's different artists. You know, usually they have like, a European artist, they'll have a Japanese artist and an American artist. And so you're getting, like, you know, different types of work or different approaches, I guess I would say, to the work. Typically, usually all of the trees turn out really nice, but, you know, different stylistic approaches, you know, to bonsai. And so I think that's good. And the different species that are worked on, I think is really cool. It's not always just like, you know, a row of junipers. It's usually like a juniper and a pine or, you know, it's. It's not just the same tree. All it's like here, I feel like when we have our conventions, it's like, okay, it's a California juniper or it's Sierra juniper, like, every time.
And you're like, okay, great, but maybe something else would be cool also.
[00:14:01] Speaker B: For sure, for sure.
Yeah. The demo is interesting and, like, I get where it originated, and it's really fun to see a before and after of a tree that just looks all raw and unkempt and not cleaned up yet. And then take that and then make it into a beautiful bonsai with everything wired out, all the live veins cleaned up, the deadwood cleaned up.
But realistically, I feel like there are many steps in that process, and usually demos don't give enough time to even do, like, one of those processes.
And So I just feel like they jam everything in together. There's a lot of pressure to make the tree look good, whereas, like, in. If it was in your workshop, you wouldn't necessarily take it that far. There's a lot of pressure on the demonstrator to take the tree too far as well. You know, maybe do things that would make the tree unhealthy and then. Or maybe make the foliage go juvenile as opposed to cutting less back.
[00:15:06] Speaker A: Right.
[00:15:06] Speaker B: So, yeah, a lot, A lot of issues with the demo, but I also understand it and like, I don't want to throw too much shade at anybody that likes a demo because, I mean, I love watching a demo, a good demo, but I also see that I just, I don't know if it's the best model, and I like your approach a lot better. Let's take a specific topic and let's really hone in on that topic and learn that. That issue that topic well and focus in on that as opposed to, like, doing all these things at once and not having enough time to do it.
[00:15:40] Speaker A: Yeah, and I, And I agree with you too. Like, I, I also enjoy a good demo. I mean, that's, that's really what I grew up in bonsai watching was demos and, and you know, I saw, I saw good ones, I saw bad ones, I saw kind of in between and. Yeah, no, I mean, demos are great. It's. It's just that, you know, I, I don't feel like you truly get all the skill of the artist because they're, they're kind of, like you said, they're kind of rushed and, and, and forced to kind of produce a product that looks good and. Because, you know, at the end of the day, right, they're going to raffle the tree or they're going to auction the tree and, and the better it looks, the more people are going to spend on either a raffle or an auction. So I think that's where like, that pressure comes in. And that's, and that's the part that I don't like. I, I don't like. I don't like creating bonsai under pressure. Just not, Not a. Yeah, not. Not fun. It's not fun to do it that way. So.
Yeah, but I do. I will say that part of the demos that I do like is imparting knowledge, you know, like talking about what I know, talking about the choices that I make. The wire, the how I wire, how, you know, insecticide, fungicide, soil mixes, you know, all those different things. Like, I really enjoy speaking and conveying information, but doing the work part of it is not my favorite because I truly do my best work when I'm just at home in my garage and I'm by myself for sure.
[00:17:05] Speaker B: Totally get that.
[00:17:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:06] Speaker B: Cool.
Hey, Mike, so what are your long term goals with bonsai?
[00:17:15] Speaker A: Gosh, that's a.
Or, you know, it's. No, no, that's. I mean it's interesting question because I, my goals have kind of changed over the years. You know, I, I used to have a pretty sizable collection. You know, probably had about 85 to 100 trees and. And then I got married and had a kid and life priorities changed. So, you know, sort of bonsai took a bit of a back seat to my family and in my job. I, you know, started. I was, you know, at a certain level in my career for many years and then starting in 2016 I started to just promote through the ranks and obviously the higher up you go, the, the more, the more work you have and the more pressure and sort of that comes your way. So.
So I really started to like condense my collection, if you will, and sold a lot of trees. Some trees I wish I wouldn't have sold. But then again, you know, like, I don't.
It is the decision that I made and, and I think it just. I like to keep trees at a high level and I think it's easier to do that or at least it's more. If maybe easier is a wrong word, but more manageable for me.
And it makes it more enjoyable because I don't feel the pressure of like, oh my God, I have, you know, 25 really good black pines and it's June and I have to decandle all these pines. Like oh my God, how am I going to get this done right?
So, so I guess my, my. I used to want to have a big collection with a lot of variety and now I'm more into like a smaller collection with it still with a decent amount of variety and. But I guess long term goal would be to slowly increase my collection again as I hit retirement and, and maybe start to do bonsai.
I don't know if I would say like on a professional level because I, I haven't had that formal training in Japan. But I mean more, you know, do it more often, like teach more, go to, you know, do more club demos, do more show demos, do more things at conventions, travel more and maybe like start to grow some really good material because I don't feel like we have that great a material nowadays in bonsai to, to work on. So, you know, maybe start doing something like that. So that's kind of like my, my long term goal.
[00:19:42] Speaker B: Nice. I love all that. I kind of feel like I'm maybe in the same boat to some degree. After my career ends, I would like to transition into bonsai. And I don't know exactly what that looks like, but there's probably going to be some teaching, some growing, some. I don't know, a lot of just spending time with my trees, hopefully. And I'm really looking forward to that.
[00:20:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
And I will say, like another long term goal is to, to have my backyard look like a combination of yours and Sam Tans. They're both like super well done gardens. And even though I haven't been to your place, I've been to Sam's, but I've seen pictures and, and I can kind of visualize what you have going on there. And of course I know your trees. So I mean, my long term goal is to redo my backyard and, and get it kind of fancied up because I, I would like to have, you know, even as I expand my collection as I get older in retirement, I still don't really want to have more than about 30 trees. Like, I think that that's a, I think that's like a good number to, you know, it's enough to keep you, keep you busy, to keep you dangerous, but, but not enough to like overwhelm you to where you can still have a life and go on vacation with your family and do things with, with friends and stuff and. Because bonsai is a big part of my life, but it's not, you know, my whole life, obviously.
[00:21:05] Speaker B: For sure, for sure. Yeah. No, I think that's a good number of trees and depends on the size of them, you know, but it's a good number.
[00:21:13] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. For sure.
[00:21:16] Speaker B: So.
Okay, another question for you. I was just thinking about this the other day. Is like, is it weird that we are into bonsai? And I feel like part of this.
I don't want you to take offense to this, but you almost look like a guy that wouldn't be so into bonsai.
And I kind of feel like when I, I tell a lot of my friends, hey, I'm hardcore into bonsai and they just look like, you know, if it's the first time I'm telling them, they think it's, it's kind of weird or strange or odd. And I have a whole bunch of friends that are into like fantasy football, fast cars, watches, golf, like all these other things. And bonsai Is just, it's kind of random, but it just like bit me so hard and I kind of get a similar feeling that that happened to you. Is it, is that kind of the case? Would you say for yourself?
[00:22:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I'd say 100. Just as a side note, I'm, I'm into golf and watches too, so I, I, I, I unfortunately have three really expensive hobbies. But yeah, no, I, I've got that same exact thing. I can't really explain why it bit me so hard. I think I'm in the same boat with you. I don't really know what about.
Can't really say it's any one thing. It's probably a combination of things.
But yeah, I mean, everybody that meets me is, they're like, what, dude, you, you have, you have bonsai trees. Like, you're, you know, you're a cop and you, you know, you're like, it just, just doesn't seem like that would be your thing. And, and surprisingly enough, like, bonsai is something that has really been therapeutic for me over the years. You know, 23 years in law enforcement, and it's been something that I could kind of always turn to when I just needed to zone out or relax. And although, as you know, when you do bonsai at a high level, it's not always relaxing because it's when you're working on a really good tree, like, you don't want to make the wrong decision. But there are certain aspects to bonsai where I can just turn on autopilot. Like, you know, if I'm repotting a tree or granted, as long as it's not a super complicated repot, but if it's just a run of the mill repot, like, I can pretty, pretty much turn on autopilot and have a good time and just zone out. Or if I'm like pruning a tree, like, that's it just, it's something that's always been very calming for me. And yeah, I, I, I think we're in the same boat. I think the fact that we're also our age, I think plays into it because I think a lot of people associate bonsai, which is like older folks, older, you know, the older Japanese community, the older community, the retired community, I guess you would say. And so because there aren't a lot of young people in it, and which I think is actually changing a lot, you see it a ton in Europe and, and hope. I'm hoping that trend will sort of wear off on us here because it's like, you Know, so many young artists in Europe and young folks. And when I say young, I mean not like super young, but, you know, like the 30s and 40 ranges. Like, there's a lot of people doing bonsai in that range.
[00:24:15] Speaker B: Yeah, no, 100%. I think we need that young blood infused into the scene to really. I think that's part of, or a piece of the puzzle in terms of like pushing our. Pushing the art and craft forward. And so, yeah, hopefully we can get some more young blood in here.
[00:24:32] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's always like, I don't want to. I don't want to touch on a nerve by saying this, but I'll try to say it politically correct as possible. But that's why I think, you know, in bonsai, I noticed over the years, I see it more so now where like, the younger people are, are really getting a shot and people are bringing them in and doing demos and, and really giving them an opportunity. But for a number of years, when I was early on in my kind of bonsai journey, you know, first maybe 10 or 15 years, the kind of old guard was not very. They were pretty reluctant to give up their. I don't want to call it necessarily fame, but their, Their spotlight, I guess. And I think that kind of slowed the art form down. I think it kind of hindered it a little bit because it didn't allow like, the upand comers. We. It was kind of like we were just like laying in the rafters and not really being allowed to, you know, showcase our work.
And, And I think that that sort of maybe slowed things down or, or kind of hurt the. The art form, you know, for progression in terms of the Bay Area kind of bonsai. But.
[00:25:41] Speaker B: That'S so interesting. I never really thought about that and I guess I have feel I. I do feel like there's maybe more young people that are coming back from Japan and getting online and making YouTube videos and getting involved with Instagram. And I don't know if I've just noticed that because of the online presence or what the deal is exactly, but I never really thought about it like that. And I haven't been into bonsai as long as you, I guess. So that's. That's interesting to note.
[00:26:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it's. It's like the Internet has really been huge for, I think for bonsai because not only has it connected us to people across the world that we normally wouldn't really be connected with. Right. Like my. When I was young in a bonsai, before all the social media stuff hit you know, you only connected to these people through a video that was made or a book or if they came to visit. Right. Or, you know, maybe in an email or something like that, but you never really connected with them. Like, I could pretty much, you know, go to my Instagram and message a Japanese professional tomorrow and, you know, a lot of them will respond and say, you know, I could compliment their work or ask them about their work. And, and a lot of times they're gracious enough to respond and, and it's, it's kind of cool where I could never get that feedback early on. So, yeah, we're super lucky with, with the way bonsai has evolved in terms of, like, technology and stuff.
[00:27:15] Speaker B: Yeah, most definitely. Yeah. I mean, I do think that there, there is a, a place for everybody in Bonsai, any age. And I think it's really good if we have a variety of different people in different ages. But I do, I. I feel like I have seen just a lack of younger individuals being interested, and it's really cool and refreshing to see younger people get into it. And, and I think that we need those people and those are going to be the next generation.
But I do think it's. It's good for all ages to be into bonsai and the people that may be older in bonsai or are older and into bonsai, a lot of times those individuals have a lot of experience and they have a lot of time in bonsai. And so I think there's a great deal that we can learn from them as well. And so I just want to say. I'm not trying to say we only need young people in bonsai. We need all ages, for sure.
[00:28:11] Speaker A: No, totally. Like, and I think that's what, I think that's what makes bonsai so special is that I have.
Because there's so many different age ranges in bonsai that I've been able to connect with people and really become like, lifelong friends with a lot of folks who I would have absolutely never met and never come across if not for bonsai. Like, I. They're, you know, just from totally different walks of life, totally different age ranges. You know, you're talking 10, 15, 20, 40 years older than me where, like, I would have, like, why would I ever come across that person, you know, if not for bonsai? So, yeah, no, I, I totally don't want it to just be young at all. I love the different age ranges and, and I have so much respect for some of the old timers that have really been like, pioneers of bonsai.
You Know like the, my early teachers and you know like Johnny Uchida who is a really good friend of mine, I mean, had his nursery in Hayward for you know, 40 plus years. I mean so many, so many bonsai changed hands through that nursery over the years that it's just like it's, it's unfathomable. I couldn't even tell you. It's hundreds of, hundreds of trees that have changed hands over the years at that nursery that are now like very good trees. Like matter of fact some of the, some of the great trees that have been at the, the past expos have been trees that either came through that nursery or, or at one point were there. It's, it's really cool to have the, the old timers for sure.
[00:29:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
Yeah. Speaking of that nursery, what else can you tell me about that nursery? I know you and Johnny seem to have a really tight relationship which was awesome to see and hear about, but what else do you know about that nursery? I visited it a few times when I would go up and visit Boone, but I think that was kind of towards the tail ends and so I don't really know the history or much about it other than, than a couple visits.
So.
[00:30:08] Speaker A: So actually it was, and pardon me if my, my date is wrong but I believe it was founded in 1971 or I, I guess I would say opened in 1971.
And you know, Johnny was not a, like a Japanese trained bonsai practitioner or, or anything like that. He, his main focus was Japanese landscape design. So his, you know, although I, I think he made a lot of money in bonsai as well. But I think that his initial focus was you know, as a florist and he had that just sort of evolved into a bonsai nursery. And you know, I think a lot of his money he made early on was, was as a result of his landscape business.
And then I think he, he, you know, he, he was one of the earlier members of a lot of the, the you know, long standing bonsai clubs like Fuji Bonsai Club, Yamato Bonsai Kai in Hayward.
And then I know Johnny kind of evolved into teaching at the adult school, teaching bonsai classes there.
I think it was in San Lorenzo if I'm not mistaken. And it was like a, a night school basically and he taught, taught bonsai. There obviously was a sensei at Yamato for many years. But, but Johnny was like a, I met him when I was 15. My grandfather took me to his nursery one day and, and I think that just started our friendship and I Was kind of hooked as soon as I got my driver's license at 16, I was pretty much driving there like once a week, if not.
Yeah, yeah, usually like once a week. I would say, you know, three or four times a month and maybe more. And just to. Because it was like the only, you know, bonsai nursery around, and that was close to me, and it was. I could go there and. And work on trees and.
And Johnny was really gracious, too. Like, he. He knew.
He knew where his limitations were. And as I started to get better with bonsai, like, he would. He would say, you know, like, hey, you. You wired better than me. You. Why are my tracing me? I'm like, okay, why not?
So it was. It was. It was really cool. And then we just became very good friends. And he used to call me his. His. His little boy. This is like a. Like a. Kind of like a son. Like a father figure, you know, and it was really. It was, I think, a special relationship that we had.
And, you know, he's just a very.
Just a really sweet guy, genuine guy. Wore his heart on his sleeve. And I think. I don't think there's too many people that met Johnny that didn't like him.
[00:33:00] Speaker B: Yeah, Always seemed like a really great guy. When I met him, I just didn't get to spend very much time with him. But that's some really cool stories that you have there. And it sounds like you guys had a really awesome relationship.
Did he. You have a couple of his trees now, or he passed a couple trees down to you or one. Just one.
[00:33:23] Speaker A: Yeah. So I. I have.
So the tree actually originated with Jimmy and Adomi.
So Jimmy collected. It's a Sierra juniper that he collected.
I want to say mid set, mid to late 70s.
I don't know the exact date, but it was definitely a tree he collected long ago, and he had it for many years in his collection. And then when Jimmy started to get older, Johnny purchased a tree from him.
And I believe Johnny had it for around 10 or 12 years.
And then I purchased it from Johnny in 2017. So I've had it now for about eight years.
And it was. It was tough. It was a decision I had to make with the tree. But it's probably.
I don't want to, like, rank it because I know there's so many good trees out there in the United States. But I would say for me, like, the top five trunks I've ever seen, like, in terms of, like, natural deadwood and shari and. And, you know, there's no carving on this trunk at all. So it's like everything that's there is, like, completely done by nature, and all the interest is in, like, the lower portion of the tree. So I made the decision to graft it, and it was a tough decision because the native foliage looked really nice, and I had it pretty dialed in.
And. But I just realized like, that the tree was too tall for the trunk. It was. The foliage was too far away from the main focal point of the tree. And so back in kind of like 2021, I think I made the decision to bring it to Peter T. To help me with approach grafting it.
[00:35:21] Speaker B: Did. Did Daisaku. Was he one of the ones that made. Made a suggestion, or did you converse about with him about grafting and lowering the tree, compacting it as much as possible? Did I hear that right?
[00:35:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did. I think I might have told you that story. But.
So Daisaku came and he was here visiting for one of the bib shows, I think.
And he and I did a styling on it. I think it was like January of 18, or maybe it was January of 17. I can't remember exactly because I'm not sure. I don't remember exactly the month of when I purchased the tree in. In 2017. But.
But Daisaku, it was kind of funny. And I'll.
By no means. I don't mean this in like a derogatory way, but it. I. I.
Daisaku and I have a great relationship. And I. And his kind of broken English is really funny how he said it, but he.
He said.
He said something like, sierra juniper, good tree worth 10,000.
You graft with itoigawa worth 30,000.
And of course, you know, like, that wasn't the decision to do it wasn't about the money because I'm not interested in selling it. The bulk of the conversation was yes, to bring the foliage closer to the main trunk to create a shorter tree. And so it was hard because knew it would mean like a long journey because, you know, grafting a tree over is. Is a. You know, you can't. It's going to take a long time to get to looking good again.
And.
But it went from 44 inches down to like, I think it's at 36 right now.
[00:37:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:11] Speaker A: And so I just, you know, I thought about it and, and I really trust what he has to say and his opinion. And obviously he's extremely talented bonsai master. And so I. Between him and Peter T's advice, I was like, well, if two guys that I really respect Are telling me I should do this then, and I'm leaning towards it as well. I. I can't imagine the three of us are wrong, so let's do it.
[00:37:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I think you made the right decision there. And I feel like often with junipers, it makes a lot of sense to compact the tree more. Like, I feel like I tend to like that look better. And I think that with your tree in particular, it just really is going to frame the deadwood a whole lot better. Like, the foliage being lower and it created a really cool, like, tension on top.
So, yeah, what was left is. Is really interesting and cool. And I think just overall, I love Sierra juniper foliage. I want at least one Sierra juniper with its native foliage. And it. That tree looked like it had really nice Sierra foliage. Genetically speaking, however, you can't beat the itoagawa. And I know on couple episodes with Peter T. He really dived deep into that whole subject, but I think you made a great choice there.
[00:38:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you. And I definitely won't. Peter did a far better job of explaining it than. Than I could.
And I know he already did that.
You know, it's.
[00:38:37] Speaker B: It's.
[00:38:38] Speaker A: It's tough because I know a lot of people love the native foliage, but I was. I actually was told many years ago, probably about 20 years ago, I was at a workshop at Jim Gremill's nursery up in Occidental, and Marco Invernisi was here visiting, and I brought, like, a Sierra juniper to work on with him. And. And it was a decent tree. But, you know, he told me, he said, if you're smart and you want to get ahead of the game, you should graft all of your. Any tree you have collected, you should graft it with kishu or toy gawa. He literally was like, don't waste your time. Just do it now, and 20 years from now, you're going to have, like, spectacular trees. And I wish I would have listened.
[00:39:19] Speaker B: Yeah, good advice.
[00:39:20] Speaker A: But, you know, but, you know, it's funny, that being said, I was actually having a.
A conversation with Sam Tan the other day about grafting, because Sam really likes to work on the native foliage. And. And of course, that's his thing. And, and if. If that makes him happy, then totally more power to him.
But he made a really good point. He was like, you know, a lot of the. The really prized bonsai, the trees that win, like, kokufu expositions are. Are trees that not just have really great trunks, but they have really aged branching.
And that's. And that's very that's very factually true. Right. And that is the only problem with you know, like approach grafting like I did with my Sierra is that probably I might get to see this tree reach some aged branching by the time I'm in my 80s maybe.
But I'll never get to see like the super aged branches. That'll have to be whoever takes it on after me.
So I think there's something to be said for I, I definitely think grafting is a big A plus. But I think that if you have a piece of yamadori and it has really like interesting old branches and you can cyan graft onto those, like that should absolutely be the approach, like stay away from approach grafting, Scion graft onto the already like cool branches if you have them. Because you know, unless you live till you're 200 years old, like you're never going to see those branches really take on a super aged look.
[00:40:56] Speaker B: Yeah, most definitely. I would completely agree with that 100%, wholeheartedly. And I guess with approach grafting a good first step is really to get them thick proportional to the trunk, which takes a long time and it's just a lot of growing them out.
[00:41:12] Speaker A: Right.
[00:41:14] Speaker B: And there's strategies and techniques so you probably have to keep some growth close to the interior and let something run on them.
[00:41:21] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:41:22] Speaker B: But still, yeah, a hundred percent. It's not going to be a branch like if you collected something out of the mountains, not going to have that age and mochikomi and character to those branches. If it's an approach graft, it'll just take a long, long time to do that. So yeah, scion grafting, I do see the benefit in that. That makes sense to me for sure.
[00:41:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think like, and there's nothing wrong with saying, you know, do both, right. Like you can have a piece of yamadori where you scion graph and approach graph. Right. Because if you want to lower the tree and make it shorter, well then maybe you put an approach graph. But say the lower branches are really interesting. Well then you scion graph those. Right. So nothing to say you can't, you can't do both, right. Just you know, don't limit yourself just to approach grafting I guess is the point.
[00:42:11] Speaker B: Most definitely. Most definitely. Yeah.
[00:42:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:15] Speaker B: I think one thing that, that maybe we don't talk about enough is branches and specifically talking about conifer here, but branches that have both gin and shari on them, I know they have a term in Japanese for that and I don't remember what it is. I'm not sure if you remember, but I think that those branches are extremely valuable and improve the value and aesthetic of the. The tree. And it's, it's really cool when we can find those types of branches and then, yeah, 100%. You wouldn't want to swap that really old Jin and sh and live vein branch for like a brand new approach graph. That would not be very exciting.
But you could scion graft it, right?
[00:42:59] Speaker A: Yeah, like, totally. If you had like a really cool feature branch that had like a twisting lifeline on it or something like, you know, you would be. It would be super like, I think foolish or detrimental to the design to get rid of that and replace it with an approach graph. Unless. Unless there's like an intentionality behind it. Right. Like with my tree, the whole reason for doing it was to.
Because there were some older interesting branches, but they were too high on the tree, they were too thick.
And just, just keeping them wouldn't have made sense, I guess I would say. And so, and that. That's why I went the way I did. But because Peter and I did talk about that. We talked about, you know, maybe scion grafting in some areas. And then just to achieve the overall aesthetic that I was looking for like this, there was no choice but to just approach graft.
[00:43:48] Speaker B: So. Yeah, yeah. I mean, personally, I'm like, I like all different types of trees, all different types of styles and everything. But one thing that I just is undeniable for me is just powerful trees. And I feel like the way to make a powerful tree is generally to compact it almost as much as possible. Like, there's. There's a point where it's too much, but with a lot of yamadori, it seems like the way to go is to. To really compact and frame around the interesting parts.
And I think, I think it just makes it more powerful. So I, I think you definitely made the right choice there.
One thing also I think that's interesting is I feel like with a lot of yamadori, we either use the bottom portion, like the best tree possible out of a piece of yamadori. It's either on the bottom or it's on the top.
And there's definitely exceptions like Peter was talking about.
We could take big collected yamadori and we could graft a whole bunch of. A whole bunch of roots and foliage and make a bunch of shohin out of a big tree.
But I feel like generally speaking, either to make the best tree out of a piece of yamadori, you're either going to compact it or you're going to use the top half, maybe if there's a weak base. And you would, you would potentially root graft and foliage graft or use the native foliage, but root graft. And then. So you either use the top or you use the bott. And either you're. Either way, you're making a shorter, smaller tree out of the material and not necessarily like using foliage that's way up high.
[00:45:29] Speaker A: Yeah. And it just, I think it just all depends on where the best parts of the base are, where the, where the best sharia is, where the best light, you know, lifeline and deadwood interaction is. I mean, obviously you can't always have the best of all the worlds in the front of the tree, but, you know, which is another interesting kind of thing to. That we can go off on is, is just, you know, there used to be like a belief when I was younger in bonsai that any piece of yamadori, like if you couldn't see a portion of the lifeline entering the soil, that it looked like a tanuki and it was no good and blah, blah, blah. And a lot of times I would see like, you look at the back of the tree and you'd be like, wow, that is. The deadwood back here is so impressive and it's so much better than the other side. But the tree would get. The other front, would get used solely because there was a lifeline that entered the soil in front of, in the front.
Although in a perfect world, that's of course the way I would go. Like, if I could do that with every piece of yamadori, I would, I absolutely would. But I also wouldn't do it if it meant sacrificing the best deadwood to the viewer. So for sure, that's just my feeling on that.
[00:46:40] Speaker B: I think you said that perfectly, completely agree. And I've heard Ryan Neal say that before too. And I think that's the right approach. Use the best deadwood with the coolest, best movement, best deadwood, live vein interaction.
Go with that. Live vein doesn't have to be shown entering the soil, although it is a positive if it does.
[00:47:03] Speaker A: Sure. And.
[00:47:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Nice.
You know, one thing that I was, I think I was kind of daydreaming about earlier today, actually after read. I don't know if you read Michael Hagedorn. Has he. He wrote a blog post like today or yesterday or maybe the day before about grafting black pine onto Ponderosa. Did you catch that one?
[00:47:28] Speaker A: I have not, but I'd Love to. Maybe you can send me the link for it. I'd love to read it.
[00:47:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was a really good short little article. And essentially I. He's talking about little pine and grafting black pine onto ponderosa and a few observations that he's made. And he kind of ends the article by saying he wishes he would have grafted more black pine onto ponderosa. So ultimately looks at it as a positive thing and I think it's a really good idea.
But one interesting thing is that he says that the needles on black pine get thicker when you have it onto. On ponderosa roots and a ponderosa trunk.
Okay. And that just started making me think. And the reason he says is he thinks that black pine on its own roots is not as strong and vigorous and powerful as black pine grafted onto ponderosa.
So the ponderosa pine roots make the foliage stronger and different. It makes it change. Right. So they're thicker needles when it's grafted onto ponderosa.
[00:48:38] Speaker A: Okay, interesting.
[00:48:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I thought that was very interesting. And it made me think that when we root graft onto junipers, this is random daydreaming. I think that we, like a lot of times I see people grafting Ito, Ogawa or Kishu onto junipers, like onto Sierra junipers using the roots.
And I think that that works. But it made me just wonder and it made me think like, okay, well, if ponderosa pine, if black pine gets stronger and thicker needles on ponderosa base with ponderosa roots, well, we should probably be grafting the strongest juniper roots possible onto our native junipers if we're going to root graft.
And then I was also thinking about like, okay, well with fruit trees, they always graft a different root stock onto whatever fruit tree you want, right. And a lot of times it will make it like more cold hardy or it will be more repellent of like non beneficial nematodes or, you know, we'll have some advantage of grafting different roots and it will make the tree grow stronger ultimately. And so I was just thinking like, you know, if I was going to root graft a Sierra juniper, for me, Sierra juniper grow really strong. And I wonder if I should be grafting Sierra juniper roots onto a Sierra juniper trunk.
[00:50:09] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, I've heard this discussed with, you know, when I. Because I've been a member of Mariah Live since it, since its inception. And Ryan's a really, a really good teacher.
Well, obviously his work is, is great too, but he's, he's a really good teacher when it Comes to like, explaining things. And I remember he similar. On a similar line to what you're speaking about. He. He discussed about how, when he was talking about soil mixes and how the coarseness of roots kind of directly relate to the coarseness of the foliage. So like, in other words, if you have roots growing very vigorously and very coarse that you're going to have that the foliage will sort of take on a more coarser appearance as well.
And similarly, like, if you have a finer root structure, that you'll have finer growth. And I think, and I've noticed that over the years with like, Sierra or California, like, if you, if you change your soil mix a little bit and, you know, like the one, one. One mix that Boone uses is excellent and works really well for just general growing of bonsai. But I think if you have a tree that's in refinement and you want to try and compact the foliage and it's a native species, let's say, because, you know, it's like a kishore toy gal is going to compact pretty easily on its own. If you want those native species that you need to kind of slow that those roots or have them bifurcate and become finer and then they sort of mimic. So maybe that's a similar reason to why the black pine takes on the. Or starts to get thicker needles that Michael's talking about in terms of like, because the ponderosa roots are obviously coarser than a black pine. And so maybe that, maybe that's why it happens. I, I'm not, I'm not a, you know, a horticulturalist, so I, I couldn't speak in terms of, like, scientifically why it's happening, but I guess if you just look at. In terms of that, that makes sense to me.
[00:52:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. And now you got me thinking. Well, if you wanted finer Sierra juniper foliage, what if you grab. If you grafted Ito gawa roots onto it, would your foliage get much finer or not?
[00:52:23] Speaker A: I don't know.
I really don't know. I've never tried. It might be. It might be a good experiment for you.
[00:52:31] Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think one thing about bonsai is, like, it takes so much time and experience.
Like, there's so many questions out there that it's hard to make, like, a definitive statement and say, like, this is true a hundred percent, or even knowing if we are doing things completely optimal. You know, like, there's always another thing you could be doing or, or probably like doing something better.
And it just takes so much experience to learn these things.
[00:53:06] Speaker A: I think it just really comes down to doing it right. And I know what, you know, I think I can speak to like what's worked really well for me over the years because one thing I've, I've always prided myself on is I've always been able to keep trees relatively healthy. And, and I think that has a lot to do with just having a smaller collection and paying a, paying close attention to what's going on with your trees because, you know, kind of sounds a little bit, what's the, the word for it but cliche, I guess. But you know, because trees obviously don't really talk to us, but they kind of do. And if you see things, you should, you know, it should spike your interest. Like, okay, well that's not what that tree usually does. So why is it doing that?
Trying to get to the bottom of it is something like I've always, and I think that has kind of correlates to my career as a police officer. Like I was one of my favorite assignments and one of the things I feel like I'm best at in my career is investigating. And so getting to the bottom of things. Like if something's going on with my trees, like, I'll get to the bottom of it. It may not. The answer I get may not be what I want to hear, but it'll, but I'll get to the bottom of it.
[00:54:17] Speaker B: That's, that's so awesome and I completely agree with you. I feel like the more, the longer and the more experience that I've gotten bonsai, the more nuance that I recognize. And you know, this year I've really started moving my trees around a lot more. Like I used to think o, you know, juniper goes in full sun all the time. But I think that's not the case. If we have a temp spike, then like I'm looking at the weather and I'm moving it under shade cloth for the day or for as long as it's. I think it's too hot. I'm, I'm trying to look at every little detail and make adjustments in my garden. See, always looking at what my trees need.
And I think that that's very important for the horticultural aspects of bonsai.
[00:55:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And, and that's really good you mentioned that because totally. I think what a lot of folks in bonsai, like, they want, even if they've been doing it for a considerable amount of time, they want like a, they want a steadfast, fast, like answer and they want, they want like a one stop shop. They Want like, okay, this is what, this is how you fertilize, this is how you water, this is how you repot. And it's just really not that simple. And I think especially when it comes to like you mentioned moving your trees around, you know, like a tree that's in development, right, where you're trying to blow everything out and you have it in a bigger pot and you have like all these long branches. Like that's a tree that's going to be able to handle more sun because it has a bigger reservoir, the pot's bigger, it's not going to heat up as fast. It has, it doesn't have the fine ramification. So it, you know, the water can get to each branch a little bit quicker and easier than say a tree that's super refined, that has tons of little branch tips, that has a smaller tight pot like that tree.
Just because it's a juniper doesn't mean it just automatically goes in full sun because on 105 degree day that super refined tree in that tiny pot could easily be damaged. Whereas like a Sierra juniper that's in a wooden box after collecting and it's just blowing out with foliage, like that tree is going to be able to handle that sun much more efficiently than a smaller tree that you know, doesn't have that, that same timeline or isn't in that same stage of development, I guess.
[00:56:39] Speaker B: Yep, absolutely.
[00:56:42] Speaker A: So, you know, it's, it's just, it's not a one stop shop, everybody. I hate to say it, like it's, you know, it's the same with fertilizing, right? Like a tree in refinement, you may not fertilize as much. You, because you don't want thick branches, you don't want long internodes. Then a tree and refine. But then a tree that you're trying to really develop, you might just load it up with fertilizer because you just want these, you know, because you're trying to get the branches to elongate to, to thicken so you can cut back and get taper. So I guess it just, yeah, it just really depends on where you're at and what, what stage of the development the tree is in.
[00:57:17] Speaker B: Absolutely, yeah. There's so much nuance to learn within bonsai. It's just like it's never ending. Really is never ending.
It truly makes it fun.
[00:57:28] Speaker A: It's like a martial art. Like you know, you really, you learn the principles and then you, you kind of build on that. But it just, it's like this, just when I feel like I have it figured out. I'm like, oh boy. I don't. There's something else. A curveball that got thrown my way, and now I need to figure this out. So it's. Yeah, it's a. It's a never ending. It's a never ending journey. And it's just like with my. I tell people at work, like, it's laws are always changing. Things are always evolving. Like, the day you feel like you know it all is the day that you've. You've kind of ruined your. Where you're at because you. The minute you feel like you. You know it all and you stop learning is like the minute you start to. To or you become less successful, I guess.
[00:58:11] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yep.
Yeah.
Well, hey, Mike, you know, one thing I wanted to pick your brain about is actually kind of like circling back to your bonsai collection a bit.
[00:58:27] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:58:29] Speaker B: So I guess first off, I'm curious, like, how are you selecting trees to keep in your collection these days?
So.
[00:58:41] Speaker A: Yeah, so these days I want more of a. I guess the range I'm looking at is like, I like shohin to like that kind of chewing size, like so 6 inches to. I. I know 24 inches is bigger than shoehin, but like, if I'm gonna go bigger, like, that's kind of.
That's kind of the range I want to stay in. Although I still have a couple that are.
That are a little taller than that. But for me, when it comes to, like, adding trees to my collection now, because I don't have a lot of time and. And I just want to have good quality stuff, I. I really am trying to focus on adding trees that have some kind of a provenance to them.
Something that's like, either been a bonsai in the Bay Area for a long time or that has been worked on by somebody that I. That I admire, you know, like, for example, I just recently purchased a little hinoki cypress shohin from Gene Fujimoto, who I've been friends with for many years. Yeah, it was really good friends. Friends with her husband Robert, before he passed away. It was a treat.
Yeah, they are. They're the sweetest. And I admired the tree for many years, and Jean knew that I was interested in it. You know, I just kind of told her, hey, if you ever decide to sell it, could you please just keep me first on your list? So the time came a few months ago and.
Yeah. And we were able to work it out. And I have it now, and I'm super stoked to have it in my collection. And it actually was started by a lady by the. Her first name is Toshi and I can't pronounce her last name, but it's like a Polish last name. I think she was a Japanese lady, but she was married to a Polish guy. And she was someone that was a member of Yamato for many, many years and someone I super admired, I think, because she was also mainly self taught, but probably had some of the best bonsai trees I've ever seen. And I. I wish that I could have afforded to buy more of her trees back then, but I was younger and obviously didn't have the same amount of money that I do now, so I couldn't do that. But she was just a really sweet lady. And so this tree came from her. I knew. I don't know if she grew it from seed or if it was from like a cutting or from a gallon, but I know she started it very young. And it's very traditional. Like, you know, it has like the right, right, left back branch, right, left back branch kind of a setup, but. But it's structurally put together like pretty much perfectly.
And you know, it's has that branch, like that first branch, like starting one third the height of the tree. So it's. It's very traditional in that sense, but like, it's still super, super well done. And it's. It's really cool to have it because it's a piece of Bay Area history. So it'll be able to stay here with me for, in the Bay Area for a long time, hopefully.
[01:01:33] Speaker B: That's so rad. I love that. I want to see a picture of it. And I really like the idea of collecting trees with provenance.
[01:01:42] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, it just. I think it adds a little bit of just a special touch to the tree. And, and it's also kind of cool when it's at a show to be able to tell that story to people. And. And so a lot of the trees I decided to keep sort of have that.
That for me, either they were given to me as a gift or they have like a kind of a. A background to them to. For people that I respected. Like, I have a black pine that belonged to Kenji Miyata, who I respected. And I have, you know, a blue spruce or, I'm sorry, a blue Atlas cedar that belonged to my grandfather that he started from a gallon tree back in the 70s. So that's really cool. You know, my Sierra that I grafted with Itoi Gawa from, you know, belonged to Jimmy and Johnny.
A couple of oaks that belong to a guy who grew him from seed that, you know, which is pretty cool because he would travel to different parts of the country of the world and bring these seeds back and then grow them. So like it's, it's kind of cool like to have those trees knowing that maybe they were grown here, but the seeds like originated from a tree in another country, you know, which is cool.
[01:02:51] Speaker B: Absolutely.
So yeah, one thing that I'm curious about is actually, and this sounds kind of funny almost, but I feel like there's, there's kind of like, at least in the United States there's like strategy when it comes to creating a good bonsai collection because you can't just go. There's not even really that many bonsai nurseries that you can just go in and buy really nice trees. You can't. I mean there's, there's some places that you can. Peter T. Sells a lot of good trees. But I feel like, let's say if you want to make a really nice collection, there's almost like strategy in how you create that collection and the things that you have to do. I feel like one of the things that I've noticed about you is that you're. I, I think you're good with people, you're confident you'll go and talk with people. And I, I think you build relationships with, with people. And I think that's, that's a, a lot of, or some of the strategy that's involved in creating a nice collection.
Any thoughts on that?
[01:03:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think, and that's something that I think about a lot with my own collection is, you know, what's gonna, what's going to happen in my trees one day when I'm gone. You know, my hope is obviously that my son is into it and that I could just do a one stop shop and leave everything to him. But the reality is he might not be so.
You know, I've often, my wife is younger than me and I've often talked to her about, you know, like, hey, don't let me be one of those people that hangs onto my trees for too long and I'm super old and they start to die and let's get rid of them and get them off to the right hands. And so I think that that's, I think that's good load establish relationships and for one reason or another, like, you know, there's a lot of older people in bonsai and, and, and I think it's good to establish relationships with them. Because it gives you the opportunity. Because a lot of older folks in Bonsai, they don't want their. You know, sometimes it's about the money, but other times it's not about that. It's about just. They want their trees to go to.
To the right people. And I think that when you establish those relationships, it kind of enables you to. To. To get, you know, the opportunity to buy a good tree from folks that are, you know, as they. As they age. You know, like, for example, with. With the hinoki that I got, you know, like, I. I don't know that I would have had that opportunity if I didn't have the friendship that I. That I built over the years with Gene and Robert. And so. So I think that's really cool. And I. And I try to do the same thing, you know, Like, I. I hope that as I age, there's younger people in Bonsai that I can become friends with, that if, you know, my son doesn't want my trees, that they're people that I could confidently give them to or sell them to, that I. I know will move them forward in a good direction and keep them going. Because that's obviously what we need here in the United States that we. That we don't have, that Japan does, is we don't have the deck, you know, the decades or the years that, you know, centuries of. Of bonsai being passed down and through generations. So I think that'd be really cool to.
To get that happening as we can.
[01:06:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
Yeah. No, some great points there. I think we do see too many people who unfortunately, like, maybe towards the end of their life, don't have a plan in place for their trees. And it's not a fun topic to talk about, so. No, not something I love to talk about, but I do think it's important.
And I just. I'll basically, like, state it publicly right now. I want to make sure my trees have a plan in place after I'm gone, and I think it's really important that they live on longer than me, and I want to do everything possible to make sure that that happens and they get passed to good people. So I think that's just such a great point that you made there.
[01:06:45] Speaker A: Yeah. And I know you and I. And I'll leave it there, too. I think that's. I'm 100% in agreement with you, and that's exactly where I'm at with my trees. And I know you talked about it on your podcast with Aaron Packard, and.
And I think that's what is really great about some of these collections, too, because if, you know, if I don't have, you know, if my son isn't interested in it, and there's particular trees that I, I, you know, want to kind of live on in my memory or whatever. It's nice to have these, these really great collections. You know, like the collection in Seattle like this, I think it's one of the best ones in the country. So I, I, I think it'd be really cool to one day have a tree there if.
[01:07:24] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I feel like in the US It's, I think bonsai gets me excited because you don't necessarily need to go out and spend, like, some crazy, crazy amount of money to have some really, really nice trees.
And I think maybe in Japan it's not so much like that. Like, it's more like if you want to have the night, let's say your goal is, like, I want to have the nicest trees in Japan, like, you're going to be paying millions of dollars.
[01:08:02] Speaker A: Sure.
[01:08:03] Speaker B: Whereas in the United States, of course, money helps everything. It makes things much easier. However, I do think that there are, there's something to be said about the United States and having a younger bonsai culture and having all the awesome yamadori that we have, where I think that at a much lower price point, you can enter the game or you can go out and collect things yourself. And I, I just, it's exciting to me that I don't think that you need quite as much money as you do in Japan. And I think we have, like, that makes me really excited, and I'm stoked about that.
Would you say you feel a similar way?
[01:08:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I think so. I will say that I've noticed bonsai getting more expensive over the years. A lot of that just has to do with, you know, as time passes, right. Things get more expensive, and I totally get that. But I think material is getting a little bit more scarce. I know one of the things I've noticed over the years is, like, some of the auctions I can remember, you know, like, when Bib was still around, like, they would have their auction and that obviously had, like, a lot of great trees. And then some of the collections have had auctions over the years. And I don't, I, I guess I don't mean to, to bag on them because it's not their fault. But, you know, you only, you only get what you get, right? But I've noticed that the, like, the, the auctions at a lot of the collections, they've started to have fewer and fewer quality trees. And several years ago when they first started, the, the trees were like, much better, it seemed. And, and I think maybe that has to do with people just wanting to hang on to their trees now because maybe there isn't as much material. But I just, I think I just, I just remember like, much better quality stuff several years ago and now it's kind of like, it's almost discouraging because it's like, ah, do I want to go? Probably not going to be anything there that I want. But you never know. Maybe there's, maybe there'll be a couple good trees.
Yeah, but, but yeah, you can certainly still get good deals. And I think it kind of goes back to what you and I talked about, like, you know, making friends with people and, you know, because I've certainly gotten some trees for very discounted prices because of friendships, you know, that I otherwise would not have, you know, gotten. Like, for example, the Sierra Juniper that I grafted that belonged to Jimmy and then Johnny. I could have never afforded that tree if it was being sold by someone else. But Johnny, and I won't say what I paid for it, but Johnny basically told me, I want you to have this. I know how much you want it. Tell me what you can afford and we'll make it work. And so I pretty much told him what I could afford. And some people might be like, oh my God, I can't believe you got it for that price. But he was gracious enough to accept the price I gave him and, you know, and here I am. So I think that's really. If I was someone getting into bonsai, I would say make friends with the people that have been around for a while because eventually they're going to get older and they're going to want to get rid of their trees. And if you, if you really want to get a good price or a good deal, like those folks that you've made friends with that trust you, that know that you do good work, that are going to, that, you know, really care about their trees, they're going to want their trees to go to someone who is going to progress them and keep them alive in the future.
[01:11:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, most definitely. It's really awesome, your story about getting that Sierra Juniper. But yeah, I think with acquiring a really high quality collection of bonsai, it's about really getting into the bonsai scene and like understanding who has what and who's collecting what and who has what for sale. And then there's Also just like a big time element. Like it just takes time to get really good bonsai trees.
And then I also think it's, it's really about both like building relationships with people, but then also just being a quality individual and having good communication skills with, with people and doing what you say you're going to do and having a good reputation in the community. I think those are all very important things because I kind of think it's really hard to just. Even if I have a good amount of money, like there's not just a bonsai store with, you know, Pacific Bonsai Expo winning trees out there that I can go and spend money at.
I feel like, yeah, you gotta like figure out who to go to and, and who to talk to and, and it's complicated and fun.
[01:12:40] Speaker A: Yeah, it's, it's like, it's, it's kind of like it's not necessarily what you know, it's who you know. Right. And, and I think that's has to do with. I think that's just life in general, right? I mean, if you want a job with a particular company, right. I mean you can have all the education in the world, but you know, if, if you and I are going in for the job and the owner of the company, you know, has known you and has seen you grow up as a kid, like you're probably going to get the, the nod over me, right? I mean that's just, that's just the way the world works. And so. So yeah, I think that's really important and I think it's, it's also important to, you know, like to do good work and to have people see that your, your level of, of seriousness about it because that also kind of plays into, you know, being able to get good trees and.
Because obviously, right. If you have the money, you could pretty much do what you want. But at the end of the day, if people see you as someone who just buys trees and kills them the next day, you're probably not going to be very well respected. And they're probably not going to want their really good trees to go to you because especially once they've worked on for many years because they just have so much passion and hard work put into them that just let them kind of just perish, you know, just because of the money.
[01:13:52] Speaker B: Oh yeah, for sure.
So yeah, I think it's really interesting that there's kind of like there's individuals and they, they, well, they specialize in particular things.
If I say, hey Mike, like, I'd. I really want to find like a yamadori oak.
Like, I feel like you, you know who to go to or if I, I really want a really nice Rocky Mountain juniper. Like, here's the two or three collectors there.
Hey, I really want like a nice Korean hornbeam. Okay. Here's like the, the people that you want to go talk to with that. And like, each type is gonna vary quite a bit.
I think that's quite interesting about the US Bonsai community.
[01:14:34] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, for sure. And I know, speaking for myself, like, I, I feel much more confident buying from someone that I know and I have a relationship with. Like, for example, like Peter, right? I. I feel more, much more confident buying like a really expensive tree from him, opposed to like someone I don't know, because I know that that tree has been treated properly and the right things have been done to it over the years. You know, I'm not inheriting like a problem, you know what I mean?
[01:15:04] Speaker B: For sure.
[01:15:05] Speaker A: And, and so that's. So that's another part of it that's really. And that's like, kind of boils down to your point about, you know, knowing who to go to for certain things, right? Like, if you want, you know, really well cared for trees or good trees, you know, you can, you know, you can go look at a nursery like Peter's, or you can go to Jonas's nursery or go to see Eric, or, you know, guys that like, you know, do good work and, you know, are treating the trees properly. So you're not basically buying a tree that you have to fix a hundred things with once you get it home for sure.
[01:15:38] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, I think those are three. Like, there's not a bonsai store necessarily. But if someone asked me, like, hey, where should I go look for bonsai? And I, you know, I have a decent budget. I would say Peter, Jonas, Eric, those are three awesome guys. And you'd probably find something good there.
[01:15:55] Speaker A: Yeah, and there's of course, nurseries all over the country. I mean, there's, there's places, you know, that you could go to and, and obviously, you know, someone like, like Ryan Neal, if you want, you know, the really top notch, like huge Yamadori. Like, that's, he's. He's gonna be your guy, right? And, um, and Randy, of course, if you. I mean, he's. And the backcountry boys, you know, with all. With collecting yamadori, like, those are guys that are bringing in awesome stuff. And so, you know, and by the way, I don't want to limit Ryan. Just big trees. He does great work on everything. But when I think of Ryan, I think of like the really impressive, like larger trees for sure.
[01:16:38] Speaker B: So, yeah, I think with, with the collectors out there, I feel like it's, it's. Even if you have the money, like, I wonder if they would sell to just anybody. And I'm talking, I'm sure, like the lower quality material they would.
However, like the best trees that say, Randy Knight collects. I think even if, if some random person tried to get in touch with Randy Knight and said, hey, like, I have 20k to spend on one tree, I think, I don't know if he would sell it to them or.
And, and part of that's just because he has so much demand that he can be really picky about things. But I think it all goes back to the things we were talking about. Building a relationship with him, showing him that you can actually take care of the tree properly. You're going to do the right things or you're working with a professional and then just being a standup person, someone, a good person in the bullseye community.
[01:17:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, obviously I don't want to speak for Randy, but I would, I would think that what you're saying is pretty much on par. Because I think that it's a lot of. It's a labor of love what he does. He's incredible at it and he makes it look easy. But I know it's not easy because I have collected before and so I know there's nothing about collecting that's easy.
But I mean, as superhuman as he is, I think it's still, you know, that hard work. Yeah. I wouldn't imagine he'd want a tree that potentially could be a world class bonsai to be into the wrong hands.
And so, you know, I think it just goes back to like, again, like, knowing the right people and being in the scene. Right. Like, I mean, if there's a tree in my collection that I was going to sell, like, honestly, I hate to say this, but there's two prices, right? There's. There's a price that I would sell it to you and then there's a price I would sell it to somebody I don't know, and the price to you is going to be less. Like, let's just be honest because for one, you're a friend, you're somebody I know, and I know you do quality work and I know that you're gonna do well by the tree. And the, the unknown person, I don't know whether it's gonna die tomorrow or it's gonna flourish or what? It's, you know, the reality is there's two prices. And.
And if it's. If I have a tree for sale, the price to someone that I'm friends with that I. That has like, a proven track record with me, that price is going to be probably significantly less than what it would be for someone that I don't know.
[01:19:11] Speaker B: Yeah, that's fantastic. And I appreciate getting the good price. Thank you very much.
[01:19:18] Speaker A: Well, you have plenty of good trees. You don't need any for me. But. Yeah. But if that was ever the case, you would.
[01:19:23] Speaker B: Thank you. Appreciate it.
[01:19:24] Speaker A: Sure. Yeah, yeah.
[01:19:25] Speaker B: No, I completely agree with you. I probably do the exact same thing. So you get the good price. Mike.
[01:19:31] Speaker A: Thank you.
[01:19:34] Speaker B: Awesome. Hey, I did want to ask you, and are you doing okay, like, on breaks and time and everything?
[01:19:40] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, actually, this is like the perfect time because my wife and little guy are away for the night, so I'm just. I'm just hanging out at home doing chores. So I've got all the time you need. So I know that probably editing and stuff, you need to have a little bit longer than you normally to edit out and stuff. So.
[01:19:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
Fantastic. Well, I can help you procrastinate on those chores, so.
[01:20:02] Speaker A: Yeah, perfect. That's what I was hoping for.
[01:20:05] Speaker B: Hey, would you tell me a little bit about. So one thing I saw recently is I saw your coast live oak in Peter T's garden.
[01:20:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:20:14] Speaker B: And I was very, very surprised to hear that you sold that tree.
And so I'm curious, would you tell me about the decision there and what that looked like? And before I say that, I want to say congratulations on winning a PBE award for that tree.
[01:20:31] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you.
Yeah, you know, the decision was really a tough one, but at the end of the day, what it really boiled down to was I just want smaller trees. And it's a. As you know, it's a. It's a pretty large tree, super broad canopy, difficult to move. And I just really wanted my collection to be focused on trees that I could pretty much handle on my own and not really have to worry about getting help to lift it or move it around or whatever. And it's a great tree. Like, I. I put a lot of hard work into the tree. I got it in 2017, I think progressed it along really well from where it started to the product that I exhibited at the expo in 2024.
But again, that was a tree I just didn't. I didn't really want to sell to. To anyone. And Definitely was a tree where the price was significantly less because Peter bought it than it would have been just for any random person. And I guess for me it was easier to let it go because I knew it was going to Peter. And you know, I. Peter's a friend. I study with him. Occasionally I go to his nursery. I know that it's.
It's not like I'm never going to see it again, you know, and.
And I feel like, to be honest with you, not to say that I couldn't continue to make it better, but I also, I also know where my limitations are as well. And I recognize that, you know, that someone like Peter could make the tree probably better than I can.
And so I, I think it's such a great tree and such an old trunk that, you know, I think it's going to be in, just in great hands and I know it'll progress and again, probably turn out better than I could have ever made it. But. Yeah, I mean, and the other thing I'm trying to do is like I said, just reduce my collection and I want to redo my yard. And so the money I made from that is gonna. Is kind of being saved to sort of re. Landscape my backyard and create more kind of a collection like, or more of a setup. Like you and Sam have more of a kind of, I guess, museum esque sort of setting.
[01:22:52] Speaker B: Gotcha. Yeah, I, I totally respect and understand wanting a smaller trees and just like if a tree, if you can't move a tree yourself, it's like the worst thing ever to have to get help to move trees around. You know, I, I just, I hate that.
[01:23:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I, Yeah, I do too.
[01:23:14] Speaker B: And so I totally get that night.
Completely understand. I did. I mean like, man, that oak is really nice. The, the bark quality and the nabari and the taper on it and that it looks like a natural oak style. It's just, It's a really special tree. Like it very much.
[01:23:33] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. It's a. It's definitely when it comes to. When it comes to oaks, it's, it's very. It's like a quintessential oak in nature. I mean it. It's not at all. You know, I think you. If I remember Ryan Neal saying when you, when you approach bonsai, you can, you can style it two ways. You can style it like a bonsai or you can style it like a tree in nature. And I really tried to go for the. It almost just lent itself naturally to styling it like a tree in nature. But to that end Though I think you also still, even if you take the approach of styling it like a tree in nature, you still want to have good structure. You still want to have good secondary tertiary branches. Right. It's not that. I think that's where people get a big misconception is like, you know, they're like, it's a, it's an oak. I want it to, I want it to look like an oak in nature. So it has this like broad canopy like an oak, but then underneath the hood it looks, it's like a mess, right?
Yeah. And I think that's where people kind of miss the mark is, is. I, I don't think they truly understand that. You can have it look like a tree in nature, but you shouldn't substitute poor structure for that ultimate design. You should still have, still follow the principles of bonsai and the good structural setup for the tree, but you can still have that, you know, just the same way you could have a tree styled more like a bonsai and like that triangular shape and still have good, and have good structure there as well. So I think that's what I really tried to do with that tree is that it's not just a big broad canopy with a bunch of branches going in all different directions. Like it's, it has the branches kind of moving in the right direction. I, I feel like on that tree.
Yeah, that was like, like my big focus and, and I'm sure Peter will do things to it to compact the design a little bit more and, and continue to improve the structure. But I'm very excited actually to see what he does and to see how he progresses it, you know, say five years from now for sure.
I'm sure that the tree will look similar in nature, but I, I'm. There'll probably be some, some pretty significant nuances that that will change as well. I'm very excited to see where, where that tree heads under his, his guidance. So.
[01:25:50] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you did, you did a fantastic job with that tree. You did a very, very good job and so awesome work there.
[01:25:58] Speaker A: Thank you so much. Appreciate it.
[01:26:00] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm curious, do you think that the tree is truly old for the size? Because I, I don't think I've seen another oak with that good of bark at that size proportion.
[01:26:13] Speaker A: Yeah. So I think the tree is significantly, has a lot of significant age.
I bought it from a guy by the name of Gareth shepherd, who is a long time Santa Cruz Bonsai Club member of Santa Cruz Bonsai Chi. And I think he does, I think he's A member of like, the Watsonville Bonsai Society too, if I'm saying that correctly. Understanding was that I was the second owner. He collected it, and I believe he said he collected it in the Aptos area, California.
So. So it is yamadori. And yeah, for. To have that kind of bark with the fissures that it does that it has and to have it as high up. But like a lot of times you'll see like, the oaks where the old bark is like an inch or two from the dirt, from the soil level up, and then it goes smooth right where like that, that. That old barkite goes like two thirds of the way up the trunk, which is like incred. It's incredible. And. And so I would say that tree is extremely old. Like, if I had to guess, I would say it's at least 100 years old. It has to be to have that. Have bark like that.
[01:27:16] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. I was just talking with Travis, Peter's apprentice, about. He's really into oaks. I think that's his. One of his favorite species for bonsai.
[01:27:29] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:27:29] Speaker B: And we were. We were just discussing how much of that type of thing is genetics and how much of it is age. I'm sure it's both age and genetics, but I'm just curious your thoughts. Like, it seems to me that some oaks get better bark quality, but it's also definitely age.
Have you witnessed that as well?
[01:27:50] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. I think that, you know, it's kind of like a black pine, right. Or. Or a juniper. You know, we see like, some black pines have much better bark than others. Some junipers, you know, especially like our native species, like one Sierra juniper might have a little bit tighter foliage, and the next one might have super leggy foliage. So I think genetics is definitely a part of it, but I think that that tree probably is just super old because I've seen so many oaks and, you know, like, JT has some super awesome, incredible oaks. And.
And I. And I just. It's a number of different people over the years with oaks, and I've never seen one with bark like that, that good.
And so that's what really drew my attention to that tree, to be honest.
But, you know, I. I have another oak that's a. It's an English oak that came from the gentleman I was talking about, who. He passed away now, but he would go and collect seeds on his business trips throughout the. You know, his international travel. And this one that I have is. Was allegedly grown from seed from him. And, And.
And it has like, super old bark. I mean, the trunk is huge. It's got this, this great old bark. And, and usually you see, like, English oaks, like, the bark is. If it's not yamadori, it's like, you know, kind of starts to get smoother as you go up the trunk. And this, like, pretty much old bark all the way up to the, to the apex. So I think age has a lot to do with it, but, yeah, I think genetics certainly plays a part in it. But. But I, I don't know that you get bark like that without adding age. I don't, I don't see how it would be possible.
[01:29:34] Speaker B: I wonder. And this. I would love to ask Gareth if there were any factors that kept the tree dwarf that he could tell.
Like, was it in a field that cows were grazing on, or was it something about the particular environment that kept the, the tree small?
Or. Yeah, I wonder.
[01:29:55] Speaker A: I wish I would have asked that question. I mean, he's, he's, he's alive and kicking, so that's maybe something you could ask him if you ever run into.
Yeah, because I'm sure he'll. I'm sure he'll remember the tree. I know he was at the expo and, and he saw it and so I'm sure he would be able to fill you in on that. But, but I do know it was collected and I, and I believe, like I said, it was in the Aptos area, but I do not know the lay of the land in terms of, like, what other things were around it that could have caused it to be that, that stunted. But, but yeah, definitely something. Because to stay that small and have bark like that, like something had to be some type of animal or natural act had to have occurred to keep it that way.
[01:30:35] Speaker B: Yeah, interesting. Or it could be like soil type or it was growing in a rock pocket or something or. I don't know. Totally, definitely, definitely would like to ask him, though.
[01:30:46] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I think you should. I'd be. I'd be interested to know, too.
[01:30:50] Speaker B: Cool. And I've heard he collects a lot of oaks or he. He has collected quite a few oaks and has had some for sale. Is that what you've experienced?
[01:31:00] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I got connected with him several years ago and, you know, I didn't really realize how many oaks he actually had until I went to his house and bought that tree, because he had quite a few. And so I guess he just had collected a lot over the years and he's kind of in the right country for it. I mean, that Santa Cruz area up there, I think that the, it's along the coast. So the coastal live oak, like, I guess that's, that would make sense to where they'd be growing, right?
[01:31:29] Speaker B: For sure. For sure. Cool.
You know, I, I heard, I was talking like randomly messaging on one of the bonsai forums and someone made a point that was interesting that I've just never really thought about, which was that this individual didn't think that valley oak was collectible or substantial valley oak trunks would be collectible. And I'm not sure like, of the reason, but I guess come to think of it, you know, I see a lot of coast live oaks that are collected, but I don't see very many valley oaks that are collected.
Right. Have you ever, have you ever there? Do you have any thoughts on that?
[01:32:11] Speaker A: Honestly, I, I don't have any experience in that because I've never. The only trees I've ever collected were junipers, so I, I've never even collected an oak. But I would love to if you ever do it. And you.
[01:32:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:32:25] Speaker A: Know of a spot to go to because I, I would definitely think it'd be cool. I, I, Oaks are such fun trees to grow. But yeah, I, I don't, I don't really have any experience with valley oak and I, and I don't know why they wouldn't be, per se. I mean, I, I understand like, trees like manzanita and stuff, and, and I know that they don't, they don't seem to do well as bonsai for whatever reason. I don't really know why, but I know that people have tried and not had much success with them, which is unfortunate because they're super cool trees. But I think you might have collected some and, and maybe you could you have more experience with those. I'm sure. I, Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I'm not sure why they wouldn't be good to collect because I feel like any tree can be made of bonsai. Right. If you apply the right techniques to it. Except jade. I don't, I hate jade. But that's, that's another topic.
[01:33:16] Speaker B: That's funny.
[01:33:17] Speaker A: I see a lot of people do it and sorry for those out there listening that, that I, they're cool trees. I think they're neat, have their place, and their place doesn't belong to bonsai. But that's, that's another, that's just my own, my own feeling for sure.
[01:33:31] Speaker B: I guess I'm curious, do you have any tips for working with oaks? I feel like Your oak always look really nice, and I hear a lot of people get fungal issues, and they can be challenging to work with. Any. Any suggestions? Just in general. And do you spray your oaks a lot?
[01:33:50] Speaker A: Yeah, so I think that a few things are important. One is to really keep track of, you know, to spray proactively when it comes to fungal issues, like don't wait. Which is kind of the same with any tree, right. Juniper or pine. Like, once you see it, it's almost too late. So try to. Try to stay on top of spraying and vary your chemicals. Like, don't use the exact same chemical every time, every year, because trees can develop a resistance to fungicides as well.
So one of the things I do is I try to change it up and not spray with the same thing all the time. And also, you know, combining like a fungicide and insecticide together and. And spraying has been effective for me. But I think just. Just staying on top of it, pruning at the right time of the year, having some intentionality behind your fertilizing, I think is important.
And then repotting, I feel like oaks. I've had success with repotting them earlier rather than later.
[01:34:56] Speaker B: Nice.
[01:34:57] Speaker A: I think. I think that, like, for me, I generally tend to repot my oaks in December. And then one of the thing that. One of the things that really helps, because oaks can be kind of finicky with their roofs. And one of the things that has been really helpful for me is bottom heat after I repot.
So I'll often use, like, a heating pad after I repot my oaks. I don't. I don't do it for all my trees, but for oaks, I generally put them on the heating pad, especially if it's going to be cold, although we don't really get that gold in the Bay Area. But if it's.
I just feel like the bottom heat really stimulates growth. And I've had a lot of success with that. Same with, like, cuttings using bottom heat. Like, I. I get a really good success rate. And then I think just any tree in general that you do a pretty intense repot on, like, if you, you know, or doing like a half bear root or you're doing something where, you know, maybe, like, I'm sure this has happened to you where, like, you're repotting a tree and it hasn't been taken care of properly and the root ball kind of just falls apart on you and you're left with not a whole lot. The bottom heat is. Is really crucial and. And really Helps to get that tree moving and, and had a lot of success with that. So I would say repotting the right time of year, proper aftercare soil mix. I mean I generally use like a 311 for my oaks and then three parts.
Yeah, three parts akadama, one part lava, one part pumice is general that I do for my oaks and then, and that's kind of my same mix that I use for most broadleaf trees in my collection. And then like I'll do like a 211 for my junipers and pines. And the only time I use the one one one are our trees that I'm like, are like growing in colanders or, or growing them in, in training pots that I'm really trying to develop fast growth on. I don't use that soil mix for trees and in refinement.
[01:36:57] Speaker B: That makes sense.
So now with your oaks, are you treating them, the roots more like a conifer where you only bear root a portion and leave some area that is untouched or have you ever completely washed all the soil away?
[01:37:14] Speaker A: I have actually and I've and I, it's kind of interesting. I, I do agree with the, the philosophy of.
Because there's, you know, it's, it's, it's horticultural backing behind not completely bare rooting a juniper or pine. But I think if you have a small enough collection and you're experienced enough in bonsai and you can provide the proper aftercare, like you can give that tree the attention it needs. You can put it on a heat pad. I think that as long as the tree is healthy, I think you can get away with just about anything. Now if it's a weak tree, then obviously bare rooting, it would be a horrible idea. Right, but, but it's kind of along the same lines as like, you know, you hear people say, you know, never completely defoliate a broadleaf. Well, as you know, you can do that. Peter does it. I've done it. It has to be done on super healthy trees. But they do it in Europe. They completely defoliate their olives. Again, only on super healthy trees. But there'll be some people that will say, well, never completely defoliate or whatever. And I don't, I don't really think that that's again like the one stop shop idea. Right? Like that. As a general rule. Yeah, like doing a partial bare root, doing a partial defoliation.
Those are always going to be safe. Right. You're never, you're more than likely not going to kill the tree by doing that.
But then as you get more aggressive, then obviously you're upping your odds of the tree not making it. So if you're inexperienced in bonsai, I would say don't do that. And I think that's what works so well with like the partial bare root with the partial defoliation. And there's also reasons before it too, right? Like, you don't necessarily always need to fully defoliate a tree totally, whereas sometimes just a partial defoliation is perfect and then all you're just doing it to get the light to the interior shoots and you're goals achieved and you move on. But, but sometimes there's a reason for these things. And so, but, but I'm very like, intentional about how I do things. Like I'll never fully defoliate a broadleaf that I've repotted that same year.
It's always the fall, it's always the following year, or, But I definitely, I've even collected Sierra junipers where. And you know, some people might, might, you know, give me the side eye for saying this, but I've completely washed the root ball, like completely washed the soil off. And the following year the tree was growing like an absolute weed and there were roots coming out of the bottom of the pot.
So to say that you can't do it is not true because I can factually say that I have and it's been fine, but I'm sure that if that would be my practice for everything, that I probably would have failures as well. So I don't always do that, but there have been times where I've done it for. Just because most of the soil fell off in collection. And I was like, okay, well, I'm not just going to keep a glob of mud in there that's not really attached to anything that seems pointless to me, so let's just wash it off.
And sure enough, the tree responded well. So I think it just really comes down to your individual experience and, and knowing when you can do something and when you can't. And that's not always easy to explain or easy to understand, but I guess that's what experience kind of where that experience kind of takes over and guides you.
[01:40:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's interesting. And I, I guess it comes down to what you think, your level or comes down to your background, your horror, cultural skills, your level of risk tolerance. Tolerance and a whole lot more.
I always leave a portion untouched when I am collecting a tree. And then I heard Andrew Robson recently say something about defoliating Fully defoliating certain types of trees, like Japanese maples.
Like, I have seen Peter fully defoliate Japanese maples. I think I heard Andrew say there's, like, three criteria that he recommend. And I'm so sorry if I'm messing this up. Listen to his PODC podcast. It's really good.
[01:41:25] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:41:26] Speaker B: But I think he says that if it's a young tree growing strong and a specific variety, he will allow, like, he'll recommend to fully defoliate.
[01:41:40] Speaker A: You're right.
[01:41:41] Speaker B: But not, like, I don't think he ever fully defoliates Japanese maples.
[01:41:46] Speaker A: So.
Yeah, and I. And I think I'm along the same line. Right. Like, I wouldn't do it as a matter of practice, but. But there might be a time, you know, maybe once in the tree's life if it's super vigorous, super healthy. It's not a year that I. It's not a year that I'd repotted. And maybe I just wanted to fully defoliate it so I could really wire it out perfectly and fine tune everything. Sure, why not? I mean, and that's. And that's one of the reasons why I might fully defoliate a. A broadleaf. Because if it's hasn't been repotted and it's super vigorous, super healthy, and I just want to make my life easier with wiring, then why not? You know? And so I've. I have done that, and trees have responded really well. I can't really say that I've had anything die from doing that, and I think that's because I've not done it on trees that were weak. I think if I would have done it on a weak tree, maybe it would have died.
[01:42:42] Speaker B: For sure. For sure.
[01:42:43] Speaker A: So, you know that just, you know, it's just anything in Bonsai. Right. I mean, if the tree is super healthy and super vigorous and it hasn't undergone a recent repot, I think that it really gives you a lot more leeway in terms of what you can do.
[01:42:59] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[01:43:00] Speaker A: And I. I think that, you know, folks get stuck like, oh, I can't do this, because I've just been told I can't do it. It's like, well, that's sort of true, but not really. Not always.
[01:43:12] Speaker B: So most definitely.
[01:43:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:43:17] Speaker B: You know, I did notice on the oak that you won the PBE award in one of your old posts, and I was just looking at your Instagram before this podcast.
You said that it was a coast live oak hybrid.
[01:43:31] Speaker A: Yeah. So that's sort of what. But it's funny because I got different.
Like Gareth. Gareth told me that it was a coast live oak. And then some other folks that have experienced with oaks said that it might be like a hybrid because the. You know how coast live oaks will tend to have like more of an oval shaped leaf.
[01:43:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:43:52] Speaker A: Or even sometimes roundish. This one has like kind of a pointed very kind of like spiky. And so I'm wondering if it would. It might be like a hybrid between like a coast live oak and like a holly oak maybe.
[01:44:05] Speaker B: But.
[01:44:05] Speaker A: But yeah, I don't really know. I think that. I think oaks are kind of like, they're really cool trees in the sense that they. There's so many different species of them and they can be hybridized and they can kind of cross, you know, paths with other oaks and they kind of take on a different shape leaf and it's. Which is what's really fascinating to me about oaks. And so I don't know that it's like. I believe it's mainly a coast live oak, but I. But I feel like something happened along the way with that tree when it was, you know, whenever the seed germinated, however many years ago. I think something. I don't know that it's just a straight coastline boat.
[01:44:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:44:45] Speaker A: I. I still don't fully believe that it's just a straight coastline boat. I think there's something.
Something different about it.
[01:44:53] Speaker B: Gotcha.
Yeah, super, super interesting, super fun to talk about. And I like love that there's hybridized versions of oaks and junip pines. But I think what's most important is that it's a. It's a badass tree and it doesn't really matter, but it's fun to talk about. So. Cool. I like it for sure.
Sweet, man.
Well, maybe one more question for you.
[01:45:23] Speaker A: Sure, totally.
[01:45:25] Speaker B: Okay.
I was curious. This is super random question. If there's any topics you want to hit on, I'm totally good with that as well.
Okay, I'll ask mine and then if you have any, then that's totally cool. If I was to give you a tool right now, it could be any type of like bonsai tool or something related. What would you like? Magically? I could make it appear. Cost is no issue.
Is there something that comes to mind?
[01:45:55] Speaker A: Wow. Well, you know, it's interesting when you say that the first thing that comes to mind is that like that like multifunctional shear that Marco and Bernizi work with Masakuni to create several years ago. And I never bought the tool, but I. I felt like it had Some good functionality to it, but it seemed like it, it never really. I feel like it kind of was a fad for a short period and then it just never took off and hence why you don't really see it anymore. So. No, I, I don't know that there's any like, magical tool that I would necessarily create for a bonsai.
I, I think that every, you know, certain tools have certain functions and I know that there's tools that can be interchanged that I don't necessarily like. For example, like a knob cutter, like a large knob cutter and a trunk splitter. Like, I don't personally like trunk splitters. I think that they, I think they break super easy. I think that they, they're difficult to use based on the angle of how they are, how they're made, and I've not found them to be very beneficial at all. I feel like I can get a much more controlled split with a knob cutter just because it has like that more flat surface, you know.
[01:47:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:47:13] Speaker A: And like if I'm separating a lifeline from a tree or, you know, or if I'm using or if I'm working with dead wood, like, I would much rather use that tool to split the wood and tear it than like a trunk splitter. I just, I just think that tool sucks. Like, I never, I've never enjoyed using it. I don't. There's probably people that love it and if it works for you, great. But for me, I just never, never found it to be that functional. So that's not a tool that I have my. In my collection of tools.
[01:47:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:47:45] Speaker A: So what about. I would say more.
[01:47:48] Speaker B: Oh, sorry.
I was going to say what about like, non.
So I don't even know what you describe these things as, but, but just other things that would help you with bonsai.
So, for example, like, you know, hydraulic table card or like a. One of those Japanese sprayer things to clean deadwood or, you know, it could be anything. Like, just.
[01:48:11] Speaker A: Yeah. So I, I do, I do enjoy like the, the, the pressurized.
You know, I think they're like the one in Japan is obviously. I think it's. I'm not sure what company makes it, but it's like super expensive. Like six or seven hundred bucks. And Yeah, I know here we can buy like the textile guns that are like $60 and they work really well actually. And I find them to be very helpful because it cuts down in time. It's also like, you know, you have to be really careful with those too, because although not as evasive as Like a carving tool, they can still ruin texture on deadwood if you have the pressure too high. Got it. So, yeah, well, I would say use it, but be cautious in where on the deadwood you're using it on, because if it's super textured kind of fine deadwood, like on a Sierra, you know, where the wood is not as hard as like a Rocky Mountain, it could damage. So just be careful on the pressure. But yeah, I don't, I don't know if there's any tool necessarily that I would say trying to think. I'm trying to think of the bonsai task that I hate. And I don't, I don't know that there's really an easier way. Like, I hate plucking needles on black pines, but I don't know that really there's a tool to create rather than either, either you're going to pluck the needles off or you're going to cut them off with scissors. I don't know of any other way that you would get them off the tree.
[01:49:32] Speaker B: Totally. Not until we, we create humanoid robots and we can program them with AI and plug in a Japanese professional professional's consciousness to take on that task. I think that would be the only tool to help you there.
[01:49:48] Speaker A: I think if I, I think if I was like running a nursery as like a business and I had had hundreds or thousands of trees and I think I would definitely want one of those machines that like mixes the soil for you. Like, I would not want to be there sifting soil by hand. If I had 300 trees to repot in the winter time, for sure that would suck. But so, yeah, I would say, like, for efficiency wise, like, I have a small collection. So like, I'm totally fine with doing everything by hand.
And to that end, actually, if you don't mind, I, I would. Unless you have more questions, I would like to talk a little bit about deadwood.
[01:50:24] Speaker B: Like.
[01:50:25] Speaker A: Yeah, and that and just kind of relates to what you're saying in terms of like time and doing things right. And one thing I notice a lot about, and I know Peter talked a lot about grafting up our native trees, but I haven't heard in any one talk about a lot about deadwood and how one of the things I noticed on a lot of our trees or trees that I've, you know, Yamadori, that I've purchased is that I really have to go back and correct a lot of mistakes made during the carving process. And for sure.
And I think that has to do with people just getting too Dremel happy to Fordham happy. Just you know, wanting to carve up everything and, and I feel like that's the quickest way to just totally ruin a piece of Yamadori or even any, any juniper that you're carving. I think there's a time and place for it. Like I have a Fordham and, and I use it and it has specific functions but I think that it should be used sparingly and that, that anything you do deadwood wise, if you can do it by hand, like you're sure it's going to take you three times as long, but your end result is going to be like a hundred times better and your mistakes are going to be so much easier to fix than if you just like, if you have like a super invasive carving bit and you slip up, right, you can not only hurt yourself but you could really just dig into a lifeline or you could could totally ruin the texture of a piece of old deadwood. Whereas doing it by hand, like you're pulling pieces away slowly. And so your ability to create good textured deadwood is going to be better and the likelihood of messing it up is going to be a lot, a lot less than if you were using a power tool. So just something to think about. I, I've just seen so much work that is so heavily carved and it just looks very, very man made and super to my eye. Not, not, not good at all.
So I don't know about your. I know you've worked on a lot of collected trees. I don't know what your thoughts on that are, but I'd be interested to hear where you're at with that as well.
[01:52:34] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think this is a great topic. I agree with everything you just said. I think in general, if we can find yamadori where we don't have to carve, that's always a better thing and often Mother Nature does a better job than we could ever do. And so like for example with your Sierra juniper, I mean if someone took a carving bit to that, that would be absolutely horrendous. The polar opposite of what you would want to do. We just, we want natural deadwood, but there is a time and a place to carve. One thing I really like is when we carve or create Shari over time.
And I feel like part of creating it over time and doing like let's say like on those Yamadori or Yamadori esque man made Shinpaku whips that people twist up and then they carve over time, I do like adding Shari, like slowly over time because I think it creates steps.
So essentially, like, if you take off a, like a very thin layer, then the live vein is going to expand and grow out. And then you take off another thin layer next to the original Shari that you made, then that piece is going to be slightly higher or elevated compared to the original strip that you took off.
If you keep doing that over multiple years, you just get a really cool effect where there's like steps and it. To me, it looks a lot more, a lot better than if you just took a big fat, like 2 inch shari out. So I'm kind of going off on a different subject than you brought up. I'm sorry about that, but I think that's really good and I think I agree with you. 100. I actually just carved one of my junipers. I did it all by hand and it took me forever, but I'm pretty happy with it. I do think that, like, on the one that I just did, it's just going to take time to allow it to naturally age a bit and get some striations and some lines going on. I think just deadwood just looks better when it, it, when it's carved and then it has time to, to age naturally.
[01:54:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:54:42] Speaker B: One person that I really like his carving and I've only seen a little bit of it. Have you seen Drew Bink Lee's carving?
[01:54:52] Speaker A: No.
[01:54:53] Speaker B: He. Bjorn had him on the Bonsai U platform and essentially what he does looks like to my eye is he takes what's already there. So all the lines and striations in the deadwood that are naturally occurring, he just enhances those and makes those look bigger. But it looks very natural to me still. I like that kind of thing.
[01:55:16] Speaker A: Yeah. One of the guys that I, I think is probably like, in my mind the best is he's actually on Instagram and his name is Andres Bicocca. It's like, yeah, yeah. B, I, C O C C A and his first name is Andres. A N, D R E S. His, his work, to me, I have to say, is number one. Like, I, I, yes. Out of everyone that I've seen trees, like, it's absolutely incredible. And I do, I do subscribe to the, to the burning that a torch effect on newly created deadwood. I think that as long as you're careful about it and you don't overly. I think people torch it too much. I think all you really need to do is just torch the fine fiber.
[01:56:02] Speaker B: For sure. Yeah. Andre's carving is excellent and it looks like he's pulling fibers, and he has, like, a specialized tool that he uses. I want to get one of those. I. I think he sells them, and I. I need to reach out and get one of those. But he's pulling fiber and he's breaking, and it looks very natural and very, very good.
Yeah, I'm really glad you pointed that out. And his. His Instagram stuff is really great, so definitely should follow it if you're not.
[01:56:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:56:33] Speaker B: Awesome, man.
Well, hey, Mike, I really appreciate you jumping on here. Big fan of all your work.
Love following all your Instagram stories.
Go.
Awesome, Mike. Well, hey, thanks so much, man, and I will talk to you soon.
All right. Take care of Satisfaction.
