Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: To baby trees,
[00:00:11] Speaker B: The Black Pondo podcast.
[00:00:15] Speaker C: You know, I think you were just, you kind of were in the formative stages of starting as a Banzai professional.
And I just, I got the hunch that, you know, this was somebody that, that I could.
It's the best way to say it, that in addition to being somebody that knew a lot more about it than I did, that this was that whatever goals I did have, because at the time it was just, hey, I want to get the best quality trees that I can. But you know what? It, you know, as I started to get a better picture of that, I think that, I think that, you know, that's where the relationship with Julian started to develop.
[00:01:04] Speaker B: Fantastic. Fantastic. And I guess what made you realize that you wanted to work with a professional?
[00:01:16] Speaker C: Because I didn't know what I was doing.
And I think that, because I saw that, you know, the, the, the frustration that I felt from sort of not really having a, an idea of where to go from, like a long term development perspective and that, you know, I mean, I put a pair of scissors in my hand and I really don't see the big picture.
And I think that what I was getting from the type of education that I found in like bonsai clubs and in, you know, when you would just sit with a bunch of people who are about as knowledgeable as you are, or who maybe are just doing it because it's a fun way to spend a few hours on a Saturday morning, that wasn't really what I wanted to do.
And so I think I remember asking myself, am I learning what I need to know in the invol, you know, in the places that I've been going so far, and the answer was no.
And I would, you know, the more that I would follow bonsai professionals or bonsai collectors on Instagram or the more Internet research I would do, the more I realized that I really wanted to build a collection that was of higher quality than what I knew how to, what I knew how to cultivate.
And I think that that was probably where I realized that I, I better go.
I better find somebody that does this professionally and see whether or not that relationship works.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: Yeah, fantastic.
Just backing up a, a bit. I feel like we didn't give you a fantastic intro for anyone that might be interested. Do you post very many trees on Instagram these days?
[00:03:08] Speaker C: Well, I think that I probably will start to, but no. Most of my Instagram content is either real estate related because it's what I do for money, or it's skiing related every now and Then I, I post stuff but I, I really don't do it enough. Um, if anybody's listening to this, I will try very hard to start doing that better.
[00:03:30] Speaker B: And where, where are you guys located? How far away are you from, from, from each other and what type of real estate are you involved with?
[00:03:39] Speaker C: I sell houses. It's been family business for as long as I've been alive, but mostly that was industrial warehouses and commercial real estate.
As far as how far apart we live, Julian, what is about like probably about 5, 10 miles or something like that?
[00:03:53] Speaker A: Yeah, like distance is pretty close. Maybe he's a bit over 10 miles and let's just like with, in any commuting in like LA county, just, just depends the time you leave could be pretty quick to get to your place, like under 30 minutes. But I think if I, if I leave during commuter hours then I, it's not as bad as like other LA drives. It could be like 45 at the most, maybe 50 minutes.
But not, not too bad overall I would say we're like pretty like close, like distance wise.
[00:04:32] Speaker C: Close enough so that I can run a tree over there if there's an emergency.
[00:04:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, nice.
[00:04:39] Speaker B: That's.
[00:04:40] Speaker C: Oh, sorry. I was also going to say also close enough so that we're in sort of similar hardiness zones and climates which I think has been beneficial for, you know, boarding trees to the, to the degree that we've done that so far.
[00:04:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that, that is super nice to have a professional in the same climate zone and, and experiencing the same kind of conditions just so that you guys can compare notes and find out what works horticulturally. So that, that is, that is fantastic. And it's so funny.
I'm used to Slo County, San Luis Obispo county. It's so much less populated here. Like 10 miles away is like nothing that's like a 10 minute drive or a 5 minute drive or something. But la, I know gets wild depending on where you're going to. Exactly.
[00:05:30] Speaker C: So yeah, yeah.
I can count on one hand the number of times that I've been to the beach in the past, I don't know, three years.
[00:05:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Ah, ah.
So tell me, tell me about your collection these days. Kind of fast forwarding to, to now.
Like tell me about your collection.
[00:05:56] Speaker C: Yeah, I would say that, you know, I've, I've probably got what, somewhere around like 80 trees. You know, I would say of those maybe half of them have a degree of potential that I'm you know, sort of bullish on.
And then of Those, I would say maybe half again. So like maybe, I don't know, 20 to 25 of those trees might be things that are around a decade from now in my collection. You know, I, I think that I've gone through the typical pattern of, you know, buying everything that I could see that looked cool initially. And then in the process of working with a professional, I mean you start, you know, you learn pretty quickly what, you know, the difference between maybe having an eye for something that looks interesting and something that can actually be developed and long term has a high degree of potential.
In terms of the things that I have what seems to be growing really well in, in my backyard, oaks and olives, obviously. And I'd say I have, I don't know, between those two species, seven or eight trees.
I've got seven or eight black pines, which also seem to do well in my backyard.
I've got again as many junipers, more junipers I think than that. And of those I would say most of them are probably a toy gawa, but obviously you're Sierra, which lives over at Julian's right now and a couple Cali's, a grafted rmj. That's a really cool project that we've been working on.
What am I forgetting stuff like that. And then I think that I also, I really love the small ones, but I'm realizing that the level of precision needed for those is one of those things that requires a lot of very, very careful attention.
So I would say that I probably have, I don't know, 30 shohin sized trees maybe. Would you say that's about right, Julian?
[00:08:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess I never counted somewhere between 15 to 30 shohin trees. I. Yeah, I don't really know the exact number.
[00:08:27] Speaker C: And again, of those I would say that maybe there are 10 that I have high hopes for in the long run. Some of them are just fillers for, you know, bonsai stands at NACA in the past couple of years or you know, what hopefully will become like pbe expos.
But, but yeah, I'd say that, you know, I've gotten past the stage of buying things that are just going to die.
You know, I've gone through the process of, you know, that sort of initial naivete of being like, oh well, I can grow this. And you know, watching a, you know, a, a mugo pine die or Choju buys die. And, and, and, and I'm, I've gotten to the point where I really try to limit myself to the things that I know have a chance of thriving in, you know, what Am I. What are we, like 9.5 to 10 hardiness zone, something like that?
[00:09:25] Speaker A: Yeah. So I, I think that's right, but it's. We're probably like, right on the edge. So I, I don't really know for like, LA county. Like what.
I guess also depends where. But. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not actually sure what.
[00:09:37] Speaker C: What we are, but, you know, for the most part, I, I, you know, I mean, I, I wouldn't say that my collections, I mean, it's. I'm not like, I don't have a bunch of stuff that's weird and exotic.
And at this point, I, I really just try to get things that I try to get the best quality material that I can get my hands on and that I can afford. I certainly went through, you know, I mean, it's like. And I think that this is sort of also what gets into. And hopefully what involves Julian more is that I'm not really. I, I don't.
To the extent that I have an ego in this, I think that it's, you know, it has more to do in, in the collection itself and sort of all the accoutrements that go along with buying the best pots I can find and the best suiseki I can find and all this stuff that goes along with wanting to have quality show trees and then show them.
As far as being the guy who says, oh, I developed this myself, I realized pretty early on that, you know, that it was going to take longer than I was comfortable taking to become the bonsai artist that I wanted to be. And that it was a lot. It made a lot more sense to sort of think of myself as a.
A patron, a practitioner, a bonsai enthusiast, a collector.
And, And I think that that's where the relationship with Julian has become so valuable. And, you know, where I view that as a partnership more than as like a, you know, a, I don't know, a, you know, client, professional relationship.
[00:11:28] Speaker B: Very nice, Very nice.
Going back to a couple things that you mentioned earlier. One, it's funny, I was talking with Peter T. Just a week or so ago, and he just got into saltwater aquariums and he's. He's got his first tank in a long time. And he was basically saying with bonsai, like, you really should try and buy the species that work well in your area and not buy one of everything however he. He feels like.
And I completely agree with this. I just think it's something that you have to almost experience, like, it's almost unavoidable that you have to buy a bunch of stuff in the beginning and then figure, like, figure it out that way.
[00:12:09] Speaker A: You.
[00:12:09] Speaker B: It's like a lesson that you have to learn the hard way almost. And everybody goes through it.
And I think even Peter was like, yeah, like, I feel that way in the saltwater aquarium industry right now or, or with the saltwater aquarium hobby. So I think that's super funny.
And also wanted to say I saw. I've seen pictures of your Rocky Mountain juniper and, and a lot of your trees, and you have some absolutely stunning killer material.
And so I'm very impressed with the level of, of trees that you have in only being into bonsai for not that long. Since 2021, you said, right?
[00:12:48] Speaker C: Five years. Yeah. No, thank you. Appreciate that. And to point to what you were saying is, early on, I remember there was.
There was a guy that used to go to, like, Fuji Banzai Nursery on Saturdays, drove up from San Diego to do it, shout out to Gary Nansen.
And I remember he said to me early on, you know, he'd been doing it for a long time, and he was like, you're gonna kill trees, and it's okay, you know? Cause I remember, like, I, I had just lost a tree, and I was heartbroken about it. And sort of what I realized is that you do watch them die, you know, and, and I think that part of what I've really fallen in love with in this is because I don't have kids also. So the idea that I am cultivating something and that it's my responsibility to try and get it to its highest potential is, it's, it's, you know, it makes it more than just a hobby,
[00:13:49] Speaker A: I guess you could say.
[00:13:50] Speaker C: I, you know, I just, you know, it's. I, I mean, I, I don't need to say it to either, you know, I mean, I don't need to explain it to either one of you guys, but you just kind of fall in love with the things.
Absolutely. And you go out every morning. You just sort of, like, looking for any signs of, like, progress or distress. And, you know, I mean, I, I, I. There are days where I really don't want to go out into the world and get myself paid because I, I'd rather just stay in my backyard and, and, and, you know, dick around with trees. If I could say.
[00:14:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Yeah, I completely agree with you. I'd rather do that, too.
Awesome. Well, question for both of you. I would love to hear both. I, I think this is just a question that I should ask everybody that is on the podcast. But what. What kind of bonsai goals do both of you have?
Maybe, Jeff, do you want to start first and then Julian can go after that, if that's cool with you?
[00:14:51] Speaker C: What are my goals? I think that, you know, I mean, I want to just.
I want to have the best trees that I can. I want to show those trees. I mean, I joke with Julian that I want to be Jeff Stern someday, and, you know, that's a funny goal.
I admire it.
I admire your. And I'm coming for you, man. But, but, yeah, no, I, you know, I, it's like I said. I just, you know, I mean, I, I want to watch them grow. I want to.
I, I want to know that I am continuing to learn to care for the collection that I'm responsible for and be as responsible and as effective as I can in the stewardship of. Of the, the things that, you know, come into, you know, come into the backyard.
I think that, you know, I, I, Yeah, you know, I, I want to show them. I want people to see them.
I want to share them with the world. I don't particularly, you know, I mean, I, I hope that they're good enough for that.
I want to.
I want to stop seeing the juvenile growth on all of my itoigawa, you know, shohin junipers, and sort of get that dialed because it really pisses me off.
And, you know, and I. And I want to keep finding, like I said, you know, I mean, good material that, that I, you know, that, that both Julian and I want to.
[00:16:29] Speaker B: Very nice. Very nice.
[00:16:30] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:16:32] Speaker A: Well put.
[00:16:32] Speaker B: I like it.
[00:16:33] Speaker A: Thanks.
[00:16:34] Speaker C: I, I want. And just to add to that real quickly, I want to.
It doesn't work if, if both of us aren't engaged in the material.
I've. I've learned that, too, in the time.
[00:16:46] Speaker B: I like that.
[00:16:47] Speaker C: Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:16:50] Speaker B: Solid.
Yeah. I want to make sure. Don't let me forget to ask you, like, about material selection and how you guys work together on that. I guess.
[00:17:02] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:17:03] Speaker B: Uh, but before we get to that, Julian, what about you? What are your goals these days?
[00:17:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I guess, like, for me, like, my goals also be different since it's. It's also like my profession and livelihood, but say, like, my, My core or I guess, like, origin motives for doing bonsai is just because I, I, I love and, and appreciate this art, like, a lot. Like, I, I really find, like, value and enjoyment in some of, kind of the, the deeper philosophies that's just ingrained with the practice and just like engaging with nature and being able to cultivate trees. So, so in the purest sense it's like I just want to be able to continue to enjoy and to make nice trees. But, but then that motive is maybe more like complicated. And then the pursuit of making it and, and pursuing it as my livelihood, I would, which I've learned over the years. And it's, it's a balance where, where to fulfill both ends. It's that, well, it's one I, I have to keep that, the purity of the passion alive so I don't burn out long term. But also the, the success and sustainability of my business enables me to work on trees longer and trees more. And it also by saying that, I'm not saying that people have to be a professional to pursue bonsai very deeply, that's not the case at all. It's a very like personal decision for oneself to decide to do that.
But these days, just, just continuing to build my business and work more, I guess a major goal that I, I'm working to, towards is that I really want to start building and having like my own on site nursery.
That's probably like the current hurdle before me. And so there's a lot of paths I'm exploring and just working a lot and saving a lot of money.
But yeah, hopefully to have like a, a beautiful garden, I can host people and produce a lot of work and just continue to keep cultivating trees and just keep the enjoyment alive.
Very nice.
[00:19:28] Speaker C: One of the other things that is worth touching on because I know that we've talked about it in the past, Julian is, I mean I remember very early on that we would have these discussions about that there was a tremendous amount of room for growth in the bonsai community in Southern California.
And one of the things that impressed me about you very early on was that you really had, you, you had a lot of care and a lot of motivation to be directly involved and take on a leadership role in that respect.
Which I think was one of those things that made me go, oh this, you know, this isn't, you know, this isn't just some dude who's you know, sort of rolling out to people's gardens and you know, cutting things here and cutting them there and you know, waving his arms around like, you know, he knows what he's doing, charging me a grand and then, you know, sort of not really seeing long term, long term goals and growth.
And so I think that that idea and you know, to your credit, you know, that was right before, it was maybe a year before you or a year and a half before you took over the NACA exhibition.
And, you know, I mean, we can talk about it and maybe a different question, but that whole thing about how, you know, I mean, even now, like when we were talking on Wednesday about a more intensive workshop, you know, like quarterly kind of thing, what I see Julian doing is spending a lot of energy in thinking about how he can create a. A more involved, a more cohesive, and most importantly, a more informed bonsai community.
You know, not just nationwide, but specifically in, you know, Southern California. Um, and. And, you know, I mean, it's like I'm forever grateful that, um, you know, that. That I. That I found Julian when I did.
Yeah,
[00:21:41] Speaker B: I think that's a really important point that you just hit on Jeff. And I know I see Julian playing just a massive role in Southern California bonsai.
And I do see him very much as a leader. And I'm really excited to see everything that he does with Southern California bonsai.
And of course, I mean, there's. There's others as well that are going to do great things. But I mean, I absolutely. Julian, I just think you're going to play a very large role within developing Southern California bonsai over the next, like, several decades. And I'm really excited to see that.
That kind of reminds me of something. I wanted to talk about bonsai clubs a bit, and I feel like this is just maybe a good spot to.
So maybe I'll rant just for a sec.
Yeah. So, like, first off, I am all about bonsai clubs. I think bonsai clubs are a fantastic way to develop a good social network, have a lot of fun with bonsai, and I think they're often a great way to learn bonsai.
However, I do think that we can always look at different ways, different models of doing the things that we do on a regular basis. And so one thing that. That I've been thinking about a lot is just the bonsai club model and how we might be able to improve it.
And so I guess my thought is, I think it would be really cool if there were more clubs similar to Bay Island Bonsai, when that was a thing where essentially a professional develops a club and the professional really leads a club and puts everything that that that professional has into a club. And it's kind of like a.
A club with maybe a more clear objective or where all the club members are swimming more in the same direction because they're. They're working under somebody that is guiding them and coaching and helping and teaching.
And I don't know, I, I guess I really can see you doing that, Julian. I'm not sure like if this is exactly what you're thinking, but essentially I think of it more like a jiu jitsu gym.
So there are all these different jiu jitsu studios or gyms and essentially there's generally a professor or, or a jiu jitsu teacher or an instructor and individuals pay a membership to go there. And so I, I really think that it has to work for both parties. So it has to work for the club member. They, the club members have to be taken care of and gain knowledge for the money that they're putting into the club. But then they also have to be willing to take care of the professional.
And I just think that that model could be very beneficial and I could see it totally going down in Southern California. I guess I was curious maybe kind of your, both of your thoughts.
[00:24:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I guess there's like a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of layers to that. You know, like early on I used to have a much like harsher view on bonsai clubs because I, I would, I would think of things maybe like too black and white where I'm like, oh well, if there is a better way to do something or, or like, and then, or say like simple things of just in like pursuing it and practicing bonsai and, and why would people not do that or say take advantage of some resource or practice? Bonsai at a higher level is a very like rigid and harsh way of thinking in a sense.
And so maybe before I looked at clubs not in the best light that I'm like well, it's a social organization first, a practicing bonsai organization a second.
And, and really what comes down to is that I mean people have different investment levels and, and interests in anything, right? How much mental bandwidth or resources they, they allocate to a pursuit and is not necessarily everybody's goal that they, they have to pursue bonsai to some certain level. Ultimately they pursue it to the extent where they find enjoyment and value for themselves. And, and so I kind of wanted a preface with that that I, I, I don't think like clubs are bad institutions in the bonsai world. They do actually bring a lot of the community together and do a lot to expose bonsai, especially to the general public.
And naturally they'll be like different levels of how deeply people want to engage. I, I, I would say like my role as a professional or expectation then with the client student is that I, I'm actually okay with whatever level of interest the Client wants to pursue bonsai at. But the way I describe it, it's that their, their expectations with their goals are kind of these good faith beliefs or good faith decisions that for what they envision bonsai is to them and to the extent they want to pursue it, they are being honest with themselves. Right? Because it's, there's no in a sense no by coincidence or and sorry, I lost lost my my track there. But, but it's kind of my, my expectation say for the client students is that as long as they're, they're honest with what they want out of bonsai and that coincides with the, the efforts and, and decisions they put in, then in a sense I'm okay with that. But, but frequently I, I find just working with people, it's like maybe that goal is misaligned or they think that like my trees will get to the certain level or I will have some degree of I guess mastery in the practice. But say you're, you're doing the same thing over and over or making the same mistakes over and over or sometimes it's like bad habits. You're ingrained in, in a singular methodology and just say just like mentally very rigid. It's is the tree will, will not suddenly change course, right? It will be honest to the conditions, cares and intentionality that it receives.
So say like we're starting to talk about like creation of say professional type organizations like BIB or say even something like like modeled after Jiu Jitsu club. You know, I, I, I don't know how actually directly comparable that is like in, in a sense, I mean there are, there are of course good and bad things in every sport or practice. But I, I guess the thing that I, I enjoy about like Jiu Jitsu, I mean first to, to practice anything it's you need, you, you have to roll with somebody, right? It's not like you're just going through the moves. It's it's like you have to I guess like fight somebody at some point and put your knowledge and practice in the real world application within the context of the sport and the gym.
And then people say very frequently like oh, Jiu Jitsu is very humbling sport because people will realize very quickly it's like what they practice or, or envisioned in their mind, it falls apart in the real world or their, their execution is, is highly inconsistent. So that, that learning curve tends to be very high. But you, you get confronted with that I guess within my experience like day one. So it's kind of like you develop a Honest relation of the reality before you. And you can then undertake efforts, right, to approve that ability and skill.
I, I feel in bonsai that is.
Is a little convoluted where it's kind of like, well, how do people gauge where they are at? And that goes even like deeper. It comes down to like, how do people assign value in bonsai? What do they think is. Is important and can they, can. Can they translate that in like, objectively in a way that's clear?
If you can't establish these things first, then it's kind of like you're. There's just like no basis or like construction in your, your education and, and teaching and, and I'm. And then I, I started thinking, well, I'm not sure how, how effective like a, A, A program or club is to teach people.
Yeah, I, yeah, I mean this is like a.
Kind of hard to answer in a sense, a lot of layers to this, but say within the control of my own expectations and groups. I more am trying to investigate the relation with the clients and students. Like, how do they perceive bonsai? And is there a way that it's not just me telling them, but they can extract and understand value themselves? And then when they have that connection and then you really can. Can push forward and people just get like, better and better.
[00:31:58] Speaker B: Very nice, Very nice.
Jeff, did you have any thoughts on that?
[00:32:04] Speaker C: I do have some and you're probably going to want to edit some of them out.
You know, I mean, I think to, to be blunt and sort of, you know, straight talk it. You know, I mean, early on I just realized there was so much bullshit in Southern California of people that really thought that they were better than they were or that they.
And I'll try and find a diplomatic way of saying this as well, but I just encountered so many people that would just, you know, sort of puff their chest out and talk about how they were bonsai masters or how their material was really good. And I just very quickly realized that, you know, that, that, I mean, aside from not being like the energy and the vibe that I wanted and I was looking for that it wasn't true.
You know, you go to a few swap meets and a few, and you realize that there are different levels of again, the investment that people are willing to make and the expectations that they have. And I think that, you know, maybe that's starting to get closer to what Julian was getting at, which is that clubs can often have a lot of different people that have just a huge variety of goals. And so I think that maybe like as a professional, the ability to sort of, it's. It's almost like play matchmaker of go. Okay. I think these people get along with these people and that the, you know, the sort of the, the synergy or the hive mind mentality that happens when you get people that have similar goals or that have similar objectives in terms of what they are trying to accomplish is, you know, ideally, I think that, you know, I mean, it's. It's less like a club and more like the impression I get of when all of you get together at Peters and you know, that you've got people that are serious, committed and.
And very interested in sort of common goals. I guess.
[00:34:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:09] Speaker B: I mean, what you are saying is very true. Like, I think part of what I'm talking about, of creating this professionals club and I don't know exactly what the proper thing to call it actually would be, but a lot of it would be in regards to aligning everybody's goals.
And so I know like with Bib back in the day, it was, hey, we are going to have a show on a yearly basis. And I and Boone would say, hey, I would like everybody to work towards creating show trees that you can show that are of a caliber and a level where they would be entered into Bay Island Bonsai. And it doesn't need to be that every single tree is super expensive or anything like that. In fact, he had some club members that couldn't afford really nice material. However, I remember in particular there was one point in time where a lady showed a plum tree and it was a very nice, nice plum tree, but it was air layered maybe six years ago or so.
And so it wasn't so much like about, hey, in this club you have to spend a certain amount of money.
It was just, hey, we are all working towards creating show trees. We want to get them to this certain level.
And he had everybody aligned. Everyone was swimming in the same direction.
Everyone had similar goals and objectives.
And I think creating the club really attracted a group of people that wanted to do bonsai on a higher level.
And maybe not just have a social gathering where we hang out and talk bonsai, which I think is great.
I just think that a new version of a club could be a really special thing that could really help push bonsai forward.
And I think that people are attracted, they would be attracted to that. Like if Julian had a club in Southern California, we'll call it SoCal Bonsai. I don't know if that's taken or whatever, but you have SoCal bonsai he gets all the hardcore enthusiasts together in Southern California and you guys start working towards creating show trees. And maybe that's to enter in the PBE or maybe it's to support the NACA show or maybe both or whatever you think. But essentially everyone would be learning a very similar curriculum. And then I think that everyone together would just work together, create synergies, strengthen each other.
One thing I like about the Jiu Jitsu thing is at least in our Jiu Jitsu, the Jiu Jitsu gym that I go to, the teachers often create new teachers and I think that that could be a very powerful thing.
So essentially Julian starts, you're the leader of the organization, but eventually, let's say Jeff gets to a certain level, maybe he starts teaching workshops as well. Or maybe some of your other students start taking say, beginner workshops and you come in maybe in the last 30 minutes of the workshop or something like that.
But ultimately I just think it would be a really powerful way to create a club and it could be a new style of club for the more hardcore enthusiasts.
[00:37:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think we can.
[00:37:56] Speaker C: Sorry, go ahead, Julia.
[00:37:57] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah. I, I mean the, the, the part of like cohesiveness and, and yeah, just trying to foster like a deeper understanding and it should just not be like a, a one man show. Right. Probably as a one man show, it not be sustainable. I mean the, the members in a sense should be able to support each other or as a educational resource or just purely by interest and exposure to like more trees and other perspectives.
Yeah, I mean the part of the students then becoming teachers. I guess I haven't thought that far in, in the sense that if, if people are, are interested in and engaged with that I think it'll happen organically.
But I wouldn't set the expectation on people that, that you have to become a teacher by, in participating in this organization.
[00:38:59] Speaker B: For sure.
[00:39:00] Speaker C: Yeah. Don't let that expectation for me, man.
[00:39:03] Speaker A: Yeah. At all.
[00:39:04] Speaker C: I'm going to be good for teaching people how to, how to root out pots and trees and, and how to fret over whether or not my dosatron is adequately putting micronutrients into the water, which actually is. I, I don't know if you wanna segue now, but sort of in terms of division of labor and responsibility, it's like I'm quite happy in the, the day to day maintenance and the day to day maintenance and welfare of, you know, doing everything I can to systemize and sort of be as exacting as I can with watering, with fertilization. With sort of what Peter was talking about in your most recent podcast about problem solving and diagnosis.
That's kind of where I see my responsibilities with, with our relationship.
[00:40:07] Speaker B: Very nice, very nice.
[00:40:09] Speaker C: And we can talk. We, I mean if you want to finish the, the conversation thread that we were going on before jumping into something else, I totally get it.
[00:40:22] Speaker B: No, I would say Julian, let's, let's keep chatting. I want to sell you on this multi club idea. Okay.
Another time.
[00:40:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah,
[00:40:33] Speaker B: yeah. Jeff, you know, I would love to hear what is the relationship like with you and Julian? Like how, how do you guys work together? Give me a broad overview there.
[00:40:45] Speaker C: The broad overview is that once a month, typically speaking, I very much look forward to spending the day with Julian. It usually happens in my backyard.
And typically what happens is it's a eight hour day.
I do a lot of, I do a lot of watching and I ask a lot of questions.
But based on what, seasonally is sort of taking priority. We just hammer out what needs to be done on the collection.
You know, I, I think that again, I, I, I get, I, I, I get a lot of instruction and sort of like, like the, you know, course correction and problem solving about the things that I am responsible for in the working relationship.
And I'm trying to think of like, I don't know, Julian, what else, what am I missing just in terms of what like your typical day looks like? I, I, I like a lot. Like it's also getting the point where a lot of trees will go back to your house for things that like I'm not necessarily, you know, like the tedium of like cleaning the femina and you know, doing things like that. But yeah, what am I forgetting? I, I like what's your perspective on
[00:42:12] Speaker A: it about right, there's like a, a seasonal array of work. And so we're looking basically at the time of year, what kind of work is possible that time of year. But we're also like assessing the individual tree condition. Like, like how strong is this tree? How healthy is this tree?
Even if it's possible to do the work, should, should we do the work? And so we're always like, like contrasting that with like horticultural decisions and like big picture stuff. And normally with you or, or anybody, I'll try to be very clear about that. I was like, oh, we should do this now because this, this tree has accrued some certain level of strength. We can expect this kind of response which can be favorable like for some golden bonsai. Or, or it could be like, well, let's defer this like another month because I would like this part of the tree to get stronger or to see a certain accuration of strength or foliage mass that will be conducive to our goals. So it's a lot of, I mean there's like a baseline work that we plan and discuss and then we kind of go back and forth of what is basically the ideal and what is the condition before us.
And then as needed, correcting course, making adjustments, trying new things.
Yeah, I mean, I was talking about this with Jeff, but I mean just in general, like bonsai is a pretty hard hobby in that there's a lot of variables that goes into growing a tree healthy. And it's not like I have it 100% figured out because there's like a lot of inherent variation just in our own weather patterns, microclimates and so there's small things I'm always trying to optimize or adjust for. And it just requires this, this constant.
I mean you're just like really paying attention. I, I don't want to say it's like tedious. Depends on your perspective. That's just a part of growing bonsai. It's like you pay attention to all these little things. But it's, it's for sure, it's very challenging. So even, even getting to the baseline of like navigating. Okay, we've got like a good care strategy down.
There's definitely some like trial and error and a lot of hurdles when we figure that out. But I think that's. Yeah, it's basically this more or less is our work structure. We follow a seasonal basis, but also consider the individual tree and then big picture stuff. Yeah.
[00:45:03] Speaker B: Is it always once a month? Like one day a month? That's kind of your operating rhythm with each other.
[00:45:10] Speaker A: No, like depends. So save Southern California generally. So like a lot of work is, is front loaded.
January, February is like repotting, grafting, wiring.
It's like a mild climate. You can do even a lot of like cut back stuff, say like on, on some deciduous stuff. People are like, oh, it's not as good to cut back in. In winter time, trees will bleed more SAP. That's true.
But I tend to find we can push it a bit in Southern California or just such a mild climate.
So yeah, January, February is a lot of work. And just depending on the year or the cycle of how many trees need to be repott.
I mean it's, it's, it could be like more than a day a month. Um, then for most people in say SoCal climate. I actually, I tell this to most people.
It's like you shouldn't be working on your trees a lot in March and April. It's kind of. Unless your tree's refined at, at a very high level, the bulk, majority of work tends to bias later because you need those months for the trees to build strength, flush out a little growth and accrue momentum. I mean, the exemption to that would be, say, if people have more refined Japanese maples or deciduous trees, then you have certain types of pinching and partial defoliation techniques basically to halt the momentum, to stop the elongation, the tip thickening, balance the tree. And, and that work tends to bias early. But that really just, just depends on the makeup of their collection. So. So normally March, April, I, I purposefully schedule less work days. And then like May, it's deciduous trees is super strong. There's like defoliation, leaf cutting techniques. Some of the really faster growing juniper varieties, they might be ready in May. It just kind of depends. If not by June, in the summertime, a lot of juniper work.
And of course, if there's a lot of pines, June, July, do a lot of pine work, needle plucking, which, which may necessitate more than a workday sometimes.
And then I, and then there's days I like to call like project days, which is, could be heavy wiring, restructuring stuff, styling in certain types of technical work where it just really needs a, a dedicated workday to do it well and at a high level.
And I always, I, I don't want to waste the client's time. So, so I'm always like working quickly, working efficiently. I'm never, I never just like, oh, well, if I, if I work this tree 50% slower, I can get paid more, maximize my working hours. I always think of what is time valuable and time efficient and time appropriate. Like ne. I mean, bonsai is kind of a translation of our time value.
So, So I kind of never want to waste time.
But say stuff like recently, right? There's like the, the Femina worked on.
Um, there's some trees I'm like, okay, it's like to do this well, I need to do it to a certain level. It necessitates a minimum of amount of work and technicality. And then certain projects like that, I'm like, let's set a dedicated day. Or I tell the client, have it set up at my place. Cause I have a full working space, good lighting, adjustable work height. So it's just, it helps a lot when the work needs to be precise and Stuff like that will, will take a lot of time. Like, like sometimes if the tree is not like quite at that late stage level and say, I know I can do the work to say a 70% job, but I can do it twice as fast compared to a hundred percent job and I know it will not lose time in, in the trajectory of the development.
Then usually I'll proposition that to the client. Oh, let's just get these big picture things done.
These other things, it's no problem to work later and this ends up being more time efficient.
So I, I try to, especially when there's a lot of things to be done, I, I try to condense work that way.
But then otherwise we have like these project days where I'm like, okay, this tree needs a work day to, to do it right, to do it a hundred percent.
And so it'll just fluctuate, just depends on the state of the projects, if new trees are coming in and of course how much they're growing.
So, so in terms of the, the work demand, there's a little bit of ebb and flow each year.
[00:50:19] Speaker C: There's another aspect, there's another aspect to the workflow that isn't necessarily typical workday, but you know, I mean it's, it, there's a constant dialogue that's going on even on non work days. I think that sometimes it's, you know, just as simple as annoying questions of hey, what do you think about this tree? Hey, what do you think about that tree?
When I'm sort of either looking on Facebook or you know, sort of somebody hits me up and says they've got something for sale or I hear of, you know, One of the OGs is liquidating their collection and that kind of thing. And I start sending Julian pictures and a lot of times he ends up telling me what I already know.
Um, but then there are also, you know, the, again the, the minutiae. And as I get better and more refined in my ability to, to maintain the trees, I find myself asking a lot of questions, you know, about, you know, frequency of certain things, the effectiveness in his experience of certain types of fertilizer, like some of this. I mean, I'm having the damnedest time getting certain things to fruit which may be just outside of, you know, the hardiness zone. Like for instance, Japanese silver bear or Japanese beauty berries. Right now I'm on a mission to get them to fruit because I've got some stuff that I would really love to show.
And, and I find that I am asking, you know, I'm Asking a lot of questions recently about, like, what type, you know, optimizing fertilization and, you know, like, when, you know, I mean, like, we've been pulling micronutrients on a lot of junipers right now because we're trying to get a positive effect on some of, you know, like, eliminating juvenile growth and getting mature growth to pop faster. Um, so.
So yeah, I think that what I find is that, you know, that is, you know, that that sort of. That makes it. I mean, it's the, you know, the working relationship tends to be, you know, it's.
I mean, I. Again, not to get super deep or like, woo about it, but it's. It's.
It's kind of like co parenting things. And even though one.
Even though one party maybe has custody a little bit more frequently than the other, we're both working towards a common goal in terms of what it is that we want to see these trees become.
[00:53:14] Speaker B: That's such a funny way to look at it, but it totally makes sense in my mind. The co parenting thing.
[00:53:19] Speaker A: I like that.
[00:53:22] Speaker B: Yeah, Very nice.
[00:53:23] Speaker C: And on a deeper level, I mean, it's just, I think that, you know, it's like you get into something and you don't really know, like, what is attracting you to it initially. And I remember feeling very early on like that, you know, I. I've been looking for something like this and then almost feeling like, you know, it's like you, you know, you see the Karate Kid when you're, you know, 12 or whatever it is, or, you know, you see a bonsai somewhere, and I think there's so many people that go, oh, I want to do that, but there's a big difference between that and then feeling it very deeply of like, this is feeding something in me. And I maybe don't quite know what it is, but I'm gonna, you know, take that trip, walk that road and see where it leads me. And, you know, and. And. And the answer that I give you today might be entirely different than the answer that I would.
That I would give, you know, a decade from now about what it is that I get out of this and what it is that I get out of the working relationship.
Yeah, you know,
[00:54:31] Speaker B: very, very interesting. It's been fun to learn how you guys work together, and I've really enjoyed hearing about this.
I was wondering, what does it look like in terms of tree selection? And I guess for Jeff, like, maybe just talking about your collection a little bit more, what types of trees are you looking for? And when do you potentially get Rid of trees. And how do you decide to get rid of trees?
[00:55:04] Speaker C: It's a good question. Um, I think what I'm looking for at this point are.
I'm, I'm trying, I'm breaking this down in terms of the different elements of what you asked.
One is, what am I looking for in my collection?
1. Another question is when do I get rid of things? Um, and what was the other, what was the other element of it?
Sort of. I, I guess that's, it's just, it's a two part question.
[00:55:34] Speaker B: I'm sorry, I asked you like ten questions. I apologize. I should have just started slower. But that's what I'm getting at is just like, what are your overall goals with where you see your collection moving forward?
[00:55:48] Speaker C: Um, I, you know, it's like, it's like what I hear, you know, some other guests talk about is ideally I, you know, would have less trees of higher quality as I get more confident in my ability to maintain things long term.
What I've noticed is that, you know, like any fool with a wallet can buy really good quality trees, but maintaining them and sort of watching them improve is sometimes, you know, it, it's, it's somewhat, it's. I'm still learning those lessons in a very, you know, they can be very humbling at times and there's a lot of humility there. I definitely have trees that are probably worth less now than when I acquired them, which is totally cool. I think that's part of the, you know, growth curve. But I look, you know, I mean, in terms of what I'm looking for, I'm looking for things that can show. I'm looking for things that ultimately we can develop over time. So there's almost two different categories. I would say that, you know, I mean, there's a small handful of trees that I think that we could, that we could show now and then I want to say there's, you know, I mean, maybe like 30% of my collection are things that are.
Sorry, hang on a minute.
[00:57:18] Speaker B: No worries.
[00:57:19] Speaker C: Hey, Julian.
[00:57:21] Speaker B: Also, you know, your audio is kind of going in and out a little bit. It's totally fine. It's going to be totally fine. But I was thinking maybe if you turn your camera off, it might just help the connection.
[00:57:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, we'll try that.
[00:57:36] Speaker B: So. Better?
[00:57:38] Speaker C: Yes.
So, yeah, I think that, you know, maybe 30% of my collection are things that I would say are like, I don't know, you know, Julian. Oh, you know, I'll always ask, you know, hey, what's the event horizon on this tree. But, you know, it's like anywhere from three to five years, or what I would predict would be five to 10 years, depending on how well it does and, you know, sort of the level of refinement that we're comfortable with, you know, taking it to show.
But I, you know, I. I tend to. There are definitely things that I bought at, you know, sort of when I knew less than I know now that are sitting, you know, that it's like we. I put blue tape on them because I'm like, okay, this tree is probably as refined or this tree is.
There's only so much refinement that this tree is going to develop.
And for, you know, it's. I think that this is a tree that will give somebody else more joy in a collection than it will give me because of what it is now, because of the intrinsic qualities of things like, you know, trunk movement, deadwood, ability to develop in. In, you know, the. The climate that my garden is in.
And. And then there are other things that, you know, that. That I would, you know, that I'm just. I go out there every morning and I look at them and I get really excited about what they might look like three to five years from now.
And, you know, in terms of. And I think then the other question that you asked was like, how do I go about selecting things when I see opportunities? Part of it's on what I can afford.
And, you know, also it's like, what is the opportunity? And, you know, how rare is it that I'm going to get that? Like, you know, I mean, there's a Yamadori oak tree that came from the Clark collection or that Rocky Mountain juniper that. That we've mentioned. Those were things that. With the Rocky. I think that, you know, Julian just said, I think that this would be a good tree, and I think it's got a really high level of development potential. And I didn't see it initially.
You know, I. I do now, but I said, great, let's, you know, let's go for it.
And I trusted him in that respect. I saw it a little bit more with that oak that we picked up.
And.
And, you know, then there are things that, you know, I just got lucky with. Like, the Femina was a tree that came. Was.
It was started probably somewhere in the late 60s to early 70s by, you know, some very early bonsai practitioners in the Southern California community. That it was a husband and wife.
[01:00:38] Speaker A: Yeah, the Hatanakas.
[01:00:40] Speaker C: The Hatanakas, yeah. And. And I remember seeing it in. It was the first thing that my eye trained on in the.
The individual whose collection it came from.
And it was. It was really shaggy and it had sort of. It hadn't been refined for a very long time. But I just remember looking at it and thinking sort of, oh, wow, that's really incredible. And it's.
And. And it's. I. I remember feeling like, a sense of responsibility of like, oh, this is.
You know, this is a. This is. This is a piece of history. And it's probably one of the only trees in my collection that I feel that way about.
But feeling a sense of responsibility, gravity, and a sense of continuity, I guess, of saying this could be improved and it could be a really interesting sort of. I don't want to sound too pompous here, but like a historical sort of reference point to what the history of Banzai in Southern California has been.
And.
And yeah, I mean, other than that, you know, I mean, I. There are definitely times where I'm sort of jonesing for, like, something new or something that, you know, I can stare at with a new set of eyes. And I try really hard to restrain myself and not buy shit.
But, you know, I. I think that, you know, it's a. It really is a lot of sort of also me going back to Julian and getting a sense of what he's going to, A, have time for and B, be enthusiastic about working on. Because, you know, my goal is not to just have a bunch of trees that I think are interesting. You know, my goal is to have stuff that we both want to work on that we both get excited about and that we both see as potentially valuable contributions to, you know, what always has the potential to be a better bonsai community.
You know, especially now that the Pacific Bonsai Exposition is gathering momentum and really seems to bring a lot of quality material to the West Coast.
[01:03:15] Speaker B: Awesome. Are you going to submit for this year's show? The 2027 February show?
[01:03:21] Speaker C: Yeah, we were talking about that.
I think so, but I'm not sure what yet.
That sort of remains to be seen.
It kind of depends on whether or not certain trees. We were talking about a shohin display that had some of the same things that I think you saw at last year's Naka
[01:03:43] Speaker B: Silverberry.
[01:03:44] Speaker C: The. The Silver. The smaller Silverberry, the.
The jbp, which isn't probably in.
In shape to be shown right now because of old growth and new growth.
But yeah, the Silverberry, There was a Bert Daveyi in there, I think.
What else was in that display there was that the.
The Juniper that's definitely not in shape to show right now and a handful of other things. But you know, I mean it's like again as far as shohin trees go, I find that I'm always kind of looking at what's there. There are some things that I look at and I'm like that thing is really great. And then there are other things where I go that's a suitable, you know, that that's something that's suitable to take up space. And obviously I'm hoping that someday I look at everything and I'm like I, the level of, you know, quality here is so much better than it was five years ago or 10 years ago.
But in the meantime, again it's about finding the best stuff that I can and, and, and hopefully it all meshes together for that kind of thing. Julian, what do you, what did we talk about in terms of submitting for pbe? Do you remember?
[01:05:01] Speaker A: It's just potentially could make some shohin or smaller.
Not necessarily even like a three point displays, but there's shohin display arrangements that's not necessarily just a box stand in the side tree. And yeah, a lot of it just comes down to is like what is the condition of the trees? Is it optimal for the timing of the exhibit?
And then based off the array of what's possible then we can vet like display combinations. So, so that like I don't even know yet. It's just we have to see.
[01:05:43] Speaker B: I really liked your silverberry. It was super nice at the Naka Memorial show and our killer pot, I think you had it in like a Shiro Cochin pot. Like a antique white.
Yeah, very nice.
[01:05:57] Speaker C: Nah, thanks. I, I, I remember, I remember you posted it on the gram and I was just like yeah, yeah, I've, I've, I've, I, I've made it. My trees must be good. Jeremiah Lee liked them.
But, but yeah, I, I, I that, that tree pot combination. And that also is, I think that that's one of the areas that I really enjoy sort of exercising my creative input or contribution to the process which is, you know, I mean again sort of, you know, I bother Matt Mattawiga, I hope I'm pronouncing his last name right constantly about pots and hey, how do I learn about this pot or this potter? And you know, where am I, you know, where can I get this tree or this pot and can you track this down in Japan for me and all this stuff? But marrying pots and trees together is just been, it's, it's one of my Favorite things to do because it's as opposed to the slow and methodical and gradual progress that you watch in, in seeing your, your children grow. It's, it's like putting a new pair of shoes on them where the result is instantaneous and you get to see the, the, you know, the, the, the, I guess you call it vertical integration of, of you know, two different beautiful things that work together to create sort of this more impressive effect which is I think one of the other elements about showing trees and, and sort of, you know, the, you know, multiple shohin displays and you know, getting into.
I think I did the same thing that you did the first time I went to Japan is that I went to, I went to Kobayashi's nursery and spent a very irresponsible and embarrassing amount of money on Suiseki because I knew that I could get them home.
[01:08:04] Speaker B: Love it. That's great.
[01:08:07] Speaker C: Same as you. I mean I was just like, you know, oh, I think this is a new sort of facet of the hobby that I have to take up and you know, because I'm going to need to display these things and I imagine scrolls are probably next.
[01:08:24] Speaker B: Absolutely. Very nice.
Well, I kind of want to put you two on the spot. I just thought of something interesting and funny and I know Peter and I talk a lot about in my collection how we rank all of our trees.
I guess I was curious what you think of your top three trees are. And then I'm really curious if Julian has the same thoughts and opinion.
Is that okay if we do that?
[01:08:57] Speaker C: Oh yeah, fuck it. It's fine with me.
Yeah, it's fine.
I, I, I, I I And Julian hates answering these questions, but every now and then I ask him to see whether or not the answers have changed. And I think that it's sort of like, you know, your top three trees aren't necessarily, I mean it's like there's, you know, I remember the first time I ever asked the answer was, well, I think this is probably the most thoughtful, you know, the mo. The best thought out tree even though it wasn't maybe to a level of development. But if I had to pick them right now, I would probably say that the Femina, the RMJ and maybe the Shohin pine.
And that doesn't include your, your Sierra, which I, you know, have in an entirely different category.
You know, because I look at that and I'm just sort of like it's already been shown. It's going to be a few years before we show it again.
You know, the, the main Job right now is just to keep it as to, you know, to keep it as refined as we possibly can. I burned it right after you sent it to me because I, you know, we had a heat snap and I didn't have it under shade cloth and it's, it's recovered nicely. But yeah, I would say that, you know, the, the, the three that, yeah, those are probably the three. Julian, what do you think?
[01:10:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's. Yeah, I'm trying to think about it a bit. You know, the reason, while I'll say why these questions are hard to answer on, on a few levels, it's like one is you can gauge like the, the total say, quality as it is now, and then also you can gauge the potential of what it becomes in the future. And so it's kind of like the ranking can change on many criteria.
There's actually a third aspect because like Jeff and some of my other clients ask me this a lot and I always give these very like ambiguous answers. But it's not like, because I'm trying to like avoid answering. But there, there's kind of like a aspect you're not allowed to avoid it. You gotta, you gotta answer.
You understand why after I explain, like, hold on, I just need to get my, my train of thought together.
Like, like. Okay, so this relates to the topic of this podcast, like client professional relationships and, and how you can fulfill bonsai at the highest level.
Like it's. Bonsai is kind of unique in a sense that like the fulfillment of the tree is very much like the, the co parenting example. It's not just like my end input from the professional because unless I have that tree like all the time and I am dictating all facets of care and work, which is not the case, it's just be impossible for and irresponsible for me to say I can guarantee or fulfill a certain kind of result. And so I just know from experience that the best trees made in say like this client professional relationship are fulfilled in a relationship where both parties understand what makes a tree good. What are we working towards? Because then now all your, your subtle small decisions on like how you care for the tree things you pay attention to, condition of branching, you've assigned value to that because you understand deeper. And because bonsai work is fulfilled over a lot of time in many years, the cumulative sum of all those small decisions make a huge effect. And I just know from experience, experience it just means you have a better end result tree. So for say for like Jeff and some of my clients There are like trees which, let's say it's not like the best level, but it's not bad either.
And it's very easy just to ride off these trees or just to quickly replace them.
But in a sense I, I care about the client's perspective and understanding in that.
There, there's another aspect of like, well, how good can the tree become?
What do you put in the tree? And, and at a very, very high level, like, say like very high level bonsai. Of. Of course, there's like intrinsic qualities of things we can change, which is like the dead wood, the trunk, et cetera.
But there, there's also a cultivated aspect of the tree, right, that is like via technique and age. It's stuff like we talk about like the cryptomeria at the last expo and then, right. The very old femina we're working on like on the surface level, the, the, the trunk or in terms of the wow factor is not necessarily a lot, but it has that subtle cultivation quality that, that maturity which makes the tree good. And when people see that in person, they, they appreciate it and they understand it's, it's good and it's. So, yeah, this is a weird thing to answer, but it's, it's like a lot of times I think about, it's like, what does my client want to hear and what do they, they need to hear?
And I, I sometimes give very.
The roundabout answers because it's if, if I satisfy like a kind of answer too easily. It's like you take things for granted and the client immediately projects their most immediate feeling for the answer, which is, yeah, this is like getting real like into the subtleties.
But I, I find it just makes, makes both their attitude towards bonsai and the quality of trees worse. And so, so yeah, I mean, yeah, that's. This is like a really tricky thing to explain, but, but it has to do with like your perception of bonsai and say building a, a understanding with the client. So, so that for the remaining trees they can be fulfilled at a high level. But, but I mean in terms of say like, let's just say potential included of like raw quality. I, I mean, yeah, definitely the femina is probably the best stages because it's like so old and it's. I mean, we've been revamping that tree the last.
Oh yeah, I don't know, like three years, four years, something like that. And yeah, and so, yeah, so we've had to kind of rebuild all the small branches, but it just has like a really good baseline and still the original primary secondary branches from like 50 years ago. And that's just like, you can't. I mean, you can't fake that. It's just. It's just a time thing. And so for me, I'm like, okay, that's like, has a lot of value and. And people, they. I feel they like, subconsciously understand when they see it in person. They don't know why, but, like, oh, it feels impressive because it just has that, like, cohesiveness that is. That is only gained via age.
Like, say we talked about the Rocky Mountain juniper. That's like a tree's like, for. The size is very powerful. And when we repotted it, we found like, oh, man, there's like five inches more of like, twisted trunk under the soil. So it's like, kind of got like a bonus. And so it's just very different.
The size already has some graphs. We redid a bunch of other graphs. And so all. Basically all the graphs are good to go.
I mean, tree, like, that is super raw as bonsai, but just has good potential for the future.
[01:17:28] Speaker C: And then.
[01:17:29] Speaker B: Is that a randy night Rocky Mountain juniper?
[01:17:32] Speaker A: You know, I don't know. It's the.
Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's the one we got. Well, we bought it at. At Peter's place, but Peter had brought it back from. From Utah.
Connor Jensen, he's the. He was the last owner of the tree.
I honestly have, like, no idea. Like, presumably it's. It's a randy. It's a randy tree.
But yeah, it's ended up. It'll be, I think, a cool project.
And then the third one. Yeah, that's like. That's like, tough. I'm like, not. I'm not sure because things is not like, directly comparable. Like, there's like, could be a lot of contenders.
[01:18:13] Speaker C: Yeah, like that. I think that the Shohin pine that I referenced and that I think you saw last year at Naka, you know, that's a tree that's, you know, it's. That's. That's a refinement game only. And that's sort of trying to maintain density of, you know, of branching and what is it that you always say, sort of pushing the limits of horticulture to the best of our ability.
Yeah, but I, you know, and like, you know, the. The root over rock, Pastrada, which was really old and, you know, which was also like an OG tree that never got developed. Right. That's a cool project. I think the Yamadori oak is a cool project. I think that the, like, the, like that thing that we're trying to do that. The Pechanga Angel Oak project is cool, you know, maybe something good happens. The Twisted Palmy. I mean, there's a bunch of them. But I wanted to touch on something, you know, the, the. The delicacy and the complexity of. Of answering that question when clients ask. Because what I found is that, you know, it started out as sort of like an ego stroke and being like, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, I got good trees in my backyard and what it's. And, And, And I could tell that it was not an easy question for Julian to answer and that it would be irresponsible to just sort of pump the client up with, you know, like, saying that a tree was good because it's, it's misinformation in a lot of respects. And now what I do is I just sort of tend to look at it as going, okay, what can I see from the standpoint of. I mean, first off, I try not to ask the question as frequently as I used to, you know, because I, I do think that it's a good lesson in sort of checking your ego at the door, you know, because, you know, again, I think that if, you know, if you're. If you're trying to cultivate the best trees you possibly can, that's great. But if, you know, if you're doing it for yourself or for, you know, just to, you know, to be somebody in the community, I think that you're kind of putting the cart before the horse.
But, you know, I, I tend to ask the question and look at it more in terms of how do I see.
How do I see the potential? Like, what's the potential of this tree and how can I measure that in the amount of time that we've had it?
And that also sort of then loops back to what my responsibility is as the caretaker and the, you know, the patron practitioner, whatever you want to call it in terms of am I doing, you know, where is there room for improvement in terms of the things that I'm doing? I mean, it's like, you know, I mean, we bounce. I mean, it's like in it, you know, I mean, initially it was, you know, improving the quality of water, which meant setting up an RO system or setting up, you know, emergency irrigation that was coming out of tap water, but, you know, which had lines running all over the yard, you know, which then became sort of better refinement with fertilizer and some of the stuff that we already talked about. But, you know, it's seeing the evidence of, you know, I mean, like, for instance, with, you know, the improvement in the quality of some of the larger pines and how they are ramifying and, you know, how those buds are growing more compact based on when we fertilize and, you know, pulling it and putting it back on.
Those are the things that help inform me in terms of what, you know, not only I think the best trees in the collection are, but what I think Julian probably thinks they are as well.
[01:22:00] Speaker B: This has been a really interesting conversation, and it's been fun to hear responses from both of you.
I guess a couple points that I wanted to chat about are, one, I do think anytime you're evaluating your collection and ranking your trees or determining which are your top three or whatever, it is super important, like Julian mentioned earlier, to, like, define the parameters and be super specific.
[01:22:30] Speaker C: Yep.
[01:22:30] Speaker B: And lately, because how do you, how do you compare, you know, something in development to something that's super refined?
Lately, what I've been thinking about the way that I have been ranking my collection in my mind is I've been going, okay, if things go to plan, my time horizon is 15 years.
So if I look at all these trees here in 15 years from today, if there was a bonsai show and things went to plan, which would be the best trees? Like, how do I rank them there?
And so that's how I've been defining for my collection. Just because I'm curious, because I want to rank my own trees, I would just also say, like, for Julian, and as someone who has asked my, the bonsai professional I work with, Peter T.
Like, I really want to know what's truly on his mind.
And I would think, and I don't know, Jeff, your opinion here, but, like, I don't want you to sugarcoat anything. As a bonsai professional, like, I want you to tell me a hundred percent what you really think.
And like, I think that if your client can't take it, then maybe that's a sign of, like, you shouldn't be working with that person anyways.
But, like, a hundred percent transparent, straightforward answer is like, really what I would really like to take, what I would like to receive from a bonsai professional, and I don't want them to, like, tell me what I want to hear or anything like that. So it was interesting to hear you say that.
[01:24:17] Speaker C: No, I agree. A hundred, Nice.
[01:24:19] Speaker B: Okay. And we're live.
[01:24:21] Speaker C: I agree with your point of, you know, I, I, I want the truth and I want it blunt and offers him the opportunity to, to honestly say, hey, you Know, we, we should be focusing our attention on certain things more than others.
And I've asked him that in terms of my own abilities and learning curve as well. And I've gotten some very valuable answers in that. Like, I think that, you know, I mean, what I sort of figured out myself about, you know, that like, I just. There are certain people, I think, that get into bonsai and they naturally sort of, they naturally understand the, the fundamentals of how to style a tree. That wasn't me. And I don't know if it ever will be. I think that I will probably have a functional ability and I'm totally okay with that, of doing things like, you know, cutting things back to silhouette or, you know, sort of looking at sort of a general form of, you know, what I want a tree to look like. And hopefully Julian agrees.
But, you know, I, I think that like, I, I remember asking the question, Julian, hopefully, you know, you remember this too. And I was like, I, I think it, I said something like, you know, am I learning along sort of an appropriate curve in terms of, you know, how this relationship, you know, continues to develop and improve?
And, you know, the answer I got back, I think was, you know, I mean, it was informative and it was instructive because it was along the, it kind of had to do with some of what Avram, I think, was talking about, about the ways that we learn and the ways that different people learn.
And, you know, what I realized is that I learn pretty slowly with this and I'm often very reluctant to make decisions about, you know, what to cut back or how to maybe like, prune things.
You know, I mean, certainly with like some of the Trident maples, you know, they grow so aggressively that, you know, I'm, I'm still gaining a comfortability with cutting them back in between sessions and in between when we focus, work on that. But, you know, it's.
I think, I think a character on Game of Thrones once said it, I learn slowly, but I do learn. Um, and you know, some people, yeah, some people take. Come to it naturally, some people don't.
And I think that that's part of the decision to form a long term relationship with a Banzai professional.
But I think the more candid the answers to those questions are, the better it is ultimately for the relationship, you know, or the better it is also to set boundaries in terms of, you know, what, what, what defines this relationship and something that, you know, you were saying earlier, Julian, about like, what does this client want? And, and how can I, how can I Service that and.
Yeah. And I want to know, by the way, what are your three. The three best trees in your collection? Jeremiah.
[01:27:42] Speaker B: You know, so I could definitely tell you my top two.
So I have a Sierra juniper that I'm entering for the PBE this year.
And then I have my, my ponderosa pine that I got from Steve from backcountry bonsai.
That is number two. And then number three, I think it's. It's close between a few and I'm not quite sure.
[01:28:11] Speaker A: So.
[01:28:13] Speaker B: That's a good question. I would love your opinion, Julian's opinion and Peter's opinion on that.
[01:28:19] Speaker C: Of the stuff I know about. I thought you were gonna say the redwood, but, you know, maybe that's old news at this point.
[01:28:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I, I don't know.
I like the redwood. I have another nice Sierra jun. I have a couple nice Sierra junipers that I really like, but they're. They're not as refined as the redwood.
I have a double trunk Chinese quint that I really like.
So I have a few that are in the runnings for number three. So my num 1 and 2, which I don't know which, it's hard to say which one's one and two, they've bounced around in my mind. But number three is a point of contention that there's a few that are in the mix for number three.
[01:29:07] Speaker C: So it made me, when you asked the question, it made me realize that number three is the hard one to peg. Cause just wanted to briefly say I. When you were talking to Peter last time, you were talking about how you were not satisfied with the way that your quint was growing. This season. I had the exact same experience with the quints that I have.
And I like it. I mean, I think that it's a tree that has good potential, but it's just.
Yeah, I may need to send that one up to Peter and if it doesn't start shaping up and acting right,
[01:29:42] Speaker B: interesting.
I'm curious, Ju, like Julian, do Chinese quints do pretty well in SoCal? For the most part, do they grow super vigorously?
[01:29:53] Speaker A: You know, it's hard. I think it's kind of on the fringe because really most of these species we use in bonsai are, are temp temperate growing species. And so their growth habits and patterns is. Is regulated by seasonality, especially the, the entering and exiting dormancy.
And just the reality of Southern California just, we have very mild climate, particularly the last two winters been very, very mild. Like, like not cold at all in the winter.
And just like my observations is, yeah, that kind of weather is terrible for a temperate growing species because the bud, the proliferation or the opening of buds in the spring is very non uniform. And for a tree that you're trying to push into refinement so you're getting more and more branches, these kind of biological systems matter a lot to the overall hardiness of the tree.
So I, I definitely say yeah, the quince is not growing optimally this year. But I mean I, I do know of and have worked on Chinese quince that's been here in Southern California for decades. So I know in, in the greater scheme of time they survive.
The other thing you end up vetting and find out which is why also it's like good over time you start focusing on hardy species is that as you're, as you push trees towards refinement, say either shohin trees, large trees, which is getting small branches, you start hitting like physical limitations of the tree where it's upper degree of refinement really corresponds to how consistently and how strong that tree grows. I mean when you have say like 10 branches and they're all like pretty thick, are you growing runners? I mean it will resist a lot. But if you bring a tree to like proper refinement and your branch number is like many orders higher, like hundreds to thousands of branches, I mean you will observe problems which is like fluctuations of the season and stuff and inconsistency. It'll, it'll show up in the tree and so stuff like that, I'm kind of like, like I, I know from the past experience and other people, I'm like it should grow, but exactly hardy. It will grow. And to what degree of refinement we can obtain like that I don't even know yet. I have to kind of like observe and see.
[01:32:34] Speaker C: It may take a minute for him to come.
[01:32:36] Speaker A: Sorry, can you guys still hear me? It says there's, I have a connection issue.
[01:32:40] Speaker C: But no, we talk about that a lot because as, as I had started to get trees that have been, you know, that are more refined and that have more branching, I really start to see how like, you know, the way that a tree diverts resources in, you know, when it gets stressed.
[01:32:58] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I, I dropped out.
Did, did all the audio go through or did it get cut off?
[01:33:05] Speaker B: Unfortunately it did get cut off this time.
[01:33:08] Speaker A: Do you know where I, I left off?
[01:33:12] Speaker C: Talk about the upper limits of, of branching and you know, when you have 10 branches it's. Does this trigger?
[01:33:21] Speaker A: Okay, yeah. So as, as you're, you're pushing trees towards refinement and you reach a plateau basically of how many branches or, or how small your branches get. That's like when you can observe a lot of problems which is basically inconsistency in the seasonality or inconsistency in your care.
Say let's just pretend your, your variation of care is a degree of plus or minus 10% was just an arbitrary factor. It is like the total energy.
I mean if your tree has like a thousand branches, I mean that plus or minus 10% is a hundred branches. And so, so that's a non insignificant number that can have distress or die. But say when your tree has only like 10 branches or whatever, the individual strength is high enough that it has some resilience, some like buffering against stress. Like one observation I noticed this year in trees in the landscape, my own deciduous bonsai, because we had such a warm winter, I, I mean I think it hardly went under 50 degrees. It's like maybe just random day or here it just, it was warm through the whole winter. Plus we're getting tropical storm systems like warm rain.
Also that I noticed all my deciduous trees this year, the side that was in the shade leafed out first in the side that was in the sun leaf. The buds opened very spottedly and what was kind of. And I've noticed that in many trees and in some of my workshops and landscape maples. I think I was asking, even Matthew Gelassio, right, is working with Avram, they're pruning landscape trees and he was like, yeah, landscape trees a little funky this year.
And, and, and so normally for temperate deciduous tree, it's, it's like it accrues this ratio, right of these, you can call these cold units to hot units, right, this chill period that, and I can't remember what it was, but when the condition is met, I think it either it, it generates I think some kind of hormone in the bud or it's dispelling some, the chemical or hormone over dormancy. I, I just can't remember which it was.
Um, and, and basically when that condition is fulfilled, right, the leaves, they, they open up and then there's like a secondary mechanism. Let's say if not by temperature, then another indirect mechanism is like the photoperiod, the relative change of like of the sunlight to the dark, right? And then that kind of explains why like the, the shaded side over the dormancy leaf first and more evenly versus the, the side of the buds in the sun didn't grow very consistent. And I think all that means for like the quince and These other temperate species in SoCal when we have this fringe weather or conditions like and the tree is getting a lot of, of branches, I'm, I mean it's, it definitely causes stress to the tree. There's a problem when your tree does not leaf out evenly in the springtime. It's, it's going to want to divert its energy and resources to the shoots which have come out first and the ones which are lagging is at risk of getting weaker or dying.
I mean the resolution for that is that you just try to pump the tree and then quickly cut the strong parts and see if it evens out. But you know, early in the springtime, the tree does not have a lot of momentum or recuperated energy yet. That's not, not guaranteed. And so that's like another tricky part. Yeah, we have to navigate both against the natural microclimate climate variation and then the hardiness of the space species. And so, so stuff like that we just have to continue to observe very carefully and we'll, we'll have our answers over time. I'm not positive yet.
[01:37:42] Speaker C: And like one of the things that was I, you know, I, I say this euphemistically but informative and a learning experience this year was we had that heat snap in March I think it was where we saw triple digit temperatures where we live and burned a lot of the, you know, very young, very fragile growth on that quince specifically and it up And I think, you know, I wonder how much of that also sort of had the, the, the organism playing catch up when things went back to more traditional seasonal cycle.
[01:38:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean it's definitely as for sure the, the burn part stress out the tree.
[01:38:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Julian, that breakdown that you just gave us was hardcore and it makes me think that bonsai is not so easy at least to do on a high level. And I think you just gave several examples of why it can be very challenging. And I think also long story short, grow things that grow well in your climates. But I'm guilty like I want the Chinese quince. I love Chinese quince.
However, I also like more recently I, I, I've started to really try and focus on species that grow really well in my area. For example, like I've been really into cork bark elm recently, which is something that I haven't necessarily been previously. But I think cork park elm like do phenomenal here. I'm sure they would do really well in SoCal and they just, they get a lot of great age and I feel like I'm going to be Able to ramify the hell out of them, which is super exciting and fun and.
[01:39:36] Speaker C: Yeah. So it's taken me a while to figure out where to put the elms that I have in my yard so that they grow well, but I'm starting to get the hang of it. And one more point to what you were saying about Julian's hardcore breakdown.
I, I hate to admit it, but a lot of times he'll start talking and the shit'll just go straight over my head because I'm like, this is why you're the professional and I'm the dipshit in this back.
[01:40:01] Speaker B: Well, Julian is extremely intelligent and I, I like the way his mind works. Like, I, I am the same way sometimes. Although, like, for example, Julian, when you were talking about like the 10% swing and the. If a tree has a thousand branches, that means you lose a hundred branches. I mean, that, like, is very logical and I like, I really appreciated you explaining that. That was really good point and very important.
[01:40:30] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think that, you know, it's sort of an overall arching thing as well that plays back into the, like, how we select who we work with.
Very early on I got the impression that I was dealing with somebody that was, was thoughtful, was experienced, had a natural understanding of, you know, the eleventy billion facets of, of this, this pursuit that we're all chasing.
And most importantly, that, you know, who was authentic and had integrity to the process of what we're doing and, and was striving for excellence. I think that those things are very rare. And I mean, certainly I think that, you know, they're rare in my profession and in the things that I pursue.
And so, you know, one of the things that I've always noticed is that very successful people, they, they surround themselves with very, with, you know, with experts at their individual pursuit. And then they give them the autonomy and, you know, they del. They give them the autonomy to do their thing and they support them as they best can. And that is, you know, I'm, I'm thinking about it now and I think that's a very good sort of general description of how I approach our working relationship.
[01:42:18] Speaker B: Fantastic.
Love to hear it.
[01:42:22] Speaker C: You know, that was a compliment. Julian, by the way, came across that way.
[01:42:33] Speaker B: So in, in Southern California, bonsai. Jeff and Julian, I was curious for you guys. Do you think that changing up your water quality has really been impactful on your horticultural practices with bonsai?
[01:42:48] Speaker C: Yes.
[01:42:49] Speaker B: Has that made a big difference?
[01:42:50] Speaker C: Huge.
[01:42:52] Speaker A: Yeah. It's kind of, it's, it's, it's Unfortunate in a way, but I mean if you want trees pushed to a fairly high level, you, you kind of need like the good water. I mean there are some counties in, in LA and Southern California which has better water than others. And, and you can operate within a range of just hardy species to, to still produce say, refined results on, on just the tap water.
But I would say on, on average just having good water quality just makes everything easier. I, I mean it's not the end all be all.
Like you still need to pay very good attention to your trees and, and, and be cognizant to make like small adjustments as, as needed.
So I mean if, if your, your fundamental care or the big picture stuff is not good water is, is not going to fix that. But assuming the other stuff is, is done well, then then having clean water is, is a huge perk. Like.
Yeah, I mean like some examples of this. It's like, like in like say Southern California, everybody says oh, you can't grow Japanese maples. And they're like Japanese maples turn crispy by June, July. And I, I found, you know, from observation, a lot of times it's not actually the tree getting burned. It's, it's a direct correlation of, of the water tds being too high. So I, I mean if you think of this, this tree as like this, this closed system, it's like uptaking water and nutrients, different solutes, fertilizers, metals, salt in the water gets drawn up the tree. I mean the water transpires, right? It evaporates out of the leaf, the stomata. But all the stuff in the water is left in the plant. I, I mean, of course some of it will be utilized, but there's not like a, a system to expel waste, right? There's no like kidney of the plant kind kind of. I mean, maybe somebody could correct me if I'm wrong, but as, as far as I'm aware of, there's not, there's not like a biological system like that. And so for like Japanese maples, this is very well documented over the course of the season, right? This, there's this accuration in the leaf margins of all the random salts, calciums, metals, whatever, and it just builds at a concentration. At some point it gets too high, right? It causes this local phytotoxicity. It's all the, the leave margins on the edge, they curl up, it looks burnt. And people are like, because it happens coinciding with the hot weather, they're like, oh, I, my, my tree is in too much sun it got burned or it got too windy, it got burned a lot of times. It's a combination of all those issues, but it's also directly stemming from the water.
But it also means that for other species, say with less like with like conifers or things that have more resilient waxy leaves, I, I mean these thicker foliage, it's kind of upper tolerance of the accuration of all these salts is much higher, but the stress is still experienced the same. And especially when you are producing a lot of branches or small branches, like if refinement you see a lot of problems emerge because the, the individual little branch. Right. Becomes very sensitive. Right. It's. It's vulnerable to the stressors and changes of the environment.
Um, and, and so it's. It's kind of like if, if you
[01:46:54] Speaker C: want
[01:46:56] Speaker A: to grow bonsai at a high level in Southern California, in a great diversity of species, is. Is almost you need like the aura water or clean water. But that's not to say there aren't people producing bonsai at a high level without it.
I would say as a threshold, if your water TDS, if you, if it's at least under 200 parts per million and you're narrowing the band of species, you grow to hardier varieties like elms, olives, some junipers and pines.
I mean, there's people that still push trees to high refinement. I mean, one example I give that I like is the Chinese curator at the Huntington Gardens. I mean he has a lot of trees he's made over like 30, 40 years. I think that's the level is pretty high.
The refinement is also pretty high. But he's kind of made conscientious decisions only to work with trees that grow well and that he's optimized within his system of care. So that's like from. I mean, a person like that, you could basically say he's like a professional. So the level of diligence and. And precision to produce the results he has is, is very high.
But say for average practitioner, it's right. Maybe you're not necessarily going to be doing bonsai at that level. It's kind of. You want to give yourself as many advantages as possible just to make the process of growing trees easier.
And in that sense it's. Yeah, like water. Water is definitely a big deal. It makes a huge difference.
[01:48:42] Speaker C: I. I will say that, you know, in the short time that I've been doing this, the.
The largest leap forward of quality of growth that I've seen in my collection came with the introduction of reverse osmosis water, you know, and, you know, now it's like, you know, we sort of, you know, dream and scheme about trying to replicate rainwater as closely as possible by, you know, aerating it or aerating the tank that holds the RO or chilling that. And, you know, whether or not any of that ever actually makes a difference remains to be seen. But, but yeah, I, I, I, you know, I mean, I, and I think that that also sort of comes down to my responsibility is to do what I'm told in terms of refining quality of water and quality of nutrients.
[01:49:41] Speaker B: Solid. Appreciate the info and the, the feedback there.
And yeah, interestingly, like, for many, many years, I did not buy Japanese maples because previous to using an RO system, I would try and grow Japanese maples and I just couldn't get them to look right. Like, they would just always look kind of unhealthy and they would get, their leaves would become crispy and this and that. And then two years ago, I finally got another one. I was like, hey, I'm gonna try it again. Just see how it goes.
I used to not use RO water. Now I use RO water. And the thing is like, growing perfectly. Like, there's no issues with it. In fact, I was even worried about this. Peter recommended that I defoliate it for a second time this year, which is like, wild. As usually you, I mean, you would never do that on a unhealthy tree. But, like, the growth that I have gotten on this tree has just been perfect. It's been totally flawless in terms of, from a health perspective. And I'm like, oh, like, I love Japanese maples again. And it was all. Because I think it's all RO water and shade having shade cloth. But I think the RO water has made just like a massive difference for me too.
[01:51:02] Speaker C: So, yeah, great to hear. I, my journey in maples is still new enough that, you know, I, and, and I, I, I have one guinea pig, Japanese maple right now that has seen improvements, but I've got a lot to, you know, I, I've got a long way to go with it. Tridents seem to do better down here and are just hardier in general than, than the J. Maples that I've seen. But, but I agree with you that the quality of water seems to have made a drastic improvement in the quality of the grow, the, the foliage.
[01:51:40] Speaker B: Nice. Yeah, very nice, Very nice.
Glad to hear.
Hey, you know, the other thing I was wondering about earlier? You mentioned that you are working on getting rid of juvenile growth with Itoagawa.
[01:51:56] Speaker A: Mm.
[01:51:57] Speaker B: I was wondering if both of you could touch on that a little bit and just maybe like what causes juvenile growth and what things you can do to try and prevent it as much as possible.
[01:52:09] Speaker A: Yeah. So like. Like Itoigawa in some ways is kind of. That's. I mean it can be very hardy but say more sensitive maybe than other juniper foliage types.
Also. It is like a mountain species as well. It's. It's kind of like, I think does prefer to get a little cold.
Seems like it grows healthier. But I've kind of actually observed this in. In multiple clients and. And this is why I. I mentioned earlier. It's like water alone is.
Is not the. The be all, end all solution because I. I've had some climb. I mean I'm not gonna name any clients, but.
But they. They get like, very excited of like, oh, there's all these fixes I hear about or special fertilizers or new products I can try.
[01:53:09] Speaker C: And.
[01:53:10] Speaker A: And you. And it. It just. You get very sucked into this mindset of like, well, there's these. The. The problem that I'm. I'm facing is because I am just not using this special product or enough fertilizer or the. Or this whatever the premium combination of everything.
So there'll be some people that they'll just try to hit it with everything. Like they'll do the ro. Water, use the best fertilizers, all the new products.
And I've. And it's. Man, I had this one person I worked with.
It's like pre Their kind of water treatment journey, their trees actually were healthier. And it's. It's kind of you. They went too aggressive on the other end of like, well, I need to dose this, I need to dose that and add a bunch of this. And.
And at a certain level, say trees again, which say you're in refinement. Refinement. You have a lot of branches or small branches.
I tell this to. To Jeff and everybody else. It's like, actually we. We don't need the tree to grow like super fast. I'm just looking for stable, hardy, consistent growth. We don't need like ridiculous runners for a tree in refinement. It's actually. It's a down. It's a bad thing.
Another thing that, that when you have trees, which is growing slowly, that has a lot of branches and older branches, you know, it might not be consuming as much fertilizer as you. You think, right. You can. You can also overdo it. And, and generally I. I'm Kind of observing on the juniper chinensis varieties. It's, it's when the, the dosing is. Is too high, it's also, it's like, well then the foliage has more tendency to grow a juvenile. Um, I was kind of like, like observing in, in you know, all the different clients I have and different climates and microclimates. The. The person that has the best growing junipers uses straight RO water, no microdose. So it's like this very low, like 15 ppm water and only just directly supplements solid fertilizer, occasionally does some liquid. But he's just very good on a very consistent regime of care. Always watering precisely. Just doing the basics well. And I'm like, well his junipers are in great condition in Southern California, like between all the Yamadori varieties and Chinenses like perfect foliage all the time. And so I was thinking of that and I was like, it's like hmm, like is the brute force strategy is not necessarily the always the best strategy. Just like throw everything at the tree.
And definitely for Itoi Gawa I found you can over fertilize. And, and so I. I've really been trying to find the last year like a consistent way to feed the tree that's also convenient for me. Right. That's why using dosatrons and stuff before I used to do the fertilizer tea bags, which I got great results from. But just to supplement my collection, I probably needed to make 2 to 3,000 a year at minimum. And just when you just keep getting busier and busier, like sometimes I just, I'm like don't have the time to sit down and, and crank out a thousand tea bags.
And so I started thinking, well, can I up my liquid dosing more to supplement for that? And, and it's, it's kind of. It gets away from you where I. I start dosing very low and then I'm thinking, well maybe if I give my tree a bit more, it'll grow stronger. And like maybe if I get a bit more get even stronger, let me start mixing more things together.
And it's, it starts complicating just the whole formula and system of care. And this is where you have to always step back once in a while if something is not working well, it's disingenuous to think that under the same care or what you've been applying over and over and over, it may, it may not just miraculously change, right. You have to step back a bit and be like, okay, is something I could be doing wrong. And I'm normally looking at just the basic stuff first. Right.
And so, and so what I'm I'm kind of trying recently is that like for my itoi gawas I'll okay, I'm like stopping the heavy microdosing. No more constant dose fertilizer. Give them very clean baseline ppm ro water but use like a high quality like complete fertilizer like biogold, something like that and then just do a, a semi infrequent dosing because say the what I I've been using for my trees and all my client trees like my baseline feeding. I buy a product it's like grow more see grow which is just this is. Is pretty cheap. You can get a lot of it. It's a soluble chemical organic blended fertilizer. There's a little bit of seaweed emulsion in there and it's kind of like my baseline and I, I buy that. I buy some humic acid seaweed emulsion or they have a pre product root ruckus which is already pre blended and, and I mix it with that.
Yeah. And I'm kind of like well I'm just going to give my trees like everything mixed together. I just try to diversify the food as much as possible to cover my bases. And and the part I'm I've been thinking now if like like oh am I can I overdo that something like and this like honestly I don't know. I have to actually like do more research on this. But I mean like the, the humic acid right. It's basically this organic carbon. It can bind to the different nutrients and it's and it makes it accessible or increases the duration of how long these nutrients are available in the soil. For, for. Because I've been using so much of that I've been thinking like oh, can I actually overuse humic acid? Will that conversely also bind and withhold too many nutrients from the system? Right. It's. I'm kind of finding it's the brute force strategy is not always the best. I'm just deter trying to determine what's the right amount for everything.
And and so I'm so for itoi Gawas I've been thinking okay, keep the baseline clean, use a very com good quality or complete fertilizer product and do these supplements but space them out, not microdose too much and, and I'm just. That'll be the new regime and I'll kind of observe the next month or so and see if there's improvements because I have felt maybe I'm over fertilizing recently. It's too heavy handed of an approach
[02:00:37] Speaker C: and that permeates downward to the advice that's implemented in my art as well, which is helpful.
There was something I was going to say about feeding or escape me.
[02:00:53] Speaker B: You know, I'm totally guilty Julian of like buying all different types of fertilizer.
Yeah, uh, I, yeah I, and I mean I agree with, I think part of the, part of the challenge can be even just in examining the results that you get if you're just throwing too many variables like you're just always trying new fertilizers and stuff like yeah. You can't tell if you, if it, if things were a net positive or net negative.
[02:01:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[02:01:28] Speaker B: And so I do, I mean like keeping things simple I think does make a lot of sense that the client that you were talking about like that gets good results with Itoagawa.
That's really interesting to hear that.
[02:01:44] Speaker A: It's very simple, it's consistent and it's like perfect condition foliage. And I'm just like, I'm like oh, like what am I doing with my, my nega dose of, of everything.
I mean stuff I, I've also tried to do because it's, these are hard things to test for but say you use one kind of regime, one kind of product for a long time you could naturally introduce like a imbalance in the feeding or in the soil like too much of one kind of micronutrient. And then sometimes you just need to check on the back of, of your fertilizers like what does it have? I mean some of them, they have no calcium. Right. Because it assumes like the seagro it has actually I think no calcium in it. But I, but I was like oh, we use seaweed emulsion and sometimes supplement fish emulsion. Use other products or bio gold to kind of switch things up. It helps cover the bases.
And so it's my, my current kind of protocol is like I establish a baseline but randomly throughout the year I, I change like the products I'm using just to avoid like redundancy or just too much of one thing.
And so I, I think actually you know, yeah. What I'll be doing in the future, I'm going to back off on my dosing a bit.
I'm. I, I need to make sure actually like some of the products I have, it's because I, I, because I'm using the RO straight all the time that I'm no longer having that problem of my tap water has just so much calcium in it. I have to remember to, to incorporate that in my system sometimes. So I, I've been using occasional Cal Mag products just to supplement my trees and then, and then, and then I am thinking to try to simplify it so maybe at least my, my baseline of what I'm giving my trees at all times.
I think maybe it, it doesn't need to be as high as I thought because before the way I, I try to gauge how much to feed trees is I just observed at what ppm of tap water do I see problems with the trees. And then I know it's getting kind of high. Normally I know above 150 it can start to observe like the, the TDS the total parts per million. I started to observe some variations in the growth condition so I'm like okay, like my total PPM maybe I target below that. So usually the ballpark I've been doing for my trees or Klein trees I was like with everything added in the water target like a hundred 125ppm and probably is going to be okay. And so I've done that at my baseline which is a combination of the sea grow and the, the root ruckus and but I've been, I've been doing that for a long time now and, and I think initially yeah it's like the trees grow really good but there is maybe I'm observing some problems of using too much fertilizer and just basically my own assumptions and extrapolations from observing other clients.
Yeah like there, there's another like a product which I do think it's, it's a great product. It's like the, the NPK solutions or whatever and some other professionals recommend that and I, I looked at the fertilizers is a nice complete fertilizer has all the microbes and everything.
And so I had basically a client that was like oh I'm going to use only this and excessive amounts of this and it's, and it's, it's just yeah like their trees three years ago was healthier than before using the product and so which I comes down to I think using too much. And so I really, I'm trying to fine tune the care. It's like what do my trees need and what is enough and because I, I've been employing more like the brute force strategy the last few years and I think there's limitations do that.
[02:05:56] Speaker C: I, I also have noticed the consistency with the dosatron is something that I, I've benefited from monitoring you know with as much frequency as I can Muster because there's only so much, there's only so much precision that I can get.
Um, and just a quick side note, I've.
I also found that like the, like troubleshooting this system, it's like I, I was using those sort of retractable sort of cloth covered hoses and what I found is that it affected the, the pressure that the dosatron was able to push out. And I was wondering why I wasn't getting better results with, you know, like measuring PPMs. And it turned out that it was the hose.
But I did that for like six months before I, before I, I actually solved that problem. Again.
I learned slow, but I do learn. Um, and you know what I find is that again, it's like the things that I can control are measuring levels and understanding, having a basic fundamental knowledge and understanding of what different fertilizers do, but then, you know, eliminating as many variables with application as possible.
Yeah,
[02:07:23] Speaker A: for sure.
[02:07:24] Speaker B: Well, I feel like fertilizer and well, definitely fertilizer or nutrition in your plant is just like a very deep, it can go extremely deep and there's so much that you could know and it's very hard to figure it all out and apply nutrition. That's perfect. You know, I think that is extremely, extremely complicated and challenging.
Also want to start testing my trees more frequently. I'm interested in like, I know Ryan Neal tests all his trees and then he has a specific recommendations for each tree or certain species within trees. And it's something I'm definitely interested in learning about more.
Although that's a whole nother level and just is. Would be very costly and even more time consuming.
But it is something that I'm interested in. I'd like to learn more about it.
[02:08:29] Speaker C: Me too. I mean, on my end I think that, you know, I. Again, getting things to flower is one of my immediate goals and so of finding, you know, foods that are, Julian, I think higher in phosphorus. Is that what we were talking about?
[02:08:45] Speaker A: All like the Bloom fertilizers, they just have a lot of phosphorus in them. So I mean it's just worth, worth to try and.
[02:08:52] Speaker C: Yeah, but like that's a risk I'm willing to take in terms of some trial and error that I would define as sort of more of like extracurricular, independent pursuit and then come back to the, you know, the, the, the professional relationship and say it seems like this is working.
I, I can't honestly tell whether or not, you know, I'm getting positive results from this. Am I applying it right? Am I applying it frequently enough. What do you think?
[02:09:27] Speaker B: Most definitely. It'd be interesting if you got maybe your flowering variety tested like your beautyberry or. I forget just to see. Hey, maybe it's like lacking in iodine or some micronutrient. Not. I don't know if that would help, but you never know.
[02:09:44] Speaker C: As you were. No, as you were talking about, you know, the last bit about what Ryan does and what you want to do, I was like, hmm. Note to self. So, yeah, it's. For me, it's. I. I've got a gardenia that I'm committed to getting to flower.
There's a. There's a cheerman that. That is flowered once. Pyracantha berries. Beauty berries.
I've been experimenting with some of the dwarf rose that I. Then that was something else I was gonna say is that I do have trees that I view as, like, guinea pigs, you know, in the yard that, like, I have a relatively sort of, you know, low threshold of, like, you know, expendability.
And, you know, if. If I get results, then, you know, I. I get something from it. Sorry. We got a foster dog that is quite loud and pushy.
There he is again.
But no, I. I think that.
What else am I trying to get? Like, I have one shojubai that I view as sort of like the. The little choju by. That could.
But that's also a really good ex.
Example of something that flowers and going, hmm. Why is this doing so.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, those are. Those are the things that.
I mean. I. I suppose that, you know, if the sil. If the eliagnes is Start fruiting, that. That too will be a major win, I think,
[02:11:24] Speaker B: for sure.
Very nice. Very nice.
Well,
[02:11:35] Speaker A: I guess.
[02:11:36] Speaker B: Oh, and then I guess Julian for Julian. Just with itoagawa in general, do you generally find that if you just cut them back too hard that they turn juvenile?
[02:11:48] Speaker A: Uh, y. Yes, definitely. If you cut them back too hard, it will turn juvenile. Um, you know, it's like the. The sensitive species actually is a very good kind of like, litmus test for, like, how good your. Your care is. Basically, the. The thing that's. Say when I. I look at not just itoigawa, but just any juniper foliage type, and I'm like, okay, is this.
Is this client able to care for this? Does this foliage grow in a way that we can productively develop? Um, I say, like, you have a itoi gawa that's growing stressed. It's like your. Your healthy foliage is on the tip and maybe further back, it's like not, not doing as good. It's a little juvenile or weaker. Yeah, I mean if you cut back to that weaker foliage, probably the whole thing's going to turn a juvenile. So it's kind of like this, this balance where, where you, you get the tip strong enough and then the tree is, is appropriately thinned so you create some balance between the tip and the inner foliage. And then as it gets sun grows in better condition and firms up, then I'm like okay, that foliage looks more viable and then I'm able to cut the tip back. But say if that whole process doesn't happen, there's a concession you unknowingly make which just basically means your tree is going to get bigger. Right. For it to stabilize. In a mature foliage state you concede some size which on a big tree is workable, no problem. On a small tree or shohin, that's like a problem, right? Yeah, things get leggiers turn juvenile.
And so I'm just finding it's, it's. Yeah, it's like especially shohin. But, but the, those trees just need very stable consistent care.
They definitely grow better in, in colder climates. As far as I can tell from the people I do work with in, in colder climates that they get like proper dormancy. Seems it, it comes out a bit more robust.
But it's, it's. Yeah, it's, it's not something, I mean for any juniper for that matter, you don't really want to brute force cut it. I, I mean exceptions is be like needle junipers, Tosho femina, like the Cryptomeria, Japanese cedar, those fast growing species. As well as you could treat San Jose and Pastrada in this way.
You basically always keep it in a juvenile state. The tree is very strong and quick growing and you just regenerate the bud tip.
But anything that's like a very fine mature foliage, also like Rocky Mountain junipers, very easy to go juvenile if the care consistency is not there and you overcut it.
Something I tell everybody I work with is that observe the foliage characteristics of whatever you're growing like juniper or not in a three year period.
And if it does not behave or does not improve its quality of growth in your normal regimen of care is very unlikely that it's suddenly going to change. And that could be like this like losing proposition where you're trying to cultivate a foliage type that is gonna get worse over time. Right. And then you, you lose a lot of time in your development.
And, and so I, I really look not just the foliage type but in Combination with the microclimate and that individual's care.
Is this tree growing well? Is it growing productive in the sense that we're able to refine it? Like an example, I've, I've been teaching a lot of people this recently on, on how you build like old juniper branches, like they get like the fingers. It's like the tertiary branches get woody and old. Like the, the Mochikomi feeling and all of that.
There's, there's this, this balancing act where I basically think about how much does a tree elongate versus how much it thickens. And we kind of know for like junipers, I mean you have to let it elongate a little bit or at some point, right? If you just trimming the tree nonstop is just going to get so weak or, or die.
So you're, you have to let the tree grow to gain strength. Also you have to let the tree grow to produce woody tissue. So say like you're doing big wiring, styling, setting, branch lines and pad structure. If the tree does not have an ability to produce on more wood, it means when you cut off the wire, everything's going to flop. And people have kind of observed this a lot. And so to prevent that from happening, there must be a proportional amount of thickening, like some turgidity gained by the woody growth for how much elong it elongates. And at the same time, after it elongates, you need the ability to cut the foliage back to some level because let's say sure the branch gets stronger, but it has a new length and it's heavier and the length is, it's leveraged over more distance. I mean it's going to have a high tendency to flop. And I'm kind of looking for those characteristics in this three year window. And if I don't see, I call this break even point where both in the condition of the foliage and the client's care, if it is not getting woody and resilient enough and also we're able to balance the tree like cut back and manage the strong and weak regions. I'll call it, I'll tell the client I was like, this tree in the current system of care can only become worse. The branches will get too long, it's going to get too heavy, the current design iteration will collapse when you cut off the wire. And then you're going to restart the whole process all over again.
I mean you definitely can do a very good styling and design from scratch, but you lose the whole calendar on building the branches and maturing the branches. And so, so the tree selection matters a lot in conjunction with the care.
And like itoigawa is like, I mean, I have itoi gawas here that grow very healthy, but it can be sensitive in that it's, it's easy for those trees to go downhill. Also, we also had a,
[02:18:43] Speaker C: you know, there's also the thing about like what we believe to be the Shinji Suzuki cultivar of God.
And whether or not like one, you know, one grows better than others, not just in terms of aesthetic, but in terms of artiness.
[02:19:00] Speaker A: Yeah, that rocky mountain we got from Peter, who got it from Connor, had some big approach graphs of Itoi gawa. And so Connor Jensen, he was working with Matt Rill. And the story was that Matt had brought back these itoigawa cuttings from Shinzi Suzuki.
And the advantage is that it was like easier to bend like the woody branches. I, I mean that part, I, I have no idea that's true or not. I, I, mainly the only things I care about is, is how naturally turgid the foliage grows, how fine it is. And, and there are two variations of itoi gawa. There's one I call is like the hand. It's like in these little flat fronds that flip back and forth.
And so it's like these little flat hand fronds that make up the foliage pad. So the, the, the, on the micro scale or the individual pieces, they're like one dimensional direction of foliage. And then there's the itoigawa, which grows in all directions, which is superior. It's better. And so I don't like the little flat frond one as much. I try to look for the more unidirectional compact one. It develops better.
[02:20:28] Speaker B: Gotcha. Is Jeff's tree the type that you like or the type that you're not as big of a fan of?
[02:20:34] Speaker A: No, it seems, I mean the bending part, I have no idea at this stage, just growing out the graphs.
But it does grow like very clean and very compact. And so, you know, as far as I can tell, it's like a nice ethoigala characteristic.
You know, one thing that's very tricky though is that the foliage type will exhibit huge variation depending how well that parent tree is growing. So the good thing that rocky mountain juniper has always been healthy. It's never been unhealthy.
We just always have that tree growing strong. And that has a part to do with why it's itoi gawa looks so good, but so far it seems like it has good characteristics. So I Mean we regrafted on the same tree, we took the kind of heavier approach grafts and we sacrificed scions off that and distributed it around the tree. And so it was good enough that I was like, oh, let's just use the same foliage that's already been graft attempted on it. And this seems like the characteristics are good.
[02:21:47] Speaker B: That's great.
Well, shout out to you and Jeff and I, I hear a lot of people in Southern California say that Rocky Mountain junipers don't grow well in Southern California. So I love to hear that you guys are having success even just with the Rocky Mountain juniper and itoagawa.
[02:22:06] Speaker C: And we're also.
Sorry, Go ahead, Julian.
[02:22:09] Speaker A: Oh no, I was just going to say I, I would agree that of the yamadori foliage types native rocky does not.
You can grow it, but it's not very hardy in Southern California. So like long term, you know, I, I, it's, I mean it is possible to grow things native rocky but I would say in Southern California long term you will save a lot of effort and time if you just, you just craft it.
I mean, I mean you really have to be willing to, to kind of play that like dance and the whole balancing game to keep the foliage long term. And the moment you slip or mess up, it means you start over from scratch. Total redesign, lose the development of all the small branches. It's I, I mean the perspective of a hobbyist and a professional may be different, but now it's in a way I, I'm forced to or I equate everything in time value to have a project that you, you have to do a complete reboot which is not like a, a retentive or constructive reboot. You are losing development.
It's like catastrophic loss. For me. I'm like, like wow, I wasted a lot of time. And this time is correlated with my productive ability of making trees and thereby lost of income and livelihood.
So when I see like the three to five year scope, I was like, oh, this is trending downwards. I'm like, should cut losses early and not pay the penalty in the future.
[02:23:50] Speaker C: And I also think it's worth mentioning that I appreciate that we've also hedged our bets with some of the other graft projects. Like you know, with the blade Cali we're using Kishu with the root over rock prostrada, we're using Futo. And being able to get to watch those, you know, watch the way that those grow as well has is instructive in terms of helping to see how the itoigawa is growing relative to the others, if that makes sense.
[02:24:33] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
And it's interesting up in San Luis Obispo County. I've had really good success with both Itoagawa and Kishu.
I tried Fudo and I did not have success. Like it just does not want to grow well or strong.
However, I do know that we got our futo from different locations. Julian, I think you have like Ed Clark.
[02:24:58] Speaker A: I have Ed Clark, yeah.
[02:25:00] Speaker B: The.
[02:25:00] Speaker A: My mother tree is from him.
[02:25:02] Speaker B: I would like to get some of that because I got some fudo that I purchased off ebay many years ago and it's just not doing that great. So I'm curious.
[02:25:14] Speaker A: I mean the mother tree is huge. Have as many cuttings as you want. You know, I also. I gave Peter a plant maybe three or four years ago and he grew it out so he should have a lot of food. O Scions also.
[02:25:31] Speaker B: For sure. For sure. Awesome. Well, I'll have to get some from one of you guys.
Sweet. Well, I feel like we should start wrapping. Wrapping things up. I absolutely love chatting with you guys. Although I guess one thing we didn't hit on is just John Naka Memorial updates. Do you want to talk about that a little bit, Julia?
[02:25:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I can talk about that a little bit. Yeah. Basically the show is next weekend. So the same venue at the Japanese American Cultural Community Center. They have a gallery there, the George J. Doisaki Gallery.
It's basically during their Japan Nisei Festival. Yeah. But next weekend, the 22nd, 23rd, there'll be exhibit of trees in the gallery.
Usually has like pretty good turnout from the public and some of the bonsai community.
But we've been running that basically as a. As a juried and an open submission show. So anybody can participate.
We have a subset of professionals or practitioners that jury the trees anonymously and. And we try to have a. A small selection of. Of jury trees.
[02:26:58] Speaker C: Yeah.
[02:26:58] Speaker A: So that's. That's coming up soon I guess in terms of. Of updates is. I guess nothing in. In particular. It's the same as how we ran it last year.
I. I have been been thinking though just to make the. The show more because really right now I mean I have some people helping me.
Ryan Pitts, he's been co chair has really helped a lot and. And there's always like some people that just always show up to volunteer and help as well.
But I. I am trying to make the show in org more robust in terms of just gaining more entries and also financially because it's basically the show is funded just by random Donations and a little glass money jar on the table.
But we do have reoccurring costs which is basically the room rent, insurance, random supplies and stuff. That's something I'm like next year I'm toying the idea with trying to get right like a professional or like kind of a bib equivalent in Southern California. And if I'm able to get the ball rolling on that, then I'll have its member base also kind of support the show as a existing professional venue to exhibit trees and, and just I guess to, to keep that legacy of the. The formal former non pukai study group and show going. But it's, but also you know what people had, had told me when I was so sort of. I sort of was forced half like I kind of agreed and took over this.
But you know, I had many people tell me that, you know, if you want to keep this going, it's like I can't necessarily rely and count on like the old guard on supporting me. And a part of it is like a lot of those people are getting older, they've done all this stuff. They could just be getting tired and that I really need to engage and, and recruit kind of like the, the newer or emergent bonsai demographic in the area and. And fortunate or not, after two years of my involvement of this, I have found this to be true that just kind of waiting purely for the goodwill of say the local clubs or the pre existing community will not sustain or keep this event and show up right in the future is really going to be hedged on my efforts and also the current demographic. So, so it's I think a lot of potential but also a big hurdle.
Something I'm figuring out for next year.
[02:30:11] Speaker B: Gotcha. Gotcha.
Well, I'm super bummed that I can't make it this year. I've unfortunately just been traveling like crazy for work.
In fact gonna be in LA next week in the beginning of the week, but then I gotta come home.
But I had such a great time last year. It was seriously like, it was so awesome and the quality of trees was super high level and so I would absolutely encourage anyone to go check it out.
Such a great time. Also awesome Asian food all over that area.
So best of luck with you in that show. I really appreciate it.
Jeff, are you making it out this time?
[02:30:55] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I, I won't be traveling this year so I will be there and I'm really looking forward to seeing, to seeing everybody's trees.
It's, it's been a wonderful, it's been A wonderful introduction to showing trees in the past. I think this is my fourth year showing and, and I just really enjoyed it.
And, and, and, yeah, looking forward to.
And if you're down in LA and you have the time, you're more than welcome in Mygard.
Yeah. So keep me posted.
[02:31:36] Speaker B: Thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah, I think this time when I'm coming down will probably be tough, but I've. I'm probably coming down quite a few times in the year, so one of these days we'll have to make it work. I would totally be down for that. I would love, love to.
So.
[02:31:54] Speaker C: Yeah.
[02:31:54] Speaker B: Awesome. Well, I think we should wrap this bad boy up. That was a awesome conversation. I really enjoyed it.
Most definitely. Awesome. Well, hey, I really, really appreciated your time, Jeff. It's been great getting to know you and I'm really excited to continue to follow your bonsai journey. I know with Julian, you guys are on a really cool path. And Julian, I know you are a leader in the Southern California bonsai community.
Love watching everything that you're doing. You're so talented, man, so intelligent, so wise and so really appreciate talking with both of you guys. Thank you so much for your time.
[02:32:41] Speaker C: Thanks, Jeremiah.
[02:32:45] Speaker A: Okay.
Yeah. So I just wanted to give some follow up to an earlier point about not being 100% honest with clients. And so I want to be totally clear here.
I don't want people to misunderstand that I'm not transparent with clients.
I deeply, genuinely care about the experience my clients have in Bonsai, as well as how well they understand and practice the art.
To engage deeply in bonsai in the client professional relationship, it requires a significant amount of trust.
Excuse me, the client is trusting me that I'm being honest with them as well as my work integrity and just the translation of planning to reality. So just considering consistency in what I say and how it comes to fruition.
The realization of this work takes many, many years and the result is kind of really not obvious. In the process of achieving great bonsai. Right. There are many steps to the process. Not everything is aesthetically or physically recognizable. Right.
The purpose for work not always translates to the end aesthetic goal. And that's another part that's pretty hard.
And so when I engage with the client and we're undertaking a project, I'm looking for a few things.
Of course, like the potential for the project to become good is pretty important.
But a kind of underlooked aspect is that I am kind of looking for the client's enthusiasm and motivation to see a project through this Kind of latter case is pretty important because for many types of material, the upfront intrinsic potential is not necessarily high, but it doesn't mean that the tree cannot become great. And the easiest example of this is a lot of decisions, deciduous material, where we can effectively make everything on the tree. Right. Everything on the tree is built from scratch, cultivated over time.
So kind of like trees, in this latter case, it takes, you know, a lot of effort, a lot of energy, and just purely by function of time. Right? Takes a lot of time to make the tree. And so just through a period of limited visitations, like my technical ability and enthusiasm, it's. It's not enough sometimes, right. The timescale is huge. So it's just a lot is involved to see the project through. And so save. The client has some kind of ambivalence or iffy about the project, and they asked me about it, but the project, say, has potential.
Usually I'll tell them, like, oh, this tree can become good. And that is a genuine answer. I'm not trying to defer the client and just kind of avoid answering, but typically I'll kind of ask and engage.
Do you feel excited about the tree? Do you enjoy the tree?
Ultimately, we practice a bull's eye as. As in part some form of leisure, something we enjoy and love. And. And if you're excited and engaged with that tree, it just translates to the tree just receiving better care over time. The quality of the tree is better, the health is better.
But say in the opposite scenario, if the engagement with the material is very low, the care is very poor, the. The interest is very low. You know, it's.
It's discouraging a little bit for me to want to engage with it, even if the tree is potentially good. And so for a professional, it really means a lot in the partnership when we see trees which are very well loved and cared for and healthy, because you get a lot of options, a lot of potential, and the continued ability for that tree to keep getting better and better. And so in a sense, I really love all kinds and all sorts of bonsai.
The way you can evaluate and say a tree is good can be interpreted in many levels. And so it really is a hard question for me to answer, and I really think to give answers that are precise and genuine. Right. And yeah, I can kind of tell at this point I'm not like, singling out anybody or, Or Jeff. This is just more a general dynamic with clients and professionals. But I can totally tell when clients are trying to. To fish for certain answers and, And If I kind of easily acquiesce, you know, even if, if the information to be given is ultimately true, sometimes nothing is. Is learned there. No value is. Is assigned. And if we go back to that co parenting analogy, it would mean, and this is my experience, that the work and care would just say fulfilled for maybe 80% of the live time with the tree. So basically with the owner, it's just not going to be done to just that higher level of attentiveness and care.
And then say, my effectiveness and ability in the remaining 20% of the live time and say through collaboration, visitations and work periods, it just gets limited in terms of how far we can push the work and really make great trees. And so I'll conclude with this when, when you engage with the professional, myself, anybody else out there right there, there's a number of us doing this kind of work, just have like a open, honest dialogue. You should, you should define very clearly what do you want out of bonsai and, and what do you want your trees to become? You know, myself or another professional, you know, we should be honest about our professional capacity and the work that is necessary to achieve those goals.
It's important. There's that mutual understanding, right? We communicate these things off. We know what's required, what we can put in, and when the parties are on the same page, that's when you can really push and greatness can be achieved.
But also just like you really need to, you really want to listen, right? Say when you hire a professional, bonsai or not, presumably, right? They have a wealth of experience, right? It's their daily livelihood and the number of hours, you know, we engage with bonsai, it's a lot, right? It's maybe innumerable. So when we're creating bonsai in this client, professional relationship, it's truly a collaboration.
But just as you extended a gesture of trust by hiring this professional of really listen to them and kind of think about the reasons for why they may do something or for the goals that are being pursued and just trust them to aid you in the process.
And of course, on the flip side, you know, for the professional, you know, we should uphold ourselves to a high degree of integrity, never deceive the client, and with purpose and intentionality, really engage with them and assist them to realize their goals and bring bonsai to a high level.
So it's kind of, you know, it's a pretty complex topic, but, you know, I just wanted to put that out there.
I'm, I'm very grateful to Jeff, to all of my clients I work with who've supported me so far and engage with me to produce great work and continuing this journey.
I really sincerely, like, appreciate the relationships I it's. I mean, otherwise I could not fulfill my practice, my professionalism, my identity of who I am without any of you guys. And so I'm genuinely grateful for that. And I do hope this is of interest to aid people who are maybe looking to engage with professional or kind of navigating that long term dynamic.
SA.
