#45 Peter Tea: Part 2-Q&A

[00:00:00] Speaker A: To baby trees. The Black Pondo podcast. [00:00:16] Speaker B: Do you want to take a pee break, Peter? [00:00:20] Speaker A: Damn. Good. [00:00:21] Speaker B: You good? [00:00:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm good. [00:00:22] Speaker B: Damn, that's hardcore. You're gonna get a little more water. [00:00:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, go for it. But I have cold water in the fridge in a pitcher where you can get out of the sink. That's up to you. [00:00:34] Speaker B: The auburn water is so, so good. I gotta drink it while I'm here. [00:00:38] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Drew says the same thing. [00:00:41] Speaker B: Magic water. [00:00:42] Speaker A: Gotta get that auburn water. [00:00:44] Speaker B: Yeah. All right, so we're back and Peter have to talk some shit. [00:00:51] Speaker A: Okay. [00:00:52] Speaker B: I think this is hilarious, but it's also the reason I think you're so awesome. So in your bathroom while I went pee, you have first off, a tokonoma. Tokonoma. Tokonoma. In your bathroom, which you're probably the only person that I know that has a tokonoma. Like there's a little inset at the [00:01:12] Speaker A: top above your toilet and you have a little bonsai way up there. Yeah. There's a little stand and a little bonsai pot that I put there. I didn't do that on purpose. I didn't put that recess in the wall that was just there. And I was like, why is that recess there? I have no idea why that's. [00:01:28] Speaker B: Display a little shohin. So when people go pee, that's a good. [00:01:32] Speaker A: I didn't even think about that. But yeah, I just happened to have this little pot and this cool hand carved stand. That stand was carved out of one block of wood. Ah, so super cool. Yeah, I put that there like forever. It's been up there for like seven years now. [00:01:48] Speaker B: I think I think about it probably. [00:01:50] Speaker A: I don't even think about it anymore. Yeah, you're actually the first person that brought it up. So I was like, oh, yeah. [00:01:55] Speaker B: So, okay, your bathroom is the best bathroom in ever. Because it has a tokonoma, which you should display a shogun. That would be hilarious. [00:02:04] Speaker A: Funny. Yeah, yeah. [00:02:05] Speaker B: You also have a picture of Bill Murray, which. [00:02:08] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, because that's. [00:02:10] Speaker B: That's badass as well. And then lastly, there's VR goggles in your bathroom. [00:02:16] Speaker A: Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:02:20] Speaker B: But you're shooting zombies. [00:02:22] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [00:02:24] Speaker B: While you're. [00:02:24] Speaker A: You just gotta. You gotta game when you can. [00:02:27] Speaker B: Right? [00:02:27] Speaker A: I love it. [00:02:30] Speaker B: I can edit that part out. [00:02:31] Speaker A: Yeah, okay. [00:02:32] Speaker B: You told me later. Yes. That is awesome. So that was great. [00:02:39] Speaker A: That was great. [00:02:40] Speaker B: Okay. Anyways, so we had quite a few questions actually. Come in. [00:02:47] Speaker A: Oh, okay. Okay. There's more questions. All right, so. [00:02:50] Speaker B: And then I had some questions, so I'm hoping maybe we can just kind of go in and out and, and ask you a bunch of questions. Sorry, there's not like a theme to this. [00:02:59] Speaker A: It's. No, it's all good. [00:03:00] Speaker B: It's all over the place. [00:03:01] Speaker A: I like answering questions, so. Okay, let's go. Let's do it. [00:03:05] Speaker B: All right, well, we'll do a few listener questions first, so. [00:03:08] Speaker A: Okay. [00:03:09] Speaker B: James A. Says, what's your opinion on pros taking apprentices in the US and how does that compare to the quality of education that an apprentice might get in Japan? [00:03:27] Speaker A: Okay, I, I think pros in, in the US Taking apprentices, I think that's perfectly fine. I think that's great. Because an apprentice or somebody that wants to be an apprentice, sometimes they just can't go to Japan, whatever reason. Right. Too difficult to get out there. Could be a financial thing, maybe they have a family, they just can't leave. But maybe they have a local professional that they can apprentice. So, you know, you, you do that, which is great. So I'm glad that professionals are here, are offering that. I have an apprentice. I do the same thing. [00:04:04] Speaker B: Shout out to Travis Hendricks. [00:04:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, [00:04:09] Speaker B: He's a great guy. [00:04:09] Speaker A: I love him. Yeah, he's great. He's great. And now if we were to compare, compare apprenticeships in bonsai from like US apprenticeships to Japanese type apprenticeships, it's going to be a little different because it's a Japanese style. You know, they have their cultural differences. I would say currently, I would say Japan is probably. Is a bit more superior just because of the amount of bone size there. It's also nice to kind of see where the heart of bonsai is and what it's all about to get a taste of that. You see much older trees there. People have been doing it significantly longer there. So it becomes more or less of a. Well, these are the steps that we do, right? You start really getting a feel for the aesthetics of bonsai. Not just step one, step two step mechanical, you know, technical kind of stuff. So the, the. I, I think the experience, the. Oh, the overall experience might be better there just because there's so many things that we can't offer here. You know, we don't have auctions that happen every month and there's 20 professionals that get together to do this auction. And that's the local auction, right? Not some countrywide auction or the big auction in Tokyo where there's even more professionals that go there. So there's just more there. So if somebody wants to be an apprentice and they can get to Japan. It doesn't guarantee you'll be good at it. Right. It just depends who you go to and how much you want to learn. It does have a lot to do with the apprentice, but you can get an amazing experience there where you can really get a better feel for what bonsai is that that us here in the US might not be able to offer. I try to offer some of that, but, you know, there's just not many of us. It's. You're going to lose out. There's. It's the trees that I have. Some of the oldest trees I've have. Have been started in the 50s, let's say. And that's considered like, wow, that's, that's old. Whereas over there you have trees that were started in 1800s. Right. Even longer. [00:06:27] Speaker B: Right. [00:06:28] Speaker A: It's seen a couple more generations. There's something to be said about that. The nuance that you see when, when trees are that old and it, it. And it kind of. Well, not getting into the whole concept of that, but it is helpful, I would say, if you can do an apprenticeship in Japan, it's, you know, hopefully if somebody in the US can go do an apprenticeship in Japan, that's great. And then I want you to come back. [00:06:54] Speaker B: Right. [00:06:54] Speaker A: And help people here. Right. Don't stay in Japan. Not to knock anybody that's staying in Japan. I mean, there's a number of Americans that are staying there and that's all good. I'm just joking, really. But we definitely need more professionals here. So. Yeah. So I guess the good news is that if you can get an apprenticeship in Japan, learn as much as you can and don't worry, you'll have plenty of work here, you know, for sure. [00:07:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:20] Speaker A: And we need that. We need that. I mean, there's so many people that are hungry for bonsai and not enough professionals to help them. Yeah, right. [00:07:30] Speaker B: Most definitely. Most definitely. Awesome. That was great. Another question for you. [00:07:35] Speaker A: Okay. [00:07:37] Speaker B: Would you take another apprentice in addition to Travis? [00:07:41] Speaker A: Yes. Travis is coming up on his second year and he'll be here probably three or four years and he may stay longer as not an apprentice, but maybe as a, as a professional, but maybe help me with the garden and stuff like that. [00:07:58] Speaker B: And he was like part time for a while. [00:08:01] Speaker A: Yeah. In the beginning he couldn't quite be full time because he has some other obligations. So for about six months he was kind of part time. I didn't really count that as an apprenticeship because it was just jumped around a little bit too Much. [00:08:14] Speaker B: Right. [00:08:15] Speaker A: So we couldn't get, like, consistent stuff happening. But yeah, yeah. I am open to a second apprentice to kind of help transition. When Travis, say, leaves and somebody else takes over his spot, or in general, having two apprentices can be helpful. They can help each other and we can get more stuff done. So, yeah, yeah, I am. I am. [00:08:38] Speaker B: And what. What are you. In case anyone is interested out there? [00:08:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:08:44] Speaker B: What are you looking for exactly? And, like, I feel like I don't want people to waste your time. [00:08:51] Speaker A: Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, that's. Well, that's good. I mean, I don't want to waste people's time either. Right. So. So they might as well know what I'm looking for. I mean, without. Without going into great detail. [00:09:00] Speaker B: Right. And all the. [00:09:02] Speaker A: The little stuff is that I'm not particularly looking for any kind of skill. I'm really looking more for an attitude. Okay. Someone decided they want to be an apprentice, they want to learn bonsai, hopefully for the right reasons. Not because it's some fad or because it sounds cool or it makes you sound special. Right. It's because they really want to learn something about it, which I can teach them. And they have to be willing to learn, willing to put in the work. I mean, my style of teaching is potentially different than some other people. It can be pretty tough. And it's only really because I care about how well somebody does. I might be too tough, actually, and maybe it comes out the wrong way because I really want them to succeed. I wouldn't be tough with somebody I could not give a shit about. Why would I? That's a waste of my time. [00:10:10] Speaker B: Right. [00:10:11] Speaker A: So I tend to be harder on my apprentices because I do want them to succeed and do well. And realistically, if their apprenticeship is hard, when they go out and they start their own business, which you're going to find is harder, they're going to be like, well, hopefully it's not as hard as their apprenticeship. It was like, starting a business is easy, right? Oh, I get to do whatever I want, whenever I want. Well, that's great. And that is kind of like a Japanese apprenticeship in a way, too. It's supposed to be hard so that everything you do in the future doesn't seem so bad in a way. Right. You just got to make it through it. And we all react a certain way to it. I mean, I understand that, but I do want somebody that is ready to work, ready to learn. I don't know. I don't want to get into talking about generations and groups of people and all that stuff. But you just got to have kind of a thick skin in a way, too. Right. Things don't always go your way. You just got to tough it out. And just remember when you get into bonsai. Yeah. You're learning how to do bonsai and you want to be a bonsai artist. But for the longest time, and I still even feel this way, is that don't forget, you're also signing up to be a farmer. In a way, you're doing a lot of work. You're trying to get things to grow. It doesn't work out. You're out in the sun sometimes you're carrying things. Right. It's not some glamorous thing. Oh, I'm an artist. I create all these things. Right. You've seen some of those big trees that we work on. Someone moves them. [00:11:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:54] Speaker A: They don't move themselves. So, so it, it's, it's a lot of, it's a lot of sweat, but it's, it's rewarding. Right. Again, if you really love bonsai, that's just, that's part of the package. [00:12:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:09] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. And I, I generally, when I tell people about an apprenticeship, I generally sound very discouraging. But it, it, it is a good thing. I just don't want people to be surprised. [00:12:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:21] Speaker A: If, if it's not what they thought it would. Because I've seen that happen, which is why I, I tend not to sugarcoat it as much as maybe I used to. Yeah. [00:12:30] Speaker B: I completely get that. [00:12:32] Speaker A: And, you know, if you go in thinking it's going to be really tough and it ended up not being as tough. Hey, that's perk. [00:12:36] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:12:37] Speaker A: That's great. Right? [00:12:37] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. I almost feel like you should try and scare people off. [00:12:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I mean. Yeah. The people who aren't scared, I would think are probably the more serious, or they're scared, but they go with it anyways. Right. They're gonna be the more serious people. [00:12:52] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, and pressure is a privilege and feedback is a gift. That's the way that, that I look at it. And I think you, you give people feedback and it's because you care, and it comes from a place of caring and that you want to see them improve and you want to see the quality of the trees improve. [00:13:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:14] Speaker B: And so I respect it heavily. Love it. Right. Fantastic. So how can people contact you if they would be interested? [00:13:23] Speaker A: Oh, well, they can just email me. That'd be the easiest way. If they go on my website. Ptboneside.com. my email address is there. [00:13:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:32] Speaker A: And yeah, email me. And I have a old questionnaire that I actually need to update that I've sent people and, and then we can talk more about details, you know, the financial stuff, the living arrangement stuff. Yeah. [00:13:50] Speaker B: But I would assume you're looking for someone for the long term too. [00:13:54] Speaker A: Oh yeah. Like five years. Yeah. Generally I ask for three. It doesn't mean you'll necessarily. Well, just like in any apprenticeship, it's really on you a lot of times. And yeah, the more time you put into it, the better. [00:14:09] Speaker B: Right. [00:14:10] Speaker A: A typical apprenticeship in Japan is five years. [00:14:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:13] Speaker A: If you do less, you don't learn as much or you're not going to experience as much. You don't. If you're, if you're there for three years, you see three cycles. [00:14:22] Speaker B: Right. [00:14:23] Speaker A: Of things. If you're there five, you see five cycles, that's. You just get more. [00:14:28] Speaker B: Right? Totally. [00:14:29] Speaker A: And then a big part. And not to say that that's, you know, if you do five, then you're better than three. It's not always the case. It does really fall back onto how you process this information. How are you really learning this or you're just kind of floating along. I've seen people do five year apprenticeship apprenticeships and they're just terrible at bonsai. [00:14:51] Speaker B: Right. [00:14:51] Speaker A: I mean, they know some stuff. How could you not do being around something for five years? But they're not considered good. Yeah. To say. Yeah, so. So yeah, yeah. So they, they can contact me on my, my email and then we kind [00:15:09] Speaker B: of go from there. [00:15:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Nice. [00:15:11] Speaker B: Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. I think that answers that one. [00:15:14] Speaker A: Okay, very nice. [00:15:16] Speaker B: Sweet. Okay, next question. This is from a Central coast friend, Mike Andrews. He says, what would you recommend a hobbyist do to up their bonsai game most efficiently? [00:15:31] Speaker A: Most efficiently. [00:15:33] Speaker B: A hobbyist. [00:15:34] Speaker A: A hobbyist. How they can they up their game? Okay. I guess there's so many ways to up their game. I mean other than trying to. Well, if you have access to a professional that you, that you feel is good, that definitely will up your game. [00:15:58] Speaker B: Right. [00:15:59] Speaker A: You know, make and say you are doing that or you're going to work with somebody. Try to make the most out of those workshops or privates that you end up doing. See what other people are doing so that you can kind of keep that in your head so that if you're doing that same thing later you can reference that. Sometimes I see so many people in workshops, they're so focused on their own tree, not realizing that the workshop is not only just about that it's. This is your chance to say you don't have an azalea, but somebody's working on azalea now you get to see, oh, what's that all about? What's the differences? Right. I mean, you're still focusing on what you're trying to do too. Right. But it's. It's very much about experiencing kind of all these different trees and taking as much as you can and yeah. Making the most out of the workshop or the private. If you're not doing that or say there's no professional around, that's tough. I don't know if I have a good answer for how you can get better at bonsai if there isn't somebody there that you can learn from. I mean, there are programs, like online programs that teach you stuff. I've not used them, so I don't know exactly how they're laid out. But I know people like Bjorn has something like that, Ryan Neal has something like that. So those are avenues to definitely up their game again, it really comes back on you. Right. You can sign up for these subscriptions, but if you're not really watching the videos or really following through or you're getting distracted too much, then it doesn't help. Which then does lead to the. If you decide to learn from somebody, learn from them for a while and just kind of block out all these other exterior noises that come at you. Somebody tells you, oh, you should do this. Then somebody else tells you, you know, gives you a little blip here. And someone else tells you, someone at the club gives you a blip there, and you start trying all these things and you're just kind of spinning in circles. That's definitely not help helpful. So try to hone in on one place where you can get some information and stick with that, at least for a while, and see it through a little bit, experience it, and then decide, was it. Is it right for you? Is it time to now move on from that, expand on that? Or maybe there's so much that you're still kind of working with that one person or this one program for. For a while. When we're looking at the collection part of it. If you have too many trees and that's bogging you down and you're just like, I don't. No idea what I'm doing. Because you decided to get one of everything right, it's hard to learn when you have one of everything. It's easier to learn how to develop a black pine if you have a number of black pines and you don't have random trees that you get very little practice on when it is time to work on. Not that that's not fun, but I would say in the beginning, if you're really focused on, I want to get better at, say, wiring or styling a juniper, have a bunch of junipers, then at least, you know, well, if I can grow one juniper, I can grow 10 junipers. Right. As opposed to all these random trees that require different care. Well, this juniper needs 30% shade, but I have a Japanese maple that needs 50% shade and clean water. And the fertilizing schedule is different for both trees. And then I decided to get a black pine, which means the fertilizing schedule is different for that. The sun requirement, slightly different. And then you're. Now you're decandling, like, what is this? Right? In June of all times, or July. And you can see how that gets very confusing. Right. I know people aren't going to take my advice because I didn't take this advice, right? To have less trees or more of the same trees to practice on, because it's just too exciting to buy a lot of different trees. We've all been there. I almost think it's a requirement. Like, it's going to happen. Like, don't even fight it. Right. I try to tell people, don't do that, but it just doesn't do it because I didn't do it anyway. So, you know, and I'm doing this fish thing now, and I totally get it. Right. I want to buy, like, every coral I can find. Yeah, Right. And I'm telling everybody to be patient. Right. [00:20:19] Speaker B: By the way, one of the questions is, do you have hobbies outside of bones? You're kind of answering that. [00:20:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, did I answer the last question? I guess I did, kind of. [00:20:30] Speaker B: I think so. [00:20:31] Speaker A: Okay. [00:20:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. All right. That was great. Yeah. [00:20:34] Speaker A: Hobbies I have gen. You know, for the longest time, I actually had no hobbies. I. Well, before I got into bonsai, I had a lot of hobbies. Um, I won't name them all, but there was a lot, and it was cool. And then once I got into bonsai, I started whittling it down to bonsai and golfing, actually. And then after a while, bonsai was taking a lot of time, and I was doing a lot of golfing. And then I decided, you know what? I can't be good at both. I have to pick one. So I ended up picking bonsai. And so for the longest time, that was my hobby, and that was the main Focus. And then it became my profession. And through. Because I was building a business and all that stuff, it. It became kind of the main thing. So I didn't really have hobbies for the longest time, but I am getting into a few more hobbies now just to take a break from bonsai a little bit. So I'm not doing it all the time as I get older. Yeah. One of the things I did is I just got a reef tank. I did. I like coral reef type, that kind of stuff. I did that a little bit before I went to Japan. I can't quite remember the year, but it was in the early 2000s. That was a while ago, 20 years ago. And I remember it being fun. So now that I have my place and stuff like that, I was like, maybe I'll try it again. I forgot everything about it. So that's been fun. [00:22:02] Speaker B: Your tank looks awesome, by the way. [00:22:04] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, thanks. Thanks. [00:22:05] Speaker B: Got to check out Peter Sink. It looks super profess. [00:22:09] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, right. So, yeah, I'm planning on learning how to play the piano. We'll see how that goes. I don't know how. Who knows? I say that we'll see if it actually happens. We got the fish part down, so that's fun. Yeah, I'm planning on taking some piano lessons. So those are kind of the two hobbies I think right now that I'm trying to get into and. And go from there to kind of. I'll take a break. [00:22:42] Speaker B: Love it. Love it. All right, we're gonna switch to one of my questions. [00:22:47] Speaker A: Okay. [00:22:48] Speaker B: So one thing that I have been thinking about lately, I don't even know if this is a good question or if the answer is obvious or it is a. A good question or not. But I was thinking that if. If you have a judging rubric, let's say you're. You're designing a judging rubric to judge bonsai. Should age be on the rubric or does everything on the rubric ultimately roll up into age? So, meaning for. Put another way, if you take taper and the nibari of the tree or the surface roots, if you put the trunk, do all those things, ultimately, if you score a 10 out of 10, meaning like you're perfect, that just means like the age is great. Or is age on the rubric as another category? Such. Such as taper? [00:23:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:56] Speaker B: Something I was kind of thinking about the other day. [00:23:59] Speaker A: Yeah. I would say age is going to be part of. I would put it as part of all those categories. Yeah. As opposed to a separate category. Oh, this tree Is old. I give it a 10, you know. Yeah, well, that's kind of tricky, right? You know, because how old is considered, like, old, like good old. Like, for some of us, you might say, well, 10 years is old, and others is like, no, 50 is old. Or others is like, well, 50 is young, 70 is old, or whatever the case is, right? So it's a little different for, for everybody. I would say that if I was doing, you know, creating like a judging sheet or something, I think part of the criteria of, say, branch structure or taper or ramification or feel of tree, I think old age has to play a role in all of that. At least for, for me, that's. That's what makes it more interesting. And that's when you. When you see something that's old and especially something that's alive, that's old or, you know, or maybe, maybe not even that when you look at, say, old furniture, right. You know, it's interesting when we, you know, we're preparing for the Expo, for example, and we're talking about stands. And, you know, when I see people bring out their stands, you know, they're like, they store it really well, all that good stuff that's great. And they're, you know, they're polishing it, you know, oiling it. They put stuff on there and they're like, okay, be careful. We don't want to scratch it and all that stuff. And part of me is kind of like, yeah, I mean, you don't want to destroy the stand. You don't want to just like, start spinning the tree on it and just really scratching it up, right? But there's a difference between a brand new stand and a stand that's 50 years old that's in pretty good condition, right? It's not all scratched up, but you see those little small imperfections that happens through time, and it gives the stand a lot of character, right? And so I applied that to bonsai, right? When the structure has not just, okay, you got a lot of branches, but on top of that, the branches are old, it has a bit more character. You have these little imperfections in them that make them much more unique than something that's relatively young, like freshly made. Not to say that the quality isn't good, right? But there's something that has to come with age. And that seems to be the case with a lot of things. I would say, like we were talking on with watches, right? For example, a brand new watch can be super beautiful. You know, it's engineered great, the design is great, but there's something about a mature, well worn watch that has this character that. This characteristic that is not for everybody, of course, you know, but it has this, this character that's more pleasing that can only happen with time, you know, and use. So I'm. I'm not that I want to destroy all the sands that I have, but let's use them, right? We take care of them, but we use them. And over time they become a much better stand than a pristine stand that's always preserved. [00:27:27] Speaker B: Perfect. Perfect. [00:27:30] Speaker A: So I think that's a big part of bonsai. What makes say one bonsai really great and one that's kind of okay, that age is important to me and I think generally is important overall in the art form. And that's not something you can create very easily. It just has to. It's just a thing which unfortunately, if we get into say, trying to judge something based on how good the artist is, if it's a. If a tree won, and that means that the artist is really good at their craft. It's tough with bonsai because age being part of it, they don't really have a control over that. Right. It's just I happen to have gotten a tree that's older and I did my thing and that's why it won't versus somebody that's just as skilled, but they happen to have a tree that's not as mature and that's considered not good. So I mean, so then we have to then ask yourself, well, in a bonsai show, is it really the prize goes to the best artists? I don't think it's really that because the, the prize is never like best artist or best work from an artist. [00:28:49] Speaker B: Right. [00:28:49] Speaker A: It's always best large conifer. It's really about the tree. So I suppose in that case it's never really about the artist itself. It's really just how the tree is. But you know, from. I suppose from a competition part, you can't help but think, well, sometimes, you know, it seems unfair in a way if somebody can just get older material, say you are equal, but someone just has an edge because they were able to get an older piece of material. And now that tree is considered great. And maybe the tree you worked on is second best. I'm not sure how you would figure that out. That's tricky. But I mean, inevitably at the end of the day, age, this, this seemed to be an important part of it. You just can't escape it. Really great bonsai always has this older characteristic that can't be made Very quickly. Yeah. And so, I mean, I guess all we can do is try to find material, do the best we can, work with it, have it age, and hopefully it kind of all works out. Right. [00:30:04] Speaker B: You know, So I guess I'm thinking that all the technical aspects that we appreciate of bonsai, for example, taper. [00:30:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:15] Speaker B: Nabari ramification. Good examples of those categories. Of those categories that I just mentioned. [00:30:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:25] Speaker B: So you have good taper in a tree. That means that the tree looks older. [00:30:33] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, there's definitely techniques you can use to technical stuff to get a tree to look older for sure. But it only goes so far. Right. You can only bend a branch down so much. And if every tree had branches going down, then, well, that ends that. That's not the marker of age anymore. Right. What are some other nuanced things? Okay, you bend it down, but there's a slight curve here and there and then you keep adding onto that and the tree may have that or it has to be man made. Again, as a technical thing, it's very interesting because I spent a lot of time talking about technical things and how to develop trees structurally and all that stuff. And the funny thing is that at the end, and maybe I'm looking at it backwards also, is that at the end all that part kind of doesn't matter. It becomes less important once you get towards the end, like the truly, like, refined side of bonsai. And it becomes more of a feeling of something. And all those little technical things kind of kind of fade away. It's not as important anymore. And it does seem to be taken over by, you know, these. This feeling of. I have a hard time explaining. I don't know the right words, but this kind of agelessness, right. That we've been talking about and that kind of takes over and there's something about that that attracts us. It's more of an emotional thing, a feeling than, oh, you know, that taper is perfect. Yeah, absolutely, you know, or. Yeah, that nabari is great. You know, that root spread is perfect. I mean, you'll notice that. But sometimes you see trees that don't have like, what you can say perfect Nibari, but it's just like all pieces of things just come together. Yeah. And yeah, maybe it's not perfect in every aspect. And then we start seeing the beauty in imperfection. Right. That the problem with it being perfect is that it could be too perfect and it starts looking too sterile. Right. There isn't this naturalness to it that makes it interesting. So getting too technical definitely can make Things. They make things, too. Doesn't work out that well. The. The good thing here is that if you are a technical person, don't worry, you can apply all the techniques on the tree. It's not going to work out anyway. There's something that always goes wrong that makes it imperfect anyway. So you're okay? [00:33:27] Speaker B: A hundred percent. Yes. It's. That is absolutely true. [00:33:33] Speaker A: So sometimes I do find relief in. Okay, I can be super technical with a tree, but, you know, the tree's gonna do what it wants to, and that's the tree's role, and I'm gonna accept that. I don't fight it either. [00:33:44] Speaker B: And with age, it'll all work out with enough age. [00:33:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And I've said this a bunch of times that age forgives a lot. Yeah. Gives all in a way. [00:33:55] Speaker B: Yep. Okay. All right. Let's see. We answered that one. Okay. Okay. Healy Adams asks, what have been the most fulfilling personal achievements in your bonsai career? And by the way, just for anyone listening, I am just throwing these questions out to Peter. I did not give them to him ahead of time. Personally, I'm. I would like to have the question and think about it a lot. I asked Peter once if he wanted the questions, and he was like, nah, let's just go for it. So I. I respect that about you. [00:34:44] Speaker A: Well, yeah, you know, I. I find that if you ask. If people get asked questions and they're not prepared for it, it doesn't give them a chance to think up a bullshit to tell you. [00:34:54] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. [00:34:55] Speaker A: You know, unless they're really good at it and they can come up with it on the spot. [00:34:59] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. [00:35:01] Speaker A: So what's one of the most fulfilling things? Well, personal achievements. Personal achievements. You know, I. I don't think about that very much. Which is. Which I think is not good. Right. Because I have had a number of people who ask me, you know, are you. Are you happy that things are, say, working out and all that stuff? I was like, you know, I never really thought of it that way. I think it's this whole mentality of, like, again, what's the next problem? Right. I don't quite spend enough time enjoying, say, the successes that I've had, if not maybe dwell on the failures. I've had more, you know, as we all do. [00:35:45] Speaker B: So. [00:35:45] Speaker A: But. But I'm getting better at it. And. And I would say, so I'm in a better position maybe, to answer this question better now than maybe five years ago. I mean, I'm. I'm happy that I was able to find Bonsai and made it a profession. And work with, you know, really great people and have been successful in my business. Right. That I can keep going and doing this. It wasn't something I tried, and then it just didn't work out. Right. Which is. I think that's still a good thing. You gotta go for it. [00:36:25] Speaker B: Right. [00:36:26] Speaker A: But I'm happy that it's working out. And, you know, I'm still building the business. There's things to add or tweak, but overall, you know, I can't complain. It's working out. Very fortunate. So I would say that's probably the most satisfying thing, is that I got to do what I wanted to do. Right. I mean, there's challenges along the way for sure. Right. But these are challenges that can be overcome with enough time, enough work. And so I'm super fortunate that I can say that as opposed to, oh, God, I got to go to work, blah, blah, that sucks. I've been there too. Right? We've all been there. And so I'm happy about that. And I'm also happy that I work with great people and I'm helping them out with their bonsai and that they're getting satisfaction with their hobby. Right. All the way from just personal satisfaction to them being very happy about showing their trees at a show and other people liking their trees, and they. They feel good about that, you know, so that's very rewarding for me. And hopefully, and, you know, I'm, you know, my mid-40s, you know, going back to the apprenticeship thing, you know, hopefully in the future, Travis being, you know, one of my first apprentices, you know, say he finishes and he continues, and I hope he's successful. And I hope that would be another achievement that I have, that I was at least able to add another person to the roster that can help other people with bonsai. And so that's a new thing currently happening. And so hopefully I can continue with more of that in the future and help out the community that way. I think that's about it. Hopefully, then hopefully I don't, you know, a bunch of my chorus don't die, and I'd be happy about that. And I learned a little bit more about how to play this piano and get satisfied there. [00:38:44] Speaker B: Solid. [00:38:45] Speaker A: Not the most satisfying thing, but, yeah, the bonsai part is the most satisfying thing, of course. [00:38:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:50] Speaker A: That I feel I've done. Yeah. [00:38:52] Speaker B: Very nice. Very nice. All right. Going to one of mine. [00:38:56] Speaker A: Okay. [00:39:01] Speaker B: Do you think that there's a thing in the United States where maybe hobbyists don't have enough respect for professional Japanese bonsai in general. Do you think that's a thing? [00:39:21] Speaker A: I don't know. I don't know if there are people out there that just say the Japanese suck at this. I don't, I don't get a sense of that. I, I do get a sense that because there's so many more people doing bonsai here in the US and there's so many online places and stuff like that that going to. So though there are like Japanese YouTube videos, you know, some, some of the pros there do do videos, but I, I don't know how extensive the videos are. [00:39:52] Speaker B: Right. [00:39:53] Speaker A: But it does seem very far away when it's like really close here. If you know, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, he's in California and all that stuff. [00:40:00] Speaker B: Great point, great point. [00:40:02] Speaker A: So it might be more of a, not a disrespect but more of. And I'm talking about with like new people coming into bonsai is that. I think they just don't. It's so far away. That's not on their radar as much. They know that it's, you know, done there, started there, that kind of stuff. And. But there's so many sources here. So we just, they just kind of start learning from whoever here. [00:40:30] Speaker B: Right. [00:40:31] Speaker A: And if whoever they're learning from doesn't have ties to Japan or say does reject, say Japanese versions of bonsai, then of course it's not going to be on their radar. Or they may then end up rejecting because their mentor is rejecting it, which is a mistake because not, not that I'm just rooting for Japanese bonsai, but it's, it's a mistake to reject something you don't know anything about. Right. You don't get to hate somebody and not know who they are. Right. That doesn't make sense. That's kind of ignorant. Right. So you might gather some information and say, well maybe that's not for me. But again you got to question what information are you getting? [00:41:15] Speaker B: Right. [00:41:15] Speaker A: Who's telling you this? Is it even the truth? So you know, just keep open, just be more open minded about that if you're, if you're sensing that or you're getting that from somebody. But overall I don't get a sense that there's a rejection of it. But again, if they're, if their mentor is rejected, then you might see more of that in that group. [00:41:41] Speaker B: Right. [00:41:42] Speaker A: But for the most part, I mean there was a. We, we just had in Japan, they just had their 100 kokofu and there was a ton of Americans that went there and a ton of Australians. For some reason, I saw a lot of Australian people there, but people from all over the world going there. So obviously there's not a rejection of it. Of course there. We know there's some old timers that reject it for whatever reason. Um, but the newer people, maybe they might not say I like to do it this way, but an outright oh, I hate it, or it's, it's bs. I, I don't, I don't get a sense of that. I, I think they, they still know. Well, you know, there's good in that. Or it is. That's a thing too. I might not subscribe to it, but it doesn't mean I hate it either. That's just not what I'm into. That's style. [00:42:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:35] Speaker B: You know, yeah, that makes complete sense. I feel like a lot of newer hobbyists or American bonsai hobbyists, they maybe just can't quite feel a super strong connection because we have pride for American bonsai as we should. [00:42:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:56] Speaker B: I feel like, you know, we should have a great sense of pride and, and loving our American species and American bonsai in general. And we have a. Just a stronger connection to things in the United States as opposed to in Japan. But at the same times, I'll. I kind of just feel like the Japanese really refined and made bonsai what it is. And it, it is such a high level over there. And I think some Americans just don't really know that. Yeah. [00:43:30] Speaker A: Yeah. I think a big part of it, if there is any kind of rejection, a big part of it is just not knowing about it. Not that you don't know that there's bonsai in Japan, but not really understanding what is it that they're trying to do. [00:43:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:46] Speaker A: Right. And part of it is that you do have to understand Japanese culture a little bit. You know, they're not Americans. We're different than they are. They convey things differently. They don't tend to use a lot of words to try to convince you why Japanese bonsai is great. They'll just let you figure it out. Or you're going to figure it out or not. You know, nobody's in the US you have plenty of people pitching their ideas to you. Right. That's the American way. [00:44:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:14] Speaker A: Which is. Okay. That's just. Which is different. Right. So if you're, if you're an American and you're used to kind of American things. Right. You go over there and you, you're expecting an American attitude, you're not going to get it. And things are much more subtle there when they communicate. So you have to. You have to kind of put yourself in their shoes or just try to understand. And there's a message there. And there might be a message that you really do appreciate. [00:44:43] Speaker B: Right. [00:44:46] Speaker A: That we may not get here or we can incorporate to what we do here. [00:44:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:52] Speaker A: So. So, yeah, I think a big part of it is really not even a. Yeah. So much a rejection. It's just not. Just. Just not understanding. We just don't know. [00:45:06] Speaker B: We. [00:45:06] Speaker A: I don't know. It's. It's not. I'm not saying that like it's a bad thing. It's just. We're not exposed to it. It is so far away. The US Is giant country. And then on top of that, then Japan's even further. It's. It's easy to just kind of forget then, because they're just out there for sure. When there's so much info here. [00:45:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:26] Speaker A: That's around the corner kind of thing. [00:45:29] Speaker B: You know, an analogy. And I don't know if this is correct or not, but this is just how I think about it. I feel like it's almost like if you reversed it and let's say in Japan, they got really into American football. [00:45:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:45] Speaker B: Right. [00:45:46] Speaker A: Like, [00:45:49] Speaker B: they just wouldn't know how high of a level and how. How much was put into American football in the United States. Like, in the US Football is. Is like just this massive thing. [00:46:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:04] Speaker B: And there is so much that was put into developing American football over here. [00:46:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The football that you don't use your foot. Yeah, sometimes you use your foot. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, I. When you say that, I think of baseball. [00:46:25] Speaker B: Okay. [00:46:27] Speaker A: So the Japanese love baseball. [00:46:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:31] Speaker A: Right. And the interesting is they don't go around thinking that they're the greatest at baseball either. They realize this is an American sport, but they love it. Right. Just like we love bonsai here. It is interesting, you know, again, not to point out good or bad or stuff like that. It's that, you know, being an American. I'm an American. I get it. We have a mentality of we're number one. [00:47:02] Speaker B: Right. [00:47:06] Speaker A: You. You develop that mentality because the US Is a superpower. [00:47:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:47:13] Speaker A: It's. It's not like. It's not like that's something we made up. It is that way. Right. And it's been a long time, so people start kind of falling in line with that attitude. Right. That. Well, we can always do it better. We can always do it better. As opposed to, we really like that. Let's learn about that and let's, let's really learn all the nuances of that. Right. So like the Japanese will take baseball and they don't reject American baseball. Jeez, when they get really good, they come to America to play baseball. This is where it is. Right. [00:47:44] Speaker B: And. [00:47:44] Speaker A: But we don't have the same attitude the opposite way. [00:47:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:48] Speaker A: And we don't have the same attitude for any other country. Right. Not all of us, but in general, Right. It's interesting. Even doing in Bonsai working with, you know, people here is. Especially people who are considered intelligent and that's a loose term because intelligence doesn't mean you have a bunch of degrees or a PhD. Right. That's usually people say that's intelligence. But I don't consider that the case that. When I tell somebody something like when I'm teaching them something, more times than not. Well, I can't say more times than that. It could be 50, 50. There are people who are like, okay, I'm going to hear what you're saying and I'm going to apply it. I have a whole garden that proves that this works. Right. Especially if they like what they see in the garden. Right. But inevitably they always say, well, what if we did it this way? Wouldn't that work better? [00:49:04] Speaker B: Right. [00:49:05] Speaker A: Before they learned anything, before they have any experience or seen the cycles, one year, two year, three years, 10 years, right. I'm showing them how to do a graft. Well, wouldn't it be better if we tried this this way? And it's like instead of just learning what already works, they're already trying to figure out a better way to do it. And I feel that is very much an American entrepreneurial kind of style that has made us successful. Right. But it also has made us very difficult to work with. Right. And because we always think of. And in many. And in. We do, you know, we do. We are known as innovators, right. People. That's the mentality. But then the real, the side that we don't see is the people who want to innovate and they don't. There's very few Steve Jobs out there, right? Or you know, these big time guys that really innovate and there's the rest of us, right? And we're riding those coattails it seems a lot of times. Oh yeah, we're part of that. And it's like, well, not all of us are part of that. Some of us are kind of thing. So, you know, good and bad, we, we do have to realize that that is something that we do. And I, I think to learn something, it's important that, you know, I wouldn't say we should just lose our identity or anything like that, but just realize, you know, we got pros and cons of who we are just like anybody else. Let's try to curb the. The cons in the situation that's preventing us from learning something. Right. Because we keep thinking about, oh, well, we can do it better, we can do it better and. And hopefully actually learn something. Yeah. It's a very tough concept to explain without sounding like, man, we kind of dicks, you know, for thinking like that. [00:51:07] Speaker B: Right. It's interesting when you said that, it made me think that in many ways that entrepreneurial spirit is important. And there are good. There's good with that. [00:51:21] Speaker A: There's definitely goods in that, but then there. [00:51:23] Speaker B: There's also bad. [00:51:24] Speaker A: There's also bad. Yeah. [00:51:25] Speaker B: Yeah. It's just making me think of when it is appropriate and how to balance those two different things that you were just talking about. [00:51:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:34] Speaker B: And I don't have the answer for that, but it's something to, to think about in every situation. [00:51:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so. I think so. And yeah, especially if you. You start figuring at some point it's preventing you from getting better at something too. It's like, okay, you found another way to do it. Okay. Did that really help you in the long run that you actually get better as a whole? I mean, you're not going to figure out a better way to do everything, for sure. Right. And there's going to be other people that will do the exact same thing. Right. And get better and prove you wrong and. Or whatnot, whatever. [00:52:20] Speaker B: Right. [00:52:22] Speaker A: And sometimes, yeah, we, you know, that leads into, you know, techniquing a tree to death. [00:52:30] Speaker B: Right. [00:52:31] Speaker A: Trying to go a little overboard with too many crazy techniques and stuff like that. And it's like, well, you know, if it's working out pretty good and we're happy what we see, you know, it's okay to. To not always be like, well, there's a better way. There's a better way. There's a better way. [00:52:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:50] Speaker A: I got into bonsai because I like bonsai for what it is, and I'm trying to learn it as much. And I'm still learning how do bonsai that is currently in existence. I'm not trying to create some new form of it, though. Inevitably, you always. You always tweak it because you're. Everybody's a little different. [00:53:07] Speaker B: Right. [00:53:08] Speaker A: But I'm Just trying to figure out the essence of what it is now, let alone trying to pick up, take on the task of trying to somehow make it greater. [00:53:20] Speaker B: Right. [00:53:21] Speaker A: It's like I'm not interested in that so much as well. I'm just trying to figure out what is it that figure out the parts that I like for some reason, this hobby, this art, I'm figuring that out. And I do this as a profession. So I would say for those out there, that's not a bad goal, I think, as opposed to just trying to reinvent stuff all the time. Okay. That's where fads come into play. That's what fads are. We try to come up with something different. It's cool for a period of time. Then it doesn't last. Okay, There, there are things that do last a long time and bonsai definitely has lasted a long time. So I don't think it's getting replaced anytime soon with some new so called style or something like that. It's always inevitably. It always becomes some subsection of it or something that was considered. Oh yeah, that was tried at one point and it was cool at that time. But it's out of style. And there's stuff that's never out of style. That side always ends up, for me always ends up being on the Japanese side, which is kind of that more traditional. What we would say. Japanese bonsai just always seems in style, like it still always looks good. There's a feeling to it that is foreign to us especially, that attracts us to it. That's why we do it. Regardless if we know it or not. There is something about it that we're attracted to. And I would say exploring that is more important than asking yourself, well, how do I do that better? One time I had a kind of a client, you know, he's a very, they would say, an intelligent guy, you know, and he was so used to western thinking that he was like, okay, well I have a question. I don't know, something. I'm going to find out the answer, okay? And if I don't get the answer, I'm going to look somewhere else. If I don't get the answer, I'm going to keep looking and so forth, right? So like, I need the answer, I need to know it right now, right? Instead of. And I asked them one time, I said, hey, you know, if you have a question about this bonsai, and I said, I'll tell you the answer in one year, would you be willing to wait? And he was like, well, no, I mean, that's Reasonable, right? You want to know the answer, you're not going to wait for a year. I mean, it wasn't that I wasn't going to make him wait a year, but I was trying to get him to think about, you know, maybe it's time to contemplate on things a little bit and try to figure it out and not just be so, like, I found the answer. I found the answer. I'm improving, I'm changing, I'm. I found a better way, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff, right? He's so used to that kind of mentality. Instead of kind of stepping back and just looking at things and just really trying to absorb what they're seeing, you know, and in a way, not ask so many questions. You might actually find the answer just by just mulling over it a little bit, right? Instead of just looking for these kind of outside things to answer his questions. And I think that's very much kind of an Eastern thing or a Japanese thing, too, is just kind of shut up for a while and just kind of think about it. Not just like for 30 minutes or for an hour. I mean, really think about it a little bit today, a little bit tomorrow, for a very long time. You might just be enlightened at some point, right? Sometimes you get that answer too quick. You're just moving on. You're just like, boom, boom, boom, right? You're just moving. That's the American way, too, right? We're on it. [00:57:37] Speaker B: We're on it. [00:57:37] Speaker A: Task done. Next. Next. We're productive, as you might say. But are we, in that sense, right, when we're seeking some form of enlightenment or some more spiritual, say, explanation, it doesn't come just answers, and then we're on and so forth. It's something you have to think about for a while. And that's hard for us to understand because we never grew up that way, thinking that way. So it's foreign to us, but it is there. And once you get a hint of it and you explore it, you might get some satisfaction out of it. Or again, just some. Some. So there's a very different way of seeing things in life that we're not used to seeing, right? Again, we're going to be how we are because we were raised in a certain country with certain values, right? And then finally realizing that there's a whole world out there of a bunch of different people that sees things very differently and they're doing well too, right? They might be understanding things better than we are, just like we might be understanding better than they Are at whatever this situation is. Right. Again, good and bad. Of however, of both sides. So. Yeah, that was that. [00:59:14] Speaker B: Very nice. [00:59:15] Speaker A: I like it. [00:59:16] Speaker B: So wise. Okay, let's see. [00:59:26] Speaker A: People, questions, [00:59:29] Speaker B: people, questions. Let's see. What's the worst piece of advice you commonly hear in bold's eye? [00:59:38] Speaker A: Oh, that's a good question. What's the worst piece of advice? What's the worst piece of advice? There's so many bad advice. I don't. I'm just trying to figure out what's the worst one. I guess it's. Yeah, I wish that would come to me pretty quick because there are a lot of bad advice for sure. [01:00:04] Speaker B: Right. [01:00:07] Speaker A: And yeah, because there's so many aspects of bonsai that you can get bad advice for. I mean, if you're looking at just purely working on the tree. Oh, that's. That's a tough question. There's so many to choose from. I mean, I can joke. One of the worst advice I've ever heard is don't use cut paste. Right, let's talk about that. Yeah, we talked about that earlier today. That's why it reminded me of that. Well, just to clarify, not everything heals. So it's not like cut paste magically heals everything, but the ones that do heal heal better with cut pace or they actually heal as opposed to open wound. So I don't know where that came from. And you know how these things start that especially on say, a Japanese maple. Now, having said that, if you have a wound on a Japanese maple and you want an open wound, maybe you want to carve it out, then. Yeah, don't heal it. Of course. Right. But to think that you can't heal it and that somehow cut paste doesn't help is all you have to do is use it and you'll see that it works. And then that's it. That ends that conversation. So it seems kind of odd. It doesn't matter who you quote, what study you looked at. All you have to do is cut a branch off, put cut pace, sees that it shuts, and then cut another branch and see that it doesn't shut. And that answer your question? [01:01:41] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, it's interesting you mentioned that. So I think when I first got into bonsai, I really wasn't sure about cut paste and how effective, effective and efficient cut paste was at healing wounds. And I think we. I saw an article that some doctor wrote a study about landscape trees where they did some with cut paste, some without, and there was no difference in terms of healing rate. [01:02:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it it's tough because there's all these variables, right? You know, when you're looking at landscape trees, they're different trees than bonsai. As in, they're in the ground, they're growing significantly stronger. If you let them keep growing, they will heal their own wounds a lot of times because it's a waste for the tree to just have an open wound there when they can grow over it. But the tree's growing aggressive, right? And hopefully rot didn't take over and then it can't. [01:02:40] Speaker B: Right. [01:02:41] Speaker A: Also, when they're using cut paste on trees, it's straight up black tar a lot of times. And that actually might actually prevent the wound from healing because the wound can't even move it, right? It can't even roll over. It's straight up cement that they're putting onto it. So in that case, you might say, well, yeah, we put cut paste on it and it didn't work. It was like, yeah, you know, you put it on a car and it won't work. You know, whatever. And so you have to kind of think about, well, what, what cut paste are they putting? What are they considered cut paste. And in bonsai, there's a lot of cut paste that's considered cut paste. That doesn't work also, which could add to the confusion because you're like, well, I tried this cut paste and it didn't work. It was like, well, that cut paste doesn't work. It's not technically cut paste. It's just a sealant, right? It's supposed to cover an exposed area so that it doesn't dry out. It didn't. Didn't help with healing, or maybe it did help a little bit, but it doesn't work as well. Right. So I understand how that can kind of confuse things. There's really only one or two cut pieces that I use that I find that works. And then others, they actually just be more of a mess, and they don't work that well. And then some trees, it's always going to be a little different for each type of tree. But at the end of the day, with the right cut pace and then with the right cutting technique too, you gotta, you gotta. You can't just leave a stub and think it'll heal. That's not how it works. You have to cut it to the collar. And that's something. Even when they talk about big trees, right? Well, you want to leave that collar. That's where the wound heals. It's like, that's not true either. But somehow they believe That I don't know why it. The science of why they don't believe it. Because if you cut past that, the tree will still heal. It might heal slower maybe, but it still will heal. So you don't have to leave this weird color. Right. Same thing in bonsai. You know, bonsai is just a little mini tree. It's not like it's that different. It's just in a pot. So it's not as vigorous. So. Yeah, yeah, that does seem kind of. Maybe that's one of the. But yeah, some trees don't he heal. So. So putting cut paste doesn't necessarily help either. So you have to understand what heals. So you can't just say, well, I put it on my, you know, I cut this 3 inch. Even junipers can heal. Really. [01:05:16] Speaker B: That's true. Right? [01:05:17] Speaker A: You know, you cut this giant, you know, 6 inch branch off of an apple tree and then you put cup paste. You wonder why it doesn't heal. It's like, yeah, it's not going to heal. And a bonsai pot, you plant in the ground and grow the tree like three times as big. It'll heal. Yeah, it'll grow right over it. [01:05:34] Speaker B: Right. [01:05:36] Speaker A: You can't even say the wound's healing. It's just the trees growing around the wound now at that point. You know, in bonsai, when we cut a branch off and we heal it, we actually form. Getting the callus to form to eat up that space. [01:05:47] Speaker B: Right. [01:05:49] Speaker A: I kind of see that more as healing than the tree's three times the size now. Right. So it just eats itself. [01:05:57] Speaker B: One thing I see with wounds and bonsai is people only do the exterior of the wound and they don't put it on the interior. [01:06:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:06:06] Speaker B: What's your thoughts on that? [01:06:08] Speaker A: I've. I tried that before and it, it didn't really work. And, and I can understand, you know, usually it's. I, I've seen some people do it and I'll ask them, you know, why don't you put in the center? And usually it always ends up being like, well, I'm trying to save cut pace, you know, because you're trying to. Because cut pace is not, it's not free. Right. You have to pay for. So they're trying to, you know, you know, save a few bucks or something. But, but yeah, I find that that actually doesn't work at all. [01:06:37] Speaker B: So you're saying cover the entire wound. [01:06:39] Speaker A: You got to cover the entire wound. Especially if it's a wound that's, that's moist the whole way is Moist. If you leave the center open and you cut the side, the center will start to dry and it will work its way under the cut paste and expand out. And it's like you might as well have not put cut pace. So you gotta seal the whole thing and. Yeah, I get it. It's. Maybe it's a big wound, you're using a lot of cut paste, but it's worth it if your goal is to heal the wound. Don't go cheap. Don't get cheap all of a sudden. [01:07:13] Speaker B: For sure. [01:07:14] Speaker A: Just cover it. It's not that much more expensive, right? Yeah. [01:07:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:07:18] Speaker A: Okay. And I'll tell you what a tube of cut pays is. 20 bucks, let's say, right? And let's just say you used a quarter of it. When that wound heals completely, you're gonna be so happy. You, you're glad to have paid money for versus a wound that would never heal. And you're like, I'd pay 20 bucks if this wound was healed right now. [01:07:39] Speaker B: Right. [01:07:40] Speaker A: And that's, that's the tube of the cupcakes. That's the same with buying like an insecticide. I'll tell people. Oh yeah. This miticide, you know, for eight ounces is $120. Whoa. That's a lot of money, right? $120, you know, for eight ounces. But when their trees covered in spider mites and it's gray and it's all booed up, they would pay me $120 to magically turn that tree green again. Right. All of a sudden that's, that's nothing. That's not expensive. Right? But all they had to do was buy an 8 ounce bottle that's $120 and use a quarter teas or half a teaspoon a gallon. And that spider mite problem wouldn't have not, would not exist and the tree would be green. Right. But I get it now. We're funny like that with money, right? It's just some stuff we spend money on. Some stuff like whoa. And then. But there's no logic behind it. Sometimes. [01:08:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Gotcha. Nice. Okay. Yeah. [01:08:44] Speaker A: So unfortunately, I don't, I, off the top of my head, I can't think of like the worst advice. I mean, you can come up with all sorts of worst advice, but the worst advice I ever heard. [01:08:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:58] Speaker A: I don't know. It's. Yeah, I, I, Yeah, sorry. I don't, off the top of my head, I don't have like a good one that pops out at me for sure. [01:09:14] Speaker B: There's lots Lots. [01:09:17] Speaker A: There's lots of little, like little bad advices that people give, but something that's considered so detrimental, right? I've never heard anybody say, well, you know, don't water the tree or anything like that. That would be. That would be really bad, right? I. I don't think I've ever heard anybody say, well, don't fertilize the tree. Yeah, I really want to come up with a good one, but I, I can't. At least not often. I'll, you know, I'll remember right. When we're done. Yeah, right. Well be like, oh, okay, next time. [01:09:57] Speaker B: I feel like I've seen. I've seen on YouTube and like, only with very. On very rare occasion, but I've seen this one guy who would like, repot and cut a tree back super hard and just like bring it to the brink of death. [01:10:18] Speaker A: Oh, oh. [01:10:19] Speaker B: Just beat it up. Like, I don't know, maybe just. Yeah, [01:10:25] Speaker A: yeah. That's the tough thing about YouTube videos and stuff like that. It's just like. And even before YouTube, when you're looking at magazines, right? Even Japanese magazines, bonsai magazines, right? You know, you read this article, you see the pictures and you see the tree progress and you learn about this technique that they're talking about just like on a YouTube video, right? And again, it's to get you to read the magazine, to get you to watch the video. Okay? They never tell you about the stuff that failed, right? They don't write articles about how this didn't work, right? They only write about articles about how it worked great on this one tree. And they don't tell you about the 10 that died, right? So these videos, sometimes you do have to be careful because they could be videos to show something that's exciting and you get some views, but they don't show you that the tree died later. Just. They just hide it. It's not about the bones that. It's about how many clicks you get on the video. I remember what's a feel Terrible. It was a bonsai, actually. Maybe I wouldn't say a name. It's a bonsai professional that's working currently and they went to China and the person told me that they told them that do whatever you gotta do, make the tree look good. We don't care if it dies, right? Gangster. Yeah, terrible. Right, Terrible. But because they were just trying to make the event great, they didn't care about the tree, which is tough because that's not good. That's fundamentally awful. Yeah, right. And so there are people out There that do stuff like this. Right. So you do have to weed through this stuff. There are people who just want you to subscribe to something, get you to view, whatever the case, have influence over you. That's all it is. [01:12:27] Speaker B: Right. [01:12:27] Speaker A: And nothing but that and, you know, get you down the. The wrong path. [01:12:35] Speaker B: Right. [01:12:35] Speaker A: Because of some. Something like that. Yeah, yeah. [01:12:40] Speaker B: Got it. [01:12:41] Speaker A: Okay. [01:12:45] Speaker B: Is there a technique that you use today that you rarely see or you [01:12:50] Speaker A: rarely see taught in the US Techniques that I use? Well, I mean, since I've been doing a lot of grafting, a lot of people have commented that, you know, we don't. We don't see a lot of talk about grafting, like approach grafting, for example. Technique. Well, you know, and in like, a bigger picture stuff, a lot of people comment, it's like, we can't find anybody to teach us how to develop structure [01:13:19] Speaker B: in the tree [01:13:22] Speaker A: because there's just this big. This reemergent push of instant bonsai. So there's not a lot of talk about structure. So when I work with people who want to see the structure or want to learn how to develop, they're like, peter, nobody else is teaching us this. Yeah. I'm like, what? This is pretty common, you know, to do bonsai. Right. And it's not like. It's not something I came up with. This is something that I learned in Japan. I just brought it here. Right. Everybody there says, like, yeah, this is pretty common stuff. You grow a tree with wacky branches. What is this? Right? Yeah. So, yeah, I can't even take credit for it. Right? I don't take credit for it. It's what I learned. And I'm just sharing this, but apparently not a lot of people talk about that. Or other things are getting branches to the thickness that you want. And sometimes that requires branches to be like 6ft long or 3ft, whatever the case is. Or sometimes it's apparently just too much to ask to grow a branch 18 inches long or a foot long. It just looks weird. I can't have that on my tree. So you cut it prematurely. He's like, well, we grow that branch to thicken certain parts because we're trying to show age or maturity or age in the sense that this branch is one of the first branches. So it makes sense that it'd be thicker than the other branches. Just that message. Right. That we show in our bonsai seems to be foreign for some reason. Right? Yep. Like, that's. That's wild stuff. Like, that's some crazy concept stuff. Well, okay. Totally off the top of my head. Those are some things that pop. I'm sure there's more. [01:15:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, totally. Very nice. Very nice. One question is, could you review a grafting timeline for thread grafting, approach grafting, and scion grafting? But I think first maybe if we could start with just what is a thread graft, approach graft, and scion graft? And, like, what types of trees do you typically do those with? Okay, [01:15:47] Speaker A: so those three types of graph. Okay, so the scion graft is, okay, You. You cut a branch off the tree, generally on the younger part that's not very thick, you cut a little wedge on. So you cut that off the tree, right? So it's. It's by itself, and it'll just die. You just leave it like that, right? You cut a wedge on the scion, the little piece that you cut off. You decide that I want this to grow on an area on the tree, like an older area of the tree, and you want to put foliage there, right? So you. You cut a. You cut into the live tissue of wherever you want to graft that scion to, and you. You just basic. You plug it in there, you tape it up, it connects. And now that branch will start growing in that area where it didn't have a branch. And if the branch is super leggy, then once it takes, then you cut off the stuff that you didn't want. [01:16:42] Speaker B: Right? [01:16:42] Speaker A: And then you use the graft. Okay. You can do this type of grafting on most trees, conifers and deciduous. But most of the time, when you see this technique, you'll see it on, like, black pines, junipers, but you can do it on maples. [01:16:58] Speaker B: See it on ume. [01:16:59] Speaker A: Yeah, Umes will do that. So, yeah, a number of trees, you can do that. Just be aware that on trees that you do that kind of graft on, each tree reacts a little differently. On conifers, I find, like, junipers and black pines, it doesn't swell that much. But on deciduous tree or trees that grow faster, it can swell. And sometimes, yes, the graft took, but the results of that swell might not be what you want. On some trees, ume seems to be fine. [01:17:34] Speaker B: Okay. [01:17:35] Speaker A: But if you do do that on a juniper or something, it. You. You have to realize that it will kind of girdle a little bit. But if you're planning on growing, letting that scion grow and become a thicker branch, then it eats it all up and you're fine. But if you're grafting with the intent of it staying small, it may cause A a weird pattern there where it connected that will never go away because you didn't grow the graft out. And you're just trying to use it to fill in this little gap you have. And it's staying small so it doesn't look good. Yes, your graph was successful, but ultimately it failed because it looks weird. It's this weird bulge there for some reason. So you, most of the time, Scion grass, the time frame for it, for the most part, you want to do it before the tree starts to grow in the spring. So in our area, January, February, if you're in areas where it doesn't get that cold, you can do it November, December, the year prior. Okay, you do the graphs, you do the wrap all the way stuff. And then in the springtime it should start to take and by summer you should start seeing some results. Like you'll see the foliage in the graft start to push out if you cover it, or you see a candle start to grow out if it was a black pine, or you see the foliage on the juniper start to grow out. So if you see that happening in the summer, you're in great shape. You don't want to mess with it too much. There's some things that you might end up doing, but if it's pushing out, just let it do its thing and you let it go all the way until the end of the year, say about November, when for sure it's not going to be hot, it's everything is slowed down or coming to a stop. Then you can take all the plastic, whatever you wrapped it with, and you can essentially free the graft right now along the way. Like in the summer, if you see that the graph is starting to take some of the exterior foliage that you are trying to get rid of, you can cut some of that back and that will help. See autofill, that will help. But yeah, you leave the graph till the end of the year, that's when you open it all up, take all the stuff off. You might still need the tie where you connected the scion to the branch just for a little extra care and then you take that off later. But yeah, by the end of the year you'll know it's. Well, usually by summer it might just be brown too. But don't give up. Sometimes the needles just turn brown, but the bud is still alive and it's still good at the end of the year. So, you know, don't, don't lose hope. So the timeline is you graph in January, February, let's say in the summer, you might check it, but you should start seeing it start to take. But it's not fully taken until the end of the year when you take all the hardware off and it's still green. And then at that time, you can cut the leggy stuff off, too, that you're trying to replace. Don't start wiring or anything, because the connection's there, but it's not solid. You can still rip it out, so you don't want to tweak it. So that's one year. The next year, in spring, it'll start to grow, and by summer, it'll have extended it out. And if it's a juniper, sometimes at that time you can start wiring it, because now you got full, you know, two. You got one full year and a solid growing spring for it to connect. And then you might be the wire, especially if you notice that it's very vigorous. But if it's not, don't. Don't rush it. Maybe it's at the end of the second year when it's strong enough, and then you do it then, you know, you don't want to spend the whole year grafting it and then get too excited, wire it, and then rip it out, and then you just lost the whole year. All right. So just take your time. Okay, so that's for scion grafts. [01:21:35] Speaker B: One question regarding scion grafts. So I have always used a grafting knife or some type of knife to make the incision on the trunk, and I've always grafted onto branches. [01:21:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:21:50] Speaker B: Have you used grafting chisels very often for scion grafts? [01:21:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:21:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Like them? [01:21:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Usually you have to use chisels when you start grafting into larger branches or trunks, because you can't just cut a giant wedge on the trunk. [01:22:05] Speaker B: Right. [01:22:08] Speaker A: And even if you could cut a giant wedge, you can't even fold it. You can't fold the trunk back. So you can open the gap to stick the scion in. Right. So at some point that. That technique kind of falls apart. Right. It works on smaller branches that are flexible. So, yeah, A chisel is just. It's just another form of a scion graph where it's hard to explain, but essentially, you're. You're cutting kind of an L shape on the trunk, and you. So that you can then insert the chisel down into it to kind of fold open a little flap, and then you stick the scion onto that flap. So I've done that on black. I've not done that on junipers, but I'VE done that on black pines. And they work. Yeah, they work out fine. It's not crazy. More difficult. But generally, grafting black pines is considered one of the more easy trees to do to graph. Not to discourage anybody that's had failures doing that. Just keep it up. It will work. Okay. Most definitely. [01:23:14] Speaker B: Cool. [01:23:16] Speaker A: So for approach graphs and thread graphs. Right. So approach grafts is pretty much just taking an existing branch from either the tree itself, that's a long branch that you can bring around, and then graft it onto wherever. Right. It could be the trunk, it could be the branches, all that stuff. And so now you have to cut a groove on the trunk, place the whip into that trunk from the same tree, and then, you know, you attach it and all that stuff, and you get it to meld together. Not to say that on junipers, for example, if it's a Sierra or say it's a California juniper. And I want to graft Kishu. And I did an approach graft. I have a whip that has its own rootstock. And then you graft onto the tree. So it's the same thing. It's just not a branch from itself. So on approach graft, if it's a deciduous tree, like a Chinese quince, Japanese maple, a very straightforward. You. You. You can cut a V wedge in the trunk. Let's say you're grafting in the trunk. You. You plan on. Okay, I'm gonna bring this whip over, you cut a little V wedge. It doesn't have to be that perfect a size. It could be too big. That'd be fine. And then you take the whip, and you just gotta make sure that V wedge is thick enough that when you put that whip in that groove, it's flush with the trunk. Right. So it's. So the. The whip isn't, like, sticking out or bulging out. Okay. Now I do cut the. The little whip on the top and the bottom. So the cambium is matte touching the cambium of the trunk. And I then pin it with pins. Right. To keep it flat. And then I'll put cut paste. Some people use grafting tape and wrap it around to hold it. That's doing it. I find that I have to use the pins because they hold it down a little bit better, whereas the graphing tape kind of stretches. So the graph really takes in bulges that it might push itself out. [01:25:27] Speaker B: And then. [01:25:28] Speaker A: And then it didn't take because it pushed itself out. Because deciduous trees can, like Chinese quince or Japanese can heal aggressively where it could just push it out instead of actually take. I've done it on Japanese maple, Chinese quince, trident maples, Korean hornbeam, usually on deciduous trees. I'll do approach grafts if I can't do a thread graft. Right, because thread graft requires you to defoliate the branch and trees like Korean hornbeam doesn't like that as much. And plus the branches, it's not straight, it's like zigzag. So it's a little harder to go through. You might rip out buds. So I tend to do approach graphs for Korean hornbeams. The time frame for it is the nice thing with approach grafts is that you really can do it any time of year because it's attached to itself so it's being fed at any time. I usually do it either before spring when there's no leaves, or I do it during the growing season. Anytime during the growing season when the tree's active. [01:26:36] Speaker B: Do you always, if you, if you thread graft deciduous, do you always defoliate the entire tree? Because I know you have to defoliate the branch that you're going to thread graft. [01:26:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't always defoliate the entire tree. Most of the time I do end up doing that. So here's an example. Well, for the approach graph, I'll just wrap up that and say that for approach graph, usually if I can't do a thread graph, I'll do an approach graph. Just be aware that if you do an approach graph where it's grafted, it's going to callous up and it's going to swell. So you got to make sure that whatever branch you're grafting, that's something you're prepared to grow thicker and it will clean all that up. But if it's an approach graft and it's going to be thin, it's not going to look good. It's going to look all messy because you'll see the, the weird callus over that approach graph. [01:27:35] Speaker B: Okay. [01:27:36] Speaker A: Which is why if I can do a thread graph, it's much cleaner. Okay. So for, oh well, let's say for the approach graph timeline, you can do it right before spring, anytime during the growing season. Usually I don't do it going into winter because it's kind of like, well, nothing's really going to happen. You might as just wait until a little bit later. Okay. Usually whenever I do the approach graph, the timeframe of when it takes is usually about one year later. Sometimes if you do in the early spring, at the end of the Year, it might be fine. Or even in the summer, it may have taken you. Sometimes you get lucky. It just really took. And can you separate it at that time? Yeah, absolutely. But most of the time it's going to be one year. And so the following year, you look at it, okay, you take the hardware out. Whatever you use, it looks like it took. You find that the exit portion is thicker than the insert portion. And you know that, okay, it's melded. And then you cut the. The back end off. Okay. And then you seal it with cut paste and get it to heal. Then you grow that branch out. If the branch looks strong, you can wire it and start moving it. Whatever the. Right. Just be careful. Right? Some grafts, they're going to take really well. Maybe other grafts, maybe part of it, or only a little bit took. But it did take. So you got to make that determination. Oh, this took really well. Or kind of not so well. I better not mess with it. Okay. For thread graphs. Thread graphs are. I tend to do that on trident maples or Japanese maples, trees that I can defoliate. And essentially I take a whip from the same tree. It could be from a different tree if I'm changing the foliage, like if it's a root graph or something, but I'm taking a whip from the same tree. There's no branch on a certain part of the trunk. And so I drill a hole through the trunk that's bigger than the whip, like significantly bigger, because I don't want to jam up the buds, just trying to snake it through a tiny hole. So I drill a pretty big hole. I put the long whip through that hole, out the exit where I want the branch to be. And then I pin it with a chopstick or a little piece of wood. And then I put some doughy cut paste and let it heal. And when the callus heals on the trunk, it will meld onto the whip and it become part of the tree, or it will all connect together. You don't have to do any cutting or anything. Just place it in there. Essentially, the tree will eat the branch and then connect it. Right? That's a thread graph. And if you keep that branch small, it's just a little mound at the base, the swelling, but it's very small, very clean. If you grow a big branch, then it's fine. You're growing a big branch. Timeline. So you were asking earlier about, do you defoliate the whole tree if you're doing a thread graft? Most of the time when I'm Doing a thread graph. Let's say that, like the time frame is I do it either before everything leafs out. So again, January, February, or I wait until the foliage hardens off and I do it in May, which I'm usually defoliating the tree anyways for other reasons. And then, okay, then I do this thread graph. And so most of the time I do that. If I didn't do it in May, I might do it in June, July, and again anytime during the growing season. Here's an example of when I don't defoliate the whole tree. Say you have a Japanese maple and you want to do a thread graph. You defoliated in May, but you didn't do a thread graph. Then all the leaves came back. You're looking at the tree in July. There's some wips that are growing. You cut it, you cut back, whatever you need to cut back. And you're like, I think I need to do a thread graph. And you have the long branch you can use. Now, the problem is that maybe this tree can't handle a second defoliation. And now you can't just defoliate the tree for the sake of then defoliating one whip to do the graft. And the tree just kind of falls apart. Right. Because it weakens it too much. So you have to leave the foliage on the tree and defoliate just the branch, which is very hard on the branch because it weakens that because you've just weakened one branch but not the whole tree. That's like a clear sign for the tree to get rid of this branch. Right. The good thing is that usually the long whip that you're using is stronger than the rest of the tree because it's this long whip. Right. So it's already stronger. So hopefully that helps. And so you actually at that in those cases where you can't defoliate the rest of the tree, or maybe it's a tree that you can't defoliate in general. You have to leave the foliage and you just go for it and you defoliate the. The whip and hope that works out. And most of the time it does. Can you do a thread graph on a. An elm? I've. Yeah, I've done that. So, yeah. Other trees. Yeah, A lot of trees, you can do it. I've done approach graphs on olives. Yeah, I've done. [01:33:07] Speaker B: Have you done thread graft on coast live oak? [01:33:12] Speaker A: I've never. [01:33:14] Speaker B: Let's see. [01:33:14] Speaker A: That sounds familiar. I've done approach grabs on a coast live oak. I don't think I've ever thread grafted it. [01:33:23] Speaker B: I want to say Julian's said he did one and it was successful. [01:33:27] Speaker A: Oh, that's good. [01:33:28] Speaker B: But I think that's my memory and I just was drinking whiskey and eating pie, so. Oh. [01:33:34] Speaker A: And maybe he didn't say it. Well, I don't. Yeah, I don't think he'd lie about it. Right. [01:33:39] Speaker B: No. [01:33:39] Speaker A: Yeah. It's just. Did he really say it? [01:33:42] Speaker B: No. It's my memory. 100% my dream. [01:33:46] Speaker A: Well, you know, there's one way to find out. [01:33:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:33:49] Speaker A: Okay. I'm pretty sure Pro Scrap will work a thread graph. I don't see why it wouldn't work. Yeah, you have to defoliate it, but it's not like you can't defoliate a live oak for sure. That's. That's no problem. Yeah, but. But yeah, for those that are planning on doing thread graphs, I. I do emphasize. Don't. Don't get. Don't get wimpy on drilling that hole. Drill a very large hole so that the branch that you're putting through, it's. It's like. It's like a tiny car in a giant tunnel right now. [01:34:22] Speaker B: There's gotta be too big of a hole. [01:34:24] Speaker A: But yeah. Yeah, you don't want to overboard either. You just want to make sure that when you're putting the gr. The branch through that hole, that you. You got plenty of space for that bud to go through without it catching on anything rubbing. Funny, because the last thing you want to do is do a graft. Set it where you want it, it actually takes, and then find out the bud that you need to use is gone. Yeah. And then the next one is like two inches further away, and you just successfully grafted a leggy branch or a branch with long inner nodes onto your tree. That's pretty discouraging, for sure. So. So just be careful. Don't be careful with that, bud. Drill a little bit bigger hole than you think you need, so there's plenty of room to get it through without any damage. Got it. That's. That's the main thing. Nice. [01:35:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:35:17] Speaker A: Nice. [01:35:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Solid. All right. Awesome, man. Well, I think that. I mean, there were some other questions, but I think we covered quite a bit. [01:35:27] Speaker A: Okay. All right, great. [01:35:29] Speaker B: And I'm. I gotta get. We gotta get some sleep, so we're. [01:35:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got a workshop tomorrow for a workout tomorrow. Getting pretty late. [01:35:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:35:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:35:40] Speaker B: Awesome. But seriously, thank you so much, Peter. I love chatting with you. [01:35:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Again. [01:35:47] Speaker B: And the pie was phenomenal. [01:35:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. We'll have some more tomorrow. [01:35:52] Speaker B: Sounds good. [01:35:53] Speaker A: I bet you. [01:35:54] Speaker B: I bet you Max will not eat a slice, but Lonnie will take one. [01:35:58] Speaker A: Lonnie definitely will take one. Yeah. Max has been pretty good about, you know, not eating sugar. [01:36:02] Speaker B: Yeah. But, yeah, we'll see. [01:36:08] Speaker A: Awesome. [01:36:09] Speaker B: Well, hey, thank you so much, man. [01:36:10] Speaker A: I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. [01:36:13] Speaker B: So, so fun working with you. Great. [01:36:16] Speaker A: Thank you. [01:36:17] Speaker B: Thank you. I appreciate it. [01:36:18] Speaker A: Thank.