[00:00:00] Speaker A: How's it going, everybody? Today's episode is brought to you by Bonsai Central. Bonsai Central is a US Bonsai expo and exhibit that is going down in the center of the United States in St. Louis, Missouri, May 14th through the 16th in 2027.
I'm super excited to get behind this event because I think they are really doing their part to raise the level of corporate quality bonsai in the United States.
They have over $7,500 in prizes in 2027, with $2,500 going to the Best in Show award. You can actually submit trees now for the exhibit, which is going to be judged and juried. They have phenomenal workshop material. I got a sneak peek. They actually sent me some of the trees for the workshop material. I'm really blown away. I have no idea how they were able to obtain this workshop material, but you can take a workshop with several different bonsai professionals that will be there, including Sergio Kwon, Jonas Dupuis, Carmen Liskovensky, Andrew Robson, and Tyler Sherrod.
They have some really cool activities with these professionals. So you can actually go shopping with a bonsai professional, which I think is like such a cool thing to do. You can get really valuable feedback on trees, pots, whatever you might be interested in. And you can also watch them do demos. They're going to have roundtable discussions, they're going to do the workshops, they're going to have the exhibit judging, they're going to have an awesome awards banquet, food trucks. Sounds like an incredible few days to me. So check them
[email protected]. once again, that's bonsai-central.com.
thank you so much for listening and let's get to the episode.
The Black Pondo podcast.
So I know we. We've met before, I want to say, at the national show and maybe twice at both national shows. I think that's the only times that we've actually met in person. Right.
[00:02:20] Speaker B: Yeah. It's a big country, so we only kind of see each other once in a while in big events, unfortunately. But yeah, you're right. I think we've seen each other twice at least. At the Nationals. Yeah. Yeah. Although I don't know if I saw you last.
Did I see you last this.
[00:02:39] Speaker A: Not last one. Not last year, no.
Yeah. Now with. With the PBE on the west coast, the. The national show, while I love it and I would love to get out there, it's just. It can be challenging, you know.
[00:02:54] Speaker B: Yeah. It's a big country, you know.
[00:02:56] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:02:57] Speaker B: Now we have the Mid America belief is called down in. Oh my gosh, it's in St. Louis or something like that.
We have so many. And now of course, we have, as we speak, we have the, the US National Tropical down in Houston this, this weekend. So, I mean, there's a lot going on, which is exciting. Pbe.
[00:03:17] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:03:18] Speaker B: Which is fantastic. I, I really want to go to pbe.
Unfortunately, I don't think I'm going to be able to exhibit because it's just a, you know, it's a whole thing to, to, you know, it's like four or five days just to go there, four or five days to come back, and then four or five days of exhibit time. So we're talking about maybe almost like a half a month that I would have to kind of like set aside. It's unfortunate, but I definitely would like to go and see it because I think it's just phenomenal. Oh, that's awesome.
Yeah. And the quality of trees. I mean, I, you know, your tree, for example, the.
What is it? The, the, the, the coastal redwood that you had. Outstanding, outstanding stuff that you guys are, are doing out in the West Coast.
[00:04:07] Speaker A: Ah, you are too kind. I appreciate it. And that's so great that you'll. That you're probably going to go because it is. I love to such a sight to see and I completely understand regarding getting a tree out there. That's a whole other story.
But that's fantastic that you'll be able to be there.
[00:04:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Awesome. For sure.
[00:04:31] Speaker A: Awesome. Awesome. Well, yeah. Sergio, thank you again. I really appreciate you joining with me and have a massive amount of respect for your work and think that you are so talented. Followed you for a long time now. So it's really an honor to have you on.
Would you tell us a little bit about your background within bonsai and how you have learned bonsai and.
[00:04:55] Speaker B: Sure.
Let me see.
So really quickly, I am Cuban. I was born in Havana, Cuba. Right. And when I was very little, maybe almost five years old, my parents left Cuba and we moved to Spain.
Now the reason why I'm telling you that is because we lived in a very small apartment in Spain.
It's a little bit different than the United States where everybody's got houses and stuff like that. In Spain, most people, unless you were very rich, you live in this kind of little tiny condo, condominiums type of thing. Anyway, so I, since I was little, my mother, in our tiny little balcony, she grew a lot of flowers and plants and I became fascinated with the plants.
I was helping her water them I became fascinated with just a simple fact of looking at a plant and how it leafed out, how it flower, all that stuff.
I don't know where that came from. It was just something innate in me that. And I remember.
And of course I was maybe at that time, I was maybe 10 years old, I was growing a little plant, a parsley plant. I don't know exactly how I got it. And I was growing in a little pot and I was fascinated by this little plant just growing there. It was parsley and I would cut the little leaves, I would give it to my mom to put in the food and stuff like that. But I was fascinated how this plant, little by little, kind of thicken up the trunk. The roots got thick in that pot. Much like, you know, I guess I was doing bonsai even before I even knew what bonsai even was. Certainly the time growing in Spain, nobody knew what bonsai was. So I hadn't, you know, so that became sort of a fascination for me overall. And, and I, since very little, I sort of exhibited a skill for art, basically drawing and painting and whatnot.
And so I think that little by little, my fascination with plants mixing with my art background, whatever talent I had, was sort of like a perfect marriage. I remember that years later, when I was about 15, I was already. I had already moved here to, to the States. My family came here.
They gave me a little juniper when I was 15 or 16 for my birthday. And of course, you may have heard this Jeremiah before, it was one of those small size, and they tell you, oh, just put on a humidity tray, spray it, put it by the window and it will do just fine. And of course. But a couple weeks later, the whole thing died.
At that time I thought that bonsai was a type of plant. I did not realize that it was an art form, right? So I thought to myself, well, I probably don't have the skill set or the talent or whatever to grow these little plants that were so interesting and intriguing to me. So I left that. That was very disappointing to me. And I said, well, I probably cannot really grow this for whatever reason.
And years later I remember getting interested again in bonsai.
And I was living with my parents at the time I was really out of college.
I was living in my parents basement and I thought I was trying to decorate my little bachelor pad, if you will.
And I thought to myself, well, maybe in that corner over there, I can put a bonsai under a spotlight. It will look beautiful, right? At that time I didn't realize, you know, I still Thought that these things, you know, you could grow them indoors or whatever because of their size, right. So I went to. I was working in Manhattan, and there was a store, bonsai store in midtown Manhattan. And I went there and with the intent of buying a tree, which I did, it was a huge. Was a fairly big juniper, Procumbens. Juniper.
But here's the thing. The sales lady, I remember this distinctly because that changed my outlook completely with what bonsai was. She said to me, okay, you're going to buy this. This is great. But you do realize this is A, a tree, real tree, and B, it needs to be outside getting sun and, you know, air and even snow. It needs a period of dormancy. And when she said that, I was like, I did not know any of that stuff. Okay? So that changed completely the way just those little things that she said to me did so much.
She set me straight. Exactly, exactly. And I bought books. I remember Peter Chan's book was one of the very, very first ones that I. That I bought.
And I mean, I'm dating myself, but this is back in the 80s, late 80s. And anyway, so. And unfortunately, at that time, that was pre Internet, so we didn't have much information at that time. There were some books and stuff like that.
So I had to. I kind of had to sort of learn the hard way, I guess, you know. But anyway, so.
So, yeah, so I figure, listen, this is a. I realized the sort of artistic aspect of bonsai, how artistic it could be, essentially.
And that's how I became fascinated with it.
[00:10:48] Speaker A: That's awesome. That is very cool. So you've been into bonsai for quite a while, then?
[00:10:54] Speaker B: Yeah, you know.
Yes. I'm dating myself.
I was doing a workshop recently, and somebody mentioned to me, oh, you're. You just. I. I thought that you just popped into the. Into the bonsai scene relatively recently, but I didn't realize that you've been at it for a long time. And I said, yeah, there's. There's a lot of work that I had to put behind, just me somehow coming into the scene.
You know, I was telling, actually, Ryan in one of his podcasts, he had me over in one of his podcasts a while back, and I told them that I've been at it for, like, maybe almost 40 years now with that. I would say probably two thirds of that time were just kind of. I don't want to say wasted, but it was just me just. It was just a pure hobby. I was just growing plants and pots. Didn't still know much. I Didn't put a lot of effort in learning what it really was. Right. And how I could get better. And then the last, probably I would say, well, now 15 to 18 years, maybe a little more than that. I started really becoming a lot more involved and a lot more sort of approach with a lot more intent.
Now this. Yeah.
[00:12:16] Speaker A: Was there something that made you make that switch in your mind from hobbyist to more hardcore?
[00:12:23] Speaker B: I would say I think the switch, for me, as I'm remembering, and this was probably not long ago in terms of. So I never really had a vision for like, oh, I want to become a bonsai professional or a more serious practitioner or whatever. I thought, you know, this is something. A true hobby for me.
At that time, I was, you know, busy with work and I was busy also with my own. I was doing some painting and drawing on the side of all that stuff. And I remember a friend of mine who's not in bonsai anymore, unfortunately, but he said to me, hey, listen, you know, our club would like to have you over because I noticed that you have a lot of progressions on your. On your.
On your trees.
And I think our club will enjoy you giving a presentation. As I say, I'm not so sure about that, maybe. So I ended up agreeing and I went there.
Um, this was maybe 10, 11 years ago, and it went really well. And I thought to myself, maybe this is something that I can kind of, kind of, you know, dabble into a little more seriously. Um, I mean, there's nothing better than doing something that you're passionate about and on top of it, getting paid, right?
So I was like, well, maybe this is something that I can do on the side or whatever.
And then little by little, I got more and more work.
You know, more clubs wanted me to kind of either do a presentation or a demo or workshops and. And that was starting to combine or, you know, at the time where, you know, I was. I had been working for Nickelodeon for, my gosh, maybe 23, 24 years, almost 25, I think.
And unfortunately, during COVID I was just laid off at that time.
And that was sort of the time that I started thinking, you know, I may start pursuing other things. I may start maybe pursuing my true passions. I'm not getting any younger. And that's where I was starting to make the transition to a more serious sort of being a little more serious.
I don't know that I. I'm comfortable calling myself a professional. I'm more comfortable calling myself a bonsai artist and professional. I'm not. It Always sounds a little funny to me when I describe myself as such, but I suppose that I fit that category since I'm getting paid for my services. So anyway, so that's how I kind of started making the transition. And now 2026 has been the first year that I've sort of completely gone 100% into, into bonsai.
[00:15:10] Speaker A: Fantastic.
Now how, how did you learn the technical aspects and develop your, your skills over the year? I, I'm curious. I feel like there's a lot of people that have it as a hobby.
[00:15:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:24] Speaker A: And how did, how did you develop that?
[00:15:27] Speaker B: Yeah, well, the first thing is I, I, unfortunately, because the way, you know, my life went, I had, I never had the, the opportunity or luxury to study in Japan. I would have loved to, believe me, but I didn't have that opportunity.
You know, I had a family, I had to support my family, all that, all that good stuff. So that's one thing that I would have loved to do. But those were not the cards that were dealt to me. So that was. So basically how I learned was I'm self taught. Mostly I learned through YouTube.
That may be a little laughable to some people and maybe even sound a little silly, but that's how I learned. How do you do grafting? Okay, let me look it up.
There's so much good information, there's also bad, but there's so much good information these days on the Internet that, so I try to kind of navigate through all that stuff and learn how to do grafting, how, how to ramify the industry, et cetera, et cetera. Certainly I think these days you have professionals like your own teacher, Peter T, Michael Haggadorn, Ryan Neal, of course, even Andrew Robson, a host of other folks that are so good and I've learned so much from all of them. Bjorn, of course, that's another guy that's one of my, my heroes. But, but yeah, I think there was more through the Internet that I learned a lot of these techniques, you know, magazines, books, whatever I can get a hold of.
I don't think that to, you know, these days with so much information, I don't think it's necessary to go to Japan to study. Now that may be, that may raise some eyebrows with some folks.
I'm not minimizing the importance of that for sure. And I think if you have the opportunity, I say go for it.
But I don't think it's completely essential these days. You have fantastic professionals working in the US these days that you can learn from that happen to study in Japan, like Peter T. For example.
But yeah, so that's pretty much how I, I, I learned my, my craft.
[00:17:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I used to daydream while I was sitting at my desk in the office about going to Japan and doing an apprenticeship as well. And I think there's pluses and minuses to any path you choose within life.
And so, but, but I mean, I always would daydream about that and, and think about that, what would that life look like and things of that nature.
I, I would agree with you in terms of not needing to go to Japan. And I think it's interesting. I'm pretty sure there's actually no Americans in Japan right now apprenticing, which if you go back 5, 10 last 15 years, like, it seems like there's been a constant stream. And so it's interesting that there's actually, I don't think I could be wrong if some, if, if I am wrong, let me know.
I know there are foreigners for sure, and Westerners apprenticing in Japan, but I haven't heard about any Americans that haven't finished their apprenticeship yet.
[00:18:52] Speaker B: I could be wrong too.
I don't think. I think you're right. I think the last one that I know of is Seth Nelson, very talented professional. Now that just came from hn, but I think that he's the last one. And of course, Michael might take, but he's Canadian. I know he's also just came from Japan, but I don't know. You're right. I don't know if there's any Americans right now in Japan studying Japan. Yeah. So that may be something to be said about that.
[00:19:27] Speaker A: And then also I always wonder, I always debate in my mind at this point in time, would it be better to go to Japan, do an apprenticeship, or would it be better to try an apprentice with an American professional?
And I almost think American professional is the way to go because you get more experience with native material and probably the types of work that you would be more interested in doing.
But at the same token, in Japan you would get the experience with those super old trees and you would see the kokufu and all that. So I'm not sure which way would be the best way to go.
[00:20:06] Speaker B: It's an interesting question for sure.
And that's a, that's a good point that you bring. I mean, the way you, you can start here with a Ryan Neal or Michael Hagedorn, for example, you know, they deal with native material that, that is suitable for, for us here in the United States.
But yeah, it's an interesting question because, I mean, again, being in Japan, I've been there twice, just visiting and I, and I, by the way, I've learned so much. You can learn so much by just observing. I wasn't, you know, again, I didn't study there, but I did visit several nurseries. And just by looking, you can, you can get so much out of that.
But yeah, you know, I, you know, having the benefit of being at the kokofu or the taikan 10, all that stuff is definitely invaluable. So maybe I don't know if the answer ultimately is a combination of both, but certainly those that cannot go to Japan, certainly, I think they're well served these days with starting with one of the great professionals working today in the U.S. 100%.
[00:21:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
Well, Sergio, I absolutely consider you a bonsai professional. And I know you made the leap in 2026. I think your work is absolutely incredible from a technical and an artistic perspective. I think it's extremely high level.
And so it's really great to be able to talk with you today.
[00:21:41] Speaker B: Thank you so much.
[00:21:42] Speaker A: Where'd the name M5 come from? I've never knew the answer to that. And is it Mach 5?
[00:21:49] Speaker B: It's so. And you. Well, you know this, Jeremiah, because you are also.
Once in a while, I see you on Bonsai Knot. So backtracking here for a second. When I was a little kid in school, I was maybe, I don't know, eight, nine years old. Perhaps the one of the first things that I learned how to draw really well was a Mach 5. The Mach 5. If you know, speed racer, that's a car, right? The Mach 5. And I learned how to draw every single angle, from top to bottom to side view, whatever.
I was fascinated with the cartoon anyway.
So fast forward to several years later when I joined Bonsai Knot. In fact, I remember 2011 when I joined. It's been a long time ago.
I did not want to name my name. You know how everybody has a handle name whatever.
[00:22:44] Speaker A: I didn't want to.
[00:22:44] Speaker B: For whatever reason, I didn't want to use my name. So I named myself Mach 5. And it got to the point where I would go to conventions later on and people would know me as Mach 5 rather than Sergio. So it was kind of funny. But, but. And then when I created, I guess you can call it, you know, my bonsai brand, and I go like this with quotes, I obviously didn't want to name it Mach 5 bonsai sounds a little weird. And also there's a whole you know, trademark all that, you know, deal to, you know, to contend with. So anyway, so I shortened the whole thing to M5 bonsai works. Some people think it's the BMW M5.
So they're close in the sense that it has to do with a vehicle. It's just not BMW.
Yeah, I shunned the whole thing with M5 because it's got meaning. It was the first time, one of the first things I learned how to draw. And I'm like, oh, I guess I'm pretty good at this, this thing of, you know, that they call art.
So anyway, yeah, so that's where it comes from.
[00:23:48] Speaker A: Cool story. And it's a, it's catchy. I like it. I like it very much.
You know, I was wondering, and actually, I should explain. I feel like this, I don't know if this is a good question to ask people or not, so let me know your thoughts on this, because I know back in the day when I was in a band, one of the questions that I hated the most was like, what genre are you in? Or what bands do you sound like?
I'm curious, how, how might you describe your aesthetic? Personal bonsai style?
Yeah, question.
[00:24:23] Speaker B: Sure. No, I, I think it's a. I think it's a fair question.
I, I get asked that a lot, and it is tough. It is a tough thing to answer because at least for me, you know, you're you, right? You, you do your thing. And, you know, at least for me, I'm not aware that. Cause some people say, oh, you do. You do have a style. I'm like, do I? Cause to me, every single, every single bonsai poses a different kind of sort of design challenge.
So it's difficult for me to say, this is my style. Right.
Where other people may be able to describe it more in a better way than I can. But I, but if I had to answer you, Jeremiah, I would say if Walter Powell had a baby with Bjorn, just picture that. Okay.
That would be probably more or less what makes. Describe my style. I, I, I don't know. It is a very tough question for me to answer, but that was the
[00:25:35] Speaker A: best answer I've ever heard in my entire life. I love it.
So very nice, very nice. The visual was interesting. Right?
[00:25:44] Speaker B: Exactly. There you go. There you go. You take that, you know, and run with it.
But yeah, I would say the naturalistic style, water palace with the refinement, pseudo Japanese kind of style of Bjorn.
I would say I'm somewhere in the middle there. I mean, of sorts, it's a Tough question. It definitely is a tough question for me to answer.
[00:26:11] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know if that's a good question or not. I'm not sure.
I don't know. It's a question I, I feel funny about. I wouldn't, I don't want to answer that for myself, like, so maybe it's unfair of me to ask it of people, but I appreciate it. And you had the best answer I've ever heard in my entire life. So great work there. I love it.
Well, fast forwarding a bit. So I, I understand that you made the leap from a longtime career with Nickelodeon and you have become a full time bonsai professional, dedicating your life to, to bonsai.
What has 2026 look like? And is that, did you go full time Bonsai again in 2026? Is that when it happened or a little bit, a While?
[00:27:04] Speaker B: Yeah. So 26 has been really great for me.
I would say that the needle is moving forward, moving in the right direction. Let me just say in terms of building my, my, my bonsai business, I built a new studio, as you may know.
I've gotten more clients and I've done a few big events. Still a couple more to come this fall.
So 26 has been really great. And again, I'll take the opportunity to kind of appreciate everyone out there. Clubs and individuals have, that have supported me. You know, it is wonderful. And yeah, so it's been, it's been, it turned out to be a lot better than I expected. And I'm just hoping that the 27, you know, is, is just as good.
So, you know, so. Yeah.
[00:28:03] Speaker A: What type of work do you take on professionally, Sergio? Like, what are you open to if anyone is, is ever interested?
[00:28:11] Speaker B: Oh my gosh. Well, I think anything that has to do with bonsai, right. I do. I mean, I guess I'm more known for my deciduous work, but I do appreciate and I do welcome conifer work as well.
I like working on conifers even though I have not, you know, up until this point, I've worked mostly with deciduous material and I'm still traveling. Right. I don't mind traveling. I like working with people, so. But I would hope that in the future I can do more from my studio and not have to travel so much.
But in terms of type of work, I tell people, even if you bring me tropicals, which I don't have any tropicals, I would say that again. For me, a bonsai is a problem, is a design, problem solving kind of challenge. So it doesn't matter whether It's a tropical or a conifer or a broadleaf evergreen or a deciduous. It doesn't matter to me.
It's all always a design challenge to take on.
[00:29:26] Speaker A: And are you doing a lot of one on one type work? Are you doing a lot of workshops or just a variety of. Several. And I know you're also headlining conventions, which I'm hoping we can chat about towards the end of this.
[00:29:38] Speaker B: Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
So for now, I'm taking one on ones, maybe two students at a time.
I think that study groups are good, but for the space that I have built, it's just a bit of a tight space.
So having three or four people might not be so comfortable, I guess.
And also for me, I like to focus on just like the one person and the material that they bring in rather than me focusing on four or five different people.
It's a little different. Right, that when I go to clubs and stuff like that, sometimes I realize that I have to do like 10 people so that I have to adapt. That's just part of being a good professional.
You have to adapt to the situation.
And whether it's somebody brings in beginner material or somebody brings in advanced material, you have to adapt to both.
So.
But yeah, and yeah, again, I'm traveling, doing, you know, working with clubs and headlining for bigger, bigger events.
And that's all great. That's all great. I mean, for me, I'm sorry.
So passionate about bonsai, that as long as I'm traveling or doing something for bonsai, I'm very happy.
[00:31:05] Speaker A: That's great. That's so great.
I love it.
So you said that in 2026 you designed a workshop or you built a new workshop.
Can you tell me a little bit about that process?
[00:31:20] Speaker B: Yeah. So that was a long time sort of dream for me is building a space specifically for me to do my own work. Studio.
Up until then I was doing. For me and for some clients, I was actually doing everything from my garage, which I said to myself, if I'm going to go a little more serious about this, if I'm going to be more of a, you know, professional, I guess I also wanted a more professional setting.
So I think that was important for me.
So I built this studio.
When I say build it, let me just, let me clarify that it is a prefab sort of structure. Right. The only thing is that I customize the hell out of it. I put some extra windows, metal roof, all that stuff, insulated doors. And then I hire somebody to do a foundation and the Surrounding areas.
So yeah, and that was pretty much. And just recently I just finished, I had to do some painting in the inside.
My only mistake in that process was like, well, let me just also say as I'm remembering is when I actually built this so called studio, the first thought too was that it was going to have sort of dual purpose. During the growing season it was going to be a bonsai studio and during the winter I was going to keep trees inside there.
What happened was that as I was finishing everything, I did put new floor, I did finish the walls and stuff like that. It was looking so nice that I'm like, I don't think there's no way in hell that I am going to keep trees and watering this in here during the winter because it's going to get destroyed.
So that idea went out the window and now it's just like a year round studio.
The only mistake that I made was not finishing the ceiling. And because it's got a black metal roof during the summer it got over like 110 degrees in there. So I had to hire somebody, a couple guys to insulate it and sheetrocked the ceiling. So and that made a huge difference in terms of like temperate keeping the temperature a little more, more in check in the inside. So. Yeah, but, but like I said, it just, just recently completely finished and. And I'm so happy.
[00:34:00] Speaker A: Ah, wow. I can't believe that is prefab. That looks so nice. It's, it's so clean. I love all the, the windows that you did. I like just the, the very clean, simple black structure and it looks incredible. Like I can't believe that I didn't had no idea. It looks awesome. I love the inside.
If anyone's interested, you can find pictures of it on Sergio's Instagram, which we should have probably shouted out at the beginning. But that's M5 underscore. Bonsai underscore works, right?
[00:34:36] Speaker B: Yes sir. Yes.
[00:34:38] Speaker A: Yeah, looks so good.
Dream little workshop right there. And also wanted to compliment you. Your garden is just absolutely phenomenal.
[00:34:50] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:34:51] Speaker A: When I was up at Peter T's place just a few weeks ago, you were the conversation of, or excuse me, the topic of a conversation we had in the workshop. Everyone was talking about how you have just such a nice bonsai garden and studio and that you, you did just such a very simple but clean, elegant bonsai garden. And we were just saying how awesome it was as someone was, was talking about building one for themselves and we're like, oh, you got to check out Sergio's So incredible work there.
[00:35:26] Speaker B: Thank you so much. It really means a lot to me. Thank you.
[00:35:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
Would you maybe describe what your garden looks like and maybe talk about the aesthetic choices that you made with it?
[00:35:42] Speaker B: Sure. So, again, going back a little bit some years ago, this was probably in 2012 or 13. That's when I sort of started building my garden. Before that, I used to have the trees kind of on cinder blocks and benches that are like, with pressure treated wood on cinder blocks. And it was just really kind of not. I was not. I mean, for a while it was okay, but I was becoming increasingly dissatisfied with the setting because it wasn't. I mean, I was putting so much work into some of these trees, and they were not. They were not being not appreciated or for me, I couldn't appreciate them in the way they were set up. So I got a little tired of that and I decided to build a garden. The first thing that I built was the arbor that you might see in some of the photographs.
You know, I wish I had built it bigger, but, you know, at the time I'm like, oh, this is big enough. But, you know, you always run out of space.
But I did not set out to do either a nursery type of setting, because I don't. That's not really where I wanted to go is, you know, selling trees or whatever.
So I wanted to do more of a display garden.
But even though I took a lot of inspiration from some of the best or the better Japanese gardens, you know, one of them that come come to mind, not that I'm. Not that I'm comparing my garden at all to his, but. But he was. He's always an inspiration. Is Shinji Suzuki's garden. I mean, that's arguably the most beautiful garden in. In Japan, you know, but there is a certain kind of clean quality, organized the, the.
The tones of the colors. It feels subdued and very quiet. There's a quiet elegance to some of the better gardens in Japan that I took kind of note of.
But I did not try to do an overly Japanese garden. I think it's more.
I guess I would describe more as a Western version, you know, I guess inspired Japanese garden. But it's not really. I didn't try to do any kind of sort of like Japanese, like, how would you call it, like lanterns or anything like that. In fact, I had one.
I did put one, and I took it out.
It just did not feel very authentic to me because I'm not Japanese. Even though I love Japanese gardens, I'm not Japanese. Did not feel Authentic. So I wanted to do something. I wanted to take some of the best things like the clean quality, organized quality of the Japanese gardens and apply it to whatever version I made out of this out of my garden.
[00:38:50] Speaker A: Fantastic.
[00:38:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I hope that sort of answer the question.
[00:38:55] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. So how and where. And can you talk with me a little bit about how and where you found all the elements for your garden?
[00:39:07] Speaker B: Yeah, so the elements are pretty. When you really dissect it, you know, it's. It's fairly simple. So the number one choice for me was to use gravel, right. That was taken from some of the better Japanese gardens that give you that kind of very clean, quiet feel to it as opposed to using mulch or as opposed to using grass or whatever. I did have grass for a while there, believe it or not, and not only became a problem with cutting the grass, but also for me it became more visual noise. And again, one of the things that I should mention as well when I was designing the garden is like I wanted to make sure that the bonsai were the sort of the primary thing that you would see. Right. Everything else hopefully complements the trees. I did not want to put anything that would distract too much from the actual trees themselves.
But the materials themselves are pretty simple. I mean gravel, right? I use a two tone gravel. The center of the garden has a bit of a different, more, slightly more warm color than the outskirts of the garden, which is more like a dark gray to contrast a little bit. And then the top of the benches are just pressure treated wood. I did get clear wood so that you don't have a lot of knots in there.
And then some of them. Like the center of the garden is pressure treated wood, but it's also painted, I spray painted in dark gray just to kind of set it a little bit, I guess make it not.
How should I say it, not as visually tone it down visually, basically.
Um, you know, for, for me, the wood, the raw wood kind of sort of feels a little more distracting in my, in my eyes. So I wanted to set that down a little bit visually and, and other. Other single benches or single bonsai stands at the top of them is made out of their bluestone, you know, slabs, basically.
[00:41:18] Speaker A: Yeah, that's cool.
[00:41:20] Speaker B: I'm playing a lot with like. And I wanted things a little more feel a little more.
I guess it's a mix of geometric with some kind of more asymmetrical, I guess, you know, elements just to contrast each other a little bit. But, but ultimately I wanted something that felt a little clean and Organized.
The other thing I want, I want to mention to you, which is very hard, I think it's very hard for all of us is not to try to overcrowd our gardens with too many trees. Because otherwise, at least for my garden, you know, it's not only not good for the trees, but then visually it's like, where am I looking here?
So for me, that was important to try not to overcrowd my garden especially. I mean, I think if you have a nursery. I had a guy, as a matter of fact, about three years ago, that came to visit my garden. He really liked it. He was like, oh my God, beautiful garden. But, but he said, but I'm a little disappointed. I'm like, oh, why is that? He says, because I thought that you had benches full of trees for sale. I'm like, well, I'm not really running a commercial nursery here. This is, that's not really what I do. So I'm sorry that that sort of disappointed you. But. But yeah. And the garden is not that big.
You know, I know that some people say, hey, I like to take a tour of your garden. Like, well, the tour is going to take you probably about like just 30 seconds because it's not that big.
You know, that's another thing I wanted to kind of keep. I wanted to, whatever I do, I wanted to make sure that I can manage not only the size of my collection, but the size of my garden, all that stuff. Because it's a lot of work to keep a garden clean and weed free and all that stuff while taking care of trees. I mean, you, you, you, you're familiar with all that stuff. So it is, it's hard. It's hard. So I, I always want to, I don't want to take on more than I can, than I can chew, I guess. I guess that's the same. But, but you know what I mean.
[00:43:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
Well, Sergio, seriously, it looks phenomenal. Like, just so clean.
I love the, the spacing of your trees. I feel like you, you hit the nail on the head with that.
Feels very Japanese influenced, but still very Western.
Did you source locally all the, all the stone that you used, all the gravel and the boulders?
[00:44:00] Speaker B: Yeah. So the boulders that you see, particularly in what I call the center of the garden, if you will, those, actually I was lucky enough because those are from my own property.
Oh, great.
Somebody. I mean, it was, it was not easy to, to actually take those big boulders from, from point A to point B into the garden. It took a lot. We figure that one of those boulders was probably about £5,000.
And it's not that huge, but it's a pretty big, big, big piece.
But I was able to find those boulders in my property, and what I liked about them is that they feel very weather.
So they don't feel like new new, basically new, you know, rocks or whatever their weather. They have lichens growing in them, all that stuff. So that gives the. Helps give the garden this sort of very aged feel to it.
So that. That I got lucky with. Yes. So I didn't have to go and, you know, source that or buy those boulders or anything like that.
So.
[00:45:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, the boulders look like they have been there for a very long time. They have a nice patina on them.
And I think you did just such a great job there.
[00:45:22] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:45:25] Speaker A: I guess, you know, I'm curious for anybody out there, and you. I feel like you gave some really good technical tips already. But just for anybody listening, are there any technical aspects that you might recommend or other technical aspects you might recommend to someone that wants to build their own bonsai garden?
[00:45:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say a couple of things. One, I would say very important is the orientation or the light that you might get.
[00:45:53] Speaker A: Right.
[00:45:54] Speaker B: I always say, for me, anyway, I think is better to have too much light than not enough, because you could always build a shade structure or whatever.
But if you. I mean, and I know that that's not possible for, you know, for your individual kind of situation.
Some folks have a lot of trees growing in their backyard or whatever.
But I think if you can, I say, place your area whether it's a garden or whether it's a small area for your trees that have too much light rather than not enough, because you can always shade your trees, not enough light might give you more issues, I think, in the long run, not to mention, you know, longer internodes or whatever.
And of course, you know, in terms of the design of the garden, make sure that it has a nice logical flow, I guess.
Place your trees at a height that you can observe the trees or appreciate your trees in a good way.
Yeah, I would say that those are probably. But light is an important one, you know.
And I would say, once again, try not to overcrowd your garden, you know, your trees.
It's not good for the trees, and it's also not good to appreciate them.
So when you. One on top of the other, try to kind of have a visual sort of hierarchy to the floor of your garden, if possible, you know, and it's not an easy thing to do, you know, I mean, I'm always tinkering with my garden. I'm still doing it. I always say that the garden is like, kind of living entity, and I take care of the garden much like I do with a tree. Yeah, it's like something that I. That I take care of, and I'm always tinkering with it. In fact, I. This morning I was out there, and I'm like, I think I want to do this instead of that or whatever. I want to move things around a little bit. Nothing major, but some kind of aesthetic upgrades, if you will, that I want to do. But I'm always tinkering with. With. With that.
[00:48:04] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like I am always tinkering with my garden as well. And I also. I. I feel like I messed up on a lot of the things that you just mentioned. For example, I'm really not happy with the way that I laid all my trees out, and I want to do another version, and it's tough because I put posts in the ground, and so I made it fairly permanent. I wish I actually made everything so that it could actually move. Like, so not putting posts in the ground and creating some type of benching that I could move around and adjust.
I also put the trees a little bit too close in certain areas, and it just kind of drives me crazy now. So I hoping to do a version 2 at some point in the somewhat near future.
But I also. I almost feel like.
Or I feel like it's just so hard to nail on your first time.
[00:49:01] Speaker B: It is.
It absolutely is. And, you know, again to your point, Jeremiah, I.
You know, I did some things that I. That I wish I hadn't done. And one of the main things, though, in the. In the center of the garden I had back in the day, if you look at some of the pictures, and I don't know if they're still up on social media, but probably not. I did this sort of round thing that looked kind of like a fountain with, like, you know, like, stone wall, and I ended up hating that whole thing, and it took me forever to do it.
That's why I just took all that out. And that's when I put the boulders and the single stands on whatever, and I feel happier about that. But I hear you. I totally hear you that it's. It's a tough thing to. Especially to nail in the first time around.
It's not easy. It is absolutely not easy to design a garden. It's just not. I mean, at least. At least for me. It's definitely not.
You know, I just Kind of wish. But again, it goes back to this. I wish I had a little more space on that area because my garden is on the side of my house and then the studio is on the other end of my house.
And in between, I have. On the back. It's actually kind of towards the back of my house. I have a long gravel path that joins both of them.
But I kind of wish now that I had more space in my garden. But at the same time, going back to what I just mentioned to you before, it's like I gotta really be careful because, you know, the bigger things get, it becomes more time consuming, all that stuff. And yeah, I hate to have a space where I cannot manage and full of weeds and all this stuff. It would absolutely drive me nuts, personally, you know?
Yeah.
[00:51:00] Speaker A: I mean, from your, from your pictures, I feel like I can see how clean. And you're like, your garden looks like almost surgical in a good way.
I don't know. Weeds drive me nuts as well. And I feel like it's true, by the way.
Yeah, everybody gets weed.
[00:51:22] Speaker B: Yeah, right? Yeah. Even with gravel. Because a lot of people ask me, you look like you don't get weeds. Oh, I get them. Oh, I get them. I get leaves in the autumn. It looks. Yeah, I get all that stuff. It's just that I'm. I try to be on top of it. Not, you know, unfortunately, you know, because we all have lives and, you know, we got to, you know, do the things I don't, you know, I'm not. I'm not on top of my garden 24 7.
So sometimes I'm like, oh, my God, I got to, you know, I got to get out there and, you know, weed or whatever. But, you know, it is.
Is a constant thing. You know, it's. It's.
And you know, it goes back to like.
It goes back to how much energy you want to put into it.
I'm completely fully invested at this point. I'm like, I'm full on.
But I realize that some. For some folks, it's just. Just a pastime. It's a hobby. And that's totally fine. Absolutely fine with that. It's just it.
What are your goals? Right. What do you want from. From bonsai then? You know, you just have to be able to answer that question for yourself.
[00:52:29] Speaker A: That's a very, very important question.
So I wanted to ask you about your bonsai goals. Although I just wanted to mention one last thing I absolutely love with. With your bonsai garden. I love that you put in shade cloth that you can put up and what do you call it? Like roll it back, essentially.
That is so incredible. Like, I wish I. I had that ability. Mine just stays up during the growing season for the most part. However, how would you describe how you have your shade cloth set up?
[00:53:05] Speaker B: So, yeah, so that's on the side or the back of my studio.
I don't think you can see it on the. In the recent photographs and all. I haven't photographed that yet.
And I have built a simple sort of wooden structure so that I can hang basically the retractable. But those that are listening, you can get those on Amazon. That's where I got mine. It is very inexpensive. A lot of people think that I bought this super fancy. It is not. It is actually very inexpensive. Are relatively inexpensive and yeah, so there, as you mentioned, your mind is retractable. Right. So that now, for example, in mid to late September, I'm going to retract them. I'm going to get a little more sun in that area.
And I would say I forget, but I think it probably is like a 50% shade cloth. So it can. It kind of blocks the sunlight about 50%, which has done. Because that area, that specific area is for things that are either in development or small trees.
A lot of accent plants I have there. So it's not meant. That area is kind of like a little bit of more of a. Not a display area for sure, but more of just kind of more of a workable area where I'm going to even do in the future. I'm going to do more repottings in that area, all that stuff. So it's not really meant for a display area, is more for like an actual working space and to keep mostly small trees there.
[00:54:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, just having the ability of retractable shade cloth, I feel like is such an advantage. And it just gives you one more lever to pull on when we're talking about the horticultural care for our trees.
[00:54:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:54:58] Speaker A: And so I think that's so awesome. Were you saying it? The actual system that you purchased, like the shade cloth track system is for sale on Amazon?
[00:55:07] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. Okay. Again, I forget the name.
I don't remember. But if you again search on Amazon, and I realize not everybody is keen in buying Amazon, but that's a different story. Anyway, you do a search, it'll come up. It'll come up.
[00:55:27] Speaker A: Okay. Fantastic.
[00:55:31] Speaker B: You might hear people say, oh, it's so easy. It took me 20 minutes. It does not.
And it will help. To have help by yourself is kind of. It's A little bit difficult.
If you have help, by all means, but it's not that hard either. It just may take you a little more than 20 minutes. That's a little bit of an overstatement. But in any case, it's thus far, I'm very happy with it.
It's worked very well. So we'll see.
[00:56:00] Speaker A: Yeah, that's great. That's great.
Fantastic. Well, Sergio, do you mind if we take a quick restroom break?
[00:56:07] Speaker B: Absolutely not.
[00:56:09] Speaker A: Okay. We are back and so I think where we left off. I wanted to ask you about your bonsai goals as that was something that we mentioned just a second ago.
Do you have any long term bonsai goals these days? Or what might those look like?
[00:56:27] Speaker B: Yeah, just.
Just keep working.
Very simple.
Yeah, I don't think there's much more to that. I just hope that I keep working in the. In the bonsai business, I guess I hope that, you know, I keep collaborating with clubs and.
And single practitioners, you know. So yeah, it's pretty simple. And obviously for me, you know, part of the goals is make sure that I keep up with my own work. I think my own work is very important. I don't think I want to get into ever a situation where I just kind of work for clients, whether it's clubs or whatever, and not have a collection.
Because being a creative, having a creative background, for me, that's an outlet, definitely I need the bonsai in order to. I need something to create with.
So that's very important for me.
So I.
With. With that being said, I also want to keep a manageable number of trees because having, you know, 500 trees but not moving forward is.
It's not for me, would not be a good thing either.
But I definitely want to pursue other creative ways of doing bonsai. But again, I hope that I can continue working in the bonsai business.
Basically.
[00:58:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I can see you needing a creative outlet. You seem like that type of individual, which is very much a compliment.
I. I'm wondering, do you.
In terms of purchasing new trees, are you always getting rid of something? Generally speaking, if you are going to make a new purchase or acquisition?
[00:58:32] Speaker B: For sure. That's a great question. Yeah. Yeah, I would say, I would say that usually the rule more or less, whenever I acquire a tree, one or two go out.
That's not always the case, truthfully. Sometimes I add one without one going. But usually I have to sell one or two trees in order to kind of upgrade to something that I may be more interested in.
So that's how I keep a manageable number of trees.
Again, I don't certainly have a large operation. I don't run a large operation here.
And I'm very, very careful about having too many things. But yeah, I would say that usually I get one and one or two go out the window.
[00:59:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:59:23] Speaker B: Or go out.
Yeah.
[00:59:25] Speaker A: You know, I was quite surprised recently, Sergio and I wanted to ask you about one tree in particular. So one tree. It's your. I think you call it, or I think it was named the Sentinel. And it's Yatsabusa elm, I believe. Court bark elm.
Yeah, absolutely love that tree. I think it is just such a high quality, such a great example of a court bark elm. And, but, but I was very surprised that I, I believe you sold it recently. Is that correct? And, and I was curious if you did, like, what led to that.
[01:00:04] Speaker B: Yeah, you know what? And I am surprised too.
Okay. Okay.
So a quick, quick history, because I would be remiss if, if I don't, if I don't mention, Ryan Neal, that that tree originally came from Mirai. At least, you know, you know, in, in it was less, much less developed, but the material came from Ryan Neal, who again set up the original material turning to like from a. I believe it was dug from a field.
It was a nursery. I believe they were growing trees in a field and they were going to the nursery. I don't know if it went, you know, down or down under or whatever. And they were going to build like. Or sold the land, basically.
And I think they were going to build apartment buildings. Anyway, I think Ryan Neal heard about this and with him and Randy and I, I believe they went and dug out some of these trees. Those trees were growing in the field for like 82 years.
[01:01:15] Speaker A: Wow.
[01:01:15] Speaker B: That's, that's, that's the story that I got straight from Ryan.
[01:01:19] Speaker A: And these are mu. Like mother stock plants, correct?
[01:01:22] Speaker B: Mother stock plant, correct. Yes. They were not. I don't believe that they were grown necessarily for bonsai, but I think for propagation purposes. But they might. You know, I don't know if they sold that original nursery, sold the air layer pieces as bonsai or for other purposes. I'm not sure about that. But anyway, so the, so Ryan, I think. I don't remember the number, but I think it was several trees that he dug with Randy Knight, and he certainly set them up for future success as bonsai.
So back in 2015, or 16, I think it was 16, I had asked. I actually was looking for a multi trunk. I remember this distinctly multi trunk conifer. And I said Let me reach out to Ryan and see what he has. And he said at the time, I'm sorry, Sergio, but I don't have anything that were you looking for, but I do have a Chinese album that you might be interested in. I'm like, I don't think so. I. I'm not into Chinese elms, you know.
No, thank you. He said to me, well, you might. Let me send you a picture because you might like this one. I said, okay, I'll take a look at it. So when he sent me the picture, I was like, oh, my God, the size of it.
And he already had set some of the structure of the tree. I was like, oh, my God. I said to him, okay, I'm listening.
So, long story short, I purchased. Ended up purchasing the tree from him.
And in the following next several, several years, I developed the tree, further refined it, built the canopy, whatever.
And back to your question. Regional question, Jeremiah. So last year, I exhibited that at the U.S. national in Rochester, New York.
[01:03:16] Speaker A: Yep.
[01:03:17] Speaker B: So, surprisingly to me, Kevin Blicky, who is a curator of Longwood Gardens, introduced himself to me, and he says, is that tree for sale?
My immediate response to Kevin was like, thank you for the interest, but no, it is not for sale. Yeah, well, some weeks pass by, and anyway, so basically, the reason why I sold this is sort of a couple reasons. One, the fact that they.
I don't know if folks know, but Longwood Gardens is privately sort of funded, so they have the buying power to purchase trees. So when Kevin said were interested in buying it, I was surprised because I always thought that a lot of these public collections all function the same way. You have to donate trees. And even then, even if you want to donate trees, that doesn't necessarily guarantee that they'll take the tree anyway. So he says, we're interested in buying it. Which was. I thought it was very interesting. So I really thought about it.
They made me an offer, basically just say that I couldn't refuse.
I was trying to finish my studio. So that really helped me pay for a lot of the things that I did in my studio, et cetera. So that was one reason, I have to admit, that I saw the tree. The other one was like, I'm very. Obviously, I'm very honored that a public collection of the caliber of Longwood Gardens owns. Has one of my trees. And also, another thing important to me is the fact that I think it has more value. That tree right now being seen by thousands of people that go across the Longwood Gardens, that being in a private garden, such as my garden.
Yeah, I miss it. I miss a tree every single day because that's why it's called the sentinel, because it was standing in the middle of my garden, and every time I looked at it, it almost looked like it was garden and looking over the entire garden. It had a very big physical presence that I miss in my garden. But, yeah, I'm very happy, obviously, that more people can appreciate that tree.
I saw it recently.
I went there for an event.
I worked there at an event in low gardens about a couple. Almost a couple months ago, and I saw the tree and it just looked outstanding in. In their. In their garden. So I'm very happy. I'm very happy with them. But I do miss that tree dearly. I really do.
[01:06:12] Speaker A: Got it.
Yeah. Oh, you know, I don't mean to rub salt in the wound, however, that tree was just. It had a presence. And I think often for deciduous trees to have such a presence, it's a rare thing. And I feel like that one really had a presence, and it is just a phenomenal, truly phenomenal tree. Loved it. And you also won the bonsaigers competition, correct? With that tree?
[01:06:45] Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes. I just made that Bonsaigers. And yeah, I was fortunate. Lucky enough to, you know, somehow got top. Top price, which was, I guess, in some ways was not surprising, but surprising at the same time because, you know, I never expect. I never really expected. I just submitted a tree and I'm like, I said, you know, that bonsai grass online competition is getting better and better every single year. There's some outstanding trees that I've submitted single year. And I was like, well, you know, let me just at least submit it and see what happens. And, yeah, so, yeah, so it did get first price last year.
But yeah, it's really one of a kind tree. I believe that. Ryan. I don't know if he still has it or he sold it.
There's a sister tree to that. It is designed differently in the way Ryan designed it.
Fantastic. I mean, absolutely beautiful. I don't know if you saw the pbe, the first pbe. He had it there.
[01:07:53] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:07:54] Speaker B: I never had the opportunity to see it in person, but I know it was an outstanding tree.
So that's a sister tree to mine, and there's other ones floating around, but I'm not sure of the same quality. I'm not sure. I could be wrong, but that one sticks out in my mind, the one that Ryan has or. Or had in his garden.
[01:08:15] Speaker A: Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. I do remember that tree being displayed around Alongside the best in show, Ponderosa, Randy's tree. And the display that Ryan did was. Was really well, really well done. I enjoyed that quite a bit. I wasn't sure if that was the sister tree or the. The same one, the Sentinel. I would love to see that tree now, see what it looks like. I haven't seen it since the pbe.
[01:08:43] Speaker B: Me too. Me too.
I've heard that I was sold, but you know how those things are.
I don't know.
I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
Next time, if I bump into.
Actually I'm going to be in Seattle in October and I think I'm going to pass by. I'm going to go down to Portland and visit Ryan and I may ask him, you know, if he still has a tree. I'd be curious to see what it looks like these days. But yeah, it's an awesome tree.
[01:09:18] Speaker A: So I wonder those.
Is it Yatsabusa elm? Is that the variety?
Those thicken very slowly, right? Or am I off here?
And you know, I'm not sure if you've had much or.
[01:09:33] Speaker B: I, you know, I would say probably one of the things that I kind of joke with people specifically about my tree. I said it's kind of like. I feel like it's a little bit like a skinny guy in a muscle suit. If you strip all the really quirky stuff. That tree was probably like half the thickness.
Maybe I'm exaggerating a little bit there,
[01:10:01] Speaker A: but I know that adds a lot.
[01:10:05] Speaker B: Yeah, it adds a lot of heft to the tree, which is. It's really, you know, the price of a mission for that tree. I mean, it's like that, that to see that tree in person with all that cork, it's. It's just.
It's just amazing. It really is crazy how, how much they bark up.
Yeah. And they're not. I believe out of all the Chinese elms, they're not super easy to find. The Yatsubusa variety, there's Hokkaido and there's other ones, Eiju and all that stuff, which are beautiful. But Yatsu busa is not so common. I don't believe.
[01:10:44] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it's interesting because I feel like when I first got into bonsai, I was not into cork bark elm for some reason, or elms in general.
But as I've gotten more and more into bonsai over the years, I've developed a really distinct taste for them. And yeah, it's actually.
So I have a cork bark elm variety. I'm not sure the exact variety But I got it from. Do you know John Kirby, student of Moon.
He.
He purchased a double trunk cork bark elm from the Fujimoto's who used to be in Bay Island Bonsai.
[01:11:25] Speaker B: Gotcha.
[01:11:26] Speaker A: RIP ROBERT Fujimoto. Incredible people.
Anyways, John Kirby ended up acquiring that cork bark elmet was one that I have loved for a very long time, really great double trunk tree. And I took some cuttings off his tree in a workshop. This was probably 10 years ago or so. And I've been developing those since I've been air layering, actually been airlaying pieces so that I can develop multi trunk cork bark elms.
And I've been trying like raft styles and, and a bunch of. I just want some different variety. But I really like them because they ramify well. They have great bark. There's no like pest and disease. Just don't seem to be a thing. They grow super vigorously and I just think that they, they're a great specific species for bonsai.
[01:12:19] Speaker B: They are. They really are. I'm with you. I never really pay much attention to the Chinese elms. I think there's a stigma attached to Chinese elms only because it comes from the, you know, the Mossai with the S shapes, all that stuff.
And you know, there's, there's definitely a stigma. But, but they can make outstanding. Outstanding at a high level as the best.
They make outstanding bonsai for sure. And especially if you get those barky ones. Oh man, they're.
Yeah, there's something, there's something at any size, whether it's shohin shoehin.
[01:12:56] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[01:12:57] Speaker B: Or bigger sizes than that.
They make out really outstanding. And one of the things that I really enjoyed about the Sentinel is that specific variety, the Yatsabusa, which I'm sure that happens with a lot of the Chinese animals. It got really bright yellow color in the fall.
Man, that was just something to behold at that size was something that I, I'm gonna miss forever.
But, but yeah, so, you know, okay,
[01:13:29] Speaker A: I, I want to get some cuttings. Yatsabusa. What's that? I want to get that variety. Yeah, yeah.
[01:13:35] Speaker B: Yatsubusa. I, I have a few connies from, from the Sentinel in a little area that I have.
I'm not sure what I'll do. Maybe I'll. I'm thinking about making them like really mammy, almost like really ramified tiny little trees. Because to grow something big is going to, you know, it's going to take me 100 years, so. And that, by the way, the Sentinel is close to being exactly 100 years old.
[01:14:04] Speaker A: Wow.
[01:14:05] Speaker B: So that's.
Yeah, yeah.
[01:14:07] Speaker A: That's historic tree.
[01:14:10] Speaker B: Yeah, it really.
Man, you know, the more I'm talking right now, I'm like, did I maybe. Maybe it's the biggest mistake of my life that I made here.
[01:14:23] Speaker A: That's a tough one. Yeah. It was such a great tree. I'm glad to see that it's in a very good collection. And so many people can see it, though. It, you know, almost feels like you didn't lose it completely. You can go visit anytime, which is great.
[01:14:40] Speaker B: Yes. That's a great point. Because when talking to Kevin, he was definitely also agreeable to the idea that if I wanted to calm down and kind of work on the tree, it would be fine.
It's about three hours from me, from where I am, so the tree is not far from me, so.
[01:14:59] Speaker A: Oh, that's great.
[01:15:00] Speaker B: And I'd rather give it, honestly, to.
To have it in the care of public collection, certainly. I think. I know Kevin is very, very talented, and I know he'll do great things with that tree rather than sell it to a private collector, so. But anyway.
[01:15:21] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, makes sense. Well, I hope. I hope they did pay you really well for it. It sounds like they did. That'd be tough to let go of.
[01:15:32] Speaker B: They did. They did. It was a very, very tough offer to turn down, and I was, you know, financial aid. I needed. I need a bit of help to. To get other things going. Such a. Such My studio. So it was not an easy. Easy, you know, thing to. To decide on, you know?
[01:15:51] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. Totally get it.
Well, thank you for talking to me about that tree and what a great tree. I guess. You know, another area that I feel like you are very talented in is with your rock plantings.
I'm super impressed with everything that you do, and I've seen you take some very.
What looks like humble material to me, and then you throw it on a rock, and it looks like a bonsai masterpiece. So, you know, I was curious if you might be able to walk us through your approach to creating one would love to know about selecting Roc and what goes into all of it.
[01:16:32] Speaker B: Sure, sure, sure.
So thank you. Thank you for that. Appreciate it. Yeah.
Every case is different. Right. So for selecting rocks, I would say one of my favorites are ibigawa stones. They're very heavy, they're expensive, but there's something beautiful about them. Not to say that there's not all the stones that work. Of course there are.
[01:16:55] Speaker A: Right.
[01:16:56] Speaker B: I would say the first thing. One of the main things for me in selecting Stones is. And that's why I like ibigawas. It's got that dark gray coloring to it, which doesn't fight visually with your tree. I think if you're selecting something like a rock that is very bright color, very light.
And I know there's exceptions for sure things that work really well with a brighter stone. But for me it's a little bit. Tends to be a little bit difficult for it to work well because then it starts to fight visually, the stone cause too much attention, etc. Etc.
But I would say that's one of my first considerations when choosing a stone.
Unfortunately, big O stones are not so easy to find.
And when they do, when you do, they tend to be a little bit more on the expensive side.
Certainly. I think when you choose a stone, it has to hold the tree right. I mean, that's pretty obvious.
I know that I have a beech that well. The one thing I would say about stone is like, you know, it's a great way to make poor material look a little more interesting.
You know, in a couple of situations where I had trees, one of them is a beech tree. It's kind of like a multi trunk tree.
[01:18:26] Speaker A: Love that tree. That is an incredible beach.
[01:18:30] Speaker B: Thank you. I almost threw it out because the main trunk had died. It was an air layer and the main trunk had died. I was left with these horizontal branches, side branches, and I didn't know what to do with it. I'm like, well, let's see if we can plant a rock and do something hopefully interesting. It worked out thankfully.
But what I had to do with that stone is I had to drill some holes because it had a cavity to hold the roots, but it did not have any kind of.
The water could not go anywhere because it was. It didn't have any sort of holes on the bottom basically to, to let you know, to drain the water. So I had to kind of do. Do a little bit of drilling.
The cavities were not just one single cavity, was several. So it was a little difficult to kind of sort of, you know, put the, you know, locate the roots right through all those cavities. I mean, it was a bit of a difficult kind of proposition that, that, that I got myself into. It worked out honestly. But, but I always say when I. When I show that tree to folks, I always say that when I first did it, I did not know whether it was going to live or die because there was a lot of stuff that I had to do in order to feed that, that tree into, into the stone. But the other one was a Kiyohime.
I'm not sure if you're familiar with that one, Jeremiah.
[01:20:04] Speaker A: I am, yes.
[01:20:05] Speaker B: And that one is on a Chinese ying stone, I think I believe it's called. And what I liked about that stone is that it has a very small neck and a heavy top, so that there's a visual tension that is created with that stone.
You know, the funny thing is, when I find stones, I don't come with an idea necessarily.
Basically, the stone kind of tells me what wants to be. What kind of tree wants to be paired with in a way.
So I don't, you know, my Kiyohime, which, again, not to get too much into it, that was my best shohin back in the day. And because I made a big mistake one year in overwintering, most of it died and just the main branch survived.
So what to do with that material, right? Do I throw it out? Do I sell it? Do I just give it to the neighbor, whatever? So I decided to kind of keep it or whatever.
But then I happened, just by chance to see Adam Jones, one of the. The two Americans now Beyond two that is working, has a nursery now in Japan, had that stone in his website a long time ago. And I saw it, I'm like, aha. So I kind of was able to put two and two together. I'm like, oh, yeah. I think that maybe this could be an interesting way to hopefully make something interesting out of this very poor material that I was left with. So that worked out well, too.
There's other things that I have not shown that were not so successful. I ended up hating them and out they go.
So not everything I've tried works, right?
We try a lot of things. We try a lot of things, and only maybe a portion of it ends up working. And then the last one that I did was this very tall. It's about.
I think about maybe 30, 32 inches tall stone that John Kulik, a European guy, very talented, bonsai professional, by the way, he does all these stones and slabs.
And I got this stone from Mirai, directly from Mirai, many years ago. I did not know what I wanted to do, and it sat in my garden for a long, long time. And then finally I got sort of like an idea. Okay, I'm gonna do something maybe a bit different with this.
If you have seen a lot of these stones, a lot of decompositions that are made are with these twisty junipers that basically take this stone. And I'm talking not a slab, right? I'm talking Like a vertical stone where the junipers sort of act like the branches and the stone itself acts like the trunk. That's sort of how it's sort of composed. And there's so many of them that I wanted to try something maybe a bit different, a little more vertical. Can I go out?
[01:23:16] Speaker A: Go out?
[01:23:16] Speaker B: What's that?
[01:23:19] Speaker A: So sorry. I thought I was muted.
My kids just ran in the room and they were wrestling. I apologize. I'm so sorry, Sergio.
[01:23:27] Speaker B: No worries. No worries at all. No worries. That's luck for you.
So I wanted to create something a little bit different, and I happened to see these, what they call tuja primo arborites. This actually, the thuja.
It's a variety of it, but it's super dwarf. It almost looks like.
It almost looks exactly like a dwarf hinoki, which I originally thought that's what they were, but it's not.
So they have this vertical kind of sort of growth habit. And I felt like that could work really, really well with this vertical stone. Right.
The only thing different that I did on this was to extend.
So the classic, or the traditional ishizuki composition is like the stone and the trees growing in the stone, but I wanted to extend the landscape into the pot itself. So that's one thing. And I'm sure somebody has done it. I don't pretend that this is. I'm the first one doing this. I just haven't seen it where you actually extend the landscape all the way down to the pot itself to create a more complete. Almost like a complete ecosystem, much like you see in nature.
So I was very happy with the results on that. And that's just the most recent rock composition that I did this year. And I'm happy to report that the trees are doing well. One great thing about that specific stone is that it is hollow inside.
So I was able to fill in the entire.
Basically the entirety of the stone with soil so that the trees could grow all the way down to the pot itself. So it's very sustainable composition. So, anyway. But, yeah, and I'm working now with a very talented artist by the name of Joe Camillo that he also does stones. And I'm collaborating with him to create some stuff for me. So. So we'll see. We'll see. But I am. Yeah.
[01:25:36] Speaker A: Interesting. I've never heard of Joe Camillo. Is he American?
[01:25:40] Speaker B: He's American, I believe.
I believe he's in Massachusetts, I believe. And just recently, just this year, I sort of stumbled on him, upon him, and he's got.
He's Got a, an Instagram account and I believe he's on Facebook as well.
And. But yeah, he does a lot of landscape design for folks, but also on the side he does his sort of stone works basically. And so I've been working with him.
Yeah. So anyway, and I love collaborating with people, you know, I like collaborating with other artists and all that good stuff.
[01:26:23] Speaker A: So.
[01:26:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:26:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
Well, I think your thuja, I mean all of your stone plantings that you've posted look absolutely stunning. Love them. The thuja in particular is really cool. It's a bit Kimura esque, which I mean that in a compliment. Kimura makes really awesome stone plantings like this.
[01:26:43] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:26:43] Speaker A: But I think you knocked it out of the park here and I love how it integrates with the Naka Watari pot that you used and your choice on the pot. And yeah, you did just such a good job on that.
[01:26:57] Speaker B: Thank you. That's actually a one part out of two or three part composition.
I have another stone that is going to complement. So let's just say that if I ever had to exhibit that, it's going to be at least two, if not three pieces all put together.
So they're not, I mean, they will be combined, but it's not like, I mean there will be separate pieces but, but all part of the same composition. So the second part is. Hopefully I will be able to do it in the spring of 27.
So. Yeah, so we'll see how that works out.
[01:27:36] Speaker A: That's rad. I can't wait.
Hope to see it then.
[01:27:42] Speaker B: I hope so too.
[01:27:45] Speaker A: And you know, I love to hear because, you know, I'm, I'm very inspired by your rock planting work. I feel like you do such a good job with it and it's nice to hear that maybe they don't all turn out because I feel like a lot of my stuff doesn't turn out. And so I like to hear that someone on your level even has things that don't work out. And I feel like you should just keep pushing forward, making lots of things and you'll figure out what works and what doesn't work.
So I appreciate you sharing that.
[01:28:18] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. And yes, absolutely. I would say that through my, through my adventures, there's a lot of failures.
A lot of failures. A lot of falling flat on my face, for sure. But you know, that's how it is. Any artistic.
[01:28:34] Speaker A: That's how we get better.
[01:28:36] Speaker B: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. That's how we get better. Yes.
[01:28:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
And Then I was thinking that the stone is so important in a rock planting. And I, you know, I was thinking, oh, well, it's 50, 50. It's the tree and the stone, which it is the tree and the stone. However, I feel like the rock is even more important in creating a good composition. And I almost feel like maybe what I'm hearing from you is, is you really start with the stone and then you figure it out from there.
And maybe not every single time, but I do feel like finding the. Finding a really good stone is. Is very challenging. But if you do like, it can create such a great composition and the stone is just so important, is a point that I'm trying to make.
[01:29:27] Speaker B: Absolutely, I agree with you, at least for me. I know everybody's different, of course, but for me it's finding the stone. I think when, when you find the right stone, you can start imagining things. Right, okay, so there. Maybe I have a tree or maybe I can find this type of tree, because the stone is sort of inspiring you a certain kind of thing, whether it's a landscape or whether it's a rocky outcrop or whatever the case may be. So the stone sort of starts kind of, you know, inspiring you to kind of. Or imagine things that. That that could be.
So at least for me has been like, okay, you know, like, I found this John Kulik stone. I saw it on the Mirai website, I decided to buy it, and I'm like, I don't know what I'm going to do with this thing, but I know I'm going to create something one day with this.
And then I saw the trees. I'm like, ah, yes, okay. I think that that's.
That may work well. Pretty, pretty well.
So, you know, so. And I'm glad, I'm glad it worked out again.
Obviously, obviously a big part of it is making sure that the trees do well, right? So you can create something that look beautiful, but it's sustainable. Can you keep the trees for a long time there?
Hopefully the answer is yes.
So, yeah, so we'll see.
Part of that challenge, I should mention in that specific composition, and I suspect that that's why not. You don't see that many where you extend the landscape all the way down to the bottom of the potties.
The challenge is that when you water that what happens is guess where the water goes all the way down and it puddles on the. Obviously in a pot has good drainage, but all the trees on the bottom get much more water than the ones on the top.
So thus Far I have not seen any issues. And one of the things about the thuja in general is that they can, even though it's a conifer, they, they're pretty happy with, you know, wetter sort of environments than, than drier, such in a pine, for example.
So in that sense I think it'll work out. I have not seen any kind of negative effects thus far on that composition, so I'm crossing my fingers, but that is one challenge. So when I have, you know, when I'm traveling, usually my wife, lovely wife, is the one keeping, keeping my trees alive. And I tell her, do not water the bottom, just water the top and let the gravity do, do the rest.
[01:32:11] Speaker A: You know, shout out to your wife for watering your trees. Mine does the same. The wife, wives are so important and that's great.
Yeah, sounds like maybe a good species for doing that type of composition. And also it's interesting like those little challenges like you just laid out with watering or things that might be hard to think about. I remember for a while I was really interested in the idea of creating a multi species forest planting.
[01:32:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:32:44] Speaker A: But I think that could also be challenging as your trees all have different watering requirements.
So if you put these different species together, one may prefer to be a lot more wet. And, and I, I feel like long term that can become a really big challenge where it may look great like right in the beginning when you set it up. But long term, will it work out? I don't know.
[01:33:08] Speaker B: And so, yeah, very, very difficult. Yeah, I agree with you and I absolutely love the, you know, multi species composition. And as you said, they may look beautiful at the beginning. But also an important factor here is the, is how sustainable is your creation? Right. So it's very difficult. I mean, I believe I saw it in Japan.
But like for example, if you do a pine with the, see, just maybe the pine is on the top, maybe in the way is planted on the rock. Maybe the rock has a, you know, you know, you planted the pine on the, on the top section of it, for example, and all the seeds are on the bottom. So that way you can probably figure out how to keep all the trees happy.
But that is difficult. I would say is difficult. A lot of, lot of clients bring, you know, have brought me that question. Hey, I want to create. I said be aware.
Great. But be aware that I don't know how sustainable that may be.
It may be a lot of problems for you not, not to dissuade anybody from trying it. Absolutely.
[01:34:24] Speaker A: Right.
[01:34:25] Speaker B: But, but yeah, be aware of that.
[01:34:27] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. Just know that the watering requirements are going to be different and you have to figure it out, otherwise it won't work out long term.
[01:34:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Also you're dealing with like how much.
How much light. Pines need a ton of light. Yeah, I think this. That's another important consideration, obviously. So, yeah, it creates a lot of problems. It really does. So, you know, I mean, I would love to create one because I love it. It's so natural looking. Right. You see in the mountains, you see pines growing, you know, with like oaks and stuff like that. But man, the reality of it in miniature is something else for sure.
[01:35:05] Speaker A: For sure. Great points.
Well, you know, Sergio, I was hoping to maybe ask you one more sec section and then I know that you are one of the headlining artists at the.
At Bonsai Central, so I was hoping to chat about that, but I guess if it's okay. You know, I've seen you do a decent amount of root grafting before, mostly on deciduous trees, I believe.
I was just curious your thoughts on root grafting. Have you been happy with the success that that has created? Has it met expectations?
Do you, do you find it to be worthwhile in root grafting or what does that look like for you?
[01:35:46] Speaker B: Yes, I would say I'm a big proponent of root grafting.
It is not designed.
And I mentioned this because more than a couple clients have brought me.
Nibaris are. Or root bases are really far gone. They're really.
And they say, oh, let's do some root grafting to fix it. There's no amount of root grafting that can fix a bad Nebari. Right.
So the only solution to in those cases would be air layering your tree.
Certainly I think if you're dealing with deciduous, particularly like maples. But aside from that, it is really great. I think when you, when you have a fairly decent Nebari to enhance to up the level, elevate the level basically of the quality of your root base. With root grafting thus far, my favorite method of doing the root graphs is two methods, right? You can do a thread bootcraft or an approach root graph. Thus far, I've done nothing but approach root graphs.
Have I been happy with it?
Yes. Overall, I would say yes.
But also, and I'm talking like I'm just really now zeroing in on Japanese maples because that's the most of the root graphs that I've done thus far.
You know, I have not done, to be honest, I have not done that on conifers, but on Japanese maples, I've done a lot now, for whatever reason. And I think it has to do more with the specific variety.
My Sharps Pygmy, which I only have one. Well, I have a couple small ones, but I have a bigger one.
For whatever reason that that tree does not want to play nice with me, it out of the all the root graphs that I've done, maybe only about 5% of them have worked out. In fact, I have one now on that tree that worked out and I'm super happy, but for the most part has not. Now, I've done a lot with tridents. Tridents almost. I would say probably close to 95% success rate on tridents.
On regular Japanese maples, the green variety, I would say also very close to like 90, 95% success rate with root graphs on Arakawa, also a high rate of success with that as well.
So I would say that it is worth investing time in practicing, in learning how to do it, because it can really help when you have, for example, just an ugly, you know, annoying gap in your navari that you want to kind of say, okay, I wish I had a root here. It is just such a great way to add roots where you don't have them. So for me, I would say 100%. I love. I love root grafting.
[01:39:02] Speaker A: Fantastic.
I really appreciate that feedback. And I do see how if you have fairly nice Nebari, however, you're missing in a certain area how a root graft can absolutely enhance your Nabari.
And I think it's a really interesting point that you brought up about the Sharps Pygmy in particular.
One thing I wonder is within Japanese bonsai, they have sort of selected these varieties of Japanese maples that.
That are acceptable within the bonsai community that they use all the time. You know, like the Shojo, I hear about, I believe, regular standard green Arakawa.
What am I forgetting?
[01:39:46] Speaker B: You have Kotohime Kiyohime, right, Katsura. Yeah.
[01:39:52] Speaker A: I wonder if they have selected those just through experience. And some of the other varieties have just not worked out because of things like that or what the reason is. You know, I'm sure a lot of it has to do with ramification, how well they ramify, but how well do they do in pot culture long term?
I feel like they have selected out these varieties and you see ones that you commonly see in Kokufu and then others you just don't see. Like you see. I mean. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
[01:40:27] Speaker B: Yeah, that's an interesting point there, Jeremiah. I would say that you're probably 100%, right?
I would think so.
Out of trial and error through hundreds of years, they say, oh, you know, the Shoujo works well.
Kiyohime has worked well. Other ones have not.
I always advise my clients to when they're working because, you know, you know, that's the beauty of Japanese maples, right? You have hundreds of varieties and they're all. They. They call them all kinds of names just to sell them, I guess, you know, Rainbow this and Rainbow that and butterfly this. And, you know, they're all kinds of marketing ploys here. But anyway. But they're beautiful. Some of them are beautiful. But I do say, listen, I understand that, that, you know, especially when. When they're beginning in their bonsai journey, they want to have all kinds of varieties of Japanese maples. I said, be careful.
Are you. Do you want to be. Here's a question. Do you want to be a plant collector or do you want to be a bonsai practitioner? They're two different things.
Because if you want to be a bonsai practitioner, be careful what kind of cultivars you choose. I had a client just recently that brought a Mikawa Yatsubusa. They're very common. I personally don't like them.
I don't like the way the tree stacks the leaves.
I don't like the aesthetics of the tree. But anyway. But it's popular.
It is under the bucket of Yatsubusa, the dwarf varieties or whatever. And the Nebari was terrible. I said, look, we can do an air layer on this, but I cannot guarantee you success because these fancy varieties, they don't really play nice with you in terms of bonsai. You have to be really careful. So the tried and true, much like you mentioned the Cotohimes, the Kiyohimes, Deshoyos, Katuras, all that stuff, they work well because we know their past history. But there are some new varieties also that are questionable.
Shishigashir is another one that works very well, or at least for me, has worked well, although extremely slow in development, but it has worked well. So, yeah, I think that I would say for those listening, for those people that are kind of starting out, for those that are like, really like Japanese maples, great.
Be aware that not all these fancy varieties are going to do.
They're going to end up being very frustrating in developing them as bonsai.
So I will just say that.
[01:43:08] Speaker A: Ah, that's such a great point.
[01:43:10] Speaker B: I'm glad you bring that up.
[01:43:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[01:43:13] Speaker B: I would say probably just stick with the true and try, you know, there's some beautiful ones. The Shoyo is a beautiful one that works really well. Chinda Shoyo is another one similar. It works really well.
I would say to those listeners that want to start with deciduous Japanese maples, the best one to start with is the straight isopalmato. That is the most vigorous and that's the one that is going to give you the less problems in the long run, at least to get you started.
[01:43:42] Speaker A: Totally.
That's the variety I keep coming back to too. You know, like, I always appreciate just the standard green acid palmatum. It's such a great, great tree. And, you know, like, sometime down the road there may be some fungal issue or something. Your tree just, I don't know, has a hiccup. And it's nice to have a tree that that is. Is more hearty. And I just playing around with the, all the, the fancy varieties can just be very challenging and frustrating horticulturally. So I love your advice, especially for newer individuals in bonsai, like, it just might not be worth it.
[01:44:26] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. It is. And I mean my, my Sharps pick me one thing that.
And that's an American.
That's an American actually cultivar. That's James Sharp, you know, came, you know, discovered that I think in. Back in the 1970s, I believe. Anyway, so what I discovered with that tree, at least in my experience, other, other professionals may have a different experience with Sharps. I've noticed that every time I repot and if I go a little too aggressive with the, with the core of the root ball, like if I cut some, maybe some thicker roots, I have lost almost invariably a main branch here or there, which I've learned to kind of ease up.
Maybe it's because it's an older tree, perhaps, maybe younger ones. I'm sure there is different when you're dealing with an older tree, and that's probably, that's probably applicable to, to a lot of, you know, older bonsai. You got to be careful with the, with the actual, the core of the root ball and be a little more respectful of it rather than just go at it as if you're doing like a, like a much younger tree. But in any case, I found that very interesting with the Sharps. I have not had that experience, however, with like my other maples.
You know, I cut back roots and no problem whatsoever, but that one gives me issues. So again, going back to the thing, just, just be a little mindful, be careful with the, with kind of the cultivars that, that you choose to, to keep in your Garden.
[01:46:11] Speaker A: For sure. For sure.
Yeah. Great advice. Really appreciate you highlighting that, Sergio.
[01:46:19] Speaker B: Of course.
Sweet.
[01:46:22] Speaker A: Well, you know, I wanted to talk to you. I know. In next year, let's see. I think it's May 14th through the 16th, 2027.
You are going to be one of the highlighted artists at Bonsai Central.
[01:46:40] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:46:40] Speaker A: And so yourself, I know Jonas, Carmen, Andrew Robson and Tyler Sherrod are all going to be there.
I am really excited about this exhibit and Bonsai Central in general, I guess.
I think it's really cool that we have these regional shows that are coming up and I really want to get behind any of them that I feel like are doing a really good job. I guess I'm curious from your perspective, why do you feel like these regional exhibits are so good for American Bonsai?
[01:47:20] Speaker B: Well, I would say again, I think it's a great thing, right?
It's a big country. It's a big country. And just the logistics of it. Look, I would love to participate on the PBE for example, but unfortunately, at least right now, it is not something that is doable.
This type of regional, more regional shows allow, I guess, more folks that are more, in this case, Bonsai Central is more central, right.
To allow those people in those regions, more centralized regions to participate in a higher end exhibit. And I know that Bon Central, I've heard nothing but great things about them.
I was actually, Jesse Gilbertson was the one that actually mentioned that to me a few years ago. Unfortunately, my schedule did not allow for me to participate. I'm glad that they remember me and they call me for next year. So I'm very thankful that I can be part of it. But I do think that it's important for this, for these sort of regional shows to be popping up everywhere. Gives people more visibility into the art form. Basically. Even though you're not a practitioner or an exhibitor yourself, people gives people more awareness, right? It heightens the awareness of bonsai. Not, you know, through the US and again, we have a huge country.
So it used to be, you know, the US national in Rochester and then you have a whole bunch of little ones throughout the United States. But it was little, little, little regional shows. But now there's these major shows like PBE popped up and now Bonsai Central, there's, you know, they have one and I forget the name down in Florida that I participated earlier this year. So, you know, and of course, well, in the case of the Florida ones, of course that allows people. And now, by the way, the one in the Tropical, in the US Tropical in the Houston allows those people that grow different type of trees, like the Tropicals, have an opportunity to have their trees sort of shown. So anyway, but yeah, all to say that I'm thrilled to. To be an honor to be part of Bonsai Central next.
Next. Next year.
[01:49:59] Speaker A: Yeah, well, yeah, I feel like these regional shows just give. Give us all something to strive towards and it's just pushing the bar. Pushing the level of American bonsai up, and that's what I'm all about. So, like, I'm. I am definitely into supporting these shows and I'm so excited to check out Bonsai Central this time.
Yeah, the. The exhibit. I. So I did not see it last time around. However, it looked like it was very well done, like really good, high quality trees.
Adair.
Adair Zelkova won best in show, I believe, which. Ah, man, that is a killer.
[01:50:40] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Yes.
[01:50:41] Speaker A: I remember seeing it.
[01:50:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:50:44] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:50:44] Speaker B: That's a long history. It was in Koko Fu at one point and then somehow ended up here in the United States. Yeah. Yeah, that. That's a. That's a stunning. So called by. Yes.
[01:50:54] Speaker A: Yeah. I remember seeing it at the national show and I. I was like, this tree absolutely should have won an award. I was very surprised that it didn't win an award. I can't remember what year that was, but that was.
[01:51:06] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. I. Yeah, you're close. 2021. 2021.
[01:51:11] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:51:11] Speaker B: 2020 was Covid. 2021. I believe that even. Even through the COVID I. I believe that. Yeah, I believe that was 2021.
[01:51:22] Speaker A: Yes. Well, I think it was. I think Steve owned it prior to Adair, if I'm remembering correctly.
[01:51:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:51:37] Speaker A: Great guy. Great guy. So is Adair. Love Adair. I got to know Adair through Bay Island Bonsai back in the day and. But anyways, his Zelkova is absolutely phenomenal. Like, probably the best. I mean, it is the best Zelkova broom that I've seen in the United States by far.
[01:51:54] Speaker B: Hands down. Absolutely. Hands down. Yeah.
[01:51:57] Speaker A: Yeah. And should have won an award at the national show, but it won an award. It won Bonsai Central, so.
Fantastic. Fantastic tree. I believe they are doing $7500 in prizes this year for awards, which is pretty awesome.
[01:52:14] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:52:14] Speaker A: That's like some significant cash right there. I saw $2,500 is best in show. Like, that's quite significant right there. So I think. I think that's pretty rad.
[01:52:26] Speaker B: Yeah, that is amazing.
[01:52:28] Speaker A: Can you tell me a little bit about what your role is within.
Within Bonsai? Central this year. Have they talked to you about much yet?
[01:52:37] Speaker B: To a degree, yes, because I think they send us the schedule. But there's a few things, a few things that they were expected to be part of.
One of them are, I believe, a few workshops. Right. I think some of them have taken different kind of workshops. I know. I believe I'm doing an Arakawa workshop. Other ones, which I'm excited about. And it looks like the material is really quite good, which is great.
The other thing is we're going to be part of a panel. I'm not sure. I guess we're going to sit there and we're just going to. They're going to throw us questions. I'm guessing that's how this is going to be set up. I've never been part of it, so I don't know exactly, but I'm guessing. And the other thing is, I think we're expected to judge this show or at least give some kind of critique of the displays. So I'm looking forward to that as well.
[01:53:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah. I.
So they actually emailed over the workshop material and I got to take a look at some of it and I'm like, just absolutely blown away.
I don't know how. How they got such good, high quality material. Like, I feel like it doesn't exist. And then yet for some reason they have like the best. It sounds probably the. Yeah. The best workshop material I've seen.
They.
They sent me pictures. I know Andrew is doing a ginkgo clump workshop and the material looks phenomenal in all this. Tyler's doing a needle juniper workshop, which is. You don't see needle junipers all that often, but the ones they got are really nice.
[01:54:12] Speaker B: Yeah. How do they get all of that?
[01:54:15] Speaker A: I have no idea.
Yeah. And then like your Arakawa maples, they're all air layered Arakawa maples, which. How did get that?
[01:54:23] Speaker B: Who.
[01:54:24] Speaker A: Who has that many Arakawa air layers?
[01:54:27] Speaker B: Who knew? Right? Who knew? I mean, I want to know.
[01:54:31] Speaker A: Seriously.
[01:54:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[01:54:33] Speaker A: Shoot. I wish I could join your workshop. It's. I'm sure it's going to get booked up very quick. But there's also Hornbeam workshop, a short leaf pine, a black pine workshop, I believe with Jonas, and a twisted juniper workshop with Carmen.
[01:54:49] Speaker B: Okay. But yeah, I'm looking forward to it. For sure. For sure. I want to see.
I'm interested to see the displays.
I feel that.
Again, you just mentioned this a moment ago. I think the quality, the quality of the US Bonsai has just exponentially just gotten so much so much better than we were just even a few years ago. Which is. Which is exactly what we should be doing. Right.
I mean, you got the European shows, which are. Some of them are just absolutely stunning.
So we hope to be at that level at some point.
[01:55:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:55:33] Speaker B: And we're getting close. I think we're getting close.
[01:55:36] Speaker A: I think you bring up an interesting point. So I saw the recent European shows, and, I mean, just images of them through social media and, like, I'm very impressed. Like, they do such a good job in some of those shows, like the Trophy ube. I think there's one in Spain. I forget all the names of them.
[01:55:58] Speaker B: Exactly, but phenomenal. Yes. Yeah.
[01:56:01] Speaker A: I just see just such incredible trees. And I think lately I. I've been feeling like, a sense and this, I don't know, might come out wrong incorrectly, but hopefully you can understand what I'm trying to get at. I. I feel like a very big sense of pride for American bonsai, and I really feel like we need to get together and raise the bar and raise the level. And, like, I feel like we have all these different styles and aesthetics within American bonsai. And I think that's great. And I think we all can do our part, raise the level. And I want us to compete with Europe, European bonsai, and those European shows.
[01:56:48] Speaker B: No, I completely agree. And yes, I also will say that I'm incredibly proud of what the US Is doing these days. I mean, we were like, way back in the day, and now we're risen to a level that is, you know, impressive. Impressive in some cases, for sure.
You know, so I think part of. Part of the U.S.
you know, I guess setting aside, you know, the collective conifers and stuff like that, which bring incredible age and character, but I think we need more time. When you're talking about deciduous. Right. That's. I think we're lacking. And part of it is not because of a lack of interest or a lack of talent or ability. I think it's just also part of the fact that we need to let our trees get some age. I mean, you know what I mean? Some of these trees, I mean, in Japan, you know, maples, 80, 90, 125 years old. I mean, you know, whereas we were much younger than that.
But we're getting there. We are getting there for sure. And our level or level of engagement and skill has just gone way up. And again, I gotta think the professionals like Ryan Neal, Michael Hagener, Peter T. Boone, all those guys, I mean, they've really helped us show what the bar is and what we can do with bonsai.
I do think, if you ask me my opinion, I think where we're maybe lacking, and this may be my own, obviously my own humble opinion is in the display area for sure. I think, I feel like, yes, it is very important to pay attention to the tree. Obviously that is your main character in your story. Right. That's the first thing that you should see is your tree. Absolutely. But when you're displaying, it is a totality of the story that you're telling, not just, hey, I have an awesome tree. Look at this thing.
Maybe I'm not going to care too much about the way I think about my display.
Whereas in other cases, what I've seen is like trying to be very, very creative with your display. And they put all kinds of stuff in your display. And I always say, you know, when in doubt, go simple. Simplicity goes a long way. And tell a unique.
Not only a unique, but a single story rather than having all these elements and not knowing what sort of your story is being told. So that's where I think we're kind of lacking in. Again, in my experience, traveling now through the U.S. that's where I think we. We need to kind of pay a little more attention to.
But, but, anyway, but, yeah, but certainly I think our level has gone so, so up.
[02:00:08] Speaker A: You know, couldn't agree with you more regarding lacking in display. But you know, what helps with getting better at display is these regional shows.
Like, you know.
[02:00:20] Speaker B: Yes.
[02:00:21] Speaker A: Without these shows, there wasn't really a reason for us to put so much effort into the display portion. And so now hopefully we can support those stand makers and, you know, accent learning how to, how to display better, putting money into nice scrolls and, and figurines or whatever, you know, I think whatever. Yeah.
[02:00:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[02:00:48] Speaker A: Fantastic.
Well, yeah, getting back to bonsai Central, like, I'm super excited. They have a bunch of really cool demos, roundtable discussions. There's the workshops, like we mentioned the exhibit. I think it's really great that they're following a similar model to PBE where they're doing a jury and then they're also judging. I know that they're going to have awesome food trucks there. They're going to have an awards banquet with cash prizes, which is really fantastic. They're doing.
I thought it was really cool. They're doing shopping with the professionals. So I think you. I'm not sure if you remember, but you're leading a shopping trip with Sergio, which I think is like a really cool experience.
[02:01:31] Speaker B: I think so too. I was when I Read that. I'm like, huh, that was interesting, because I never heard of that.
But, you know, and again, I've never been part. I don't know if this is a new thing for bonsai central or if they've done this in the past, but I would be curious to see how that.
Yeah. So I'm guessing it's like they'll come shopping and they'll. They'll. They'll ask me, do you think this tree is worth buying? Or whatever. And I may. May help them with that. Hopefully be able to help. Be helpful in. In their decision.
[02:02:04] Speaker A: That is like a really good idea. And in fact, anytime I make a major acquisition or. Or am considering a major purchase, I always ask my teacher still for feedback. I want to get his opinion on. On everything. And so I think just being able to receive the feedback from bonsai professionals when you're in the shopping area, like, that's. That's great.
[02:02:26] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's an interesting, interesting idea for sure.
Yeah. So that should be fun.
[02:02:33] Speaker A: Awesome.
Well, Sergio, I. It's a labor. We're recording this labor day weekend right now, and I gotta get back with the fam. We're gonna head up to the lake. We're gonna do some paddle boarding, which I'm really.
[02:02:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It sounds like fun.
[02:02:50] Speaker A: But I, you know, I wanted to sincerely thank you for your time and I wanted to say that I. I really enjoyed this conversation and I. I have the utmost respect for your bonsai practice and just you as an individual, as an artist.
And I think that going back to the point that we made regarding raising the bar in U. S. Bonsai, I think that you are.
Have been and will continue to play just a major role in raising the bar within the United States. And so it. It's really an honor to get to. To talk with you, spend some time. I've really enjoyed our conversation. I hope maybe someday down the road we could do this again.
And just wanted to thank you so much.
[02:03:35] Speaker B: Yeah, no, thank you. Thank you to you as well, Jeremiah. Again, thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure talking to you. This was a lot of fun.
And again, you're doing some fantastic, fantastic work. So all respect to you, my friend, as well.
And continue doing what you're doing.
You know, you're doing some just stunning work.
Truly, truly. So.
And I hope to catch you in, if anything, on bonsign central, hopefully to see you in person there.
[02:04:10] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. And actually, are you going to be at pbe?
Well, so, like a maybe. It's a maybe at this point.
[02:04:19] Speaker B: Here's the thing.
I'll say this very quickly. I am tossing the idea between going to UBE in Madrid or going to pbe. I cannot do both.
So both are really tugging at me and I have not made a decision yet.
But you will see me in one or the other.
I'm crossing my finger, but if I don't make PBE this coming year in January, Right. Or February, I should say it will definitely be in a future occasion because I mean, I talked to Andrew Robson about it and I gave him such. I told him kudos to you, Jonas and Eric for putting such an amazing job as, you know, show all that stuff.
So I would love to see it, needless to say. But yeah, so maybe I will see you at pbe, Jeremiah. Yeah.
[02:05:19] Speaker A: Okay. Well, selfishly I'm hoping you come to PVE just so I can hang with you for a minute. But either way, incredible experience, so I totally get it and thank you so much again, Sergio.
It.
